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  • FIRST POST
    • Gatser
    • By Gatser 14th Dec 09, 1:44 PM
    • 576Posts
    • 207Thanks
    Gatser
    Pensions Planning: The NUMBER
    • #1
    • 14th Dec 09, 1:44 PM
    Pensions Planning: The NUMBER 14th Dec 09 at 1:44 PM
    The NUMBER is how much income you need to "live comfortably"
    So What's your number?
    Very important for pensions planning, to know what you are aiming for.

    My Number? (for a couple)
    I calculated: £22,000
    based on
    Food £5,000
    Car/transport £5,000
    Bills/Utilities £4,500
    Holidays/Leisure £4,500
    Clothing/Cash/Xmas/Other £2,000
    Repairs/replacements £1,000
Page 59
    • stoozie1
    • By stoozie1 11th Jan 18, 6:16 AM
    • 423 Posts
    • 298 Thanks
    stoozie1
    That does sound a very bad experience.

    It does go the other way sometimes, and most dentists have both NHS and private patients.

    My OH often inherits a patient from another dentist who wasn't doing all the treatment he woukd have done. Some do just coast along, private or NHS.

    There are definitely some political problems with how it's funded, but for tge majority of dentists I dont think it's about the money in that way. I think youve been really unfortunate.
    Save 12 k in 2018 challenge member #79
    Target 2018: 24k
    • westv
    • By westv 11th Jan 18, 11:22 AM
    • 4,421 Posts
    • 2,044 Thanks
    westv
    i sympathise. I wouldn't have dental treatment under the NHS ever again. I had the same NHS dentist for 7 years - 6 monthly check-ups and never any alarm bells raised.....
    Originally posted by DairyQueen
    So basically everything was fine when you were NHS but it all went down hill when you went private.

    • DairyQueen
    • By DairyQueen 11th Jan 18, 2:11 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 176 Thanks
    DairyQueen
    So basically everything was fine when you were NHS but it all went down hill when you went private.

    Originally posted by westv
    I wish.
    • Terron
    • By Terron 11th Jan 18, 4:11 PM
    • 134 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    Terron
    DairyQueen and Terron I had no idea that you could get a bill that high for teeth !!
    Hubby lost his front top row in an accident - and to rebuild, make new teeth put in bridge etc was in the region of £1400 but visa NHS treatment the amount we paid was capped at around the £500 mark.
    Originally posted by BOBS
    I was told I had a funny bite by both the dentist I saw from my childhood and the one I saw after I left home, but neither did anything about it,. Over decades that cause my front teeth to wear down and put preasure on the teeth further back. Eventually they started to go and as one went the presure would move to another. It didn't help that I grew up in an area with soft water before fluride touthpaste was common.

    If I had been treated earlier on it would have been much cheaper to do. Because most of my teeth were worn down I needed over 20 crowns after my bite had been adjusted. Several appointments lasted over 5 hours. As it was I paid for 25 years of damage to be fixed at once.

    He warned me that a couple of the teeth were rather weak and the crowns might not last, Both have cone now but lasted over 10 years.,. I have 4 implants now., one needed a bone graft.
    • justme111
    • By justme111 11th Jan 18, 6:09 PM
    • 2,905 Posts
    • 2,803 Thanks
    justme111
    DairyQueen and Terron , in a large part the opinion on responsibility is down to interpretation and in a large part the dentist is not at fault mostly or completely. . Everything we use breaks - the fact teeth break is no more fault of the dentist than the fact people die is fault of doctors. All has limited lifespan. I would agree NHS dentistry is a joke but it is not the dentist's fsult - they are in a bad system and each of them deals with it differently
    • pennystretcher
    • By pennystretcher 12th Jan 18, 1:55 PM
    • 341 Posts
    • 1,369 Thanks
    pennystretcher
    My estimated expenses when I'm in state pension age (2040ish) are:

    Council tax £207.34
    Energy £71.15
    Phones & bband £59.21
    food, entertainment, travel £1,422.96
    insurances including PMI £203.28
    DIY, dentist, specs etc £203.28 (not DIY dentist )
    = £2,167.22pm
    Assuming that the income tax stays the same and the tax free allowance raises to £18k by 2040, I will need approx £28-29k income from pensions. This is excluding state pension as I have a feeling that it will be removed or that it will become means tested by the time I am in state pension age .

    Above is taking today's spending and adding 3% increase in every year to try to estimate inflation. The travel etc is a bit skewed figure as I spend £200 pm for travel at the moment and won't be needing that, but may replace that with a car after I stop working - or additional holidays etc.

    I am concentrating my efforts on getting guaranteed income to that level (in LGPS) even with 7 year reduction rate (currently 31%) and hoping to also have enough savings in order stop working in 11-12 years... Lottery win would be very useful
    Last edited by pennystretcher; 12-01-2018 at 1:58 PM.
    MFW Jan 2018 £190 (almost there!!!)
    • westv
    • By westv 12th Jan 18, 2:23 PM
    • 4,421 Posts
    • 2,044 Thanks
    westv

    = £2,167.22pm
    Originally posted by pennystretcher
    Is that for one or two people? Sounds about average for two.
    • pennystretcher
    • By pennystretcher 12th Jan 18, 2:32 PM
    • 341 Posts
    • 1,369 Thanks
    pennystretcher
    For one. However that's an estimate for yr 2040 and taking 3% inflation into account..
    I think the phone part can be cut into half as I won't have to have 100% reliable internet access and can use mobile internet. (or whatever is available in 2040 - maybe we will all have free Wifi by then...)
    Last edited by pennystretcher; 12-01-2018 at 2:34 PM.
    MFW Jan 2018 £190 (almost there!!!)
    • Terron
    • By Terron 12th Jan 18, 3:39 PM
    • 134 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    Terron
    DairyQueen and Terron , in a large part the opinion on responsibility is down to interpretation and in a large part the dentist is not at fault mostly or completely. . Everything we use breaks - the fact teeth break is no more fault of the dentist than the fact people die is fault of doctors. All has limited lifespan. I would agree NHS dentistry is a joke but it is not the dentist's fsult - they are in a bad system and each of them deals with it differently
    Originally posted by justme111
    My teeth were wearing faster than normal. I can understand the NHS dentists not doing something about it, but it would have been nice to have been informed that something could be done so that I could have investigated doing it earlier.
    • DairyQueen
    • By DairyQueen 12th Jan 18, 3:51 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 176 Thanks
    DairyQueen
    DairyQueen and Terron , in a large part the opinion on responsibility is down to interpretation and in a large part the dentist is not at fault mostly or completely. . Everything we use breaks - the fact teeth break is no more fault of the dentist than the fact people die is fault of doctors. All has limited lifespan. I would agree NHS dentistry is a joke but it is not the dentist's fsult - they are in a bad system and each of them deals with it differently
    Originally posted by justme111
    I'm sure that there are many dentists that treat NHS patients equally with those paying privately. I just haven't found one.

    My dental problem was not open to interpretation. Four dentists (on both sides of the Atlantic) have agreed on the cause. It's a progressive condition and it has a tendency to run in families. The symptoms are receding gums and loss of bone in both upper and lower jaws. It is a condition that would have been obvious to any dental specialist long before the alarm bells were raised for me.

    As bone and gums are the foundations that hold your teeth in place there is a very big problem when they are compromised. It took years for my teeth to loosen but even when they started to become misaligned, and I queried it, Mr NHS pooh-poohed my concerns. I was told "it's your age". I was then in my 40s. Yep, really.

    There is absolutely zero wrong with my teeth. All the extractions are the result of the bone/gum loss and/or the vulnerability to infection caused by that loss. I have never had a broken tooth or an infected tooth. Nope, it's all about the gums.

    I curse that NHS dentist.

    For the record, his colleague (at the same practice) took one look and gave me chapter-and-verse about the symptoms and the cause. I was then given options about remedies. Some are not available on the NHS as they are too danged expensive: implants and bone grafts for starters. After listening to her catalogue of doom I decided that any practice that employed her colleague was best avoided.

    I headed straight for the door and into the (metaphorical) arms of my current dentist. We have conversations about NHS dentistry and I know that he would be very happy to treat on the NHS if the difference between cost and renumeration were less acute, and if all treatments were available to NHS patients. He would not be able to treat NHS patients equally so he opts not to treat them at all.

    Many of the treatments I have chosen are not available on the NHS but they have been the best treatments available for me and, yes, dental treatment can be extortionately expensive. NHS patients are protected from the true cost. I know some people who have spent more than £20k - not on aesthetics but on treatment.

    I now have a gleaming set of straight gnashers. Some are my own, many are not, but there isn't a denture amongst them and I suffer no infections or bleeding gums. That would not be the case if I hadn't had the means to foot that £16k bill. The cost meant sacrifices on other things but it was worth it.

    When my dentist cleans my teeth now he really cleans them. No more of that quick scrape and polish nonsense. I have a deep clean twice a year. It takes an hour and costs £220. Plus investing in a high quality toothbrush and a Sonic flosser. For me the ongoing cost is worth it.

    The chances are that I will require more treatment in the future and I intend to have the means to pay for it. So, yep, my number includes a chunk of cash reserved for that purpose. Other people may not put such a high priority on avoiding dentures and, sometimes, it's a straight choice: denture or implants. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
    • DairyQueen
    • By DairyQueen 12th Jan 18, 4:50 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 176 Thanks
    DairyQueen
    My estimated expenses when I'm in state pension age (2040ish) are:
    Originally posted by pennystretcher
    Congrats for doing so much planning whilst so young. Couple of things about your number:

    1) I have just completed my rant about the cost of my dental treatment (previous post on this thread). I realise that my case is exceptional but bits tend to wear out faster as you approach/reach retirement age. I think that your figure for continuing to see/hear/eat/walk may be a tad optimistic, especially if that includes 20+ years inflation at 3% compounded. Medical gizmos that you never dreamed you would need hit the expenses list. Yep, the NHS may fund something but probably not the best or most appropriate something.

    I have seen the seniors in my family (none of whom are wealthy) fork-out for: glasses that cost extra for thin lenses, walking frames, mobility scooters, wheelchairs, hearing aids, grab rails, level entry showers, riser chairs, blah de blah. Plus, of course, extra dental treatment is one that applies to just about everyone I know aged 60+. State remedies are either means-tested or in the 'poor substitute' category.

    2) That energy cost looks very low. I am expecting energy costs to rise more than inflation to fund investment in green energy, if no other reason. Also, heating costs are one of the things that will definitely rise significantly from the year that you retire.

    3) No allowance for water? Or TV licence? What about replacing things like white goods, household appliances, TV, phone? And the cost of calling in the plumber if a pipe bursts or the loo springs a leak? Clothes? Pets? (current/future). Then there are the other discretionary things: gifts/Christmas/holidays? And the miscellaneous other bits/bobs: plants for the garden? Christmas tree? Logs for a woodburner? Extra food for visitors? Hobbies? Costs of volunteering (there are some)? Printer supplies? Indulging/helping children/grandchildren? A miscellaneous category gives you a bit of extra wriggle-room.

    4) I would split the food from the travel and entertainment as the first isn't discretionary and it looks like the second will change when you retire. The third is definitely discretionary.

    When I did my analysis I separated current discretionary spends from non-discretionary. Removed everything that I wouldn't need (travel costs for work) and then applied the same 3% inflation as you to the total non-discretionary amount up to my desired retirement age. That was the figure that I aimed to achieve in guaranteed income so that all basic expenses were covered.

    I then worked out three figures for discretionary spends: a) need to stay sane, b) nice to have, c) wahey life is a party. The first of these is the minimum you need to be able to drawdown in additional savings (ISAs/SIPPs/whatever). Inflation-proofed, of course.

    There is also the unexpected, unlucky cost that may hit. In my case it was fighting a planning application. That was very, very costly but necessary to preserve my quality of life without having to move. If you want to have all your bases covered then you need a chunk of cash sufficient to fund such things. A car is also not a discretionary item if you live (as I do) in a rural area. Or plan to do so.

    Good luck with it.
    • justme111
    • By justme111 12th Jan 18, 9:32 PM
    • 2,905 Posts
    • 2,803 Thanks
    justme111
    My teeth were wearing faster than normal. I can understand the NHS dentists not doing something about it, but it would have been nice to have been informed that something could be done so that I could have investigated doing it earlier.
    Originally posted by Terron
    it may not relate to you but what usually happens is that once somthing is mentiond as a possible treatment option he next step for the dentist is to have to explain why you dont offer it on NHS . With the contract saying that "all necessary for securing dental health " treatment has to be provided you can imagine it would be hard. Can you imagine the situation where let's say builders had to build a hoise sufficient for eac oersn's needs for a fixed sum ? Can you imagine mayhem of different opinions, interpretation, nightmare to chose the surface and design and standards ?
    DairyQueen, yes the picture you paint is familiar - that is why I agreed NHS dentistry was a joke.
    Just a few details that you may have missed or seen from different perspective:
    - in gum issues the most important thing is home care. all those pesky tepe brushes etc. So at the end of the day your teeth suffered because of lack of it in the past. Not because the dentist did not explain you how important it was .
    - if your NHS dentists were to give you the standard of care you got when you p aid your money they would have gone broke. Long time ago. Hence they would not have existed .
    - precisely because of this amoral system dentists are trting to escape it whichever way they can- emigrating, retiring early , going into salaried services. You would say " why dont they open private practices then" - well , to open a practice means taking a lian a few hundreed thousand pounds, being lumbered with unbelievable amount of paperwork, gavimg to employ people and dedicate all the time one has spare in one's life to it.
    I do not condone dentists who ignore massive issues . Just trying to exolain rhe background - if one does not have the scope of work well defined and the better job one does the less money one earns the result is predictable whatever profession or trade we talking about.
    And yes I agree with purely private dentists being a more sound bet on average than mixing ones. Public needs more oeoole like you telling them to go and pay for their teeth as culturally people got conditioned they should not so they end up losing out because of ignorance and beligerant attitude " i should get it on NHS "!

    I shall shut up on a topic of dentistry now and make a promise not talk about it in this thread anymore.
    • Terron
    • By Terron 13th Jan 18, 12:27 PM
    • 134 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    Terron
    I have seen the seniors in my family (none of whom are wealthy) fork-out for: glasses that cost extra for thin lenses,
    Originally posted by DairyQueen
    Some of us have had to do that for decades I have one eye that is very bad - beyond the range of cheap lenses. Becausee it needs sucha strong lens I need extra light lenses to stop preasure on my nose being too much. So new pairs of glasses cost me around £400.
    • pennystretcher
    • By pennystretcher 14th Jan 18, 12:25 PM
    • 341 Posts
    • 1,369 Thanks
    pennystretcher
    Congrats for doing so much planning whilst so young. Couple of things about your number:

    1) - - -your figure for continuing to see/hear/eat/walk may be a tad optimistic, especially if that includes 20+ years inflation at 3% compounded. Medical gizmos that you never dreamed you would need hit the expenses list. - - - True - although my teeth are doing ok at the moment, I see my dentist regularly. Same with opticians - I've based the figure on renewing lenses every two years or so. Good point about gizmos - e.g. mobility scooter...need to look into this.

    2) That energy cost looks very low. I am expecting energy costs to rise more than inflation to fund investment in green energy, if no other reason. Also, heating costs are one of the things that will definitely rise significantly from the year that you retire.
    I did actually think about that too and maybe need to put that up to £100pm. I currently spend £35pm for both gas and electricity and that balances over the year taking winter months into account. I also have LED bulbs pretty much everywhere and have topped up the insulation in the loft.

    3) No allowance for water? Included in council tax here in Scotland. Or TV licence? At the moment I don't watch TV, may have to add that into the figure though. What about replacing things like white goods, household appliances, TV, phone? I've included that in the DIY section. I'm not big into gadgets and when replacing anything look for deals that have good manufacturer's guarantee (not paying extra for added cover however), my current phone cost £50 second hand and am not planning on replacing it before it breaks. My current TV is a dumb TV (I watch a lot of DVDs - all either bought second hand or I get as presents) and got it for free from someone who didn't need it anymore. In general I do maintain my appliances and they last for long. Although what it comes to energy ratings I know this may be false economy. (My washing machine is about 15yrs old, dishwasher about 10yrs old - I have already repaired it couple of times. Coffee machine is over 20yrs old and still going strong.) And the cost of calling in the plumber if a pipe bursts or the loo springs a leak? My insurance covers this at the moment and if the loo leaks, I can fix it myself. Clothes? I charity shop most except for shoes, socks and underwear, and don't really spend that much in that front. Pets? (current/future). No pets and unlikely to get one in the future. Then there are the other discretionary things: gifts/Christmas/holidays? Gifts/Xmas is minimal, maybe £150 over the year including Xmas food that I make from scratch. Holidays maybe £500 per year. Have included these in entertainment as I can do without. And the miscellaneous other bits/bobs: plants for the garden? Maybe few bulbs here and there, but garden is pretty much established. Christmas tree? Have a plastic one Logs for a woodburner? No woodburner Extra food for visitors? Hobbies? Costs of volunteering (there are some)? Printer supplies? I have a laser printer and the cartridge lasts for about 4 years, and costs only about £35. Obviously may have to replace it at some point, but it's been doing fine for the past 10 years. And TBH I don't really print out too many things. Indulging/helping children/grandchildren? No kids and there won't be. A miscellaneous category gives you a bit of extra wriggle-room.

    4) I would split the food from the travel and entertainment as the first isn't discretionary and it looks like the second will change when you retire. The third is definitely discretionary. I agree, I should split it into subcategories...will have a look at some point.

    When I did my analysis I separated current discretionary spends from non-discretionary. Removed everything that I wouldn't need (travel costs for work) and then applied the same 3% inflation as you to the total non-discretionary amount up to my desired retirement age. That was the figure that I aimed to achieve in guaranteed income so that all basic expenses were covered. Agree with this, will need to do a proper split between "must haves" and "would be nice"

    I then worked out three figures for discretionary spends: a) need to stay sane, LOL b) nice to have, c) wahey life is a party. Double LOL The first of these is the minimum you need to be able to drawdown in additional savings (ISAs/SIPPs/whatever). Inflation-proofed, of course. The first part is already covered in what I have in DB pensions, so working towards the b and c.

    There is also the unexpected, unlucky cost that may hit. In my case it was fighting a planning application. That was very, very costly but necessary to preserve my quality of life without having to move. If you want to have all your bases covered then you need a chunk of cash sufficient to fund such things. A car is also not a discretionary item if you live (as I do) in a rural area. Or plan to do so.
    I have a 3-bed and there is just me. (It's also my backup plan - if something happens, I can let out one of the bedrooms to get bit of extra income.) I live within walking distance of all services, so thankfully sorted in that front. Or like you mentioned above, may be cruising around in a mobility scooter when I'm older.

    Good luck with it.
    Originally posted by DairyQueen
    Thank you ps. I think I'm lucky in that my parents have always been big in "make do and mend" and taught me how to do the same - so I know how to use a sewing machine and can do a lot of the DIY stuff myself.
    Last edited by pennystretcher; 14-01-2018 at 12:43 PM.
    MFW Jan 2018 £190 (almost there!!!)
    • DairyQueen
    • By DairyQueen 14th Jan 18, 8:34 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 176 Thanks
    DairyQueen
    Looks like you've got it pretty much covered. As you have a 3-bedder then you can always use the house - equity release/downsize - if push-comes- to-shove. Also, the house is a handy source of care fees if you outlive the mobility scooter and stairlift .

    The house is our Plan B too.

    Like you I come from a mend-and-make-do clan so I have a lot of the domestic stuff covered. I make sauces, jams and chutneys, bread and cakes. A big freezer is really useful to store all the food I buy on special offer. (I can also use a sewing machine). OH somehow missed-out on his dad's DIY lessons and I draw the line at plumbing. Decorating? Yes. Plumbing? No. OH plans that his pension will cover all the jobs that he will have to pay others to do. My plan is a few courses at the local college. He will need a few hobbies when he retires
    • rebuswad
    • By rebuswad 15th Jan 18, 9:55 AM
    • 134 Posts
    • 79 Thanks
    rebuswad
    Early days for me but opinions on my strategy are appreciated, the pipe dream is to retire at 50, so want more in savings and less in pensions. Do the numbers seem broadly realistic, I’m new to long term financial planning ?

    I’m 43 and the number we’d like to retire on is about 30K net/35K gross. My number is a good bit lower (about 24K net) but left a large margin for error.

    With aggressive saving we hope to have about £300K in ISA’s at 50, and about £220K in private pension pots.

    I have a DB pension of £15K due at 60, and my wife has a DB of £7K at the same age, and also a £5K at SPA.

    So with a proposed early retirement at 50 the bigger challenge is to get to 60 when the DB’s kick in and need a smaller subsidy.

    So plan is:

    - 50-57 the £300K in ISA’s should give £30K net with maybe 100K left allowing for a 3% rise in capital pa.

    - 58-59 £220K in PP at 50 should be £270K again assuming 3% rises. Take £35K gross income for 2 years, probably the tax free lump sump actually. I’ve assumed the age that access of PP funds is allowed will rise to 58 from 55 by this time.

    - 60-67 DB’s of 22K, subsidised with 13KPP via income drawdown. The pot should be £200Kish. Should also have the £100Kish of ISA’s left.

    - 68+ extra DB of 5K start, so PP subsidy reduces to 8K, eventually to taper down in elderly years.

    edit - I've not included State Pensions taking the worst case scenario of them being means tested by then.

    Feels odd not putting more in pension pots, but I do not want to risk the government restricting access to the bulk of my money, and being forced to work longer.

    All if’s buts and maybes, but the strategy has to start somewhere. Opinions and criticism welcome.
    Last edited by rebuswad; 15-01-2018 at 2:07 PM. Reason: State Pension clarification
    • BOBS
    • By BOBS 15th Jan 18, 10:04 AM
    • 2,759 Posts
    • 2,121 Thanks
    BOBS
    Rebuswad - WOW - I am same age as you and would like to retire around 60. What do you intend doing with you days retiring at 50? I think the days would be too long and just merge into week without purpose. Yes for a short time it would be wonderful but even at 60 I wonder if I would need even a part-time voluntary job to keep me alert and motivated.
    • Stubod
    • By Stubod 15th Jan 18, 10:12 AM
    • 444 Posts
    • 296 Thanks
    Stubod
    Retiring "too early" can have problems. (we went at 59 / 58).

    MOH loves all her post work free time and has lots of interests. I on the other hand actually miss a "purpose", and while I would not want to go back to my old job as this was becoming ever more stressful I do find filling the hours a bit of a problem.

    I have managed to get a part time job (no stress) which helps and does give a "focus" to the week. I think the problem is that if you are likely to "get bored", then the temptation is to find things to do that cost you more money than you actually planned for in your "number".

    Our planned number for retirement is about £30k which is £6k up on what we actually spent while we
    were both in work. ie you have (a lot) more time to spend it.....
    Last edited by Stubod; 15-01-2018 at 10:29 AM.
    • rebuswad
    • By rebuswad 15th Jan 18, 10:15 AM
    • 134 Posts
    • 79 Thanks
    rebuswad
    Bobs -Yeah, we are very lucky to be even thinking about it. Both my wife and I have had serious ill health the past year. We are both OK now (touches wood) but it makes you appreciate your time. I'd now take a modest income with freedom sooner rather than work an extra 10 years and be rich and old.

    No problem filling the days, walking, spending time with friends, would probably do voluntary work, and maybe P/T work too. I think having the freedom would give a different mindset though.
    • westv
    • By westv 15th Jan 18, 12:17 PM
    • 4,421 Posts
    • 2,044 Thanks
    westv
    Doing a part time job would appeal to me come "the time" although I'm not quite sure what I would do. Shop work/dealing with the public has no appeal for me and I don't think my current skills can assist in any freelancing/consultancy work.
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