JSA Hardship payments

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  • donnajunkie
    donnajunkie Posts: 32,412 Forumite
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    missapril75 wrote: »
    Really? Newsflash. People don't always tell the truth. People have different opinions as to what is or isn't reasonable.

    What if you believed they could get there?

    I used to work in an office of about 80 and more than a third of them traveled to work from towns of between 15 and 20 miles away, most of them by public transport.

    What if your knowledge told you that it was nonsense that someone couldn't get there.
    yes people dont always tell the truth but unless you have reason to think they arent you must believe they are. otherwise people would be getting sanctioned all the time. didnt you say previously if you told them you werent qualified. then the decision maker wouldnt sanction the person. well they could be fibbing about that as well couldnt they? so again beating a sanction would depend on the person being clued up.
    if you suspect they can get there then surely you would ask them why they cant get there. in the case i talked about the job was a very early start and in another town and the person relies on public transport. if you know for sure they could get there then you probably would have to refer them for sanction.
  • donnajunkie
    donnajunkie Posts: 32,412 Forumite
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    missapril75 wrote: »


    Quite right. That's presumably why the target mentioned was so low. 5%.

    As I said earlier, one would have to be very naive to think that the numbers of people not applying for jobs; not keeping appointments; dropping out of training courses; placing unreasonable restrictions on availability and all those sorts of things were fewer than five in every hundred.
    having an opinion that there are 5% not doing as they should is not the same as actually having 5% through the door on a particular day that arent doing what they should. it is not possible to predict accurately. so to have a target would result in innocent people being sanctioned.
  • donnajunkie
    donnajunkie Posts: 32,412 Forumite
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    dookar wrote: »

    if they don't they should have good cause for not doing so.
    this is the crucial point. why would they think someone should apply for a job when they have no chance of getting the job because they would always be late? not being able to get there for the start time is obviously good reason to not apply. refering people for sanction for reasons like this is why so many employers get unsuitable people being sent to them for a job by the jobcentre. i know the person i talked about is now going to apply for everything put in front of them whether its suitable or not.
  • donnajunkie
    donnajunkie Posts: 32,412 Forumite
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    dookar wrote: »

    Yes, the decision will be made based on the evidence
    how is a jobcentre worker typing something into the system evidence? that was enough to get the person i talked about sanctioned. they had to appeal and prove their innocence to get it overturned.
  • missapril75
    missapril75 Posts: 1,669 Forumite
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    edited 2 September 2012 at 1:43AM
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    donnajunkie wrote: »
    yes people dont always tell the truth but unless you have reason to think they arent you must believe they are.

    But what makes you assume the person making the referral doesn't have reason to think they aren't truthful? (Or simply mistaken) As I said earlier, that person is likely to have some knowledge of the job seeker. They may have said something about their situation previously and are now contradicting it. There are any number of relevant things that the officer might know that someone else won't.
    didnt you say previously if you told them you werent qualified. then the decision maker wouldnt sanction the person. well they could be fibbing about that as well couldnt they?
    Yes they could. But you're missing something rather important. The advisor has a copy of the job seeker's agreement and is searching/referring for the jobs the job seeker has agreed they are looking for.

    If they're not qualified for a job, why have they listed it as something they are looking for?
    if you suspect they can get there then surely you would ask them why they cant get there.
    Well it depends at which point they are saying they can't get there. It's quite unusual that the search would include vacancies that weren't local and it's likely only later that the difficulty might be realised - like the start time is before buses.

    The start time, exact location etc may not be known at the referral stage.

    Why it's not do-able is raised when details are known later. If it's clear, the advisor can record something so it goes no further.

    I did that a few times.
  • missapril75
    missapril75 Posts: 1,669 Forumite
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    donnajunkie wrote: »
    having an opinion that there are 5% not doing as they should is not the same as actually having 5% through the door on a particular day that arent doing what they should. it is not possible to predict accurately. so to have a target would result in innocent people being sanctioned.

    That's not the way the targets work. It's not a daily target.
  • missapril75
    missapril75 Posts: 1,669 Forumite
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    edited 2 September 2012 at 1:40AM
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    donnajunkie wrote: »
    how is a jobcentre worker typing something into the system evidence? t

    I can't speak for now but what was typed into the system when I was there a few years ago was nothing more than the fact of referral.

    The facts of the case, together with what hasn't been followed up (or whatever) along with the job seeker's version of matters were paper documents.

    I doubt it's different now.
  • donnajunkie
    donnajunkie Posts: 32,412 Forumite
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    missapril75 wrote: »
    But what makes you assume the person making the referral doesn't have reason to think they aren't truthful? (Or simply mistaken) As I said earlier, that person is likely to have some knowledge of the job seeker.
    they get asked why they didnt apply and they explain why as described. how can they have reason to think the person is fibbing from that? people sign on once a fortnight and it takes a few minutes. it is usually a different adviser each time. so what makes you think the advisers remember people and what they have said in the past?
  • donnajunkie
    donnajunkie Posts: 32,412 Forumite
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    missapril75 wrote: »

    Yes they could. But you're missing something rather important. The advisor has a copy of the job seeker's agreement and is searching/referring for the jobs the job seeker has agreed they are looking for.

    If they're not qualified for a job, why have they listed it as something they are looking for?
    for example you maybe a welder but the job may require experience of a certain type of welding you have no experience of. therefore you are not qualified.
  • donnajunkie
    donnajunkie Posts: 32,412 Forumite
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    missapril75 wrote: »

    Well it depends at which point they are saying they can't get there. It's quite unusual that the search would include vacancies that weren't local and it's likely only later that the difficulty might be realised - like the start time is before buses.

    The start time, exact location etc may not be known at the referral stage.
    the difficulty was realised straight away. the person is knowledgable regarding locations of companies within their type of work. they are also aware of the buses to the area. the journey would have involved a 20 minute walk to the bus station. they would then have had a 40 minute bus ride. they would then had a 40 minute walk to the company. the start time was 7am. the first bus gets to the town at 6.45am. they explained all this to the adviser but stil got refered for sanction. they explained this on the letter that told them about the doubt on their claim. they still got sanctioned. they had to appeal to get it overturned.
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