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  • Makus
    Thanks for the reply, that's really useful and should help me calculate, if I only knew how!

    Is there a way to calculate how much heat loss in KW there is from a room? I can measure the temperature inside and outside after say a one hour period or something? Then somehow work out how much heat has been lost from that?

    The problem I have is that as oil is so expensive, we currently run our heating for 8 hours a day and it costs us over £2000 per year (£160 a month isn't quite covering it), so even if the Fischer system (13.5KW in total) ran for the same 8 hours a day and was on constantly (which I'm guessing it would not be) then at say £0.12/KWHr cost for electricity then that would cost £2358 which is about the same as the oil is currently! - Is that correct or am I missing something?

    I know everyone says electricity is expensive but compared to what we are paying out in oil I'm not sure it is! Our oil has gone up 60% in two years! I'm sure if gas had gone up by the same there would be an uproar! At one point last year our oil had gone up 100% in a year (was 0.35/ltr two and a half years ago, peaked at 0.70 last year and is now 0.60/ltr).

    Any help with calculating heat loss would be great.

    :-(
  • grahamc2003
    Thanks for the reply, that's really useful and should help me calculate, if I only knew how!

    Is there a way to calculate how much heat loss in KW there is from a room? I can measure the temperature inside and outside after say a one hour period or something? Then somehow work out how much heat has been lost from that?

    The problem I have is that as oil is so expensive, we currently run our heating for 8 hours a day and it costs us over £2000 per year (£160 a month isn't quite covering it), so even if the Fischer system (13.5KW in total) ran for the same 8 hours a day and was on constantly (which I'm guessing it would not be) then at say £0.12/KWHr cost for electricity then that would cost £2358 which is about the same as the oil is currently! - Is that correct or am I missing something?

    I know everyone says electricity is expensive but compared to what we are paying out in oil I'm not sure it is! Our oil has gone up 60% in two years! I'm sure if gas had gone up by the same there would be an uproar! At one point last year our oil had gone up 100% in a year (was 0.35/ltr two and a half years ago, peaked at 0.70 last year and is now 0.60/ltr).

    Any help with calculating heat loss would be great.

    :-(
    Originally posted by Makus
    There are ways of estimating heat loss for a certain inside and outside temperature - I had it done when I had a survey for a heatpump system. Seemed very involved to me.

    I would estimate it a different way. You know how much oil you've used in say the last year, you can look up the number of kwh in a litre of oil, you can estimate the efficiency of your boiler (60% if old? 80% if new?), so it's easy to get an idea of the number of kwh you need each year. Simply multiply that by your unit rate to get the (rough) electrcity cost.

    Incidentally, the rough cost of electricity will be the same for whatever electric heater you use on day rates - the expensive Fischer ones will have the same running costs as a cheap fan heater (whatever Fischer tells you in their sales blurb).

    To get the approx storage heater cost, add 10-15% to the kwh calculated above (to allow for a slightly different room temperature profile - basically typically a little warmer between 00:00 and 07:00), and multiply that by the economy seven cheap rate.
  • jalexa
    Is there a way to calculate how much heat loss in KW there is from a room?
    Originally posted by Makus
    If you Google "heat loss calculator" you will find several links.
  • Makus
    There are ways of estimating heat loss for a certain inside and outside temperature - I had it done when I had a survey for a heatpump system. Seemed very involved to me.

    I would estimate it a different way. You know how much oil you've used in say the last year, you can look up the number of kwh in a litre of oil, you can estimate the efficiency of your boiler (60% if old? 80% if new?), so it's easy to get an idea of the number of kwh you need each year. Simply multiply that by your unit rate to get the (rough) electrcity cost.

    Incidentally, the rough cost of electricity will be the same for whatever electric heater you use on day rates - the expensive Fischer ones will have the same running costs as a cheap fan heater (whatever Fischer tells you in their sales blurb).

    To get the approx storage heater cost, add 10-15% to the kwh calculated above (to allow for a slightly different room temperature profile - basically typically a little warmer between 00:00 and 07:00), and multiply that by the economy seven cheap rate.
    Originally posted by grahamc2003
    That makes sense and seems an easy way of calculating it. So looking at a few places it seems that heating oil gives approx. 10KW per litre so allowing for a 70% efficient boiler (it's not old but not new) then I'm getting 7KW per litre. We are using 3600 litres per year, so that's 25,200 KW per year (wow!)... So multiply that by £0.12 for electricity and I get £3024 per year (actually my rate is currently £0.09 per KW but I doubt that will remain after the first year).

    Does that sound as though my calculations are correct?

    With regard to the Fischer radiators compared with say a cheap oil filled radiator.. Would the fact that the surface area is larger on the Fischer ones mean that more heat is radiated from it (in the same way that a car radiator dispels heat efficiently because it has a large surface area) or does that not make any difference?

    Has anyone actually bought any of them and can give some feedback?

    Thanks again for all the help so far in my mission :-)
  • Lungho
    How much are Fischer-Future Heat Radiators ?
    This is my newbie debut.
    I am very pleased to read all the info regarding the Fischer-Future Heat Radiators. Collectively you have raised doubts about the claims of cost and efficiency, except one who appears to have raised doubts about whether an employee or not. If I were to buy one for our very small conservatory it would only be used in winter time occasionally so what I am looking for it must be switched on and warm up speedily, safely, healthier and to a degree economically. Issues such as opening and closing the conservatory doors for the dog are an obvious blight to your calculations.

    My main question is :
    How much are Fischer-Future Heat Radiators ?
  • simong1983
    my wifes grandparents have just had a qoute off fischer for the radiators. for THREE radiators total £4088 with a 15% saving, already knocked off,

    why are people relutant to say the price they cost,

    [text deleted by MSE Forum Team]
    Last edited by MSE Investigator; 02-07-2013 at 10:17 AM.
  • jalexa
    my wifes grandparents have just had a qoute off fischer for the radiators. for THREE radiators total £4088
    Originally posted by simong1983
    And there is another thing, these do not have "storage capacity" similar to traditional UK storage radiators. The price is predicated on them being plugged in to sockets using (mostly) day rate electricity.
  • carlover
    All you Experts ??? Are missing a big point.

    "older" people are in all day by 10am in the morning the place is cold from the E7s being off so they are putting on Electric fires to keep warm.Very expensive.

    The salesman will bring in a heater and demonstrate by putting it on for 10 minutes ,its very hot. Take the plug out and after 15 minutes feel again and its even hotter ,that is why its only on for 15 minutes every hour.
    These other experts who say buy a cheap £20 job and its the same output ,gee whizz ,of course it is but turn it off and how quickly does it get cold ,in seconds probably.

    You can buy £400 Electric heaters ,woopee do ,open them up ,no Chamotte,no tungsten element ,and thermosts IN the radiator ,no wonder its a lot cheaper.

    To the person who reckons they get bought in for £250 ,well maybe but the company over here has to spend £40,000 a week in advertising. Plus all other overheads ,its a real world out there.

    Frightened of the price ?
    When you sell a High Ticket price product you have to justify the value of it ,the whys and wherefores.Thats selling ,what is wrong with that.Just telling someone a heater is £1500 ,a reflex reaction would be no thanks ,show that person WHY and they may make an informed decision one way or another.But the rooms have to be measured anyway so a from to ...is not easy anyway.

    A night storage heater 3.5 Kw will cost 17.5p an hour and at 10am in the morning if you are in the house during the winter it will be cold.Awaste of time.

    A fischer system will cost around 1/4 of that and give you heat when you want it delivered in a way that you want.

    Wish you well.
    Last edited by carlover; 10-10-2012 at 2:38 PM.
    • Ada3050
    • By Ada3050 10th Oct 12, 2:58 PM
    • 229 Posts
    • 211 Thanks
    Ada3050
    All you Experts ??? Are missing a big point.

    "older" people are in all day by 10am in the morning the place is cold from the E7s being off so they are putting on Electric fires to keep warm.Very expensive.
    Originally posted by carlover
    That's just plain wrong, my storage heaters are still nice and toasty at 10am, one of the reasons why I like them.
    Know the difference between what you WANT and what you NEED.
    • macman
    • By macman 10th Oct 12, 4:20 PM
    • 41,351 Posts
    • 17,001 Thanks
    macman
    Storage heaters cold by 10am? How can that be, when they are typically charging overnight until maybe 7am or whenever the cheap rate ends in your region?
    Night storage heaters are particularly suitable for elderly/retired people for just this reason.
    It's 10pm at night when they are more likely to have fully discharged.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop
  • jalexa
    and thermosts IN the radiator ,no wonder its a lot cheaper.
    Originally posted by carlover
    You need to understand that "thermostats IN the radiator" act as energy controllers not absolute temperature controllers, a perfectly valid mode of operation which allows users to select a suitable (for them) setting.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 10th Oct 12, 5:33 PM
    • 27,031 Posts
    • 13,157 Thanks
    Cardew
    All you Experts ??? Are missing a big point.

    "older" people are in all day by 10am in the morning the place is cold from the E7s being off so they are putting on Electric fires to keep warm.Very expensive.

    The salesman will bring in a heater and demonstrate by putting it on for 10 minutes ,its very hot. Take the plug out and after 15 minutes feel again and its even hotter ,that is why its only on for 15 minutes every hour.
    These other experts who say buy a cheap £20 job and its the same output ,gee whizz ,of course it is but turn it off and how quickly does it get cold ,in seconds probably.

    You can buy £400 Electric heaters ,woopee do ,open them up ,no Chamotte,no tungsten element ,and thermosts IN the radiator ,no wonder its a lot cheaper.

    To the person who reckons they get bought in for £250 ,well maybe but the company over here has to spend £40,000 a week in advertising. Plus all other overheads ,its a real world out there.

    Frightened of the price ?
    When you sell a High Ticket price product you have to justify the value of it ,the whys and wherefores.Thats selling ,what is wrong with that.Just telling someone a heater is £1500 ,a reflex reaction would be no thanks ,show that person WHY and they may make an informed decision one way or another.But the rooms have to be measured anyway so a from to ...is not easy anyway.

    A night storage heater 3.5 Kw will cost 17.5p an hour and at 10am in the morning if you are in the house during the winter it will be cold.Awaste of time.

    A fischer system will cost around 1/4 of that and give you heat when you want it delivered in a way that you want.

    Wish you well.
    Originally posted by carlover

    That is about the most stupid, ill-informed post on MSE in years.

    You appear to think that your heaters defy the laws of physics.

    Regardless of the type of electrical heater, you get out exactly the same amount of heat, for the same consumption of electricity.

    If a heater retains heat after the power is switched off(like an oil/clay filled radiator, or one of your overpriced heaters) it will give out heat at a slower rate initially.

    If you have a £10 fan heater from Argos it will produce almost 'instant' heat, but no residual heat when power is switched off.

    So for, say, consumption of 1kWh the fan heater will produce exactly the same amount of heat(measured by whatever means you like -Joules/calories) as your heaters will for the same 1kWh.

    [text deleted by MSE Forum Team]

    The volume of the room could be given over the phone - but that is just one factor. With electrical heaters, having a larger output heater costs no more to run than a smaller heater. To maintain the desired temperature in a room a 3kW heater will run for 50% of the time that a 1.5kWh will run and hence the overall consumption will be the same.

    Your post is a disgrace!
    Last edited by MSE Investigator; 09-07-2013 at 2:48 PM.
    • YorksClare
    • By YorksClare 10th Oct 12, 7:29 PM
    • 46 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    YorksClare

    The problem I have is that as oil is so expensive, we currently run our heating for 8 hours a day and it costs us over £2000 per year (£160 a month isn't quite covering it), so even if the Fischer system (13.5KW in total) ran for the same 8 hours a day and was on constantly (which I'm guessing it would not be) then at say £0.12/KWHr cost for electricity then that would cost £2358 which is about the same as the oil is currently! - Is that correct or am I missing something?


    :-(
    Originally posted by Makus
    The difference is that the Fischer systems are supposed to run not for 8 hours a day, but by switching on and off throughout the day to achieve a steady room temperature. So they might be on for only eight hours in a day, but if the weather got colder (in a badly insulated room) or someone left a window open, they could be going at full chat for the whole 24 hours.

    Did the salesman suggest that you have heaters in places not currently served by your oil system? This might have made it harder to compare what you have now with what he proposed. How many rooms were included, and what rating did he recommend for each?

    I really want to find out definitive information about these products myself, both in terms of testing and profiling of the sorts of rooms and kWh ratings required to achieve the results they claim, and in something as simple as a blummin' price list.

    I only use half the night storage heaters in my house (and consequently only half the house in winter) because it is too darned expensive to use them all. They are about 26 years old, and I refuse to buy new storage heaters if there is a better alternative out there. I just wish I could find the information I need...

    To all manufacturers, you would get more custom if you were more open about these things. I even found this blog on a company website decrying the "double glazing salesman" technique of hiding prices and insisting on direct (pressure) selling:

    http://www.ecopowerheating.co.uk/2012/08/electric-heating-from-germany-its-all-the-same-right/

    But if you search through their website, they don't give any proper price lists themselves! Talk about cheek Practice what you preach, guys.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 10th Oct 12, 8:13 PM
    • 6,327 Posts
    • 4,759 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    All you Experts ??? Are missing a big point.

    "older" people are in all day by 10am in the morning the place is cold from the E7s being off so they are putting on Electric fires to keep warm.Very expensive.

    The salesman will bring in a heater and demonstrate by putting it on for 10 minutes ,its very hot. Take the plug out and after 15 minutes feel again and its even hotter ,that is why its only on for 15 minutes every hour.
    These other experts who say buy a cheap £20 job and its the same output ,gee whizz ,of course it is but turn it off and how quickly does it get cold ,in seconds probably.

    You can buy £400 Electric heaters ,woopee do ,open them up ,no Chamotte,no tungsten element ,and thermosts IN the radiator ,no wonder its a lot cheaper.

    To the person who reckons they get bought in for £250 ,well maybe but the company over here has to spend £40,000 a week in advertising. Plus all other overheads ,its a real world out there.

    Frightened of the price ?
    When you sell a High Ticket price product you have to justify the value of it ,the whys and wherefores.Thats selling ,what is wrong with that.Just telling someone a heater is £1500 ,a reflex reaction would be no thanks ,show that person WHY and they may make an informed decision one way or another.But the rooms have to be measured anyway so a from to ...is not easy anyway.

    A night storage heater 3.5 Kw will cost 17.5p an hour and at 10am in the morning if you are in the house during the winter it will be cold.Awaste of time.

    A fischer system will cost around 1/4 of that and give you heat when you want it delivered in a way that you want.

    Wish you well.
    Originally posted by carlover
    I went to see the doctor this morning, and said :

    - - - can I have some sleeping tablets for the wife
    - - - the doctor said to me - what's wrong with the wife
    - - - I said .. .. she woke up !

    See carlover - I can tell jokes too, I wish you well carlover.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 10th Oct 12, 8:30 PM
    • 27,031 Posts
    • 13,157 Thanks
    Cardew


    I really want to find out definitive information about these products myself, both in terms of testing and profiling of the sorts of rooms and kWh ratings required to achieve the results they claim, and in something as simple as a blummin' price list.

    I only use half the night storage heaters in my house (and consequently only half the house in winter) because it is too darned expensive to use them all. They are about 26 years old, and I refuse to buy new storage heaters if there is a better alternative out there. I just wish I could find the information I need...
    Originally posted by YorksClare
    The 'definitive information' is without question that these heaters give out EXACTLY the same amount of heat, for the same kWh consumed, as any other heater, from Granny's old 1/2/3/ bar fire, a £10 fan heater, a £20 oil filled radiator or a £1,000 radiator filled with any substance known to man, made from any substance known to man, and coated with any substance made to man.

    Every fan heater/radiator(not granny's fire!!) has a thermostat. Plug in programable sockets - even remote controls can be bought for a few pounds.

    The above is unquestionable fact. So if you are getting rid of storage heaters(not a good idea IMO) then all you need to do is search for heaters that you find would suit your property.

    http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/shop/acatalog/Electric_Radiators.html

    If you think storage heaters expensive to run, prepare for a shock if you buy heaters that run on daytime electricity rates.

    [text deleted by MSE Forum Team]
    Last edited by MSE Investigator; 09-07-2013 at 2:49 PM.
    • macman
    • By macman 10th Oct 12, 9:49 PM
    • 41,351 Posts
    • 17,001 Thanks
    macman
    Modern storage heaters are considerably more controllable than those of 1980's vintage.
    Oil CH is expensive, no question, but ripping it out and replacing it with any conventional form of all-electric heating would not only push running costs higher, but also considerably diminish the value of the property.
    Last edited by macman; 10-10-2012 at 9:51 PM.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop
  • carlover
    Your £20 heater ,turn it on as soon turn it off and after 30 seconds your back to square one, cold.

    [text deleted by MSE Forum Team]

    Incredible.
    Last edited by MSE Investigator; 24-07-2013 at 10:19 AM.
  • grahamc2003
    Your £20 heater ,turn it on as soon turn it off and after 30 seconds your back to square one, cold.
    Originally posted by carlover
    [text deleted by MSE Forum Team]

    Oh, and I have lots of storage heaters, and at 10am they are very hot, and not cold as you perversley stated. And because mine are only 20 years old, and therefore the thin, 'modern' type with decent control of input and output and correctly sized for the rooms they are in, they are almost always still hot at 10pm if fully charged the night before.

    For your fischer heaters to give out the same amount of heat as my storage heaters, the cost would be approx twice the cost (since mine work on cheap nightime rates, and yours work on full priced high day rates). [text deleted by MSE Forum Team]
    Last edited by MSE Investigator; 24-07-2013 at 10:21 AM.
    • saxonrosecliff
    • By saxonrosecliff 15th Oct 12, 4:01 PM
    • 590 Posts
    • 1,025 Thanks
    saxonrosecliff
    This is a bit unrelated to Fischer's storage heaters but is my experience of the company.

    I applied for a job with them as an Admin Assistant (advert said general office duties with a small amount of telephone work). I went along to an interview and at the end was told that the Admin Assistant post was no longer available but they did have vacancies in their call centre. She wanted me to start the following day (I was unemployed at the time) but couldn't give me any details of the terms and conditions such as pay, hours etc which rang alarm bells with me. Due to a long term health condition I can't do call centre work which I explained to her. At this point she got incredibly rude and basically said I should accept any job and be grateful to her for offering it to me. Due to her attitude I turned her down and walked out.

    This was a Friday. I spent the whole weekend worrying about what I had done and what my advisor at the job centre would say. I had an appointment on the Monday. I explained everything to her. She said she had come across these people (her words) before and said something about breaching job centre rules but wouldn't elaborate any further but said she would make a note.

    [text deleted by MSE Forum Team]
    Last edited by MSE Investigator; 09-07-2013 at 2:51 PM.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 15th Oct 12, 7:48 PM
    • 27,031 Posts
    • 13,157 Thanks
    Cardew

    Buy the way I sold 36 heaters last week in the Oxfordshire area and the company is turning over a million a month.
    ....
    Originally posted by carlover

    Frankly I don't know if you lack any form of electrical knowledge, are
    devious, or simply trolling for an effect.
    My money would be that all three apply!

    Definitely the first, probably the third!
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