Take action or pay up?

tea_queen · 19 February 2017 at 2:56PM

Hi, I'm new to this forum but I have read quite a few of the posts, including the newbie ones. I'm hoping you can advise me regarding the next steps I should take regarding a Letter Before Claim received from Gladstones Solicitors Friday.

This is in relation to a PCN notice received on 13th August 2015 and was then appealed to the issuer (Euro Parking Services) first through their online appeals (where they were offered a reasonable price to pay for time car was there) and then numerous letters for several months until around October 2015, with the initial request for £60, then £100 because the PCN wasn't paid within the initial timeframe given.

I then received another letter from them in October 2016 (with no reference to the correspondence the previous year) asking for the £100 as it was still unpaid. Again this letter was responded to and nothing further received.

I have now received the letter from Gladstones Solicitors requesting £160 within 14 days of the letter (received 7 days in from the date on the letter) or they've been instructed to start proceedings against me without further notice.

I am now at the point where I'm fed up of returning home worried about the letters I've received, I don't want to pay this extortionate fee but reading the posts on here, the appeals process can be a long one.

I realise I haven't given many particulars regarding the parking ticket scenario - overview - after PCN received, I reviewed the signage in the car park, there was a sign on the side of a building to the side of car park entrance - you'd only see this as driving in (not leaving as you'd have your back to it) and if you were looking for it with good eyesight due to text size) saying car park opening times for customers of the shop (PCN received after 'closing'), then within the car park itself some signage around the perimeter, not lit up &/or very high up, to the point at which trying to take a photo of the sign, a taller friend still couldn't get a good photo and had to use a flash on the camera in order to see it (due to it being dark after 4pm). It may be worth noting the car park did not offer any way to buy tickets, had previously been a free car park at any time (not just during shop opening hours), and in the last year the shop has changed hands and is once again a free car park.

I guess my first questions are, are they allowed to file legal claims so long after the initial PCN, and if I do appeal what is the most likely outcome in terms of winning and expense to myself?

Thanks in advance.

Coupon-mad · 19 February 2017 at 3:04PM

I guess my first questions are, are they allowed to file legal claims so long after the initial PCN, and if I do appeal what is the most likely outcome in terms of winning and expense to myself?

In England/Wales, anyone wanting to take an alleged debt/dispute to court has up to six YEARS, so yes they can and will. BUT that is not a reason to panic and pay £160 now, please don't!

You will learn a lot from this and can fight it, but it is not at appeal stage. It will be a small claim and yes, you CAN defend this and win. Worst case sceanrio, if you lost, you pay about £160 in the end, that's all, no effect on credit rating, no CCJ and no huge bill.

The LBCCC will be the usual rubbish then (unless it's just a 'debt collector' version using their old Red Cow Yard' address?). If it's one from the proper address, whatever you respond with, there will be a court claim because Gladstones do not read responses and have not even looked at the file, these are automatic robo-claims with zero scrutiny.

But we've never seen a defended Gladstones case from here, lost.

Even though it won't stop the robo-claim, respond as per all the other Gladstones LBCCC threads because it looks better later at a hearing that you responded robustly. Search the forum for 'Gladstones LBCCC'.

Did you give away who was driving in an appeal? Was the first PCN a windscreen one or a DVLA-data fed postal one? It is important to know.

MothballsWallet · 19 February 2017 at 3:06PM

Does this letter say it's a "Letter Before County Court Claim" (LBCCC) or does it say something like "we may advise our client to commence court proceedings?"

If it says it's a LBCCC, check bargepole's thread on what to do at this stage - use the forum search function and look for threads he started.

This thread will tell you what to expect at each stage and what to do with it.

Don't worry - Gladstone's are, in our opinion on this board, incompetent, and they often lose against forum assisted defences like from here or over on pepipoo.

You've got a very good chance (I'll never say 100%) of winning if you get advice from the folks on here

Edit to add: darn, cross-posted with Coupon-mad - sorry, C-m.

Guys_Dad · 19 February 2017 at 3:08PM

Yes to the actual question - up to 6 years.
Now, is it worth fighting?

It seems "I done it, Guv" is your present position and, therefore, you have to pay. But all that depends upon whether or not the PPC and Gladstones have followed the "rules".

Basically, you will have to prove that the signage doesn't comply and the onus is on you to do that, not the other way round.

If you have the original NtK and paperwork, there may be a possibility to challenge whether or not it meets POFA strict requirements. You can demand a copy of that from the other side and, I think, they will have to produce it for court.

So do you still have the NtK and what did your appeal say. Did you admit to being the driver??

tea_queen · 19 February 2017 at 3:51PM

Hi Coupon-mad, thanks for your help, I think I'm just looking for the support and guidance as I'm pretty stubborn with paying for things unjustly!

I would need to check back against the letters I sent to hand at present (only the responses) but I have a feeling they were written as the driver (unfortunately I didn't find this forum in 2015 to know that was a bad move!). It was a windscreen PCN.

ht tp://tinypic.com/r/takdo1/9

ht tp://tinypic.com/r/hs2pzo/9

ht tp://tinypic.com/r/2e5my3c/9

The above should be a link to an edited version of the letter received and links to pics of the signage (daylight pic was received from the shop owner when I enquired with them, and the night pic taken of the sign as it would have been when PCN issued as well, blurry unfortunately).

tea_queen · 19 February 2017 at 3:55PM

Hi Guys Dad, yes I have all the paperwork and the original PCN still, and I have all the copies of my letters sent to them, but unfortunately on a different pc that I can't access until tomorrow.

I have put links in my response to Coupon-mad to the signage and Gladstones letter if that can shed any more light for you?

Thanks for your advice

Fruitcake · 19 February 2017 at 4:12PM

http://tinypic.com/r/takdo1/9

http://tinypic.com/r/hs2pzo/9

http://tinypic.com/r/2e5my3c/9

The_Deep · 19 February 2017 at 4:12PM

Do not be intimidated, it is a scam. If they took you to court, and you put up a good defence, their chance of winning the claim are slim, and they could end up paying you money. As CM says, Gladstones are not to be feared, and, with a bit of time and effort, you can turn this into an enjoyable learning experience.

Coupon-mad · 19 February 2017 at 4:15PM

tea_queen wrote: »

Hi Guys Dad, yes I have all the paperwork and the original PCN still, and I have all the copies of my letters sent to them, but unfortunately on a different pc that I can't access until tomorrow.

I have put links in my response to Coupon-mad to the signage and Gladstones letter if that can shed any more light for you?

Thanks for your advice

You can see that it's a 'real' LBCCC with the client being the parking firm so you can be sure you will be joining those jumping over the hoops of defending a small claim this year. And NONE have lost v Gladstones on here so far.

So, advice is as already given:

Even though it won't stop the robo-claim, respond as per all the other Gladstones LBCCC threads because it looks better later at a hearing that you responded robustly. Search the forum for 'Gladstones LBCCC'.

tea_queen · 19 February 2017 at 6:35PM

Thanks all, I will start putting something together based on the other threads I've read through now.

Can I ask at what point (if any) do you believe the parking charges are correct? My issue with the charge (other than the extortionate price) is that I don't believe signage was adequately visible, but there obviously were signs there once searched for after the PCN was received, so at what point of visibility does the onerous fall on the car driver to find these or should they not have to hunt for them at all? I'm just concerned that my defense won't be strong enough.

Also I've read that I should request all the files relating to the court claim from the solicitor - is it possible to request these before I accept/refuse to pay? I know they have a photograph of the car but are they likely to present other evidence?

Coupon-mad · 19 February 2017 at 7:02PM

My issue with the charge (other than the extortionate price)

And remember, due to the infinite wisdom of elderly (exceedingly rich) Judges at the Supreme Court, 'extortionate sum' is not a defence.

Can I ask at what point (if any) do you believe the parking charges are correct?

In my view, never. the entire industry is like a protection racket which this country should never have supported, never let them loose on DVLA data. Too late now.

I don't believe signage was adequately visible, but there obviously were signs there once searched for after the PCN was received, so at what point of visibility does the onerous fall on the car driver to find these or should they not have to hunt for them at all? I'm just concerned that my defense won't be strong enough.

Sounds strong to me. MANY cases are won on unclear signs. And you've explained more, this all sounds solid as a defence:

I reviewed the signage in the car park, there was a sign on the side of a building to the side of car park entrance - you'd only see this as driving in (not leaving as you'd have your back to it) and if you were looking for it with good eyesight due to text size) saying car park opening times for customers of the shop (PCN received after 'closing'), then within the car park itself some signage around the perimeter, not lit up &/or very high up, to the point at which trying to take a photo of the sign, a taller friend still couldn't get a good photo and had to use a flash on the camera in order to see it (due to it being dark after 4pm). It may be worth noting the car park did not offer any way to buy tickets, had previously been a free car park at any time (not just during shop opening hours), and in the last year the shop has changed hands and is once again a free car park.

In post #31 here on pepipoo, where I post as SRM, the Beavis case is used to assist in wording a defence about a sign which didn't meet that high bar:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=111443&st=20&start=20

I've read that I should request all the files relating to the court claim from the solicitor - is it possible to request these before I accept/refuse to pay?

You won't be accepting or refusing to pay. Neither is right, you are not in the wrong, there is no debt to 'accept' or 'refuse' but there will be a case to defend that there was no contract agreed at all. You cannot clearly see the parking charge in that small print, even in daylight.

I know they have a photograph of the car but are they likely to present other evidence?

If you start reading other Gladstones cases defended and won, then you will see the sort of guff they file is merely bluster and a few photos and a contract with the landowner.

Don't fear for some wonderful 'evidence' that you need; the truth is, Gladstones have not even got a 'file' of anything at all. Nothing has been looked at, this will be a robo-claim where your name and the PCN/VRN merely appears on a list handed to G's by the parking firm and they press ahead with all of them with no due diligence at all, knowing that over half will panic and pay. Don't be that person.

But of course you can ask for all photos taken and a copy of the PCN and Notice to Keeper. You will see that's what everyone does ask for when responding to a G's LBCCC on all the other threads. They don't get anything back in most cases but then the defence can state that a reasonable request for info was ignored...and so it goes on.

HTH

Take action or pay up?

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