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  • FIRST POST
    • tg99
    • By tg99 2nd Nov 17, 3:49 PM
    • 524Posts
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    tg99
    Claiming Share Loss Relief In Self Assessment Return
    • #1
    • 2nd Nov 17, 3:49 PM
    Claiming Share Loss Relief In Self Assessment Return 2nd Nov 17 at 3:49 PM
    Am looking to claim share loss relief against 15-16 income in my 16-17 tax return. Having input the amount in the 'losses against income - amount claimed against 2015- 16 income' box in the unlisted shares part of the capital gains section, I had thought this would generate the tax relief payment figure in the overall tax return calculation section but nothing has changed.

    Later on in the return there is a section Adjustments to Tax Due with one of the boxes called 'decrease in tax due because of adjustments to an earlier year' so I tried putting in there what the figure should be but it won't let me as the error message below comes up:

    "You cannot enter an amount for 'Decrease in tax due because of adjustments to an earlier year' since your return does not contain any adjustments which would effect the tax due for a previous year, Please amend."

    Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong ? Thanks
Page 1
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 2nd Nov 17, 9:42 PM
    • 1,861 Posts
    • 829 Thanks
    Dazed and confused
    • #2
    • 2nd Nov 17, 9:42 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Nov 17, 9:42 PM
    What makes you think you can carry the capital gains loss back to get relief in an earlier year?
    • tg99
    • By tg99 2nd Nov 17, 9:54 PM
    • 524 Posts
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    tg99
    • #3
    • 2nd Nov 17, 9:54 PM
    • #3
    • 2nd Nov 17, 9:54 PM
    What makes you think you can carry the capital gains loss back to get relief in an earlier year?
    Originally posted by Dazed and confused
    It's an EIS company - you are allowed to claim losses against income in the current or previous tax year.
    • jimmo
    • By jimmo 3rd Nov 17, 11:00 PM
    • 1,887 Posts
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    jimmo
    • #4
    • 3rd Nov 17, 11:00 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Nov 17, 11:00 PM
    The form filling side of things was never my forte (other people used to look after that before the computer took over) and its more than 10 years since I retired but it would be helpful to know exactly which boxes you have completed on form SA108 and how the figures entered have been arrived at.
    If I have understood you correctly you are making an NVC now specifying a date within 2016/17. That then creates the revived gain you mentioned in an earlier thread which needs to be included in box 34 and a loss which needs to be entered in box 35.
    Then the loss which you wish to set against 2015/16 income needs to be entered in box in box 43.
    If you have not already done that please give it a try and see what happens. I don't believe the system will calculate the 2015/16 overpayment at this stage because nothing you do on-line has effect until you actually submit it. If you can get past the error messages that will be something. Unless, of course, someone with more recent experience than mine, chips in.
    • tg99
    • By tg99 4th Nov 17, 12:06 AM
    • 524 Posts
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    tg99
    • #5
    • 4th Nov 17, 12:06 AM
    • #5
    • 4th Nov 17, 12:06 AM
    Thanks for your reply. From memory I filled it out broadly in line with what you have said but will check exact box numbers and figures etc and report back tomorrow.
    • tg99
    • By tg99 4th Nov 17, 7:29 PM
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    tg99
    • #6
    • 4th Nov 17, 7:29 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Nov 17, 7:29 PM
    Investment amount was £744 in EIS share that failed so proceeds £0. EIS income tax relief 30% so £223. Hence allowable loss I can claim is £521.

    So in unlisted shares and securities section box 31 is 1 disposal, 32 disposal proceeds is zero, 33 allowable costs is £744 (wasn’t sure if £744 or £521 here but found that had no impact on the calculation as the calculation is not reducing my capital gains bill accordingly...which is correct as obviously cannot claim this loss against capital gains if I am choosing to use it against income). Box 36 elected NVC claim. 43 loss claimed against 1516 income I have put £744 as the next box 44 says amount in 43 to which EIS relief is attributable hence I put the income tax relief given of £223 in 44 as I was thinking the system would thus deduct the £223 from the £744 to calculate the allowable loss. But not entirely sure this is right.

    The revived gains I have reported not in 34 and 35 but in the listed section as the gain invested in the EIS company was from sale of listed shares.

    The error message I mentioned earlier is just in relation to if I try and enter the figure I think I am owed in the adjustments section as I tried this when nothing happened automatically within the end of return calculation section having completed the capital gains section.

    Also, re your point about no overpayment being generated at this stage until I actually submit it, I was thinking it would work in similar way to when you claim other reliefs, e.g. when I subscribed to EIS, VCT etc the calculation section recognises I have filled these numbers out in the relevant section and this calculates 30% income tax relief due and thus incorporates into the end of tax return calculation hence generating the overpayment figure. I then submit the return and receive the payment a week or so later.
    • tg99
    • By tg99 10th Nov 17, 3:41 PM
    • 524 Posts
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    tg99
    • #7
    • 10th Nov 17, 3:41 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Nov 17, 3:41 PM
    Follow up: what I noticed when I looked at my 15-16 return was that the end of the capital gains section is slightly different to that in 16-17 in that it has a ‘summary of computations’ section with a summary of losses used against income...here if I enter in the allowable loss into the losses to be used against 15-16 income box then the overall calculation correctly deducts this as income tax relief on the overall income on which tax is due. Spoke to technician at HMRC who confirmed that yes I should indeed amend my 15-16 return to enter my loss here corresponding to the NVC made in 16-17 return given I want to carry back the loss to 15-16. He thought that there was currently a general issue / error with 16-17 capital gains section of the online return this year hence why I couldn’t get the loss relief claim to appear in the 16-17 return calculation.
    • purdyoaten2
    • By purdyoaten2 10th Nov 17, 4:49 PM
    • 711 Posts
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    purdyoaten2
    • #8
    • 10th Nov 17, 4:49 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Nov 17, 4:49 PM
    Follow up: what I noticed when I looked at my 15-16 return was that the end of the capital gains section is slightly different to that in 16-17 in that it has a ‘summary of computations’ section with a summary of losses used against income...here if I enter in the allowable loss into the losses to be used against 15-16 income box then the overall calculation correctly deducts this as income tax relief on the overall income on which tax is due. Spoke to technician at HMRC who confirmed that yes I should indeed amend my 15-16 return to enter my loss here corresponding to the NVC made in 16-17 return given I want to carry back the loss to 15-16. He thought that there was currently a general issue / error with 16-17 capital gains section of the online return this year hence why I couldn’t get the loss relief claim to appear in the 16-17 return calculation.
    Originally posted by tg99
    Wow - things must have changed! It used to be the case that the relief was given as a 'stand alone claim' - is this no longer the case?

    Obviously, as has been said, the tax relief will not be reflected in the 2015/16 calculation. The mechanism in my day (perhaps still the case?) would have been detailed in the additional information box as follows:

    Per Capital Gains pages - allowable loss £521 to be set against 2015/16 tax year. Relief due £521 at (tax rate) = £xxx.xx

    This amount would then be credited to your self-assessment account. This was also the case with trading losses carried back.

    From my edits below I believe that this IS the correct way to do it - ignore the advice given by HMRC in this regard.

    One absolutely NEVER NEVER EVER amended an earlier year return

    Edit - it is still done like this for trading losses:

    Put the loss to be carry back to a previous year
    in box 79, and give us the details of the amount
    claimed for each year in box 103 ‘Any other
    information’.


    Further edit - I believe that I was correct: see below:

    If you make an allowable loss in 2016 to 2017 you can claim the relief for 2016 to 2017 or 2015 to 2016 or both. You can make those claims as follows:

    2016 to 2017 You can claim the relief by making an entry in box 41 on page CG 2 of the SA108 Capital Gains Tax summary pages.
    You must also include the capital losses that are the subject of your claim in box 35 on page CG 2 and give details of the capital losses on page CG 3 in the ‘Any other information’ box, box 54 or in your computations.
    2015 to 2016 You can claim the relief by making an entry in box 43 on page CG2 of the SA108 Capital Gains Tax summary pages. You must also include the capital losses that are the subject of your claim in box 35 on page CG 2 and give details of the capital losses in the ‘Any other information’ box, box54, on page CG 3 of the SA108 or in your computations.
    Any relief due for 2015 to 2016 will be given as an adjustment to the amount of tax for 2016 to 2017.


    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/negligible-value-claims-and-income-tax-losses-on-disposals-of-shares-you-have-subscribed-for-in-qualifying-trading-companies-hs286-self-assessment-he/negligible-value-claims-and-income-tax-losses-on-disposals-of-shares-you-have-subscribed-for-in-qualifying-trading-companies-hs286-self-assessment-he--2

    I know jimmo is ex HMRC and so am I. He is absolutely correct when he says that it is one thing knowing the legislation but an entirely different matter in knowing how to complete the forms.
    Last edited by purdyoaten2; 10-11-2017 at 5:12 PM.
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    • jimmo
    • By jimmo 10th Nov 17, 11:01 PM
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    jimmo
    • #9
    • 10th Nov 17, 11:01 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Nov 17, 11:01 PM
    Still not too many takers on this thread, just a couple of old fogies (sorry po2 but I'm pretty sure you said you'd retired a while back).

    As we've both said, the principles and law haven't changed since I retired but the form filling procedures have. As regards submitting your Return online there have been quite a number of threads on here in recent years where people have been puzzled by the amount of tax they think the system is demanding. A very common answer is that before a Return is actually submitted your computer screen shows the liability for the year and, in particular, that calculation does not take notice of any payments on account already made. It takes at least 24 hours after actual submission for the system to tell you what you really owe. Hence my logic is that the HMRC system will not calculate the relief due from setting the loss against earlier years income until after you submit the Return.
    In the continuing absence of posters with up to date experience I suggest you give it a go. If it doesn't work there is plenty of time to think again and amend your Return.
    Otherwise, if memory serves me correctly, you said that there is a proposal to dissolve the company this month. So you are now playing with fire. If HMRC don't receive your Return, or a stand alone claim by post, before the company is dissolved, you will have lost your opportunity to claim.
    • tg99
    • By tg99 10th Nov 17, 11:55 PM
    • 524 Posts
    • 222 Thanks
    tg99
    Thank you both for your replies.

    First of all, Jimmo re your final comment, it made me realise I should have mentioned one important point - as per my previous post re the NVC, because I anticipated it shortly becoming dissolved then I did not want to risk not putting in the NVC in time so I have already actually submitted the 16-17 return with the NVC and the figures noted above in the various boxes. This was I think a couple of weeks ago but there has been no change to my tax liability or repayment or credit generated.

    Hence having done some further reading / investigation it then occurred to me that I maybe needed to put the figure as a tax adjustment too in 16-17 return (the help box for this part does say about using capital losses against income as one of the few scenarios where it would be appropriate to fill in this tax adjustment figure) - but when I was playing around with making an amendment to the return to do this I was getting the error message noted above hence couldn’t do so and therefore also decided it was worth phoning HMRC as well as posting again on here as I could not find anything specific in the manuals.

    The technician I spoke to at HMRC informed me that I could amend the 15-16 return as per my previous post just like I would say amend it say when receiving an EIS certificate for a different investment in 16-17 that I wanted to carry back to 15-16 to get the 30% income tax relief. He was pretty adamant this is entirely appropriate and did seem to have decent knowledge around the subject.

    PO2 - re your point about putting the figure in the additional info box, can I ask how HMRC would then know to give me the tax credit / repayment as what would trigger them to manually read the additional info white boxes in my tax return (ie I’m presuming HMRC does not read these for every single tax payer who submits a SA return)? Or is it a case I would have to follow up with a phone call or letter to make sure they picked up this claim from my return?

    Thanks.
    • purdyoaten2
    • By purdyoaten2 11th Nov 17, 8:28 AM
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    purdyoaten2
    Thank you both for your replies.

    First of all, Jimmo re your final comment, it made me realise I should have mentioned one important point - as per my previous post re the NVC, because I anticipated it shortly becoming dissolved then I did not want to risk not putting in the NVC in time so I have already actually submitted the 16-17 return with the NVC and the figures noted above in the various boxes. This was I think a couple of weeks ago but there has been no change to my tax liability or repayment or credit generated.

    Hence having done some further reading / investigation it then occurred to me that I maybe needed to put the figure as a tax adjustment too in 16-17 return (the help box for this part does say about using capital losses against income as one of the few scenarios where it would be appropriate to fill in this tax adjustment figure) - but when I was playing around with making an amendment to the return to do this I was getting the error message noted above hence couldn’t do so and therefore also decided it was worth phoning HMRC as well as posting again on here as I could not find anything specific in the manuals.

    The technician I spoke to at HMRC informed me that I could amend the 15-16 return as per my previous post just like I would say amend it say when receiving an EIS certificate for a different investment in 16-17 that I wanted to carry back to 15-16 to get the 30% income tax relief. He was pretty adamant this is entirely appropriate and did seem to have decent knowledge around the subject.

    PO2 - re your point about putting the figure in the additional info box, can I ask how HMRC would then know to give me the tax credit / repayment as what would trigger them to manually read the additional info white boxes in my tax return (ie I’m presuming HMRC does not read these for every single tax payer who submits a SA return)? Or is it a case I would have to follow up with a phone call or letter to make sure they picked up this claim from my return?

    Thanks.
    Originally posted by tg99
    You are correct in that HMRC do not read every tax return but one with such a claim (loss reliefs etc) WOULD be dealt with by a more senior officer (used to be an inspector) who would make the adjustment to your self-assessment account. They most definitely would pay attention to any information in the additional information box.
    I have checked with my former colleagues in my old firm and they have confirmed that the method that I have suggested is still appropriate.
    Last edited by purdyoaten2; 11-11-2017 at 3:29 PM.
    purdyoaten lost his password
    • tg99
    • By tg99 12th Nov 17, 10:29 PM
    • 524 Posts
    • 222 Thanks
    tg99
    You are correct in that HMRC do not read every tax return but one with such a claim (loss reliefs etc) WOULD be dealt with by a more senior officer (used to be an inspector) who would make the adjustment to your self-assessment account. They most definitely would pay attention to any information in the additional information box.
    I have checked with my former colleagues in my old firm and they have confirmed that the method that I have suggested is still appropriate.
    Originally posted by purdyoaten2
    Thanks po2. So just to clarify, presumably there is something in HMRC’s algorithm / computer system when receiving self assessment returns that will automatically flag that mine needs an officer to read it incl the additional info boxes and then make the credit to my tax account (e.g. I’m thinking presumably the system detects I’ve filled in the share loss relief to be used against 15-16 income box and this marks my return out for attention)? And therefore off the back of the 16-17 return I submitted a couple of weeks back then in due course I will get a credit without having to contact HMRC further unless they have an issue with my claim which I don’t believe they would have (guessing similar timeline might apply as to repayments where they say don’t contact them until 4 weeks has passed if you’ve not received it)?

    And I’ve done a bit more playing around / experimentation with figures in an amendment (not submitted obviously) and yep combined with your and jimmo’s feedback I’m pretty sure that HMRC technician has given me incorrect advice. As if I try and amend my 15-16 return to use the loss against 15-16 income as I had been instructed, this then obviously ups my capital gains for that year and thus the only way to offset that would be to also enter the 16-17 capital loss in the 15-16 return too which I believe would be incorrect.
    • purdyoaten2
    • By purdyoaten2 13th Nov 17, 9:26 AM
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    purdyoaten2
    Thanks po2. So just to clarify, presumably there is something in HMRC’s algorithm / computer system when receiving self assessment returns that will automatically flag that mine needs an officer to read it incl the additional info boxes and then make the credit to my tax account (e.g. I’m thinking presumably the system detects I’ve filled in the share loss relief to be used against 15-16 income box and this marks my return out for attention)? And therefore off the back of the 16-17 return I submitted a couple of weeks back then in due course I will get a credit without having to contact HMRC further unless they have an issue with my claim which I don’t believe they would have (guessing similar timeline might apply as to repayments where they say don’t contact them until 4 weeks has passed if you’ve not received it)?

    Broadly that would be my understanding - a pretty good summary of how it used to work in my day and, hopefully, still does. .

    And I’ve done a bit more playing around / experimentation with figures in an amendment (not submitted obviously) and yep combined with your and jimmo’s feedback I’m pretty sure that HMRC technician has given me incorrect advice. As if I try and amend my 15-16 return to use the loss against 15-16 income as I had been instructed, this then obviously ups my capital gains for that year and thus the only way to offset that would be to also enter the 16-17 capital loss in the 15-16 return too which I believe would be incorrect.
    Originally posted by tg99
    Yes - that could be the case. I would have to agree that you may not have been given the best advice from HMRC. However, when SA arrived it was always the case that an earlier year return should never be amended for such a claim from a future year. The main reason was that it played hell with payments on account. (If it had been a trading loss claim, your adjustment would be 'by reference' to 2015/16 liability and would not reduce payments on account for 2016/17.) My first post detailed the 'stand-alone' claim system which I stand by.

    Let us know how you get on.
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    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 13th Nov 17, 10:25 AM
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    Pennywise
    However, when SA arrived it was always the case that an earlier year return should never be amended for such a claim from a future year.
    Originally posted by purdyoaten2
    It really depends on the circumstances. When I'm doing one for a client, I just weigh the pros and cons. If it's a repayment you want, it's certainly quicker to send an amendment for the earlier year as we've found that gets processed far quicker, whereas we've found delays of 2-3 months if you're relying on them to pick out the later year return due to the tick box (i.e. earlier year claim) and/or letter, requiring manual/human intervention. The other benefit of an amended return for the earlier year is that you can check the figures before submission, so HMRC will repay the right amount, whereas we've found it's a 50:50 whether they get the amount calculation correct if they do it manually as an adjustment arising from the later year return. Swings and roundabouts really, but my preference with HMRC is always to avoid human intervention at their end as it usually leads to delay and error.
    • purdyoaten2
    • By purdyoaten2 13th Nov 17, 11:09 AM
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    purdyoaten2
    It really depends on the circumstances. When I'm doing one for a client, I just weigh the pros and cons. If it's a repayment you want, it's certainly quicker to send an amendment for the earlier year as we've found that gets processed far quicker, whereas we've found delays of 2-3 months if you're relying on them to pick out the later year return due to the tick box (i.e. earlier year claim) and/or letter, requiring manual/human intervention. The other benefit of an amended return for the earlier year is that you can check the figures before submission, so HMRC will repay the right amount, whereas we've found it's a 50:50 whether they get the amount calculation correct if they do it manually as an adjustment arising from the later year return. Swings and roundabouts really, but my preference with HMRC is always to avoid human intervention at their end as it usually leads to delay and error.
    Originally posted by Pennywise
    You wouldn't consider then actually detailing the amount of the adjustment required in the additional information box? For example:

    loss relief 2016/17 of £1000 carried back to 2015/16. Adjustment due:
    Tax £1000 at 20% = £200
    Class IV NIC £1000 at 9% = £90
    Total adjustment due £290.

    I have always done this without issues. Still, I see the benefits of both. I am surprised that it is now fine to amend the earlier year's return - that used to be a definite No No!
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    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 13th Nov 17, 11:20 AM
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    Pennywise
    You wouldn't consider then actually detailing the amount of the adjustment required in the additional information box?
    Originally posted by purdyoaten2
    In the past, I've sent a detailed computation showing the before and after figures, and HMRC have still managed to foul up their figures as I've found they think they're right and are quick and happy to ignore someone else's workings they think are wrong.

    At least when you do an amended return, the figures are going to be right and no opportunity for HMRC to argue.

    There's just too much "added on" to SA returns these days, such as student loan repayments, child benefit clawback, dividend tax (and zero rate), zero rate band for interest, savings rate band, etc., etc., which I've found HMRC tend to overlook when they're doing the manual adjustments as they just seem to think "£x at 20%/40% gives adjustment of £y" but things are far more complicated now.
    • purdyoaten2
    • By purdyoaten2 13th Nov 17, 11:37 AM
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    purdyoaten2
    In the past, I've sent a detailed computation showing the before and after figures, and HMRC have still managed to foul up their figures as I've found they think they're right and are quick and happy to ignore someone else's workings they think are wrong.

    At least when you do an amended return, the figures are going to be right and no opportunity for HMRC to argue.

    There's just too much "added on" to SA returns these days, such as student loan repayments, child benefit clawback, dividend tax (and zero rate), zero rate band for interest, savings rate band, etc., etc., which I've found HMRC tend to overlook when they're doing the manual adjustments as they just seem to think "£x at 20%/40% gives adjustment of £y" but things are far more complicated now.
    Originally posted by Pennywise
    https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-tax-simplification

    I remember the huge publicity around this. Working well then
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    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 13th Nov 17, 11:47 AM
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    Pennywise
    https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-tax-simplification

    I remember the huge publicity around this. Working well then
    Originally posted by purdyoaten2
    Chocolate fireguard. Their latest report on VAT is an absolute joke - just stating what everyone knows, i.e. it's complicated, and recommending that the govt consider either raising the threshold, lowering the threshold or keeping it the same! Well that was really useful wasn't it! The sooner it's scrapped the better as it is worse than useless and has achieved next to nothing.
    • tg99
    • By tg99 13th Nov 17, 3:00 PM
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    tg99
    Thanks both. I think in the first instance I am going to call HMRC again and discuss the potential different approaches noted above and see if they stand by their original advice.
    • tg99
    • By tg99 14th Nov 17, 12:16 AM
    • 524 Posts
    • 222 Thanks
    tg99
    So, I spoke to another HMRC tech today. Firstly, he confirmed that whilst it is appropriate to amend returns for some claims (such as when you carry back EIS income tax relief to the previous year), in this instance the previous tech person had given me incorrect advice as per your comments po2, I.e. when making a loss relief claim to carry back from 16-17 to 15-16 it all must be done in the 16-17 return (or via a standalone claim) rather than amending the 15-16 return “which even though it would give the same figure may result in some issues for you further down the line if HMRC investigates” why the 15-16 return has been amended for a 16-17 loss relief claim.

    Indeed, he stated that my original 16-17 submission was the correct way to do it (but that I should amend boxes 43 and 44 so they are both the same figure - since it is an EIS company - of £521) other than the fact that I was correct in thinking the Adjustment to tax due section’s ‘Decrease in tax due’ box should also have been filled in with the figure that I should be credited with as a result of the claim (I.e. 45% x £521). However, when I explained that I attempted this but that I got the error message for the Adjustment to tax due section box (as noted in my opening post to this thread), he was not sure why this was given I had completed the boxes for loss relief in the capital gains section. We thus agreed that I would have a further look at my return to see if I was missing anything and if not then I should then call to speak to a Tech after submitting my amended return to get the credit done manually.

    So, I am going to play around with it tomorrow but struggling to see what I’m missing that is resulting in this error message....any bright ideas anyone?! I’ve had a look in my 15-16 return and the same thing happens there and I also got a family member to look in his return that he has not yet submitted and if he enters figures for the loss relief section he also gets the error message.....so doesn’t look like it’s a one off 16-17 bug or specific to me in particular so must be something I’m missing I think.

    As a side note and on the subject of EIS but not this loss relief claim, I did have a random thought when it comes to claiming EIS capital gains deferral relief. Let’s say you deferred a gain from 16-17 that you would otherwise have owed 20% cgt on and then the gain gets revived 3 years later in a year when you have already used by your annual exempt amount. But, within those 3 years the government has upped the cgt rate to say 40%. Given you can amend returns for up to 4 years I believe, could you essentially ask to have that capital gains deferral annulled such that you now owe HMRC 20% of the gain rather than having to pay 40% on it (if this was allowed then presumably you would also have to pay c3 year’s interest on it). Not a particularly likely scenario but you never know given UK politics at present!
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