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  • FIRST POST
    • Martinosad
    • By Martinosad 12th Oct 17, 12:53 AM
    • 11Posts
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    Martinosad
    Need advice been dismissed after 33yrs service
    • #1
    • 12th Oct 17, 12:53 AM
    Need advice been dismissed after 33yrs service 12th Oct 17 at 12:53 AM
    Please forgive me if this post is in the wrong place.I have been dismissed for fraud and misuse of time misuse of council property when carrying out my overtime and union duties ,I got my appeal next month build no hope,y employer has single me out when me and finish is common practice,an I asked for permission me my line manąger has lied, management refused to show other workers trackers stating dąta protection,when infact identafcation can be hidden ,any advice please would be m9re than welcome
Page 1
    • paddedjohn
    • By paddedjohn 12th Oct 17, 1:18 AM
    • 7,077 Posts
    • 7,726 Thanks
    paddedjohn
    • #2
    • 12th Oct 17, 1:18 AM
    • #2
    • 12th Oct 17, 1:18 AM
    Troll alert ��������
    Be Alert..........Britain needs lerts.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 12th Oct 17, 7:41 AM
    • 4,182 Posts
    • 6,872 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #3
    • 12th Oct 17, 7:41 AM
    • #3
    • 12th Oct 17, 7:41 AM
    Troll alert ��������
    Originally posted by paddedjohn
    Why?

    Maybe, maybe not, but the points are valid for other posters.
    (A) The OP is in a union so that is where they should turn for advice
    (B) Just because something is common practice, or other people do it, does not mean that someone cannot be dismissed for it. The OP appears to agree that they have done what they are accused of; and these are serious allegations. Dismissal for gross misconduct would be well within the range of outcomes available to the employer. I can see no reason why the dismissal is not fair. Nor do I expect it to be the last one, now that the employer knows that others are doing the same thing.
    (C) The OP appears to suggest they may have been a union official of some type. If you are a union organiser, then you need to be squeaky clean - you never give an employer an opportunity to discipline you. You also have a responsibility to point out to others if they are putting their own employment in jeopardy through their own actions, and if misconduct is commonplace you need to make it clear to your members the consequences of misconduct - not join in!
    • Takeaway_Addict
    • By Takeaway_Addict 12th Oct 17, 7:43 AM
    • 5,670 Posts
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    Takeaway_Addict
    • #4
    • 12th Oct 17, 7:43 AM
    • #4
    • 12th Oct 17, 7:43 AM
    Please forgive me if this post is in the wrong place.I have been dismissed for fraud and misuse of time misuse of council property when carrying out my overtime and union duties ,I got my appeal next month build no hope,y employer has single me out when me and finish is common practice,an I asked for permission me my line manąger has lied, management refused to show other workers trackers stating dąta protection,when infact identafcation can be hidden ,any advice please would be m9re than welcome
    Originally posted by Martinosad
    Are you basically saying you claimed for more hours than you actually worked?
    Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked
    • ssparks2003
    • By ssparks2003 12th Oct 17, 7:53 AM
    • 213 Posts
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    ssparks2003
    • #5
    • 12th Oct 17, 7:53 AM
    • #5
    • 12th Oct 17, 7:53 AM
    Without a lot more more information no one is going to be able to advise.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 12th Oct 17, 12:42 PM
    • 4,182 Posts
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    sangie595
    • #6
    • 12th Oct 17, 12:42 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Oct 17, 12:42 PM
    Without a lot more more information no one is going to be able to advise.
    Originally posted by ssparks2003

    To some extent. But tbh there is enough in there (if you know council's) to be very clear on the advice. In particular one aspect - the allegations include a big hint, "fraud and misuse of time misuse of council property when carrying out my overtime and union duties". In disciplinary terms no council will touch a dismissal that includes anything to do with union duties unless they have a 250% ironclad case. Often, not even then. They had enough to dismiss based on fraud and misuse of time and council property. To have gone this far, they are certain of themselves. Beyond certain. And the OP has been clear too - their defence is that others have done the same thing, which translates as an admission they have done these things they are accused of. If they have not, now is the time to say so. Otherwise, I would agree that I would hold out no hope of the appeal having any effect.
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 12th Oct 17, 2:45 PM
    • 6,359 Posts
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    ohreally
    • #7
    • 12th Oct 17, 2:45 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Oct 17, 2:45 PM
    Was the facilities agreement working and did you comply with it?
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 12th Oct 17, 3:06 PM
    • 4,256 Posts
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    TELLIT01
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 17, 3:06 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 17, 3:06 PM
    To the OP, sangie595 is the expert on all things 'union' from what I have read over the past couple of years, so I would certainly put more weight behind his/her comment and information than that of some others who may post into the topic.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 12th Oct 17, 6:09 PM
    • 4,182 Posts
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    sangie595
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 17, 6:09 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 17, 6:09 PM
    To the OP, sangie595 is the expert on all things 'union' from what I have read over the past couple of years, so I would certainly put more weight behind his/her comment and information than that of some others who may post into the topic.
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    Thank you, but to be fair, it's a "simple" relationship. No sensible employer, and even when they are vindictive or wrong, councils are "sensible", wants to face a claim for unfair dismissal for trade union activity. Hence why you have to be squeaky clean on everything else if you are a union officer. Because it's the other stuff they go for. If there is a hint of dismissal because of trade union membership/ activity, then it doesn't matter what else the employer has on you - you rush that it is automatically unfair. Nobody wants to go there. And I'm guessing that the OPs union has told them that - they can't win a tribunal. Probably why they are here.

    And I get it. I even have some sympathy because I can take a good guess at the type of work they do, and whilst it is wrong, in those jobs there is a culture of false timekeeping, cutting corners, and not actually working when they should. A culture that should never have been allowed to exist in the first place, but runs deep - to the earliest days of councils. It's management's fault for allowing it to exist and to continue. But there's a new culture in management - sack everyone they catch doing it. It's black and white. And it's a great way for them to reduce the workforce without paying out redundancy. I don't know any public sector union that doesn't know about this. Out of probably 16 councils within 50 miles of me I can confidently say that the vast majority have dismissed people for exactly these reasons. And the worst thing is that whilst I have sympathy, they are right to. False timekeeping and misuse of council resources was never acceptable and isn't right. But equally, that should have always been the view of management, and the fact that it was not only condoned, but even encouraged, means that older workers are being disproportionately dismissed for doing what had always been accepted as a "perk" of the job. I can't help but feel for people in that situation, even if they are in the wrong.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 12th Oct 17, 6:18 PM
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    TELLIT01
    I agree that you have to feel for people who have been caught out by what was common practice and are now in a situation where they have no effective defence. I suppose you could use the analogy of everybody speeding but that being no defence if you happen to be the one who gets stopped.
    From a personal view, false timekeeping isn't and never has been acceptable although over the years I've known plenty who have done it and got away with it - including managers!
    • xapprenticex
    • By xapprenticex 12th Oct 17, 6:58 PM
    • 1,314 Posts
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    xapprenticex
    I can see why the first person thinks this is a troll post, I'm undecided.
    • Martinosad
    • By Martinosad 12th Oct 17, 7:16 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Martinosad
    hi all thank you all for taking the time to respond for clarity I had asked my line manager because of personal situation to start early and finish early, I have been singled out for my union activities, the full time convenor took redundancy and I had to fight for facility time most of my union time was with management HR , i submitted a grievance against my manger that was anti union for harassment and bullying and my rep suggested mediation which I agreed but was suspended before this could be arranged , before I was suspended I seen my doctor I had a break down panic attacks depression due to the pressures of doing to jobs no one complained when I was attending meetings with HR and management , my colleague complained to management that he was struggling to do our work on his own and was told to just get on with it , I did complain about the pressures of my management but fell on death ears , two months after I was suspended I attempted to committed suicide and have been on medication since this day , my union have been a waste of time and I cannot believe it , I put in grievances but I was told that they was to be put in without reasonable delay? And was denied and told to raise them at my disciplinary hearing before the investigation was complete, so therefore biased and judgmental , I replied I have not left my home for 4 months due to my mental break down and it was a reasonable reason for the delay but still rejected , they are hiding behind data protection and will not under any circumstances allow the proof of custom and practice part 2 will follow soon
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 12th Oct 17, 7:41 PM
    • 4,182 Posts
    • 6,872 Thanks
    sangie595
    hi all thank you all for taking the time to respond for clarity I had asked my line manager because of personal situation to start early and finish early, I have been singled out for my union activities, the full time convenor took redundancy and I had to fight for facility time most of my union time was with management HR , i submitted a grievance against my manger that was anti union for harassment and bullying and my rep suggested mediation which I agreed but was suspended before this could be arranged , before I was suspended I seen my doctor I had a break down panic attacks depression due to the pressures of doing to jobs no one complained when I was attending meetings with HR and management , my colleague complained to management that he was struggling to do our work on his own and was told to just get on with it , I did complain about the pressures of my management but fell on death ears , two months after I was suspended I attempted to committed suicide and have been on medication since this day , my union have been a waste of time and I cannot believe it , I put in grievances but I was told that they was to be put in without reasonable delay? And was denied and told to raise them at my disciplinary hearing before the investigation was complete, so therefore biased and judgmental , I replied I have not left my home for 4 months due to my mental break down and it was a reasonable reason for the delay but still rejected , they are hiding behind data protection and will not under any circumstances allow the proof of custom and practice part 2 will follow soon
    Originally posted by Martinosad
    I'm sorry, but custom and practice doesn't cover fraud. I understand how distressing this has been for you and how it has affected you. And you may be correct that the reason for your disciplinary is because of your union activity. But you did what you are accused of. They don't need to hide behind data protection. You have no right to access those records. And they don't change the fact that you are guilty of the offence. If every single person is doing the same thing, it doesn't make you innocent. There is only one defence here - that you didn't do it. So if you started late and finished early, your time sheet will reflect that fact? Allowing a reduction in hours (with a commensurate reduction in pay) is quite acceptable - but your timesheet will reflect that. If it doesn't, then that is fraud. As I said, if you are a union official, you have to be squeaky clean. And you must understand the importance of written records of variations in contractual terms. So do you have records of the agreement to reduce your hours/ pay?
    • Martinosad
    • By Martinosad 12th Oct 17, 9:14 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Martinosad
    no sorry I wished I had I have known my line manager for 20yrs and he still denies what I asked him and the management knew and accepted the job and finish , what I an trying to gain is the fact I have been singled out for a practice that was acceptable by management and continues to this day, a supervisor had payed 10 of my colleagues 12 hrs pay when she sent them home early, why have you got to be squeaky clean and treated differently for being a union rep when management allows other colleagues to do job and finish? Data protection I have offered acas to look interpedently or remove any information that identify any one, during the investigation I was told all trackers have been checked and no one did job and finish then changed it in the disciplinary hearing to only drivers was checked now HR manger as stated that only one person was checked as a comparable , if there is evidence to prove that colleagues was doing the same and management knew about this can this be withheld? How can I be guilty when I was under the impression I had permission?
    • hyubh
    • By hyubh 12th Oct 17, 9:14 PM
    • 1,980 Posts
    • 1,491 Thanks
    hyubh
    I had to fight for facility time
    [...]
    they are hiding behind data protection and will not under any circumstances allow the proof of custom and practice part 2 will follow soon
    Originally posted by Martinosad
    Did you claim to have worked hours that you did not in fact work or not...? Presumably the 'facility time' thing meant you were devoting some of your paid hours to something that wasn't what you were paid to be doing (this is a weird concept to most people)... and all this paid time, regular hours or overtime, was pensionable on very generous terms...

    At the risk (probably well past!) of sounding like a complete a-hole, when it comes down to it, better stick to technicalities than higher morality. What's normal for union officials like yourself and Sangie is a world away from most people who work in the private sector. I work lots of 'overtime', but paid - ha ha - and pensionable - and 1/49 CARE pensionable - what the f...?
    • xapprenticex
    • By xapprenticex 12th Oct 17, 9:19 PM
    • 1,314 Posts
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    xapprenticex
    You really are going to have to drop the "Other people are doing it too" routine. Its not a defense.
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 12th Oct 17, 9:52 PM
    • 1,853 Posts
    • 3,842 Thanks
    IAmWales
    You really are going to have to drop the "Other people are doing it too" routine. Its not a defense.
    Originally posted by xapprenticex
    OP was being treated differently to his (ex) colleagues, and feels that was because of his union activity. It's quite possibly true, but proving the link is going to be nigh on impossible.

    Have you had any counselling Martin? It's not going to change anything but it may help to talk it through with someone.
    • xapprenticex
    • By xapprenticex 12th Oct 17, 10:04 PM
    • 1,314 Posts
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    xapprenticex
    OP was being treated differently to his (ex) colleagues, and feels that was because of his union activity. It's quite possibly true, but proving the link is going to be nigh on impossible.

    Have you had any counselling Martin? It's not going to change anything but it may help to talk it through with someone.
    Originally posted by IAmWales
    Yeah thats what im saying, its pointless to go that route. But imo a person working for the union is going to be held to a higher standard naturally, it was silly to be logging hours he was not working.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 12th Oct 17, 10:04 PM
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    sangie595
    no sorry I wished I had I have known my line manager for 20yrs and he still denies what I asked him and the management knew and accepted the job and finish This is not, and has never been, the terms of employment for local authority employees. Local authority employees have fixed hours. Due to changes in employment practices over the years. those hours may have varied slightly. But local authorities do not have task and finish terms, and never have. You are a union official - you deal with peoples terms and conditions all the time. You must have known that. , what I an trying to gain is the fact I have been singled out for a practice that was acceptable by management and continues to this day, No, this is what your are not understanding. You have acted fraudulently. You appear to be admitting that. So there is no "singling out" - the employers defence is that you are the one who has been caught. You are at liberty to provide the employer with the details of people who have done the same thing - and get them sacked too.
    supervisor had payed 10 of my colleagues 12 hrs pay when she sent them home early, That is entirely different in law. They were sent home, and in law that means the employer must pay the contracted terms. You were not sent home.why have you got to be squeaky clean and treated differently for being a union rep when management allows other colleagues to do job and finish? You are missing the point. You have to be squeaky clean because you are putting yourself on the line. You give the employer no excuse to discipline you. You gave them that excuse and they went for it. Data protection I have offered acas to look interpedently or remove any information that identify any one, during the investigation I was told all trackers have been checked and no one did job and finish then changed it in the disciplinary hearing to only drivers was checked now HR manger as stated that only one person was checked as a comparable , if there is evidence to prove that colleagues was doing the same and management knew about this can this be withheld?You aren't listening. All that proving that would do is get everyonesacked. You have committed fraud. Your argument is that since other people have committed theft, you must be allowed to as well. That argument simply isn't valid and will never convince a tribunal. How can I be guilty when I was under the impression I had permission? Sorry to be harsh, but what kind of union official are you? "Under the impression" isn't a defence. If one agrees new terms of work they are put in writing. That is union training 101 - get everything in a written record that is agreed.
    Originally posted by Martinosad
    It's very simple - you did not work the hours that you put on your timesheet. That is fraud. Under no circumstances, unless your manager sends you home, do you get paid for hours that you do not work. What you think of as a right is not what is written in your terms and conditions. They very clearly lay out the terms of your employment and the hours that you must work. Your terms also include full details of how to apply for flexible working and reduced hours if you wish to do that. You are no different from any other council worker - your contract specifies a set number of hours, a process by which you must account for them, and a clear process for varying those hours. You say that you are being singled out - but you are actually singling yourself out by saying that you should be paid in full for working less than full time, when that is not a term of employment. So if you prove that 500 other people are doing the same as you, then all that does is lead to 501 people getting dismissed. Your defence is not a defence.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 12th Oct 17, 10:12 PM
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    sangie595
    [QUOTE=hyubh;73253599]Did you claim to have worked hours that you did not in fact work or not...? Presumably the 'facility time' thing meant you were devoting some of your paid hours to something that wasn't what you were paid to be doing (this is a weird concept to most people)... and all this paid time, regular hours or overtime, was pensionable on very generous terms...

    At the risk (probably well past!) of sounding like a complete a-hole, when it comes down to it, better stick to technicalities than higher morality. What's normal for union officials like yourself and Sangie is a world away from most people who work in the private sector. I work lots of 'overtime', but paid - ha ha - and pensionable - and 1/49 CARE pensionable - what the f...?[/QUOTE]
    You have absolutely no idea what is "normal" for me. But it includes lots of overtime, which is not paid and does not count towards any pension. And many union officials in the private sector have facility time - it's the law, not some public sector thing! Bashing public sector employees for their so-called better terms may be fun, but repeated studies evidence that this is far from true. Some terms may be better. Others most certainly are not. Any time you want a taste of "my world" feel free to stand for election. There's always plenty of opportunities to put your neck on the line for the sake of a bunch of other people who won't ever stand up for you. But who will certainly blame you for the fact that you can't get them what they want because they will not get off their backsides and fight for whatever it is.
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