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  • FIRST POST
    • Bemused14
    • By Bemused14 7th Jul 17, 5:50 PM
    • 9Posts
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    Bemused14
    County court claim form
    • #1
    • 7th Jul 17, 5:50 PM
    County court claim form 7th Jul 17 at 5:50 PM
    Hi everyone and thanks for your great help in advance!!

    (Please be mindful that my typing speed is super slow and English is my 4th language).
    I have received a CCC on 26/6/17 from my old address which i left in Jan 2017.

    Date of release of CCC was 12th June and as a matter of principle i acknowledged receipt of claim on 29/6/17. Since then I have read numerous threads and websites and discussed with close friends in USA but I am finding it a mental torture and waste of my precious time.
    Hope I'll learn a valuable lesson and be helpful to others in similar circumstances.

    So the real story behind my agony with a time line (brief)

    October 2016 : went to a shopping centre car park first time, it was massive with distant poor signage. There was only one car parked in multistorey car park. I was in a rush and went for a quick shopping from a value shopping market. On my return after 50 minutes I started searching for pay area or meters but couldnt find them any where.
    I drove near to the parking area office trying to speak to someone about paying car park fee but it was all desserted. When i was leaving there was no human around and I was the only person there, Even i got worried for my safety. I thought there must be a barrier at the end of car park and kept driving but i found myself on a small road. I thought it must be an abondoned car park and didnt pursue it further as i was in arush to collect my child from the station.

    At the same time someone in my family was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer followed by another shocking bereavement in the family did not allow me to focus on the stupid photocopied parking notices. I was also going thru a bitter divorce due to non-cooperation of my Ex and plus moving to another place! in summary my brain was near to explode.

    Anyway I responded to the clowns on 17/1/17 via email followed by an appeal on [B]11/2/17 and tried to explain the above situation and offered to pay £20 as a goodwill for delayed response, but I dont remember receiving any further letters from my old address. My old address landlord agreed to inform me if she receives any letters. I thought that my appeal has been considered and i dont need to worry and kept going on with life's ups and downs until I received this new mess from the clowns. Unfortunately i did wrote and payed to PPA but did't hear from them as i found thru forums, they are extremely busy.

    Dear comrades and Helpers, now I must submit my defence before 15 July, please guide me, how I proceed with my case as my scenerio is different from others.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Jul 17, 6:17 PM
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 7th Jul 17, 6:17 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Jul 17, 6:17 PM
    what happened isnt all that relevant unless it is actually about the case itself (so none of the peripheral info about health issues etc) - concentrate on the actual parking details and court claim , the time pressures and family issues are not relevant

    and you did not say who ACTUALLY issued the MCOL (NAME OF PPC AND ANY SOLICITOR IF INVOLVED) , and you have not said where the shopping park was, or in what countery either (we have 4 countries here in the UK)

    post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread helps you through the peocess

    using the drop down forum search box will find plenty of recent court claim threads with defences you can crib from

    and if the date of the claim was 12th june then at most you have 33 days from that date, but strictly speaking 28 days IN TOTAL , so lets assume by the middle of july at the latest

    the 28 days starts ticking 5 days after the issue date , for 28 days only

    if its a CEL claim, search the forum for all the claims over the last 5 weeks and crib from their defences to get your own , and submit it by email as a pdf within the next 7 days
    Last edited by Redx; 07-07-2017 at 6:20 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Bemused14
    • By Bemused14 8th Jul 17, 12:34 AM
    • 9 Posts
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    Bemused14
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 17, 12:34 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 17, 12:34 AM
    Thank you Redx, I understand peripheral issues are not important after reading your enlightening forums.
    It was classical trio CEL, ZZPS and Tim Hawker ( Hassal wright) . Parking place was Blenheim shopping centre Penge in south London. I have spoken to Tim Hawker solicitor group and they told me they are no more part of ZZPS limited and nothing to do with my case.
    Have spoken to ZZPS today and got a similar response that they have closed my case and I should be speaking to CEL limited. Tried to call CEL limited but everytime their automated phone service asks for PCN payment of £325.

    Many thanks for your help
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Jul 17, 1:32 AM
    • 50,577 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 8th Jul 17, 1:32 AM
    • #4
    • 8th Jul 17, 1:32 AM
    ( Hassal wright)
    In a defence, get the details right; that's wrong.

    Stop trying to PHONE people, my goodness, how on earth did we get to this state where so many people think everything can be resolved by phone? It's a claim. Defending it is not done by phone and no-one was going to listen to you! Step away from that phone (please).

    All you need to do is read a few of the dozens and dozens of CEL defences and copy & adapt it. They are all pretty much based on a couple of versions, it is that simple. And bookmark any threads you read that are ahead of you (there really were shedloads of CEL claims issued on/around 12th June) so you can see in advance what happens next and whether CEL are continuing beyond DQ stage.

    And...please read the NEWBIES thread post #2, for what happens when and example defences, etc.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 08-07-2017 at 1:35 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bemused14
    • By Bemused14 9th Jul 17, 2:05 AM
    • 9 Posts
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    Bemused14
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 17, 2:05 AM
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 17, 2:05 AM
    Thank you Coupon-m...
    sorry, it's Wright Hassall, i understand i need to be vigilant about my writing.
    Excuse my awkwardness

    I have read many defence templates but unfortunately, haven't come across someone similar to mine.

    Secondly, Court forms and CEL have my old address (landlord usually forward the letters in my name), Shall I inform the court about my new address now before sending defence letter (must send before 15th July)?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Jul 17, 9:37 AM
    • 33,044 Posts
    • 16,998 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 17, 9:37 AM
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 17, 9:37 AM
    Yes inform court and claimant of your new address
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jul 17, 11:18 AM
    • 15,925 Posts
    • 19,958 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:18 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 17, 11:18 AM
    Thank you Coupon-m...
    sorry, it's Wright Hassall, i understand i need to be vigilant about my writing.
    Excuse my awkwardness

    I have read many defence templates but unfortunately, haven't come across someone similar to mine.

    Secondly, Court forms and CEL have my old address (landlord usually forward the letters in my name), Shall I inform the court about my new address now before sending defence letter (must send before 15th July)?
    Originally posted by Bemused14
    so find a similar one and adapt it !!

    you have already been told that they are all pretty similar and based on 2 initial templates ; the legal issues remain the same , no matter what the circumstances are

    and yes , inform the claimant and the court of the correct address for service , in writing

    and you wont be "sending" any defence "letter"

    you EMAIL it to the ccbc email address , adding the defence STATEMENT (not letter) as a pdf attachment

    lamilad described this process recently in one of his replies to somebody else , so find it , read it , do it
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Bemused14
    • By Bemused14 12th Jul 17, 1:33 AM
    • 9 Posts
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    Bemused14
    • #8
    • 12th Jul 17, 1:33 AM
    • #8
    • 12th Jul 17, 1:33 AM
    Many Thanks!Redx, I feel strong now and thanks to you all, have found few useful defence letters after reading sticky notes.

    I have already emailed change of address to CCBC and the Claimant. Thanks for the information, I'll do in writing as well asap.

    MY DEFENCE LETTER: please advise if it's ok in my case
    Here is my draft defence:

    In the County Court Business Centre
    Claim Number: ___

    Between:

    Civil Enforcement Limited v ___

    Defence! Statement

    I am ___, the defendant in this matter and registered keeper of vehicle ___. I currently reside at ____.

    I deny I am liable for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:

    1. The Claim Form issued on the ____ by Civil Enforcement Limited was not
    correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “Civil Enforcement Limited (Claimant’s Legal Representative)”.

    2. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol. And as an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.

    a) There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.

    b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.

    c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.

    d) The Claim forms Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action or sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Claim form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs.

    e) The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.

    f) Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;

    (i) Whether the matter is being brought for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge, and an explanation as to the exact nature of the charge
    (ii) A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)
    (iii) How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)
    (iv) Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper
    (v) Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter
    (vi) If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed
    (vii) If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    g) Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.

    3. The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.

    Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not as there was no clear, transparent information about how to obtain a permit either inside or outside the site) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when neither the signs, nor the NTK, nor the permit information mentioned a possible £323.26 for outstanding debt and damages.

    4. The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs' were incurred. I deny the Claimant is entitled to any interest whatsoever.

    5. This case can be distinguished from Parking Eye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. None of this applies in this material case.

    6. In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.

    a) The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.

    b) In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.

    c) Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    (i) Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
    (ii) Non existent ANPR 'data use' signage - breach of ICO rules and the BPA Code of Practice.
    (iii) It is believed the signage and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.
    (iv) No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer neither known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.
    (v) The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.

    d) BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    (i) the signs were not compliant in terms of the! Font! Size, lighting or positioning.
    (ii) The sum pursued exceeds £100.
    (iii) There is / was no compliant landowner contract.

    7. No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name, which should be in the name of the landowner.

    8. No legitimate interest - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    This Claimant files serial claims regarding sites where they have lost the contract, known as revenge claims and it believed this is one such case. This is not a legitimate reason to pursue a charge out of proportion with any loss or damages the true landowner could pursue.

    9. The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    10. The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:

    (a) failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 12th June 2017.

    (b) Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

    Signed
    Date
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jul 17, 1:40 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 12th Jul 17, 1:40 AM
    • #9
    • 12th Jul 17, 1:40 AM
    Looks good! You've done very well, especially as English is your 4th language!

    I would just say the same as this one, they used the same template:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72822918#post72822918

    Remove the bit about 'nor in the permit information' because this wasn't about 'permits'.

    All you need to do is urgently email your defence to the CCBC.

    ccbcaq@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk

    Subject line should read:
    "Claim no xxxxxxxx: Defence attached.

    Ring the court by Thursday, to confirm they've received it, so you are sure.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bemused14
    • By Bemused14 13th Jul 17, 4:28 AM
    • 9 Posts
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    Bemused14
    Many Thanks! Coupon-M...

    I will do that asap
    • Bemused14
    • By Bemused14 12th Oct 17, 12:50 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Bemused14
    Parking fine
    Dear Forum leaders,
    Thanks for your continued help and support. So far I am strongly following your instructions of not giving in to CEL private parking claim through ANPR camera in a supermarket area. Good news is that CEL has been thrown out of business from that area and now we have 03 hours of free parking.

    As I said No to mediation therefore my case has been transferred to C.. court. From the C court I have now received General Form Of Judgement or Order N24. The order says, "Claimant shall file and serve an amended defence within 14 days. The defendant shall file and Serve within 20 days".

    Further it says: " The order has been made without hearing using court's case management powers contained in part 3 of civil procedure rules. Within 07 days of service of this order you may apply to set aside or vary the order under part 23 of the Civil Procedure Rules, if you do so you must file at court and serve on the other party an Application setting out the reasons why you object to the order being made."

    I am sorry, my understanding of the above is very poor.
    Please help with next steps
    Today is the day 7 of the receipt of letter.

    Many Thanks and best Regards

    Bemused
    Last edited by Bemused14; 13-10-2017 at 9:38 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Oct 17, 1:05 PM
    • 3,891 Posts
    • 2,126 Thanks
    KeithP
    This post belongs on your existing thread.

    Keep all information about one incident to one thread.
    You will find that many posters will not be bothered to search for background info.

    Please copy your recent post onto that thread and allow this new thread to slide down the list.
    .
    • soolin
    • By soolin 12th Oct 17, 1:40 PM
    • 59,241 Posts
    • 41,996 Thanks
    soolin
    I've merged the two threads for clarity.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move posts there. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
    New to Forum? Guide
    • Bemused14
    • By Bemused14 12th Oct 17, 2:14 PM
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    Bemused14
    Sorry,Keith P, was unable to locate the old thread
    Thank you Soolin!
    • Bemused14
    • By Bemused14 13th Oct 17, 9:37 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Bemused14
    Dear Forum leaders,
    Thanks for your continued help and support. So far I am strongly following your instructions of not giving in to CEL private parking claim through ANPR camera in a supermarket area. Good news is that CEL has been thrown out of business from that area and now we have 03 hours of free parking.

    As I said No to mediation therefore my case has been transferred to C.. court. From the C court I have now received General Form Of Judgement or Order N24. The order says, "Claimant shall file and serve an amended defence within 14 days. The defendant shall file and Serve within 20 days".

    Further it says: " The order has been made without hearing using court's case management powers contained in part 3 of civil procedure rules. Within 07 days of service of this order you may apply to set aside or vary the order under part 23 of the Civil Procedure Rules, if you do so you must file at court and serve on the other party an Application setting out the reasons why you object to the order being made."

    I am sorry, my understanding of the above is very poor.
    Please help with next steps
    Today is the day 8 of the receipt of the letter.

    Many Thanks and best Regards

    Bemused
    Last edited by Bemused14; 13-10-2017 at 9:39 PM. Reason: changed day 7 to 8
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 17, 9:51 PM
    • 15,925 Posts
    • 19,958 Thanks
    Redx
    it seems that they have 14 days to file their claim

    then you have 6 days I believe after they have filed that POC to file your defence , so start working on a draft defence
    Last edited by Redx; 13-10-2017 at 9:53 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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