Solar ... In the news

1187188190192193334

Comments

  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,752 Forumite
    Name Dropper Photogenic First Anniversary First Post
    edited 4 September 2017 at 8:41AM
    oldish article but quite interesting looking at the options availablev to the uk, especially now that off-shore wind is expected to join on-shore wind and pv, by being cheaper than nuclear.

    quite remarkable that uk pv is heading for half the price of nuclear already, perhaps 50pounds/mwh, and of course already vastly cheaper in the us at around 30dollars/mwh.

    then take inot account the very low intermittency costs of uk pv at less than 2pounds/mwh, with potential for a minus figure of around 4pounds wirth the rollout of storage.

    New nuclear is faltering, but could renewables ride to the rescue?
    Consequently, the crucial question now for the government is where is Plan B? How do we ensure carbon targets are met even if Hinkley Point and the nuclear projects that were meant to follow it falter?

    The answer, thankfully, is staring the government in the face.

    There was a different sort of surprise earlier this year, an extremely welcome one. The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) quietly confirmed that it expects renewable power deployment to be significantly higher than previously thought beyond 2020, primarily due to the plummeting cost and surging popularity of solar power and storage technologies.

    BEIS' projections now expect cumulative new build renewables capacity from 2016 to 2035 to reach 45GW, marking a sharp increase in the 2015 projection for 33GW of new capacity. The energy supply gap that would be created by Hinkley Point delays is already narrower than feared just a few months ago.

    Better still, another happy surprise could come later this autumn with the results of the government's latest clean power contract auction for offshore wind projects. The rumour is the bids will be extremely competitive, promising to deliver offshore wind at a price well below the guaranteed rates being offered to Hinkley Point. The government should be able to purchase a lot more clean power capacity than expected for the same outlay, narrowing any Hinkley-related supply gap still further.
    Such an encouraging outcome would still come with some sizeable challenges in tow, however. The temptation to take advantage of increasingly cost competitive offshore wind should not be used as an excuse to curb overall support for clean energy, nor as a justification for continuing to deny onshore wind, solar, marine energy, and even small modular reactor and carbon capture technologies a viable route to market. If it is foolhardy to put too many eggs in the nuclear basket it is equally risky to make the same mistake with offshore wind.

    In addition, increased reliance on renewables would inevitably demand accompanying investment in the smart grids and energy storage systems, to ensure a renewables-heavy grid remains stable.

    In another welcome coincidence, this is precisely the ground the government's Clean Growth Plan should cover. Climate Minister Claire Perry's decision to strengthen the strategy over the summer suddenly looks prescient; she could do with the flexibility a more ambitious plan would offer in the event the Hinkley project delays start to make Southern Trains look like an exemplar of reliability.
    The paradox of Hinkley Point remains that the UK should work hard to deliver the project, while simultaneously working to prove that emerging clean technologies mean it was never required. And that somewhat bizarre outcome shouldn't surprise anyone.

    it's quite remarkable how quickly nuclear has gone from being 'the' low carbon solution, to being the 'last' low carbon option on the list, but you can't use ideology to argue against economics, no matter how hard, and fast you spin.

    [edit - mwh on this occasion means mega watt hour. m.]
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,355 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    ... it's quite remarkable how quickly nuclear has gone from being 'the' low carbon solution, to being the 'last' low carbon option on the list, but you can't use ideology to argue against economics, no matter how hard, and fast you spin ...
    Hi

    .. I suppose that you could translate that to a simpler and more readily usable form ... 'It's the economy, stupid' ...

    The really odd thing I continually see in such exchanges is the pattern of addressing the issue from the position of large business interests and how technology changes effect energy input pricing ... obviously this is important, however, to the consumer it's simply a case of the price they pay for the energy they use, not the cost to the suppliers ...

    Of course, the ultimate test of the legacy energy industry is their continued willingness to place self-interest before that of the customer. Obviously, a position of maintaining higher than necessary consumer pricing in order to protect investment in a centralised generation strategy which is only in the financial grasp of a limited number of players initially looks to be an excellent self-interest strategy, although extremely short term and eventually self defeating. The ultimate outcome of such short-sightedness can be no more than to further accelerate the development of domestic scale microgeneration & storage technologies ... and of course, microgrid communities with their own generation & storage capacity.

    Of course, the idea of UK households going off-grid is a little daunting to most at the moment, however, to our household with our low level of energy consumption, it's not only a possibility, but unless the industry stop wasting our money and then charging for their ineptness, it's probably just a matter of time.

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • michaels
    michaels Posts: 27,991 Forumite
    Photogenic Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post
    Martyn1981 wrote: »

    then take inot account the very low intermittency costs of uk pv at less than 2pounds/mwh, with potential for a minus figure of around 4pounds wirth the rollout of storage.

    I think there is a severe lack of understanding of this point - possibly at all levels. The 'obvious conclusion' is that because there is no PV on winter evenings and at night that pv is completely of no use when looking at how much thermal generation capacity is required - ie 'You can have as much PV as you want but it will not reduce the number of power stations required by even one'
    I think....
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,355 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    michaels wrote: »
    I think there is a severe lack of understanding of this point - possibly at all levels. The 'obvious conclusion' is that because there is no PV on winter evenings and at night that pv is completely of no use when looking at how much thermal generation capacity is required - ie 'You can have as much PV as you want but it will not reduce the number of power stations required by even one'
    Hi

    Totally understood here .... PV+solar thermal+heatpump+biomass+battery storage+more PV introduces the idea of eventual off-grid ...

    Then again, shared storage in a community (eg village) stirs thoughts of microgrids with backup provided through to direct community energy purchases through brokerage schemes ...

    As prices fall, storage will certainly prove to be a disruptive element for what is currently a heavily protective energy generation & supply sector .... I can certainly see possibilities for a flattening of the vertically integrated business models in the sector, possibly even going further & decoupling of supply and demand at national grid level ... paying the DNO directly for connectivity and then striking a supply contract with a combination of generators/suppliers, including the next door neighbour, the Jones' across the road, Bob the farmer down the lane with his turbine and still having access to external supply on a direct contract or spot purchase basis - with not a sight of any of the current 'big 6' in their current form? ... what an interesting time we're entering! ... :cool:

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,752 Forumite
    Name Dropper Photogenic First Anniversary First Post
    michaels wrote: »
    I think there is a severe lack of understanding of this point - possibly at all levels. The 'obvious conclusion' is that because there is no PV on winter evenings and at night that pv is completely of no use when looking at how much thermal generation capacity is required - ie 'You can have as much PV as you want but it will not reduce the number of power stations required by even one'

    yep, this is what i usually refer to as judging a hammer on it's ability to saw wood.

    most discussions on storage with the silly people will raise the question of inter-seasonal storage, when all we need to achieve is short term balancing.

    when asked about storing pv for the winter i typically point to wind and hydro and suggest we already have, and vice versa too.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • gefnew
    gefnew Posts: 876 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    Hi All
    The problem is the vested interests of each indidual party, and not a common goal where we all benifit from joined up thinking and working together to make things happen.
    not one war against another war but all coming together with aim of making it work.
    this will go on for a long time until the penny will drop.
    regards
    gefnew
  • NigeWick
    NigeWick Posts: 2,714 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary Debt-free and Proud!
    I am hoping that Tony Seba's latest predictions are accurate. In his latest youtube offering he believes personal/local solar with battery backup will be cheaper than any nuclear, diesel, coal or gas electricity generation per kWh in about three years.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
  • .. so whilst talking about Apple carts, I can't help but remember some heated conversations a few years ago comparing the massive generation capacity of ..(, don't mention the 'N' word).. against solar potential
    As a mechanism of preventing clean safe nuclear to help address global warming, solar is a useful albeit massively over used tool to the uninformed and, dare I say, the fossil fuel lobby, because certainly in the higher latitudes, solar without nuclear would be an effective fossil fuel supply.

    It is the "I" word that you should be addressing.
    I for insolation, intermittent and interseasonal.
  • quite remarkable that uk pv is heading for half the price of nuclear already, perhaps 50pounds/mwh, and of course already vastly cheaper in the us at around 30dollars/mwh.
    Hi Martyn - I don't know where you got the £50/MWh for solar from - UK bricing is not the same as elsewhere because it includes transmission costs (per/MWh) which we do not include in European or LCOE pricing.

    The latest projections (last November) I can find for the UK are that by 2030 (priced to a 2012 benchmark for their 'Contract for Difference' contract comparisons.) is:

    By 2030
    Onshore wind: £45-72/MWh
    Solar £59-73/MWh
    Offshore wind £85-109/MWh
    Nuclear £69-99/MWh.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/566567/BEIS_Electricity_Generation_Cost_Report.pdf

    There will no doubt be some movement in the ranges here but I don't see how that could be by the margins you suggest - especially as the pricing does not include the extras required to address problems with non dispatchable (intermittent) supplies.
    We can use gas, but that defeats the object aas it massively devalues the investment in clean renewables.
  • ed110220
    ed110220 Posts: 1,475 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    As a mechanism of preventing clean safe nuclear to help address global warming, solar is a useful albeit massively over used tool to the uninformed and, dare I say, the fossil fuel lobby, because certainly in the higher latitudes, solar without nuclear would be an effective fossil fuel supply.

    It is the "I" word that you should be addressing.
    I for insolation, intermittent and interseasonal.

    I'd say it was precisely the opposite. Nuclear is failing all on its own, simply because in most cases at least in the West it is too expensive, takes too long to build , the projects are too large and tend to be delayed and run over budget. Let's not forget that the latest debacle in South Carolina is far from the first in the USA, for example the public electricity board in Washington state bankrupted itself by trying to build five nuclear plants in the 1970s-80s, of which only one was completed.

    Perhaps China will be more successful because of their very different economy that is better able to build very large long term projects, because of its large state role. If they can, that's great.

    If any shilling for nuclear is taking place, it's more likely to be from the fossil fuel industry, given the likelihood the plans will eventually fall through and yield nothing, in the meantime delaying other low carbon sources of energy.
    Solar install June 2022, Bath
    4.8 kW array, Growatt SPH5000 inverter, 2x Growatt ML33RTA batteries.
    SSW roof. ~22° pitch, BISF house. 12 x 400W Hyundai panels
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 343.1K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.6K Spending & Discounts
  • 235.2K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 607.8K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173K Life & Family
  • 247.8K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards