flex working - date of submission/children - which trumps which?

Posting on behalf of a friend of mine – she’s an older lady and not computer au fait – she provided some background so I have included it – but for the short version go to the bottom :D

Margot works in a large remote archive. She has worked there for 18 years, full time, no issues. Likes the job but it’s not for everyone as you can go all shift without seeing a single soul, all day, everyday – but its laid back, pays well, has a good pension and she can have the radio or an audio book on while working – Enjoys the work and never missed a target or had a day off sick.

There are only three staff and one security person. Each team member has their own areas and tasks so they don’t overlap or see each other at all except for ensuring someone is on site. The only rule is that there needs to at least one member of staff on site during the open hours.

The site has never had any management – it’s been pretty much autonomous for the 18 years Margot’s been there– just the three staff and security. So there is very little to manage– (pay/cleaning/housekeeping and workflow allocation is done remotely by head office in another country) The archive is staffed early morning to late evening and then security looks after the place over night.

The other two members of staff (been there 3 and 5 years respectively) both came back from maternity at almost the same time. The two ladies approached Margot and said that they were struggling with a work life balance and for a short time they needed her to do a split shift (open up/short early shift go home/ short late shift /close up = same hour’s overall). This meant the ladies were doing a set day and could fit in day care, nursery and other family commitments. Margot, remembering how hard being a new mum was, agreed. Its awkward, time consuming and is costing her extra petrol and mileage - but she liked helping the other ladies out for a short time. They were very appreciative.

However there has been a bit of bother at work - Margot’s not aware of what about (it’s not got anything to do with her – so she keeps her nose out) – It must have been a bit of a big deal as manager was flown over to review the two ladies.

She investigated the issues and as part of the review she changed around some of the working areas, put in some new work rules, a new system that tracked the workloads more scrupulously. She reinstated physically clocking in and out with security (not done since before Margot’s time ) and lastly…….the old rota.

The two ladies then promptly refused. They said to the Manager that Margot had requested this flexible working and now due to ‘custom and practice’ – this was her shift whether she liked it or not. They point blank refuse to do the early/late shift as they believe she had set a precedent and this therefore superseded the rota. Margot was really upset as this is a lie, she never requested this working pattern she did it to be helpful and a good colleague. It seems the ladies have enjoyed not having to do shifts and this was the reason they kept pushing back the change back - taking advantage of her soft side.

In light of this upset and her impending retirement Margot, with the assistance and at the active prompting of the manager, has formally requested flexible working – to do a slightly earlier start, shorter lunch and earlier finish. Which the company have preliminarily accepted pending review.

On finding this out the ladies have now lodged a formal grievance that Margot’s submission should be considered AFTER theirs - which is to keep the status quo - as they have children. The company said they will have to take guidance on this but they believe the ladies rights, as they have children, supersede hers – though it’s a moot point at the moment as the ladies haven’t submitted any paperwork.

Now I have had a quick look on the .gov and it does say anyone can apply for flex working but it doesn’t say if one groups status can be considered over another – is that down to the business?
Please note I have a cognitive disability - as such my wording can be a bit off, muddled, misspelt or in some cases i can miss out some words totally...
«134

Comments

  • sangie595
    sangie595 Posts: 6,092 Forumite
    There's a short answer to the long post. Yes - it's up to the company. They can decide to give, or not give, flexible working to anyone. They must refuse on business grounds, but that is easy.
  • jobbingmusician
    jobbingmusician Posts: 20,343 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary Intrepid Forum Explorer
    I think if the .gov site has not given rules, there probably aren't any and it is thus down to the individual business.

    I suspect that the mgmt at this business have worked out that the two mothers have tried to stitch Margot up, and like me, they do not see why Margot should have double travel time and costs in order to accommodate them. (I also, incidentally, have my suspicions as to what came out of the workload review - Margot seems like a hard working and accommodating employee and I wonder if she was carrying the other two! :D )
    I was a board guide here for many years, but have now resigned. Amicably, but I think it reflects very poorly on MSE that I have not even received an acknowledgement of my resignation! Poor show, MSE.

    This signature was changed on 6.4.22. This is an experiment to see if anyone from MSE picks up on this comment.
  • The ladies' rights do not supercede Margot's rights, however it is entirely up the company whether they grant any flexible working requests at all. They need a business reason to refuse flexible working arrangements.

    Custom and practice in this situation is a load of hogwash unless Margot has been doing this for a couple of years. And I do not believe custom and practice can be argued against colleagues but only against the company so to speak.

    The company is seeking an easy way out by asking Margot to put in a flexible working request. I think a better route for the manager is to say that she is currently working an unauthorised shift pattern, for which a Risk Assessment hasn't been completed, and therefore she is required to go back to her standard company approved shift. They should do this as a matter of priority before any flexible working arrangements are considered....and then the ladies route to their preferred shift is cut off at the knees :D
  • sangie595
    sangie595 Posts: 6,092 Forumite
    This suggestion is incredibly devious, and only works if she's got a good relationship with her GP (and willing to fork out for the cost of a letter from them!). A letter from the GP saying that Margot is very stressed, and that as an older lady s/he is very concerned for her health; and that it would be a benefit to her health of her hours were........

    Because actually, what does trump everything is a doctor's request for something. It's a pretty brave employer that takes a risk ignoring what a doctor says, in case they get sued! After all, is older people are fragile and likely to keel over with a heart attack or something. Aren't we?

    Incidentally, this place isn't one of the mystic libraries is it? It sounds very weird!
  • Tygermoth
    Tygermoth Posts: 1,413 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited 26 March 2017 at 7:48PM
    Thank you everyone.

    Sangie - Margot, bless her, would never consider doing anything even mildly devious - its just not in her make up. She is a lovely soul of the 'do onto others' thinking and as such i think these ladies really upset her (she did have a little cry into her tea when she came and visited)

    Jobbing - i am of the same opinion - the staff being made to clock in and out via security and the new work logging system made me think that someones been either leaving early/late or one lady has been covering for the other and they have been taking time away. From the set up they run it wouldn't be hard to do but previous staff have been of Margot's ilk so i don't think they have had any issues before - though to be fair Margot couldn't be 'carrying them' as all three cover different areas so only have their own workloads. (the above is all my opinion alone Margot staunchly refused to speculate)

    Not a library site - its a secure document storage (its huge and a little creepy if i am honest)
    Please note I have a cognitive disability - as such my wording can be a bit off, muddled, misspelt or in some cases i can miss out some words totally...
  • TELLIT01
    TELLIT01 Posts: 16,471 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Name Dropper PPI Party Pooper
    Having kids does not give the parents priority for flexible working. Each case should be addressed on its own merits and how it fits with business needs.
    The "I've got kids" justification for preferential treatment has always driven me mad. Having kids is a lifestyle choice, that's not necessarily true for those without and can be an additional kick in the teeth to childless staff when those with are given in to.
  • Ci_bach
    Ci_bach Posts: 31 Forumite
    Ah yes. This sort of carry on by Margots 2 colleagues used to be known as ' the Devine Right of Working Mothers' at one place where I worked. Along with first dibs on annual leave for school, Christmas and Easter holidays. When rota'd for early or late office cover, there was always a reason why they couldn't (and never a reason why they could!).

    Their sense of entitlement caused a lot of resentment amongst other staff who had to pick up the shortfall.

    I'm not saying it's right but I would not be surprised if that attitude would put employers off employing those with that lack of commitment.

    CB
  • TBagpuss
    TBagpuss Posts: 11,203 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary Name Dropper
    No, there isn't a rule that parents of children come first.
    It's possible, of course, that your friend's employer *does* have a rule like that, but unlikely.

    Ultimately, it is up to the company how they determine to deal with the cases.

    If she has not already done so, Margot may wish to explicitly explain to her manager that she agreed to the change to try to help out the other women and that she did not either request it, or agree to it being permanent.
    All posts are my personal opinion, not formal advice Always get proper, professional advice (particularly about anything legal!)
  • bugslet
    bugslet Posts: 6,874 Forumite
    I'd be writing a letter explaining clearly the circumstances and conversation that led to her temporarily changing her hours and that she now considers that phase has finished, especially as it has been incredibly inconvenient.

    Ci bach, I don't employ women of child bearing age, you only have to look at threads on here to realise it makes life more complicated than it is already.
  • kazzah
    kazzah Posts: 460 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Post
    many years ago I worked for an independent retailer - he was a small business man who had upmarket retail establishments in two or three towns.
    his policy was to NEVER employ anyone of childbearing age - he would actively recruit "middle aged" ladies who had older children at secondary school or preferably no children - he favourite ladies to employ were 45-65 + age group. He said it did away with having to accommodate school plays/holidays/sick children/collecting the children from school etc
    he "might" have accepted those accommodations - however from his 40+ years of experience he found that ladies from 45+ were harder working, better presented and had a much better customer service skill set
    Margot would have been his DREAM employee.
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 343.2K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.7K Spending & Discounts
  • 235.3K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 608K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173K Life & Family
  • 247.9K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards