UPDATED: Air Source Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide, is it cheaper to run than mains gas?

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  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,036
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    zeupater wrote: »
    Hi
    Previous posts (2013 etc) described coming from a cheap Chinese made unit which the builder originally installed, to a more efficient brand (8.5kW Ecodan ?) ... if so there must be some pretty interesting technologies and materials involved in the property design in order to achieve the rate of temperature changes described, especially with a Delta-T of 35C ... we can't meet those rates of change with 30kW and a Delta-T of 50C and we're massively insulated ....

    HTH
    Z
    Well said zeupater.

    A less polite person might have said the posts were a load of rubbish; with totally unsupportable figures.

    The irony is Uclan is talking about myths!
  • Uclan
    Uclan Posts: 12 Forumite
    Those are the facts. I haven't mentioned which company manufactured my heat pump as I am nottrying to promote or sell anything. The heat pump was setby the installer on purchase. All I do is run it on temperature set at the temperatures mentioned. The water comes on twice a day in the afternoon and early morning. I have a smart meter installed which shows my electric usage. My bills are on line and a graph shows what I have used over a year. I have no reason to lie as you have said I have suffered the indignities of a cheap heat pump.
    I am not promoting a said product I am just stating facts. I do not understand how my house can be heated to 23 degrees or more if needed by radiators that are luke warm but it is. Nor do I understand how 11 rooms can be heated for less than the cost of one 2kw electric fire. But as say they say proof is in the pudding or should I say heat pump. If anyone wants to see how it works they are quite welcome to visit . I do not work for any company but realise that a product used extensively and sucessfully in Europe has no reason not to work here. I agree that it has to be sized and installed properly and that the house must be well insulated.
    Finally I
  • Uclan
    Uclan Posts: 12 Forumite
    Sorry. I wish this site would stop putting my comments up before I have checked it. Finally as I have said those are the facts . Perhaps I am just 1 of the lucky few with a successful installation. I'll take that. But cost aside if I had a choice of heat pump or mains gas in a new well insulated house I would no hesitate in choosing a heat pump, as long as it had been installed properly and was a well known make. I have had both systems and there is no comparison especially health wise.
  • Uclan
    Uclan Posts: 12 Forumite
    The heat pump is set to 17 over night and unless it is really cold does not come on til morning unless it is heating the water between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m
    As mentioned when my wife and I were both working we used to run it on the auto timed system. Please don't mention the old heat pump as I still have nightmares about that heap of sh**. The sad fact is that heat pump and similar rubbish is still for sale on Ebay and from a plumbers in the W. Midlands.
  • bazer
    bazer Posts: 3 Newbie
    Hi,, you seem to be well versed in these ASHPs, I have have several quotes, prices (that vary massively (approx. £13.000 for starters) and various sizes of HP and makes! Initially I was told a EcoDan Mits. 8.5kw was suffice. Now I have been steered towards a 11.2kw Ecodan, but the latest quote is for a Daikin 16Kw LT Split. So I ask if you feel I am getting a - ripped off (as I believe the units are approx. £5,000 Solar tank £1,500 + labour, parts etc.
    b - if there is a preference on which is a better unit EcoDan or Daikin16Kw LT Split ? I wouldn't hold you to this!!
    c - The sizing of unit seems to differ significantly!! is it better to have a oversized unit taking it steady of a lower sized unit working harder? I would assume the first option!
    Hope you can help, or anyone else Thanks Bazzer;)
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413
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    What sort of size is your house bazer in m2. Is it rads or ufh.
    The quotes you are getting seem to range from a house size of 120 m2 to one nearer 300 m2.
    A lot of this will also depend on insulation levels, double glazing etc.
    You should go slightly undersized, as this will help the pump keep peak efficiency.
    Do not know much about the pumps you mention as we mainly deal with the IVT AirX here in Italy, but believe it is also available under the WB brand in the UK. Both outclassed all the others in Nordic tests for performance and COP.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
  • Hi

    I wonder if anybody can help me, I had a completely new wet heating/hotwater system installed in December of 2014 for an Ecodan Mitsubishi 8.5kw Air source heat pump, 180L preplumb air source heat pump cyclinder 10 radiators a mixture of stelrad (4) and Milano Aruba vertical double (6).

    7 weeks ago the system showed a U1 fault and both the heating and hot water stopped working. After a number of visits the issue has boiled down to bits in the system, the water is brown and so dark it has stained the flow gauge which needed to be replaced before a reading could be taken, seems extremely odd as the system is not even 3 years old. The pipes to and from the cylinder and the heat pump have been flushed, it seems that the heat exchanger has been blocked by a build of of these bits which has caused the U1 to be triggered. Chemical has been added to break the bits down and a further limited flush to this area completed giving a flow of 10l enough for the heating and hot water to work, but it is only a matter of time before the bits build up again and the U1 returns without a proper solution. Mitsubishi have been contacted and they say it is an installtion issue, both companies are Mitsubishi registered installers.

    The installation of the system did not go at all well back in 2014 with multiple issues with the workmanship. I have moved to another company to complete the maintenance and now this investigation work. The new company think the system was not flushed before commissioning which is possible but would that have casued this issue? They are recommending a full power flush ontop of a bill for nearly £900 already. I am unsure if this is the best option as the theory is a powerflush was not completed but is that the cause or is there a lurking root cause which will just come back? The question I have is do other people think this is a sensible next step or are there alternatives I should look at before doing this? The new maintenance company has looked at getting the water tested from the system to see what the bits are but cannot find anywhere who could do this for them.

    Your advice would be very welcome to help me make the decision of the next steps to take, I have asked the original installers if they completed a powerflush and am currently awaiting their reply.
  • wrightk
    wrightk Posts: 975 Forumite
    Hi all sorry to jump in on this. Have read as much as i can on this thread. Currently live in 3 bed end terrace 1920's council property. Have been offered a heating upgrade to ashp. We are off grid and have charnwood multi fuel stove 15kw with back boiler feeding 7 rads. The details are sketchy at the moment but i presume it will be air to air aource.the building is externally rendered with external insulation and solid 12inch block walls. I wondered whether this is a suitable option? Will post more details when i get them
    Thanks
    Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe Withnail is right. We are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.
  • matelodave
    matelodave Posts: 8,586
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    edited 7 December 2017 at 9:08AM
    I doubt you'll be offered air-to-air. It will probably be an air-to-water. Is gas not available where you live?

    Hopefully by now councils & housing associations will be a bit more careful about designing heat-pump systems than they used be and wont just hang an undersized unit on the end of your existing system. The MCS specs are a lot stricter than they used to be especially if the council want to claim the RHI.

    If the system is designed properly, the place has reasonable insulation (wall, loft and double glazing) and you learn how to use it properly then there's no reason why it shouldn't be ok.

    However I guess you wont have much say about the design or what gets put in but if it was me I'd really like to have a complete system design given to me that I could get checked before I made a decision.

    My bro is in a similar postion, he lives on an estae with a centralised area heating system which is now well past it's sell by date and will not be repaired or replaced.

    He's had notification that he'll be offered an air source heat pump instead although he doesn't know how the system will be designed yet and the housing association are "still in negotiations" so he's just waiting to see what transpires.
    Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
  • wrightk
    wrightk Posts: 975 Forumite
    edited 7 December 2017 at 12:10PM
    thanks for this. it seems as if there will be a survey after xmas, then the work will proceed a week after dependent on whether we decide to proceed. I was told this morning that the system they use is 'atherma' and there is only a choice out of 3 systems and this is the one they use. they have told me it will be air to air, but then went on about having radiators in the living room, hall, bedrooms, a large ceiling one for kitchen etc so now im not sure? sorry i am a complete novice on this.
    Also told that bedrooms will be set to 18 degrees and living room 21 as standard but system can run up to 24 if needed
    i was told that there will also be a large hot water tank cited in a cupboard or worst case scenario the loft.
    i asked about reviews etc and was told when they started putting them in they had complaints about DHW not being hot enough but now have changed a valve or something to provide at least 60degrees DHW.

    Does any of this sound about right. i am completely off grid btw. no mains gas. just a 15kw multi fuel stove with DHW tank and immersion. Heat pump provides CH to 7 rads in winter. My energy usage last year was 6500kw (about £1k), this doesnt include the price of coal/kindling
    Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe Withnail is right. We are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.
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