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  • Land Registry
    Hi all,

    I'm desperately after some help deciphering something on the Register of title document on a flat I'm selling...
    In Part A, Property Register, Point 2 there is a note which reads 'The rights granted in clause 6 of the Second Schedule are excluded from this registration.'
    Clause 6 in the second schedule of my Lease states that I have an EXCLUSIVE right to park in a particular space marked on a plan of the development.
    Does this mean that the Right to Park is no longer valid?
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    Originally posted by Dallas77
    If that's the relevant clause then the right is not guaranteed through registration but excluded.

    So it's a case of it not having been validly granted at the time rather than no longer valid, as that suggests it once was.

    When a lease includes rights which cannot be included then this is the type if note made. This invariably happens when there is no evidence to back up the lessor/landlord being able to grant that right e.g. They don't own the parking space

    The devil is in the detail re such things of course so when you bought what advice did your solicitor give you re that note and the lease?
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • datostar
    • By datostar 28th Aug 17, 10:20 AM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 609 Thanks
    datostar
    You must have set up an alert against that particular title. But there's no way of checking what it is online via the website.

    When you set up the alert had you checked the title number? And are you the owner?

    Alerts are intended to notify you of applications against titles you own. The idea being that you own it so if you don't know who the applicant is then there's a possibility it might be fraudulent or an application to protect some other interest.

    Do you own the title against which the alert has been linked to?
    Originally posted by Land Registry
    Thanks for the response. I set up the alert against our house address which my wife and I own outright. I certainly didn't set up an alert for 'land adjoining' the house but that's what the LR has alerted me about. We do of course own the front, rear and side gardens. Unless someone is trying to steal our garden it can only be the Council garage block behind our back fence where we have right of access to our owned garages. As also suggested I'll check the Council Planning Portal. Of course, it might be just a change of ownership of the access area in which case presumably the access right will continue.
    • loveka
    • By loveka 28th Aug 17, 1:29 PM
    • 352 Posts
    • 338 Thanks
    loveka
    During the process of selling our house we discovered a tiny (4 foot by 2 foot) piece of land which is unregistered.

    We have lived here for 18 years and we have only ever used the piece of land (it is landlocked by other land we own)

    The next door neighbour used to have a right of way which included passing over this land (it is part of a path). The right of way was extinguished 4 years ago.

    We now have a new neighbour. He says he is going to try to claim this land from us. He thinks all the boundaries and fences are in the wrong place based on the plans, so is using this as a bargaining chip I think. It's a nightmare really. If our front boundary was where he thinks it is we wouldn't be able to walk up our front path.

    Our house sale fell through, so we now need to sort out registering this tiny piece of land. We are worried he will try to claim it. But surely as his house used to have a right of way over it then that implies he doesn't own it? The Land would be useless to him, he would have to cross our land to get to it!

    Thanks, this is causing quite a lot of distress.
  • jamesd
    Alerts are intended to notify you of applications against titles you own. The idea being that you own it so if you don't know who the applicant is then there's a possibility it might be fraudulent or an application to protect some other interest.
    Originally posted by Land Registry
    A bit of feedback on this, since it has more potential than that. Here are the titles I might sensibly monitor via this service:

    1. A currently vacant flat I own.
    2. A flat where I'm the tenant.
    3. A house owned by the estate of a parent, where I'm one of the beneficiaries of the estate.

    While I own only one of those, I have a pretty clear interest in the state of all three but not necessarily knowledge of all legitimate transactions. Hopefully the Land Registry would agree that at least for those three circumstances I have an appropriate interest.

    Beyond that, I know of people who use it for monitoring the state of properties that are being developed or are used as security in peer to peer lending. The P2P platforms are often less forthcoming than desirable so monitoring things via the Land Registry can provide useful information, including information about problems. I don't personally do this, at least not so far. Less direct personal connection but at least to me there seems to be a legitimate interest in the property to protect via monitoring.

    For the same reason it's quite routine for some lenders or groups of lenders to check the information held at the Land Registry. Partly because platforms sometimes miss things and partly because sometimes they provide inaccurate descriptions. During the duration of a loan things can change, particularly for development loans, and the monitoring is of use there, say when UN1's are filed for advance sales or when a property that is supposed to be security for a loan seems to have been sold. There's a clear financial interest in the property in these cases but it's not an ownership interest, more akin to that of a mortgage lender or prospective mortgage lender. In the P2P case each individual lender normally has a right to that property security via a contract with the borrower, with the overarching charge placed by the trust company operated by the peer to peer platform. As you've seen from our other discussion, I had a pretty clear interest in the ownership status of a property because it was an asset potentially available for debt recovery and the risk of an inappropriate or illegal transaction came from the owner of the property.

    Perhaps room here to consider the broader range of interests beyond pure direct ownership that apply and how the already very useful service can assist in protecting those more disparate interests.

    In the P2P case I don't know how those doing it deal with the ten property limit, I suppose multiple accounts or monitoring just the properties where they have the greatest loss exposure. The amounts at stake can vary greatly between lenders, from a few Pounds to in excess of a hundred thousand Pounds per property, with most at the lower end. While I wonder whether a charging service might be useful I think that a charge might discourage too many users. Yet the Land Registry faces significant cost control and revenue making pressure, at least judging from press reports, so maybe something would be appropriate beyond some use limits. A way to get more information than the current reports, given the lack fof direct ownership, might also be a useful incentive to pay some modest charge to get routine access to that information.

    With regard to the previous system that required things like photo-identification of property owners, I was interested because I owned a vacant flat that presented a fraud risk. But the photo-identification requirement caused me to decline to use it and provide feedback on this to the Land Registry. I was very glad to see the change to the current system and used it to protect that property as soon as I learned about it.

    Some of the uses I've described are quite different from actual ownership but all seem to have a legitimate interest of some kind, some of them fraud risk mitigation, others not.
    Last edited by jamesd; 28-08-2017 at 2:18 PM.
  • Land Registry
    During the process of selling our house we discovered a tiny (4 foot by 2 foot) piece of land which is unregistered.

    We have lived here for 18 years and we have only ever used the piece of land (it is landlocked by other land we own)

    The next door neighbour used to have a right of way which included passing over this land (it is part of a path). The right of way was extinguished 4 years ago.

    We now have a new neighbour. He says he is going to try to claim this land from us. He thinks all the boundaries and fences are in the wrong place based on the plans, so is using this as a bargaining chip I think. It's a nightmare really. If our front boundary was where he thinks it is we wouldn't be able to walk up our front path.

    Our house sale fell through, so we now need to sort out registering this tiny piece of land. We are worried he will try to claim it. But surely as his house used to have a right of way over it then that implies he doesn't own it? The Land would be useless to him, he would have to cross our land to get to it!

    Thanks, this is causing quite a lot of distress.
    Originally posted by loveka
    Loveka - our PG 5 explains how to make an application to register a claim of unregistered land. I'd also recommend getitng legal advice

    As you state a right of way for one property over a piece of land could indicate that teh owner of that land does not own it. However rights can be granted and then land can change hands so I don't think it is always that clear cut.

    I would recommend focussing on your own claim/application as if the neighbour make no such application his 'claim' may well simply be a bargaining chip as you suggest
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Schof
    • By Schof 29th Aug 17, 2:13 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Schof
    Hi, I wonder if the Land registry can help me in my query please?
    I am looking to purchase a property, which consists of a house, buildings and land. I would like to purchase the house and buildings with a mortgage and the land with savings. I believe the property is all one title at present and therefore I would need to split the land into a separate title in order to purchase it. Obviously this would need to be requested by the current owner prior to me selling but it is agreed that I will pay all costs.

    Herein lies my question, how easy and how much will this cost to carry out? Also how long will it take? Does this require solicitors or is this something that can be carried out by the vendor/ myself?

    Any information would be enormously helpful.

    Many Thanks in advance.
  • Land Registry
    Hi, I wonder if the Land registry can help me in my query please?
    I am looking to purchase a property, which consists of a house, buildings and land. I would like to purchase the house and buildings with a mortgage and the land with savings. I believe the property is all one title at present and therefore I would need to split the land into a separate title in order to purchase it. Obviously this would need to be requested by the current owner prior to me selling but it is agreed that I will pay all costs.

    Herein lies my question, how easy and how much will this cost to carry out? Also how long will it take? Does this require solicitors or is this something that can be carried out by the vendor/ myself?

    Any information would be enormously helpful.

    Many Thanks in advance.
    Originally posted by Schof
    Schof - the need to split does not always exist but I am guessing that your mortgage lender has said that is what they want here.There is though no reason why you cannot for example secure the loan against part only of a registered title.

    If the current owner applied to split the title they would need to supply a suitable plan defining the split and paying a £40 registration fee. The application form would be an AP1

    They would also have to explain the reason for requesting the split in a covering letter. There is no need to use a solicitor.

    Currently we have a backlog of work involving the creation of new registered titles. As such, and as this type of applicaiton can be seen as unnecessary, from a registration perspective, we may refuse.

    The alternative is for the seller to Transfer say the mortgage part to you first and the remainder second. If that was the option used here I would recommend using a solicitor to ensure that the necessary legalities are covered including the contract re the second transfer.

    Applications involving the creation of a new title are currently taking on average 57 working days
    Last edited by Land Registry; 29-08-2017 at 3:35 PM.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • WelshKitty85
    • By WelshKitty85 30th Aug 17, 4:20 PM
    • 642 Posts
    • 5,758 Thanks
    WelshKitty85
    Could the Land Registry please advise what the current wait time is for title plans to be updated? There was a dispute over a strip of land next to a house we are purchasing. I understand that the seller and their neighbour have reached an agreement and that the paperwork was sent early last week. We were planning to complete around 10th September, but have been told it may be closer to the 22nd now due to delays with the land registry.
    Battling my final debt:
    Credit card - £4844.62(Dec 16) £2835.02
  • Land Registry
    Could the Land Registry please advise what the current wait time is for title plans to be updated? There was a dispute over a strip of land next to a house we are purchasing. I understand that the seller and their neighbour have reached an agreement and that the paperwork was sent early last week. We were planning to complete around 10th September, but have been told it may be closer to the 22nd now due to delays with the land registry.
    Originally posted by WelshKitty85
    It doesn't sound like a routine application so assessing a wait time is very difficult.
    I woukd suggest that the lodging solicitor gets in touch with us with details of the onward sale and ask us to expedite the process.
    If it can be done without having to notify any affected parties then the wait time can be a lot shorter.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Mikecolly
    • By Mikecolly 31st Aug 17, 8:14 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Mikecolly
    Fence panels and boundary line with deeds
    Hi all

    Recently my wife spoke to the neighbours they told her they were doing their garden.

    During conversation they said we will be getting a new fence panel even though it wasn't needed just out of choice by them. I said tone neighbourly ok we will go half.

    To our surprise he replaced the fence panels withy the good side now facing him this was never asked or agreed.

    We were going on holiday so I said I will tell him when we get back that when I am painting it I will turn them back around which I did.

    We paid half and I have turned most of the fence around painted it he has been round demanding it turns back telling me he initiated the work so he can change them round.

    I went round shown him the title deeds I have in my paperwork as it is leasehold stating the southwestly boundary is our fence to maintain.

    He has been back round with a land registry document which suggests its shared however it didn't have any dimensions or anything to do with the deeds designed in may 1953 which I had shown him. He then throws my money back at me. Insisting he is right and that he initiated the work.

    To be honest want to avoid any long process or court fees as I simply want the fence panels to be back facing the way they were originally. I don't want to have the entire back garden staring at the back of three boundary lines fences when that one was originally acing me.

    Advice please
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 31st Aug 17, 8:32 AM
    • 13,965 Posts
    • 37,948 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    Hi all

    Recently my wife spoke to the neighbours they told her they were doing their garden.

    During conversation they said we will be getting a new fence panel even though it wasn't needed just out of choice by them. I said tone neighbourly ok we will go half.

    To our surprise he replaced the fence panels withy the good side now facing him this was never asked or agreed.

    We were going on holiday so I said I will tell him when we get back that when I am painting it I will turn them back around which I did.

    We paid half and I have turned most of the fence around painted it he has been round demanding it turns back telling me he initiated the work so he can change them round.

    I went round shown him the title deeds I have in my paperwork as it is leasehold stating the southwestly boundary is our fence to maintain.

    He has been back round with a land registry document which suggests its shared however it didn't have any dimensions or anything to do with the deeds designed in may 1953 which I had shown him. He then throws my money back at me. Insisting he is right and that he initiated the work.

    To be honest want to avoid any long process or court fees as I simply want the fence panels to be back facing the way they were originally. I don't want to have the entire back garden staring at the back of three boundary lines fences when that one was originally acing me.

    Advice please
    Originally posted by Mikecolly
    Not so much a Land Registry question per se imo.

    The norm is to give the good side of a fence to the neighbour and it's certainly what I would do myself (partly because that's what I have been used to seeing people do).

    But there is no legal requirement to "do the right thing" and there are some people that don't. Giving the wrong side to the neighbour is more prevalent in some areas than others I've noticed.

    So - I doubt there's anything you can do to get him to "do the right thing" and will be stuck with those fence panels being the wrong way round. In those circumstances that he has done that - then it's up to him to pay 100% of the cost for them - as you've not been taken into account at all.

    I've had a neighbour do that to me (ie put up a fence wrong side to me) and was gobsmacked at them doing that and thought "They must know the norm surely??" but all I could do was decide they must have done that deliberately to be nasty and then hide it from myself (which I've done to some extent) and I shall be adding to the "disguise" of it with a VERY vigorous plant growing all over it...
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 31-08-2017 at 8:52 AM.
    #MeToo

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    • cajef
    • By cajef 31st Aug 17, 1:28 PM
    • 4,553 Posts
    • 3,617 Thanks
    cajef
    "They must know the norm surely??"...
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    There is no such thing as a 'norm' or a right or wrong side of a fence, how people can get upset and talk about going to court over the way a fence is facing is beyond me.
    I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.
    • DigForVictory
    • By DigForVictory 1st Sep 17, 11:32 PM
    • 7,158 Posts
    • 19,511 Thanks
    DigForVictory
    I got a land registry alert this morning, saying "application lodged by <bank name> ...
    customer reference AUTO APPN(DIS)"

    Before I start asking elderly relative if all is well, could you outline what this means? As I sincerely hesitate to accuse family of potential elder abuse (or spook elderly relative that I 'watch over him' thus).

    Sorry to be so ignorant but Google didn't have the answer as to what it might be.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 2nd Sep 17, 12:15 PM
    • 41,950 Posts
    • 48,553 Thanks
    G_M
    I assume the property belongs to the elderly relative?

    It sounds like a mortgage has been taken out on the property.
    • DigForVictory
    • By DigForVictory 2nd Sep 17, 4:17 PM
    • 7,158 Posts
    • 19,511 Thanks
    DigForVictory
    Yes, it's elderly relative's home, but I've no clarity as to what a lodged auto appn is...

    Twitching, slightly.
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 2nd Sep 17, 5:00 PM
    • 36,050 Posts
    • 152,272 Thanks
    silvercar
    AUTO APPN(DIS)

    Could be automatic application to discharge.....a mortgage that has been cleared? Only guessing from the initials.

    On the other hand, putting AUTO APPN (DIS) into google throws up this page: https://www.gov.uk/registering-land-or-property-with-land-registry/update-or-correct-the-register which suggests it may be as innocent as adding a contact address to the property registration.
    • tauruswine
    • By tauruswine 2nd Sep 17, 8:25 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    tauruswine
    Part exchange query
    Hi. We are due to complete on the purchase of a part exchange property this week but have hit stalemate. The builders purchased the property from the vendors in a part exchange deal but have not registered the purchase at the land registry and want to sell to us as power of attorney for the previous owners. Our solicitor says this is not correct as if they purchased the property then they must register this at the Land Registry as the power of attorneys are useless as they no longer own the property. Any advice welcomed. Thanks
  • Land Registry
    Yes, it's elderly relative's home, but I've no clarity as to what a lodged auto appn is...

    Twitching, slightly.
    Originally posted by DigForVictory
    Most likely a discharge of their mortgage - do they have a mortgage?
    Last edited by Land Registry; 04-09-2017 at 6:15 AM.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Land Registry
    Hi. We are due to complete on the purchase of a part exchange property this week but have hit stalemate. The builders purchased the property from the vendors in a part exchange deal but have not registered the purchase at the land registry and want to sell to us as power of attorney for the previous owners. Our solicitor says this is not correct as if they purchased the property then they must register this at the Land Registry as the power of attorneys are useless as they no longer own the property. Any advice welcomed. Thanks
    Originally posted by tauruswine
    Unsure what other advice can be given here - if the property was part exchanged and a legal transfer/exchange completed then presumably that does need to be registered.

    If they just transferred the one property so in essence the owner now owns both and they then gave the builder POA then reads as if the builder could transfer.

    But your solicitor will know so that's the advice to follow
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • jamesd
    Land Registry, would you be kind enough to post a reply to this post explaining how to get the current Land registry state of a property?

    I have a feeling that it'll turn out that the proper transfers either on death or in dealing with the estate of the deceased father weren't done and it'll be critical to know the ownership structure before the death and now to check the CGT situation.
    Last edited by jamesd; 04-09-2017 at 10:58 AM.
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