Charging Order? The myth

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  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
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    I do understand what you are say, however, it would be useful if the LR could confirm that a Restriction would become overreached if the details are exactly as related and there is definitely no other concerns registered.


    This could then gives a starting point to investigate why, if the Restriction hasn't been removed, what the possible reason for that is (such as the applicant not getting it right or the LR not getting it right)


    But to try and extract an answer :), is there any reason why a Restriction, on Beneficial Interest, and worded exactly as Wembley's is, wouldn't be overreached (upon a sale to a third party for value) where a standard worded Form K Restriction, if registered instead, would be overreached?
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 5,779 Organisation Representative
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    That has already bee covered in the thread. The starting point for wembley14 is the actual registered title and application. Once we have that detail we can start to investigate as neither you nor I have that detail.

    And I don't understand your question? Did you check the wording of wembley14's restriction against the wording of a form K - I assume you did as you then mention instead. If we are not dealing with a form K restriction here or another form of standard restriction which is overreached then you may have the answer to the conundrum?
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
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    The wording of Wembley's Restriction is


    NO DISPOSITION OF THE REGISTERED ESTATE IS TO BE COMPLETED BY REGISTRATION WITHOUT A CERTIFICATE SIGNED BY OR ON BEHALF OF
    OR ITS SOLICITORS THAT WRITTEN NOTICE OF THE DISPOSITION WAS GIVEN TO THE SAID
    AT LEAST 14 DAYS PRIOR TO THE DISPOSITION (THE SAID FINANCIAL SERVICES BEING THE PERSON WITH THE BENEFIT OF AN INTERIM CHARGING ORDER ON THE BENEFICIAL INTEREST OF MR
    BY THE
    COUNTY COURT UNDER CLAIM
    OR WITHOUT A FURTHER ORDER OF THE COURT WHICH ORDERED THIS RESTRICTION.


    but it is still relating to a sole consumer debt on jointly owned property where, in the majority of cases, a Standard Form K is registered. The point of my question was, the only difference here is that the creditor has to give notification rather than the buyer of the property. So I'm really asking does this wording difference (and if that is he only difference) affect overreaching?


    Also, are there particular reasons why a creditor would use this type of wording rather than a Standard Form K. Or, to put it another way around, is a Standard Form K only allowed unless certain other requirements or circumstances dictate?
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 5,779 Organisation Representative
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    As it is not a form K restriction then the overreaching aspect may not be as clear cut but such restrictions can be applied for via the court and that may be the case here.

    My understanding is that this can happen, albeit rarely, as the creditor will sometimes contend that the form K restriction frustrates the intention of the CO Act 1979 because it could allow the proceeds of sale to be dissipated before the creditor learns of the sale or the existence of the proceeds. They may therefore apply for a modified version of the form K restriction or for a consent restriction. Normally for us to register a modified form K restriction we will need a court order to support it.

    Whether that is what has happened here I do not know as I do not have the specifics as mentioned before.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
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    Thanks LRR that information sheds an awful lot of light on the problem! You must understand we laypeople have to persist with asking certain questions because, as besswales has just confirmed on another similar thread, the professional help isn't always adequate.

    besswales wrote: »
    just a quick update on this thread--- well finally sold the house and moved out at the end of June and life feels sooo much much better!!! My advice to any one with a restriction is to make sure your solicitor understands the process involved mine didn't and the advice of the people on here was invaluable in pointing her in the right direction. Once again thankyou to everyone who took the time to help on here..
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 5,779 Organisation Representative
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    edited 15 July 2014 at 2:23PM
    eggbox - i do understand, hence our continued dialogue and also that not everyone, laypeople or professionals, may appreciate the legal and procedural niceties around charging orders. Whilst we can advise on procedural matters from a registration perspective we are not solicitors or legal advisers.

    Hypothetical or incomplete scenarios can be useful to aid general understanding but in my experience it is the specifics of a given situation that are most relevant.

    And, perhaps most importantly, from our perspective, we register interests such as COs but we are not directly involved in the legal/court process and cannot explain the wider issues involved and/or the impact on debtors/creditors much beyond what we already provide in our online guidance.

    Hopefully wembley14 will be able to resolve the issue but it again seems to be a wider understanding of the legal/court issues that is required which relies on legal advice, which of course costs.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • eggbox
    eggbox Posts: 1,774 Forumite
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    Hopefully wembley14 will be able to resolve the issue but it again seems to eb a wider understanding of the legal/court issues that is required which relies on legal advice, which of course costs.

    That legal advice costs money is, certainly, a hinderance to many people; but the real problem remains that Solicitors are, largely, ignorant of the facts regarding CO (certainly on jointly owned property) and don't take kindly to Joe Public putting them right.


    That's why your input continues to be so helpful to us "laypeople" when we're confronted by a Solicitor/Conveyancer who isn't up to speed on these particular matters.
  • Hi

    Wembley14 sorry for not replying sooner. It sounds as though we have the same 'wording' on our restrictions!

    My house sale fell through, the creditor would not provide a certificate to say we had given notice of the intended sale. The buyers solicitor would not go ahead unless my solicitor gave a firm undertaking that the restriction would be removed. My solicitor spoke at length to land registry and could not get confirmation that the restriction would be removed so could not give a firm undertaking.

    So not I am back at square 1!
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 5,779 Organisation Representative
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Just to update that wembley14 has contacted us directly with the specific details re the property/title number so I can investigate and advise.
    Initial reaction is as expected, namely that there is a modified form K restriction in place.
    I will update the thread as soon as the matter has been clarified.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • wembley14
    wembley14 Posts: 46 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Combo Breaker
    Hi LLR and Eggbox
    I have received feedback from local LR office which has confused me some what.


    First restriction added to title by restrictor had been complied with(certificate from creditor) but the second one added 5 months later with modified wording but still a restriction, had not been complied with(certificate not given from creditor).


    These two restrictions added were for exactly the same debt and creditor. So why cant the compliance of first one not suffice for notification for 2nd one. Notification needed in restriction and not consent which I know the creditor is refusing to do.


    What benefit would it have leaving a restriction on new owners title. Still confused ????????
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