Custody arrangements for older children after divorce

I_told_you_so · 27 February 2017 at 11:03AM

I would like some advice and opinions on a problem I am currently having with my ex husband.

We divorced five years ago when our daughters were 11 and 8. He moved out and they stayed with me.
He is seeing them usually once or sometimes twice a week. He has paid an amount of maintenance he saw fit and wouldn't negotiate on the amount he paid.
As he only saw the children on and off and paid little maintenance I eventually went through the CMS to assess his income and set an amount he should be paying for two children. This initially almost doubled the amount they asked him to pay. He then queried the shared care arrangement, claiming he was having the children more than he actually did in order to bring the payments down again. We eventually agreed he should stick to seeing them for at least two nights per week which would put him in a slightly lower pay bracket.
But this still meant he was paying considerably more than what he was used to and I believe he is struggling with the amount.
One of the reasons of divorce was his financial abuse and incompetence with money and financial matters leading to bankruptcy and huge amounts of debts on his side, some of which I am still paying off to this day.
Last week totally out of the blue my older daughter told me as she thought she was now old enough, she had decided she now wants to live with her Dad, which left me a bit stunned as she never said anything to this effect before. Shortly afterwards I got a text from my ex stipulating the new care arrangements he wanted to put in place ; an exact 50/50 share of the time arrangements for 2 children, i.e. negating the need for any child maintenance payments on his side or my side.
I immediately had concerns that he actually instigated this and somehow manipulated my older daughter in making this request in order to save himself money.
She is in the middle of her GCSEs and I have no idea how he would intend to get her to school in the morning and back in the afternoon, as he works full time on a shift pattern. His new partner also works full time and they live a considerable distance from her current school. She would have to take a number of buses to get across town both ways and leave at god only knows what hour in the morning to make it to school. (Currently I take her to school on my way to work as it is only 5 minutes by car from where we live)
Of course if they want to pay for a taxi or something then one could argue it could be overcome and this is not my main concern.
My main concern is that my daughter (who has got ADD) was manipulated in order to save him some money without much thought of the broader implications.
My ex has suffered from mental health issues for many years (bipolar) and was on medication. He has had a failed suicide attempt, made himself bankrupt and had an addiction to pornography, some of the material I found hidden in my daughter's bedroom. At the time he claimed the material belonged to his work colleague. I don't know how his work colleague's pornography ended up in my daughter's bedroom though.
He has moved around a bit since he moved out and has lived at his latest address for only 5 months with his new partner.
I know at some point older children can decide for themselves where they want to live, but I have grave concerns about this.
Can I actually refuse to let her live with him or do I have to accept her decision at age 15 (almost 16) irrespective of my concerns ? Or can I ask for some risk assessment or mental health assessment on my ex before I agree ? I have no idea what medication he is on now and whether he is taking it correctly etc.
I don't want to be in my daughter's way but I also do not want to put her at any risk.
Not sure what to do.

TBagpuss · 27 February 2017 at 11:28AM

The court can't make orders about children over 16, and with a child only slightly younger it would be very unusual to make an orer which went against what the child herself wanted, so your 13 year old's views would laos be very relevant.

So the short answeris no, f your daughter wants to move to her dad's you are not going to be ablet stop her.

However, it doesn't sound as though her dad has listened to her either - if she is saying that she wants to live with him and he is proposing 50/50.

It's a very dificult situation to negotate without turning it into a tug of war with your daughter as the rope, but I think it may be appropriate for you to sit down with her and discuss this ; not to try to dissaude her, but approaching it as cceptingthat she has her own views, and asking her what she would like, how she sees things working in paractive. For instance, doesshe think it might be sensibkle to make a move at the end of a school year / term so that she has a littledisruption as possible, is there anything in particualr which has made her want to go to her dad's now, has she thought about how much time she would want to spend with you and with her sister/brother if she does move to live with her dad, has she talked to her dad about the practical arrangements for getting to and from school etc.

If you pitch it as being supportive of her choices but wanting to talk abotu the practical arrangmetns and making sure that she is clear about her expectations and preferences then you ar eless likely to antagonise her.

You could also suggest that she has a 'trial run' of a month or so to see how she feels about it in practice. this could include her taking the buses etc so she has a clearer idea of howit will work. Is she doing her GCSEs this summer? If so, possible ask her whether she thinks it would be a agood idea to wait to September, so that she can look at moving to a school /6th form college closer to her dad's home, and can finish up the school year with her friends.

It may be that if you can negotiate a bit of time before any change that she may change her mind, and if you have been supportive and non-judgmental to her about her wishes and her dad, then she is much more likely to feel able to talk to you if she does cahnge her mind.

I_told_you_so · 27 February 2017 at 12:06PM

I think when he said 50/50 he meant that we will both have one child at home (the younger daughter doesn't want to live with her dad) and see the opposite child at equal times, so that no maintenance payments need to be made by either party. It is more about the monetary side rather than seeing the child. he mapped this out quite intricately , so he has put some thought and advance planning into this.
As he has longstanding mental health issues and I am not sure what type of medication he is currently on, I am more concerned about my daughters longterm welfare, especially if he has manipulated her to save himself some money.

So nobody would actually be responsible to check the environment she intends to put herself into , because she is almost 16 ?

FBaby · 27 February 2017 at 3:49PM

So how did the conversation go when your DD said she wanted to live with her dad. Surely you asked what had prompted this decision and asked her about school etc...

Money shouldn't even come into this conversation on either side, it's about understanding your DD's motives and making sure that it won't impact on her well-being and education. In the end, unless she comes up with very dubious reasons and is likely to be at risk, ie. stopping to attend school all together, she has a right to decide who she wants to live with at that age.

I_told_you_so · 27 February 2017 at 4:09PM

She hasn't provided any deeper reasons apart from that she is old enough and wants to live with her Dad. When asked about getting to school she said she will take the bus. The fact that there is no bus and she would have to take several different ones just to get across town is not really hitting home as she has clearly not put any thought into this. She regrettably has been manipulated in my humble opinion.
Of course it shouldn't come down to money, but in his case it has.
He is pushing for this from his end as he wants to save himself the CMS payments.
And I have no idea into what sort of environment she is putting herself into. As she is not 18 yet, who is responsible that her new environment is suitable and safe ?

copperclock · 27 February 2017 at 4:12PM

I do not envy you. What a difficult position to be in.

One thing I would advise is to steer clear of mentioning your daughter's father's mental health issues or bankruptcy history. People with MH issues and people with money concerns look after children just fine. I know that it's part of a bigger picture for you, but if you keep coming back to them you will make yourself look petty/unreasonable.

The !!!!!! in your daughter's room is another issue, though. That would concern me. What did you do when it happened?

I would say that your focus now needs to be what is best for your daughter in terms of a calm, stable environment in which to take her GCSEs. If she is old enough to decide where to live, then she is old enough to talk to you frankly about why it would be 'better' for her life to be disrupted at this point.

How does your daughter feel about living away from her sister?

Do you think that there is a chance that your ex's desired end game is for you to say 'ok, don't pay any maintenance, as long as I can keep the girls'?

copperclock · 27 February 2017 at 4:21PM

I_told_you_so wrote: »

And I have no idea into what sort of environment she is putting herself into. As she is not 18 yet, who is responsible that her new environment is suitable and safe ?

You and her father, I would have thought. Although, as the PWC you have responsibility for her day to day care and well-being. That's how it's always been explained to me anyway.

Of course, in practice, how do you stop a 15 yo doing what they think they want to do?

Mojisola · 27 February 2017 at 4:26PM

I_told_you_so wrote: »

When asked about getting to school she said she will take the bus.

The fact that there is no bus and she would have to take several different ones just to get across town is not really hitting home as she has clearly not put any thought into this.

So do a trial run - get out the bus timetables and work out together which buses she will have to take, take her over to near her Dad's house, show her where the first bus stop is and set her on her way.

Meet her at the school, bring her home and discuss whether she's happy to do that journey twice a day in term times.

clairec79 · 27 February 2017 at 4:44PM

I think suggesting that due to distance she waits till after her exams couldn't be seen as unreasonable by anyone.

Then ask what she plans to do in September

Mojisola · 27 February 2017 at 4:47PM

Do her friends live in the area around your house? Does she see them after school and at weekends?

Will she manage to keep face-to-face contact going if she is living several bus rides away?

copperclock · 27 February 2017 at 4:49PM

clairec79 wrote: »

I think suggesting that due to distance she waits till after her exams couldn't be seen as unreasonable by anyone.

Then ask what she plans to do in September

Is she in year 10 or 11 OP?

Custody arrangements for older children after divorce

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