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  • FIRST POST
    • Plant1980
    • By Plant1980 18th May 17, 2:51 PM
    • 17Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Plant1980
    Tricked into Photocopier contract spiral :(
    • #1
    • 18th May 17, 2:51 PM
    Tricked into Photocopier contract spiral :( 18th May 17 at 2:51 PM
    Ill try to make this short,
    Our photocopier company came in to review and offer us a better deal, they did and we signed the deal as it suited us.
    A few weeks later the sales rep said we were on target to go over our print allocation so he needed to adjust the numbers, he did and we resigned (at this point i did not see any cost changes).
    A few more weeks and he called in again with the same proposal to adjust the numbers, we did, and resigned.
    Then a bill came through for 3x what we initially signed up for, i took a look at the contracts and each time he had increased the cost per copy to double the amount.
    We opened a complaint as i think he purposely didnt fill in the new cost until we had signed.

    He phoned and said we could scale the print amounts back down no problem, several weeks go by of trying to get them in to scale down, and finally they say we cant, we have to pay the same amount and they will rebate us a little if we print less, if we want it on a contract they will triple the cost of our prints.
    I know its a long shot but do yo think misrepresentation is an option here?

    Thanks
Page 2
    • Enterprise 1701C
    • By Enterprise 1701C 19th May 17, 7:58 AM
    • 18,312 Posts
    • 199,542 Thanks
    Enterprise 1701C
    It is worth remembering that word of mouth is normally considered part of a contract too.

    How much do you pay if you make no copies?

    Is it worth stopping use of the copiers and taking on other ones to use instead?

    Also, they say they monitor the volumes remotely. I assume the printers are networked, can you adjust this so that they cannot see the printers? I assume you had to allow them to access them from outside, this should be reversible? Would be interesting to see how they reacted to that.
    Last edited by Enterprise 1701C; 19-05-2017 at 8:01 AM.
    What is this life if, full of care, we have no time to stand and stare
    • Plant1980
    • By Plant1980 19th May 17, 8:11 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Plant1980
    We are contracted to a certain volume at a per copy rate, we initially signd up for 30k mono and 5k colour, they said we were going to go over so adjusted it to 40k mono and 10k colour but doubled the cost per copy so we are stuck on that, and now they wont move it down, but to be honest i think they lied as i checked the volumes and we are around the 10k mono and 5k colour.
    Yes when we added them to our network we installed a bit of software to let the machines report prints and toner requirements.
    When he said we need to sign for the volume change there was nothing on there about double the cost or any new per quarter charge so i think he got the signature and filled the rest in later.
    but i dont know where we stand if we pull the direct debit as the lease company will be straight onto us.
    • Enterprise 1701C
    • By Enterprise 1701C 19th May 17, 9:08 AM
    • 18,312 Posts
    • 199,542 Thanks
    Enterprise 1701C
    Not suggesting you pull the direct debit, just that you stop using those copiers, could you get a short term loan on a "trial basis" from someone?

    Are the lease company separate from the photocopier company? I know when we leased out phone systems it was an entirely separate company dealing with the lease.

    Have you tackled the lease company about what appears to be the fraudulent activity?
    What is this life if, full of care, we have no time to stand and stare
    • Plant1980
    • By Plant1980 19th May 17, 9:17 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Plant1980
    The contract is for a minimum amount so we get hit with the bill no matter what, we only get extra charges if we go over the allocated amount of copies per quarter.
    When we got the bill for the double amount we immediately opened a dispute with the lease company, thats when the copier compay said not to worry they would lower the volume amounts for us and get the DD back down, so we closed the complaint, now they refuse to lower the amount and DD.
    Our bills come direct from the lease company no the copier people
    • Enterprise 1701C
    • By Enterprise 1701C 19th May 17, 9:30 AM
    • 18,312 Posts
    • 199,542 Thanks
    Enterprise 1701C
    Sorry, didn't realise it was a set amount. Thought it was per copy. I am coming at this from totally outside the industry, just looking at it from a fairness pov.

    I would say to the lease company that you had been deceived into closing the complaint and you want to reopen it. They have obviously seen how massively the amounts have gone up, and I am surprised they got away with increasing the amount per copy so massively, I would have thought the amount should stay stable or even go down when the quantity was increased, although we have never actually leased a photocopier that way. With amount like that it might have actually been worth considering outright purchase.

    If you are getting nowhere with the photocopier people, the lease people will be the obvious next stop.

    Is it worth considering contacting these people https://www.fla.org.uk/index.php/consumer-information/how-to-make-a-complaint2/ (only had a quick look but they look like they might be relevant)
    Last edited by Enterprise 1701C; 19-05-2017 at 9:52 AM.
    What is this life if, full of care, we have no time to stand and stare
    • macman
    • By macman 19th May 17, 9:52 AM
    • 41,418 Posts
    • 17,040 Thanks
    macman
    I would request, no, insist, that the rep and his manager attend your office to discuss this, as you intend to raise a formal complaint and possibly take legal action.
    It's a lot easier for the company to deny any fraud over the phone than to do it face to face with you.
    I'd also get a complaint down in writing, as phone conversations leave no audit trail. If that fails, you need legal advice.
    I am still not clear if there is a minimum volume clause; if not, just stop using it. They'll soon come and get it back, as it will otherwise be a dead asset to them.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop
    • Plant1980
    • By Plant1980 19th May 17, 10:09 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Plant1980
    Thanks for the advice people, i think once we go down the route of fully complaining i just wanted to be sure we have a solid case, its been total deception at every turn.
    when i asked why they had doubled the costs within a few months they just said "it is what it is"
    I have contacted the faircontracts.co.uk to see what they think, and possibly get a bit of legal advice first before we go head on at them.
    I am almost 100% the financial increase figures were not on the sheet but cannot say "i looked and the box was empty" if you know what i mean.
    • rtho782
    • By rtho782 19th May 17, 10:30 AM
    • 1,034 Posts
    • 747 Thanks
    rtho782
    I would complain to the finance provider, that you've been missold this by the dealer.

    Can I ask who the finance provider is?
    Last edited by rtho782; 19-05-2017 at 10:52 AM.
    Deposit Saved since 01/12/15: £13,000 / £15,000 House Bought!

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    • Plant1980
    • By Plant1980 19th May 17, 10:39 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Plant1980
    Yeah i think that may be the first port of call, The lease company is BNP Paribas.
    • Alderbank
    • By Alderbank 19th May 17, 11:11 AM
    • 95 Posts
    • 93 Thanks
    Alderbank
    What does this thread have to do with loans? It seems to me to be about unit pricing of photocopies!

    This article however might be of interest:
    http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/8356709.__48k_photocopier_bill_may_close_Oxford_ch arity_opened_by_Princess_Diana/#comments-anchor
    It is about a small company which was successfully sued by BNP Barnibas for non payment of photocopier fees.
    The comments suggest that the company directors had not fully understood the contract they had signed. There are some similarities
    • rtho782
    • By rtho782 19th May 17, 11:16 AM
    • 1,034 Posts
    • 747 Thanks
    rtho782
    What does this thread have to do with loans? It seems to me to be about unit pricing of photocopies!

    This article however might be of interest:
    http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/8356709.__48k_photocopier_bill_may_close_Oxford_ch arity_opened_by_Princess_Diana/#comments-anchor
    It is about a small company which was successfully sued by BNP Barnibas for non payment of photocopier fees.
    The comments suggest that the company directors had not fully understood the contract they had signed. There are some similarities
    Originally posted by Alderbank
    Yeah, standard practice for that company. I've known them crush a few charities in that way.
    Deposit Saved since 01/12/15: £13,000 / £15,000 House Bought!

    Debt Cleared since 01/12/15: £6,000 / £7,500
    • Plant1980
    • By Plant1980 19th May 17, 11:22 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Plant1980
    What does this thread have to do with loans? It seems to me to be about unit pricing of photocopies!

    This article however might be of interest:
    http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/8356709.__48k_photocopier_bill_may_close_Oxford_ch arity_opened_by_Princess_Diana/#comments-anchor
    It is about a small company which was successfully sued by BNP Barnibas for non payment of photocopier fees.
    The comments suggest that the company directors had not fully understood the contract they had signed. There are some similarities
    Originally posted by Alderbank
    Well i put it in here because its essentially a loan/lease that we have been scammed into, and how to get out of it, i think they edited the documents after they were signed but proving it would be an issue.
    Also maybe the mis-selling of a contract, verbal agreements being broken, doubling the cost etc, didnt know where else it fit in lol
    • freeisgood
    • By freeisgood 19th May 17, 11:25 AM
    • 494 Posts
    • 770 Thanks
    freeisgood
    Really reminds me of this scam! Contracts that people could not get out off as their signature forged....basically adding things such as figures and signatures to contacts after they had been signed. Same company bnp pairibas!


    http://www.leasinglife.com/comment/britains-largest-telecoms-leasing-scam-back-in-court

    http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/shire-leasing-investec.177053/page-2
    • Plant1980
    • By Plant1980 19th May 17, 1:06 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Plant1980
    Well after speaking to Chas at faircontracts he seems to think there is a few issues that could help us get out of the contract, i will keep you all posted!
    • AndyPix
    • By AndyPix 19th May 17, 1:33 PM
    • 3,010 Posts
    • 2,081 Thanks
    AndyPix
    Well you are being MASSIVELY ripped off in the first place anyway ..


    Example, one of the copiers we lease for 200 per quarter (richo mcp3503)
    We pay 1p per colour impression and 0.32p per Mono.


    Bear in mind that it takes 3 colours to make a full colour page so the absolute maximum we would pay is 3.32p


    I would tear up the contract, rip out the machines and leave them on their doorstep and tell them you'll see them in court *




    *This may not be the best course of action
    Running with scissors since 1978
    • ghostfinder
    • By ghostfinder 22nd May 17, 7:41 PM
    • 174 Posts
    • 128 Thanks
    ghostfinder
    Sadly this is still a thing in my Industry

    You could try to contact the manufacturer of the device to inform them what their dealer is doing - assuming they are a main dealer

    Linkedin is a good place to bash them

    If i have read correctly - your on a minimum billing of x amount of copiers a month - you will always be billed the minimum regardless of how low you usage is? of course if you go over you get billed more, probably at a higher rate.

    Check your lease to see if your copy charge increases every year.

    as someone mentioned - there is a voluntary governing body
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