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JonClay
Posts: 7 Forumite
Hi there
We are about to purchase a property and it has just come to light that the lease is illegible. Apparently it is the only copy in existence and is the same one that has been lodged with the Land Registry.
The vendor's solicitor claims that the lease is readable, but it really isn't! Our solicitor sent us a copy - it's 15 pages long and at least a third of those pages have only half the text showing. It really looks as though it had been photocopied by a blind monkey in the dark!
Naturally we are uncomfortable with progressing the purchase until we have a more legible copy of the lease. However, if another copy doesn't exist then we can't have one.... and there goes the vicious circle....
A couple of potential solutions have come to light which I've shown below. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this situation and what was done to resolve it (or otherwise)?
1. The flat is of a type that is very common in the area. We've been told that the majority of leases for such flats are the same. Could we use a copy of a lease from another flat (maybe the first floor flat - we're buying the ground floor)?
2. Ask the vendor to purchase an indemnity policy to cover us against issues / financial loss on parts of the lease that we cannot read?
Oh, and purchasing the freehold of the property is not an option!
Many thanks
Jon
We are about to purchase a property and it has just come to light that the lease is illegible. Apparently it is the only copy in existence and is the same one that has been lodged with the Land Registry.
The vendor's solicitor claims that the lease is readable, but it really isn't! Our solicitor sent us a copy - it's 15 pages long and at least a third of those pages have only half the text showing. It really looks as though it had been photocopied by a blind monkey in the dark!
Naturally we are uncomfortable with progressing the purchase until we have a more legible copy of the lease. However, if another copy doesn't exist then we can't have one.... and there goes the vicious circle....
A couple of potential solutions have come to light which I've shown below. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this situation and what was done to resolve it (or otherwise)?
1. The flat is of a type that is very common in the area. We've been told that the majority of leases for such flats are the same. Could we use a copy of a lease from another flat (maybe the first floor flat - we're buying the ground floor)?
2. Ask the vendor to purchase an indemnity policy to cover us against issues / financial loss on parts of the lease that we cannot read?
Oh, and purchasing the freehold of the property is not an option!
Many thanks
Jon
0
Comments
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1. Why stop at the lease from another local flat? Why not do some research, and find a lease which has the most favourable terms for the leaseholder irrespective of the location of the flat?
:rotfl:
2) I'd be surprised if this were possible - ask your conveyancer. And what if the issue that later arose was not financial? eg no pets and the freeholder made you get rid of your rottweiller? (I suppose you could claim the vet's bill for putting Huggy down).0 -
Ha ha..... if only solution 1 would work
Yes, solution 2 does sound unlikely to me too, although I did read somewhere that someone had actually done that.0 -
1. Why stop at the lease from another local flat? Why not do some research, and find a lease which has the most favourable terms for the leaseholder irrespective of the location of the flat?
Not something you can legally rely on, but such things do tend to be in near-identical formats and for practical purposes it at least gives you a better idea of what you're missing (or possibly will help you interpret a particular squiggle).
I don't see why not, you can get insurance against much more risky things. A quick search suggests the insurers offer missing and/or illegible deed cover.2) I'd be surprised if this were possible0 -
Who is the freeholder? Do they have a copy of the lease? If they don't, then surely they couldn't pursue you for any breaches of it as neither party would know what is/isn't allowed? I'm assuming that information such as the length of lease and the rate is legible.0
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In the same situation with no other copy of the lease available, the management company agreed to issue a new lease in the same terms as for similar leases in the building. This was to be at vendor's expense so an allowance was made against the purchase price.0
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Thanks everyone - all great answers.
Bouicca21 - I'd never thought of that, thank you. I intend to "have it out" with the Estate Agent today so I will suggest that.0 -
It's the solicitor you need to talk to.0
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The vendor's solicitor claims that the lease is readable...
Naturally we are uncomfortable with progressing the purchase until we have a more legible copy of the lease.
The flat is of a type that is very common in the area.
Ask the vendor to purchase an indemnity policy to cover us against issues / financial loss on parts of the lease that we cannot read?
Naturally you are uncomfortable. Wow, Jon, you really haven't studied the true horror and minefield that is leasehold, have you?
Doubt there is an indemnity policy that covers half of a lease and all that could be construed therein - at the expense of the gullible lessee. Even if there is, can't see how any tribunal could interpret your covenants and obligations or rights when the inevitable grief hits.
The vendor's solicitor isn't acting for you. Ask them to write out what they think the lease says. Then laugh in their face.
Why by all that is sane are you even considering buying this flat?
Please tell me your solicitor has advised you to avoid like the plague? There's got to be alternative flats. Leasehold is nightmare enough.
PS. No managing agent can just issue a lease that they 'knock up' from a neighbour's version. Wouldn't that make for an interesting leasehold world. This problem is one for the vendor to sort before selling. They could go to a Tribunal about the lease and see what happens. If they bought a half-legible lease that is their mistake. They should maybe pursue their solicitor. They are supposed to tell the buyer what the lease says.
Mind you, if the freeholder is willing to serve you a legally signed and sealed and registered new lease for 999 years at a peppercorn rent and no onerous obligations such as prior consent to change the toilet roll or to assign on, maybe you could consider it. The lessee can't do that. The MA can't do that. And the freeholder would be daft to do it.0 -
Well I'm living proof that it is possible to come up with a solution. What is more problematic is whether the mortgage lender is going to find the solution acceptable and that may well depend on the ltv.
Bear in mind that without a legible lease the flat is more or less unsaleable. The vendor has every incentive to sort it out.0 -
Could we use a copy of a lease from another flat (maybe the first floor flat - we're buying the ground floor)?
As a bare minimum:-
At the vendor's expense search the land registry to verify evidentially to your own satisfaction - not just taking assurances but establishing eyes-on fact - the size of the freehold title and how many leases exist on it.
Every leasehold address shows a freehold title and a leasehold title.
If your lease shows a legible freehold title number, all good. Buy that title's register extract for £3. If not buy the neighbour's version.
Scan down to the Schedule of Notices of Leases and write down each leasehold title you see there.
Now pay £12 (?) and order one of them. Check the apportionment schedule for the service charges. Does the percentage match the number of leases? If yes, you now know how many leases exist on the title from two sources and that the apportionment is not fixed on size of demise but by the number of flats.
Now buy ALL the leases - not just their title extract.
Read carefully. Very carefully. Are they the same in every respect and every clause except for where they describe each demised flat? Is there any variation at all? Watch out for over-typed additions such as garage versus parking space. You don't want to lose a garage or end up paying for others if you didn't originally have to.
What about the original terms and the ground rent?
Does 'your' illegible lease reveal 'your' flat's original term and ground rent? The leases may not have been commenced at the same time. Far from it. Your lease may have been extended. Or the others. New leases may have been issued for the neighbours' flats or deeds of variation tagged on the end of the original. Check it all.
Only if satisfied you KNOW your original lease was/is the same as the others, then maybe consider agreeing to the landlord company cobbling a new version for your flat - but I'm fairly certain that will need signing and sealing as a 'new' lease just with a shortened term. I could be wrong. Don't forget, you will want to be able to sell this dog's dinner eventually.
If there is only one other flat on the freehold title your task, should you accept it, will be easier.
I still wouldn't touch it personally, mind. Even if the vendor pays. Don't automatically expect your conveyancing person to have a clue what the lease ought to have said. It will be you left holding the baby. Make sure it is yours.0
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