Lifetime allowance

martinx62
martinx62 Posts: 7 Forumite
Hi, how does the Pension Lifetime allowance work. Is it based on the total Pension pot at the time of retirement or is any increase in value due to investment taken into consideration. Thanks Martin
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Comments

  • It's the value of the pot when you "crystallise" it. When that happens depends on how you take it. If you buy an annuity, it's the point at which you purchase the annuity; if you enter simple drawdown, it's the point at which you designate the funds as being available to drawdown; if you enter phased drawdown, you crystallise each different section of the pot separately over the course of your retirement. I think we need more information about what you're doing with your pension, and what you mean by "retirement".
    I am a Technical Analyst at a third-party pension administration company. My job is to interpret rules and legislation and provide technical guidance, but I am not a lawyer or a qualified advisor of any kind and anything I say on these boards is my opinion only.
  • martinx62
    martinx62 Posts: 7 Forumite
    edited 13 October 2016 at 1:10PM
    Hi, thanks for the reply, please see the following additional detail. I am currently working and contributing to a Defined Contribution pension (Pension 2). I have recently taken the transfer value from a Deferred Defined Benefit pension (Pension 1) and transferred the money to a SIPP and although I am not currently taking a monthly income, I have gone into drawdown by taking the 25% tax free cash. The total value of Pension 1 SIPP (including the 25% cash) and Pension 2 is below the Lifetime allowance but close enough for me to want to understand the tax implications. I will be continuing to add to the Pension 2 pension until I retire next year but that in itself will not be sufficient to push the overall pension pot value through the LTA threshold.

    My question is that although the overall pension pot at the start of my planned retirement will be below the LTA threshold the money will be invested in funds as part of drawdown and if those investments do well over a period of time the value could go above the LTA threshold, so at that time would I become liable for the associated LTA taxes. Thanks
  • PensionTech
    PensionTech Posts: 711 Forumite
    edited 13 October 2016 at 3:40PM
    It's still a bit unclear to me what you mean by "when I retire next year". This might sound facetious so I'll explain what I mean:

    Usually, when people say they are retiring, they tend to mean they're leaving work. From a pensions perspective, that's irrelevant; what's relevant is what they do with their pensions, and when. So for instance, you've already "retired" from the SIPP containing Pension 1; you crystallised this at whatever point you put it into drawdown and took the lump sum. So that was tested against the LTA at that point, and it won't be tested again except in one very particular situation that I'll explain in a minute.

    Assuming that when you retire next year, you also put Pension 2 into drawdown (like you did with Pension 1), you will be crystallising it at this date. This means it'll get tested against the LTA at that date, and again it won't be tested against the LTA after that point.

    So future investment returns on the remaining invested funds within Pension 1 and Pension 2 won't be tested against the LTA after you've started taking payments from then, with the following exception:

    If you reach age 75 and you haven't withdrawn all of your drawdown funds, and the remaining pot is worth more than the fund that you had originally designated for drawdown (i.e. the amount that you originally crystallised for that purpose), the difference between the pot at age 75 and the pot size when you started drawing down (not including the initial 25% tax-free lump sum) is tested against the LTA.

    So let's say you've already crystallised Pension 1 which was worth, for argument's sake, £300k (£75k lump sum paid upfront, £225k left in drawdown). Then let's say that next year you're going to crystallise Pension 2, which is worth £600k (£150k lump sum paid upfront, £450k left in drawdown). The total crystallised for the purposes of drawdown is £675k, and the total crystallised altogether is £900k, so you've used up 90% of the LTA.

    Then let's say you get to age 75, and you've taken so little from your drawdown fund and the investments have done so well that you now have £800k left in your drawdown fund at that point. Then the difference between £800k and £675k - i.e. £125k - gets tested against the LTA. Assuming that the LTA isn't any higher by that point (though it should be, if it even still exists), it will use up 12.5% of the LTA. You've therefore used up 102.5% of the LTA, and you'll be charged on the excess.

    If, however, you've withdrawn enough from your drawdown fund that only £500k remains at age 75, this is lower than the £675k you originally crystallised for drawdown, so you don't use up any more of the LTA at this point.

    The way to avoid a charge, then, is to ensure that you withdraw at a rate that doesn't leave your fund becoming overgrown by age 75.
    I am a Technical Analyst at a third-party pension administration company. My job is to interpret rules and legislation and provide technical guidance, but I am not a lawyer or a qualified advisor of any kind and anything I say on these boards is my opinion only.
  • Hi PensionTech,
    Thanks for your time and information
  • Am I not right in thinking that there would be another test at death (whether before or after 75) where the same calculation and potential liability to the penal 55% lump-sum tax (on your estate) will exist?
  • coyrls
    coyrls Posts: 2,431 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    martinx62 wrote: »
    I have gone into drawdown by taking the 25% tax free cash.

    Your SIPP company should have informed you of the % of the LTA used by this crystallisation event. If they haven't, you should ask.
  • Hi Coyrls, I have only just gone into drawdown so hopefully they will tell me over the next few days. Thanks.
  • jamesd
    jamesd Posts: 26,103 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    Since you only just put it into drawdown the percentage of lifetime allowance used will be the amount before drawdown as a percentage of one million.

    So if it was 100,000 you used 10% and have 90% of the lifetime allowance available for future use.

    Say the lifetime allowance reduced to 500,000 next tax year and you put a pot of 200,000 into drawdown that would use another 40% (of the 500,000) and you would then have used a total of 50%.
  • PensionTech
    PensionTech Posts: 711 Forumite
    edited 17 October 2016 at 9:40AM
    Am I not right in thinking that there would be another test at death (whether before or after 75) where the same calculation and potential liability to the penal 55% lump-sum tax (on your estate) will exist?

    No, I don't believe so. If you have uncrystallised funds and die before age 75, then yes, but the OP's funds will be crystallised when they are put into drawdown. In any case, no test against the lifetime allowance is carried out beyond age 75, even upon death, other than a BCE 3 (non-standard increase in payment). If you die before 75 leaving a crystallised drawdown pot, you pass it on tax-free no matter the amount; if you die after 75, you pass it on and it can be drawn down (or paid out in a lump sum) at the marginal tax rate of the beneficiary. I'd link to HMRC's pensions tax manual but it doesn't make this very clear; Royal London does a better job here http://adviser.royallondon.com/pensions/technical-central/information-guidance/death-benefits/death-benefits-from-april-2015/.
    I am a Technical Analyst at a third-party pension administration company. My job is to interpret rules and legislation and provide technical guidance, but I am not a lawyer or a qualified advisor of any kind and anything I say on these boards is my opinion only.
  • You may be right PensionTech when you say that death before 75 does not incur an LTA charge on investment gains above the LTA (although this does seem anomalous given that they do when you reach 75, so that one extra day could mean a hugely increased tax liability and I am checking this point with HMRC as we speak). But either way, it still means that anybody who expects to outlive 75 will sooner or later be forced to withdraw all their investment gains at their marginal tax rates to avoid the penalty tax...on large pots of £1m or so then this might well force them into a higher tax bracket. Not an ideal situation for those hoping to use pensions primarily for IHT protection. See some earlier threads on this.


    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5328115


    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5425617
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