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Court in 2 weeks

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  • Mrnick74
    Mrnick74 Posts: 23 Forumite
    Lamilad deserves a knighthood I reckon. Or a Damehood

    I arrived at court early with 3 copies of a challenge to RoA provided, like my extensive WS, by Sir Lamilad (sorry if you're actually a lady, I have no idea). The ushers seemed a bit surprised that I was trying to give them additional material and sent me to window 2 to log it in. The corpulent gentleman there seemed even more non-plussed and echoed "Preliminary Material"? as though I was speaking Esperanto. I went back into the waiting area to be greeted by the representative for the Claimant (boo!) who offered me a "conference"...and revealed she was not employed by BWL. A bit pepped up by nerves I demanded to know who she was and immediately tapped her name into solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk on my phone. She politely enquired what I was doing and when I told her said "Oh you won't find me in there".

    "What are your qualifications?" I demanded.

    Somewhat insouciant "Well I've got a law degree". To be fair she was unflappable throughout

    "HA! Then you have no Right of Audience!" I squawked in triumph "I've got a document for you, come with me." by this point verging on Basil Fawlty meets the Gestapo, whereupon we ran round in circles trying to catch up with the Preliminary Matters which I'd left at window 2...but her copy of which was now back with the ushers.

    We sat in silence while she read through and made notes and my heartbeat returned to normal. Confess I thought I was home and dry. I wasn't.

    When we got in with the judge he was reading through the same document with rather more composure and quizzed the lady on her qualifications, it transpired she had been in front of him before "on numerous occasions" but he did seem to me genuinely surprised that she wasn't a qualified solicitor. I still thought this could be over in round 1...but the law degree kicked in and she convinced him that she was in fact an exemption. I didn't really follow to be honest, something to do with being properly instructed by a solicitor. The man in the chair was satisfied she did have RoA after all but acknowledged my concerns and suggested he was more interested by the lack of a witness, upon which point my opponent had to concede.

    The whole thing after that was essentially about signage.

    I'd read the various cases supplied by Sir L but in the heat of the moment was only really able to call upon Cutts. I noted the time stamps on the photographs and he acknowledged this called into question they being the same as at the time of the contravention (in the absence of a witness). The lady insisted that signage was in keeping with BPA guidelines but he was dismissive and studied them himself before requiring her to identify in the T&C where it stated that an overstay after purchasing a valid ticket, as I had done, would incur a £100 charge. We sat there in silence for 5 minutes while she examined the various images of the signs, drawing comment from the judge that she was using an iPad to expand the images rather than relying on the photocopies we all had (they would have been bigger and easier to see in the car park she said.)

    Of course there was no such unambiguous term on any of the signs, even in the small print. I quoted Denning's Red Hand rule, to which he nodded, but by that point it was pretty redundant I think.

    I still wasn't entirely confident it would go my way during his summing up but it came down to the lack of explicit, clear T&C describing that my particular contravention would be subject to a £100 charge. He dismissed the claim and thanked us both for the way we had presented our evidence. Then I went home.;)

    Massive thanks again to Lamilad, I couldn't have done it without him. Or her.

    And I hope the lady with the law degree qualifies as a proper legal professional and does something a bit more worthwhile. Human rights or something.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,345 Forumite
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    Nice report, had me smiling. Nice result. Did you submit a cost schedule?

    Lamilad - Ian Lamoureux (as I understand it) - becoming a star of this forum.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

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  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,612 Forumite
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    "What are your qualifications?" I demanded.

    Somewhat insouciant "Well I've got a law degree". To be fair she was unflappable throughout

    "HA! Then you have no Right of Audience!" I squawked in triumph "I've got a document for you, come with me." by this point verging on Basil Fawlty meets the Gestapo, whereupon we ran round in circles trying to catch up with the Preliminary Matters which I'd left at window 2...but her copy of which was now back with the ushers.

    Haha!

    Interesting to note you actually won on signage issues though. Very well done to you and Sir Lamilad (Ian)!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • Lamilad
    Lamilad Posts: 1,412 Forumite
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    Really pleased you got the result. A WS and evidence can only take you so far, you still have to do the biz in court so well done.

    I'll be honest, my hopes were not high for this one - the OP had admitted being the driver and seeing the signs. The claimant had also produced a contract from the landowner.

    So it was all down to attacking signage and 'Ex turpi causa non oritur actio'... Creds to Matthew87 for the email from Bury council about illegal signs

    Excel signs are awful so it's good that the courts recognise this and gives us something else to attack when PoFA is not an option.

    Mrnick please could we have your claim number and the name of the the judge - if you can't remember let us know when you get the judgement through. I gather this was Leeds court?
  • Lamilad
    Lamilad Posts: 1,412 Forumite
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    edited 20 May 2017 at 2:58AM
    By the way it's 'Sir' Lamilad ;)
  • Mrnick74
    Mrnick74 Posts: 23 Forumite
    I did mention the illegal sign but he didn't seem interested, it was simply the lack of explicit T&C.

    I don't recall the judge's name unfortunately. Will I get a full written transcript of the judgement?
  • Mrnick74
    Mrnick74 Posts: 23 Forumite
    No, didn't bother with costs. Was never about the money but the principle! I'm not self employed though did need to take half a day off work, I ran to work like I do every Friday, usually go on my bike (saves on parking!) and I walked down to the court so no travel costs to speak of.
  • beamerguy
    beamerguy Posts: 17,587 Forumite
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    edited 20 May 2017 at 8:33AM
    Mrnick74 .... BRILLIANT :beer:

    Sir Lamilad ... that's got a good ring to it, he certainly is a star performer:T


    Reminds me of "Buffy the Vampire slayer"

    Until next time Excel:rotfl:
  • Lamilad
    Lamilad Posts: 1,412 Forumite
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    Will I get a full written transcript of the judgement?

    No you will just get a letter confirming the judgement. This will have the name of the judge on it.

    You can apply for a transcript of the judgement which others could then use to fight similar cases. Cost depends on how long the judge was summing up for but usually around £50-60.
  • Mrnick74
    Mrnick74 Posts: 23 Forumite
    Ah ok, well I reckon I owe that to the community!
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