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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Megan F
    • By MSE Megan F 26th Jul 16, 10:03 PM
    • 55Posts
    • 25Thanks
    MSE Megan F
    NHS worker since 1999? Are you due £1,000s of tax back
    • #1
    • 26th Jul 16, 10:03 PM
    NHS worker since 1999? Are you due £1,000s of tax back 26th Jul 16 at 10:03 PM


    Hi all,

    We've written a new NHS tax reclaim guide and would love your feedback.

    How did you find the info? Was it useful? Do you have any other tips you'd add?

    Thanks for your help!

    MSE Faye

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Page 1
    • tightasagnats
    • By tightasagnats 27th Jul 16, 8:19 AM
    • 299 Posts
    • 88 Thanks
    tightasagnats
    • #2
    • 27th Jul 16, 8:19 AM
    • #2
    • 27th Jul 16, 8:19 AM
    I'm really uncomfortable with this - I'm an NHS employee and had I been paid my usual salary whilst training, then this seems to be an exploitation of a tax loophole and not all all in the spirit of the scheme. The NHS generally is a great employer in terms of pensions and benefits. Screwing the system.
    • sunnyflower
    • By sunnyflower 27th Jul 16, 9:17 AM
    • 271 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    sunnyflower
    • #3
    • 27th Jul 16, 9:17 AM
    • #3
    • 27th Jul 16, 9:17 AM
    I disagree with you, if someone is legally entitled to claim tax relief / a refund why on earth shouldn't they?
    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 27th Jul 16, 9:46 AM
    • 8,702 Posts
    • 15,382 Thanks
    Pennywise
    • #4
    • 27th Jul 16, 9:46 AM
    • #4
    • 27th Jul 16, 9:46 AM
    I disagree with you, if someone is legally entitled to claim tax relief / a refund why on earth shouldn't they?
    Originally posted by sunnyflower
    There's a tax term called "undue enrichment" which is why.

    It sounds as if these staff continued to receive their normal wage, taxed and NI'd as normal, so they suffered no loss.

    Had the NHS trusts understood things properly, they'd have given bursaries (which are tax/nic free) equivalent to the staff "take home" pay so they were no worse off by doing the course.

    As it looks to stand, the staff will now end up better off by getting their full pay and getting their tax/nic refunded. That's undue enrichment.
    • Carlyth
    • By Carlyth 28th Jul 16, 6:10 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Carlyth
    • #5
    • 28th Jul 16, 6:10 PM
    • #5
    • 28th Jul 16, 6:10 PM
    I'm really uncomfortable with this - I'm an NHS employee and had I been paid my usual salary whilst training, then this seems to be an exploitation of a tax loophole and not all all in the spirit of the scheme. The NHS generally is a great employer in terms of pensions and benefits. Screwing the system.
    Originally posted by tightasagnats
    Sorry, I disagree. It will not be the NHS paying the money back it will be HMRC system because the NHS never informed them that employees were being seconded into full time education
    • Emmawink
    • By Emmawink 28th Jul 16, 6:46 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Emmawink
    • #6
    • 28th Jul 16, 6:46 PM
    • #6
    • 28th Jul 16, 6:46 PM
    What about the trainees who did experience loss? Many of my colleagues and I took substantial wage cuts to expand our knowledge to provide a more effective service within the NHS in our specialist field.
    HMRC have and still are being obstructive, some trainees have been waiting 18 months to reclaim what is owed to them, it presents as an efort to stop prole applying. HMRC have and continue to give incorrect information to trusts...its currently a lottery littered with inconsistencies with no clear guidance from HMRC, some are entitled..others who comelted the same couse, sa me trus are not. All people want is transparency and to be treated fairly in this process.
    • sandy32
    • By sandy32 28th Jul 16, 11:43 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    sandy32
    • #7
    • 28th Jul 16, 11:43 PM
    • #7
    • 28th Jul 16, 11:43 PM
    I Was seconded to do my nurse training from my nhs trust still employed by them 2000-2003 I took a drop in wages and was on basic band 2 pay I'm sure this will apply to me ? I have also just spent the last 12 months doing my degree but worked with that so not sure about that one any advise greatly appreciated
    sandy
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 29th Jul 16, 6:17 AM
    • 1,264 Posts
    • 504 Thanks
    Dazed and confused
    • #8
    • 29th Jul 16, 6:17 AM
    • #8
    • 29th Jul 16, 6:17 AM
    I Was seconded to do my nurse training from my nhs trust still employed by them 2000-2003 I took a drop in wages and was on basic band 2 pay I'm sure this will apply to me ? I have also just spent the last 12 months doing my degree but worked with that so not sure about that one any advise greatly appreciated
    sandy
    Originally posted by sandy32
    I wouldn't get your hopes up - the MSE article fails to mention the time cut offs for claiming back tax (or I suppose you could say they have failed to explain why the 4 year cut off doesn't apply to widening access) - gov.uk explains you can only go back 4 years

    If you think youíve paid too much tax but youíve not had a P800 or need a refund sooner, you can make a claim to HMRC for any of the 4 previous tax years.

    https://www.gov.uk/claim-tax-refund/too-much-tax-taken-from-your-pay
    • Carlyth
    • By Carlyth 30th Jul 16, 11:17 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Carlyth
    • #9
    • 30th Jul 16, 11:17 AM
    In response
    • #9
    • 30th Jul 16, 11:17 AM
    [QUOTE=Dazed and confused;71062610]I wouldn't get your hopes up - the MSE article fails to mention the time cut offs for claiming back tax (or I suppose you could say they have failed to explain why the 4 year cut off doesn't apply to widening access) - gov.uk explains you can only go back 4 years

    If you think youíve paid too much tax but youíve not had a P800 or need a refund sooner, you can make a claim to HMRC for any of the 4 previous tax years.


    Hi
    HMRC have said they will cover years 1999-2013 I will try and attach the thing and yes! You need to contact your HR department of the trust that seconded you and they have to claim on your behalf. I phoned HMRC and Payroll and was told HR have to initiate it as they are overwhelmed with claims.
    • Carlyth
    • By Carlyth 30th Jul 16, 11:19 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Carlyth
    Union
    Widening Access Training Scheme Ė have you overpaid tax and national insurance?
    NHS Payroll departments have been contacting staff who may be eligible to receive a refund of Tax and National Insurance (NI) contributions, paid in error, whilst they were in full-time education.

    Her Majestyís Revenue and Customs (HMRC) have stated that employed staff also in full-time education are exempt from Tax and NI up to an annual allowance on earnings of £15,480, whilst in training, provided they meet the following conditions:

    The claimant must have been:

    An existing NHS employee when starting a training scheme (this could have been at another NHS organisation).
    Looking to widen their knowledge.
    In full-time attendance at an educational establishment for at least one academic year, and must have attended the course for at least 20 weeks in that academic year. If the course is longer, the employee must attend for at least 20 weeks on average in an academic year over the period of the course.
    Claims for refunds of tax and NI can be made for the period September 1999 to March 2013.

    HMRC normally only accept refund claims for the previous 6 tax years. However, this restriction has been extended back to September 1999, to coincide with the start of a specific training scheme; the Widening Access Training Scheme.

    NB: If you were on a training course that began prior to September 1999, then you will not be eligible for a refund.

    You should claim directly to HMRC, and they ask that you apply in writing and provide the following information:
    National Insurance Number
    An explanation of why you think you are due a refund, (i.e. incorrectly paid income tax and National Insurance contributions made on payments whilst studying full-time)
    Confirmation of which NHS Trust you are currently employed by, and who you were employed by during the period of your training
    Confirmation of the exact start and end date of your training.
    Confirmation of the amount of bursary you received to attend the course (this is probably your basic wage). Please note, any additional paid work (bank or term time) that you carried out for the NHS during the period of your training would still be liable for tax and National Insurance contributions. If you did no additional paid work for the NHS during the period of your training, then please advise this in your letter. If you did do additional paid work then you must provide HMRC with sample copies of your payslips for each of the tax years involved.
    Proof of your student status (ie letter of secondment from NHS to attend, and any certificates attained).
    Payslips for the period of training if you have then.
    All written claims should be sent to:
    HMRC
    Widening Access Central Co-ordination Team
    Multi Refunds Room BP2001
    Benton Park View
    Newcastle-upon-Tyne
    NE98 1ZZ

    Some members have already successfully claimed a refund, following notification by their employer that they may be eligible. You should contact HMRC directly, with all the relevant information, to find out whether you are also eligible for tax and National insurance contributions made during your own training period.
    • cocoluvsmummy
    • By cocoluvsmummy 30th Jul 16, 8:45 PM
    • 340 Posts
    • 274 Thanks
    cocoluvsmummy
    Widening Access Training Scheme Ė have you overpaid tax and national insurance?
    NHS Payroll departments have been contacting staff who may be eligible to receive a refund of Tax and National Insurance (NI) contributions, paid in error, whilst they were in full-time education.

    Her Majestyís Revenue and Customs (HMRC) have stated that employed staff also in full-time education are exempt from Tax and NI up to an annual allowance on earnings of £15,480, whilst in training, provided they meet the following conditions:

    The claimant must have been:

    An existing NHS employee when starting a training scheme (this could have been at another NHS organisation).
    Looking to widen their knowledge.
    In full-time attendance at an educational establishment for at least one academic year, and must have attended the course for at least 20 weeks in that academic year. If the course is longer, the employee must attend for at least 20 weeks on average in an academic year over the period of the course.
    Claims for refunds of tax and NI can be made for the period September 1999 to March 2013.

    HMRC normally only accept refund claims for the previous 6 tax years. However, this restriction has been extended back to September 1999, to coincide with the start of a specific training scheme; the Widening Access Training Scheme.

    NB: If you were on a training course that began prior to September 1999, then you will not be eligible for a refund.

    You should claim directly to HMRC,.
    Originally posted by Carlyth
    I would disagree with this advice to claim direct to HMRC if you do submit a claim to them they will hold onto that claim for 6 months, send it back to you and tell you you MUST apply through your employer. The advice form HMRC is they will only consider a direct claim if you can not gain support from your employer, but you must provide proof of that.
    • Carlyth
    • By Carlyth 31st Jul 16, 10:09 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Carlyth
    I would disagree with this advice to claim direct to HMRC if you do submit a claim to them they will hold onto that claim for 6 months, send it back to you and tell you you MUST apply through your employer. The advice form HMRC is they will only consider a direct claim if you can not gain support from your employer, but you must provide proof of that.
    Originally posted by cocoluvsmummy
    Yes, I phoned HMRC who told me I had to go through my employer so I contacted HR and they will sort it out for me. HMRC also said once the ball is rolling it should take 12 weeks or get re-embersment so there is an advantage to going through HR anyway...... It will be quicker
    • ShonaBB
    • By ShonaBB 31st Aug 16, 4:09 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    ShonaBB
    My understanding is that not all NHS boards are doing this. Therefore you need to ring them, find out if they are. If so go through your HR department. If not you need them to provide you with written confirmation that they are not taking this forward for you and then you have to do this independently.
    • CazRob
    • By CazRob 1st Sep 16, 10:55 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    CazRob
    My Success Story!
    Quick note about my experience! I am a nurse & midwife and was at the top of what was a 'G' when I was seconded for 12 months full time on a 'student' contract at mid-point 'E' - so I took a big financial hit to study although I did return to my previous pay point afterwards! My previous employer refused to process my application (they were basically being stroppy!) but I sent off the application myself using the Unite template (on their website) and a big pile of supporting paperwork (by recorded delivery). It took 4 months for an acknowledgement then my NI refund arrived - £1700. Four weeks later my tax has been refunded - £4800. Grand total of £6500! It has not affected my State Pension as I have in excess of 35 years already (I can't claim until 67 as far as the State Pension is allowed, I'm now 53). I have never claimed tax credits or anything else as my husband is a higher rate tax payer so there are no further repercussions from my claim. I now feel pretty good about getting my wrongly paid NI and Tax back - after all, I've only got back what I am owed! One small word of warning if you have any 'unearned income' (investments etc) this will have an impact as I have noticed a few £s deducted from the Tax element which I think is interest on a savings account... Good luck!
    • booksurr
    • By booksurr 1st Sep 16, 8:44 PM
    • 3,614 Posts
    • 3,992 Thanks
    booksurr
    Sorry, I disagree. It will not be the NHS paying the money back it will be HMRC system because the NHS never informed them that employees were being seconded into full time education
    Originally posted by Carlyth
    LOL, it will be you, me, and everyone else whose tax is paid into the "system" who will be funding this

    it will doubtless be a vain hope that those promoting this loophole are not on a % based "commission" from the the amounts recovered from us, the taxpayers

    and yes I accept that is a circular argument if you are an NHS employee, but then "you" have "never had it so good"
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 1st Sep 16, 9:04 PM
    • 1,264 Posts
    • 504 Thanks
    Dazed and confused
    CazRob

    Either I've misunderstood what you've written or HMRC have got yours wrong!

    One small word of warning if you have any 'unearned income' (investments etc) this will have an impact as I have noticed a few £s deducted from the Tax element which I think is interest on a savings account... Good luck!

    If your NHS pay/salary/wages/bursary has now been deemed to be non taxable income this is likely to mean you have a lot of unused personal allowances so if you have investment income such as savings interest then any tax deducted from this would also now be refundable to you (assuming your interest was less than your unused tax allowances).

    For the benefit of others maybe you could clarify what has happened to you - have you got more money back or less??

    I suppose it might be different with dividends as the tax on these isnt refundable
    • tightasagnats
    • By tightasagnats 1st Sep 16, 10:42 PM
    • 299 Posts
    • 88 Thanks
    tightasagnats
    Sorry, I disagree. It will not be the NHS paying the money back it will be HMRC system because the NHS never informed them that employees were being seconded into full time education
    Originally posted by Carlyth
    It's all part of the same system, i.e. the public purse. It's the spirit of it, not the letter of it. The less money in the tax system, the less there is to spend on public services.
    • CazRob
    • By CazRob 2nd Sep 16, 9:04 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    CazRob
    Quick review...
    Have just checked my paperwork from HMRC (all 5 pages of it!) Big mistake on my behalf!! I have been refunded a total of just under £16 which must have been interest originally paid on savings - it isn't specified but is under the heading of Dividends / BSI (which I guess is Building Society Interest) / Untaxed Interest. So, in short I got a bit extra! In my case it will certainly have been BSI but it's difficult to remember as my claim was for the financial year ending 2004 and I did have other investments at the time which would have dealt with by others...Thanks for posting a question! CazRob
    • Mosibob
    • By Mosibob 8th Sep 16, 5:21 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Mosibob
    As someone trying to sort this out for an NHS Trust, I'd be interested to know what people have heard from other employers about how they're approaching it.

    From what I've heard some Trusts are trying to gather the information and send it to HMRC and others are telling people they have to claim for refunds direct.

    Obviously we'd like to support our staff and ex-staff, but I'm not sure how much of the historical info is available and HMRC are impossible to get hold of. For one query we had I had to write to HMRC's Chief Exec before I got a response - 9 months it took!

    We've also had conflicting info about the eligibility criteria, but any submissions the Trust makes you have to agree that: "I understand that you may take legal action if I knowingly give incorrect information."
    • debbie_debt
    • By debbie_debt 24th Sep 16, 3:44 PM
    • 246 Posts
    • 757 Thanks
    debbie_debt
    Quick note about my experience! I am a nurse & midwife and was at the top of what was a 'G' when I was seconded for 12 months full time on a 'student' contract at mid-point 'E' - so I took a big financial hit to study although I did return to my previous pay point afterwards! My previous employer refused to process my application (they were basically being stroppy!) but I sent off the application myself using the Unite template (on their website) and a big pile of supporting paperwork (by recorded delivery). It took 4 months for an acknowledgement then my NI refund arrived - £1700. Four weeks later my tax has been refunded - £4800. Grand total of £6500! It has not affected my State Pension as I have in excess of 35 years already (I can't claim until 67 as far as the State Pension is allowed, I'm now 53). I have never claimed tax credits or anything else as my husband is a higher rate tax payer so there are no further repercussions from my claim. I now feel pretty good about getting my wrongly paid NI and Tax back - after all, I've only got back what I am owed! One small word of warning if you have any 'unearned income' (investments etc) this will have an impact as I have noticed a few £s deducted from the Tax element which I think is interest on a savings account... Good luck!
    Originally posted by CazRob
    Cazrob

    Do you mind me asking what a mid-point E is? Is it the same as a mid-Band 5? I know the system changed when Agenda for Change came in, but I'm just wondering what your salary was in order to get such a big refund! Was the course just for one year?

    I've just submitted my claim. I did a 1-year course on a mid-Band 5 in 2009/10 and would be delighted if it came close to £6500

    Debbie
    Emergency fund £435.09/£1000
    L.B.M. 21/09/2016 DEBTS = £30,854.38 30.3.2017 DEBTS = £19,909
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