Are there really that many bad tradesmen around??

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  • sevenhills
    sevenhills Posts: 5,838
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    molerat wrote: »
    I spent about 1hr diagnosing the off boiler fault, zone valve leaking into motor head microswitch keeping boiler running after valve had closed. Boiler has not missed a beat for almost 2 years now !

    Is that with the help of the internet, the solution could be found by anyone?
    With the help of Google, faults can be found; perhaps the bad workers just don't care?
  • comeandgo
    comeandgo Posts: 5,731
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    I never use the internet, too many ways to falsify reviews.
  • molerat
    molerat Posts: 31,695
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    sevenhills wrote: »
    Is that with the help of the internet, the solution could be found by anyone?
    With the help of Google, faults can be found; perhaps the bad workers just don't care?
    The internet only helped with downloading a schematic and wiring diagram. Good old fashioned fault diagnosis, something lacking today.
  • Furts
    Furts Posts: 4,474 Forumite
    PhilE wrote: »
    Point taken, but the trader I used for my floors was older, supposedly qualified and experienced and messed things up.

    The 2 tradesmen who were good are both in their 30's and did an excellent job. Saying that the initial heating installer was in his early 40's so not old as such.

    I'm not sure if its an age thing, more that people can take the P and get away with it. All a limited company ever has to do is declare bankruptcy and get away with whatever bad mistakes they've made.

    My point does not appear to have sunk in. All proper training for the construction industry had ceased in this country by around 1985. One cannot put an exact date - but this was the era of YTS, YOPS, Manpower Services Commission and so on. By 1989 MSC was the route much like the earlier comment about Yosser Hughes. In turn this means any construction worker born after say 1965 is unlikely to have received proper training. A simple fact of life which consumers seem totally unaware of. Put simply this means any construction worker under age 52 has to be questionnable.

    Hence your comment about the early 40s heating engineer being deemed old and knowledgeable falls into my warning net.

    I had an excellent kitchen and bathroom fitter working for me - he had never received any formal training. i suspect the same of a good roofer that did lots of work for me. I in turn have taken keen youngsters and tried to guide them with passed on knowledge. So there are not rules written in tablets of stone.

    However there is a huge problem in this country with a lack of skilled workers. But this is as great a problem as clueless consumers who leave common sense locked in a cupboard when they go about engaging contractors.

    And as the years tick by matters will get much worse than they are now.
  • PhilE
    PhilE Posts: 566 Forumite
    Furts wrote: »
    My point does not appear to have sunk in. All proper training for the construction industry had ceased in this country by around 1985. One cannot put an exact date - but this was the era of YTS, YOPS, Manpower Services Commission and so on. By 1989 MSC was the route much like the earlier comment about Yosser Hughes. In turn this means any construction worker born after say 1965 is unlikely to have received proper training. A simple fact of life which consumers seem totally unaware of. Put simply this means any construction worker under age 52 has to be questionnable.

    Hence your comment about the early 40s heating engineer being deemed old and knowledgeable falls into my warning net.

    I had an excellent kitchen and bathroom fitter working for me - he had never received any formal training. i suspect the same of a good roofer that did lots of work for me. I in turn have taken keen youngsters and tried to guide them with passed on knowledge. So there are not rules written in tablets of stone.

    However there is a huge problem in this country with a lack of skilled workers. But this is as great a problem as clueless consumers who leave common sense locked in a cupboard when they go about engaging contractors.

    And as the years tick by matters will get much worse than they are now.

    What I was saying is that younger people have worked on my house and done a good job, but someone in their 50's didn't. It was also younger people who made a dangerous mess of things.

    I'm not sure if the previous generation really were doing a good job, it was during the post war period that the British workman established a shoddy reputation. I'll accept that the current state is a bad one, but you have to go further back in history to find a time when British workmanship really meant something.

    Perhaps you were doing a good job, but that doesn't mean others the same age as you were.
  • Risteard
    Risteard Posts: 1,868
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    In fairness to the NICEIC they have no remit to get involved with a non-electrical safety issue. Likewise Gas Safe with a non-gas safety issue. Asbestos is a serious issue but it really has nothing to do with their registration with either of these organisations.
    RECI & Safe Electric Registered Electrical Contractor
    NICEIC Approved Contractor
    ECA Registered Member
  • Furts
    Furts Posts: 4,474 Forumite
    Risteard wrote: »
    In fairness to the NICEIC they have no remit to get involved with a non-electrical safety issue. Likewise Gas Safe with a non-gas safety issue. Asbestos is a serious issue but it really has nothing to do with their registration with either of these organisations.

    OP has commented about a heating engineer smashing asbestos in the home meaning OP had to vacate. The implication is OP is the innocent party and the heating engineer was a cowboy type. This may be so, but OP has (conveniently?) not mentioned their legal duties over this.

    The law is strict when one considers every consumers duties under the CDM Regs. Hence it is reasonable to ask why OP was requesting the heating engineer to be working around asbestos.
  • Furts wrote: »
    There is an all round problem in the home improvement industry. There are not enough good trades people to satisfy the market. Couple this with apprenticeships becoming non existent around 30-35 years ago and matters are likely to get worse. The age profile in the construction industry is a real cause for concern for the future well being of this country because the properly trained trades are now in their silver haired era. When they have retired there will be a real problem!

    A common scenario is consumers do not undertake due diligence with selecting trades folks. Even if they do, there is frequently a failure with specifying, managing, inspecting and signing off the work. Consumers might say "why should I?" but this is an ostrich mentality. Architects, Quantity Surveyors, Main Contractors and Social Housing Landlords work on this basis, albeit to different degrees. Yet consumers think they need not. It always amazes me that consumers believe they are an exception to this rule, yet they complain when things go wrong.

    Agree about the first point.

    Re the second - I don't think its ostrich mentality. I think it's probably more along the lines of just expecting that someone would be as good at their job as the customer was (well might have been:rotfl:) at theirs.

    I know I've been naive at times and not realised just how poor the standard of work of some tradespeople can be - and I think it's probably been down to knowing I was a good (paid) personal Secretary/officer of various voluntary groups in my time and just naively assuming they would be as good at their job as I was at mine.

    Then I realised......

    But it does take a while for the penny to drop sometimes...:( and to realise one often has to spell things out step-by-step about a totally different type of job to what one has done oneself. It takes a while to get over the assumption that of course they will know their job (because they obviously should - else why are they doing it?). It takes extra time/effort to at least learn the basics of their job (on top of your own job) - when you know that you should only have to specify what your tastes are/where the "basics" go and then leave them to it (ie because that's what you are paying good money for).
  • comeandgo
    comeandgo Posts: 5,731
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    Maybe that's the difference. The tradesmen I use have apprentices who are doing three year courses, they go to college part of the year. Could there be a north, south divide? I also know many family members who did apprenticeships. Last being a nephew who completed his electrician apprenticeship a few years ago.
  • I expect I'll get leapt on:cool: - but it is harder to find decent tradespeople where I am now. So I do think it does vary according to what part of the country one is in.

    There is a logical reason - I suspect a lot of "the best" move elsewhere for better prospects.

    There is an element too of "We tell it like it is" in my home city and, if we're even marginally dissatisfied, then we "move on and find someone else" and that does drive standards up - but in a smaller place then there is a lot of "Better shut up - because it's a small town and you don't know who-knows-who" and I've lost count of how many times I've been told I "should" use a local firm for something (ie just because they are "local"). I've been surprised to find sometimes just who I've been told is "good" - when...actually ...no they aren't (not by any objective standards).
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