Summoned to court by Northern Rail!!!

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  • DomRavioli
    DomRavioli Posts: 3,136
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    wealdroam wrote: »
    The OP followed my advice in post #3, and has had a much more tolerant response 'over there'.

    DomRavioli, I invite you to join that thread.

    I really do have better things to do than join yet ANOTHER forum.
  • DomRavioli
    DomRavioli Posts: 3,136
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    Please spell out how OP was meant to buy a ticket from an empty ticket office?

    OP stated there were staff, who were performing care taking duties - surely any normal person would have gone up to them and asked them to man the ticket office.

    Happens all the time at my station, and again, ignorance or stupidity isn't an adequate defence; the OP has gone to another forum so please stop replying to this, it really is spamming my inbox.
  • ThumbRemote
    ThumbRemote Posts: 4,614
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    DomRavioli wrote: »
    OP stated there were staff, who were performing care taking duties - surely any normal person would have gone up to them and asked them to man the ticket office.

    No they didn't. They said they have seen staff around the station since that date.
    DomRavioli wrote: »
    Happens all the time at my station, and again, ignorance or stupidity isn't an adequate defence; the OP has gone to another forum so please stop replying to this, it really is spamming my inbox.

    It is hardly everyone else's fault that you can't set up email notifications properly.
  • maurice28
    maurice28 Posts: 310
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    A similar thing happened to me with Northern Rail, where there was a huge queue at the ticket office and a malfunctioning ticket machine at the station I get on at. No conductor came round to sell tickets and I was pulled out of the queue at Manchester Victoria while waiting to pay and given a Failure to Pay notice.

    I took it on the chin and paid the standard penalty fare, but what annoyed me was why Northern Rail allow conductors to sell tickets to people on board trains when they have got on at manned stations. Surely that's encouraging people to get on without a ticket and inviting them to break the bylaw?
  • katejo
    katejo Posts: 3,775
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    I personally have every sympathy with the OP and think that DomRavioli was very harsh. How long is someone reasonably expected to wait in a queue at a ticket office if there is no sign of any staff member returning? Should the OP or any other passenger be expected to wait for more than 15 mins when the office is empty? Was anyone else in the queue? She would have lost her place if she had gone to find a staff member. She was worried about arriving late for a new job which would have given a bad impression. Would the new employer have believed her 'story'? She went straight to the ticket office on arrival. I hope the court throws it straight out of the window (assuming that the story given is accurate). I haven't used Norhern Rail except for an occasional short journey).
  • katejo
    katejo Posts: 3,775
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    maurice28 wrote: »
    A similar thing happened to me with Northern Rail, where there was a huge queue at the ticket office and a malfunctioning ticket machine at the station I get on at. No conductor came round to sell tickets and I was pulled out of the queue at Manchester Victoria while waiting to pay and given a Failure to Pay notice.

    I took it on the chin and paid the standard penalty fare, but what annoyed me was why Northern Rail allow conductors to sell tickets to people on board trains when they have got on at manned stations. Surely that's encouraging people to get on without a ticket and inviting them to break the bylaw?

    Many stations on Network South east have a penalty fare machine so you can buy a token ticket for a nominal amount, perhaps £2 if the main machine is out of order and the ticket office is closed. This demonstrates an attempt to buy one
    . You pay the difference when a guard or ticket inspector comes along or when you arrive at your destination.
  • Plead not guilty and state your case in court. Seems to me that you made every effort to buy a ticket.

    Why should you miss your train because they cannot be bothered to man a ticket office at rush hour.

    I'd ask for the CCTV footage of the day in question, both of you trying to buy a ticket at the station and you attempting to buy one at Victoria. What if the guy hadn;t turned up for work to sell tickets, can nobody get on the train?

    I don't think it reasonable to be at a station an hour before your train so you have time to find someone to buy a ticket.

    I'd go to court, the summons is to scare you into paying
  • Stigy
    Stigy Posts: 1,581
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    edited 26 March 2014 at 6:01PM
    sgtivypie wrote: »
    Hi everyone,

    yesterday I received a court summons from Northern Rail for not purchasing a ticket back in October. They have stated that they are claiming the £5.60 fare plus £100 compensation. I haven't received any penalty notices or anything like that since the incident in October. I have been asked to tick one of 3 options on the form:
    1. I accept the evidence and plead guilty, and would like the court to deal with the matter in my absence. Also that I submit a statement of mitigation and financial circumstances.
    2. I accept the evidence and plead guilty, and will attend court.
    3. I intend to plead not guilty. The case will be adjourned until a new hearing date when witnesses/solicitor can attend.

    Hi,

    Ignore what anybody is saying about the Conditions of Carriage...If just for a few minutes. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage are important, but cannot form the basis of a criminal prosecution, such as this. It's the Railway Byelaws which state you must buy a ticket before travelling as long as there's places to purchase one, no staff member gives permission to board without one and/or there's no signage instructing you to buy on board or at destination etc.

    Unless I'm missing something here, intent to avoid payment was never mentioned by Northern in this case? That being the case, I'm assuming they wish to prosecute using Railway Byelaw 18, all they need to prove is that you didn't have a valid ticket although you have opportunity to purchase one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not disputing this, are you?

    Now back to the Conditions of Carriage/Passenger Charter and all that civil stuff. There are guidelines on how long you can reasonably be expected to wait for a ticket both during rush hour, and outside of these times. Unfortunately, the queuing situation can't really form a defence, because the Byelaws are quite clear that if there WAS a place to buy your ticket, you MUST buy one. No mention of waiting time. The length of the queues can however form part or all of any mitigating circumstances you wish to use.

    Unfortunately though, proving what the queues were like wont be possible now as CCTV would most likely have long gone by now (usually kept for 30-days at stations before being wiped), and if, for the sake of argument the RPI's statement supplies statements from Ticket Office staff or indeed just states that there were say, 5 people in the queue at the time you state, this casts doubt on your mitigation straight away, as he's written it down and has notes, whereas you haven't and don't.

    You have been rather vague with your initial explanation of events, so I have cast assumptions in a lot of what I've put.

    To summerise, I doubt a case under 5(3)a of the Regulation of Railways Act would succeed, as from what you've said, the evidence isn't sufficient to prove intent to avoid payment. However, it's a different kettle of fish for a Byelaw, where all you need to have done is boarded without a ticket.

    Edit: Apologies, I miss-read. It wasn't a queue, it was an open ticket office with no staff member? If it was open, surely you could see him/her? Knock on the window etc? What about Ticket machines? If there's an office, surely there's machines too? Still not a defence alone I'm afraid...
  • Stigy
    Stigy Posts: 1,581
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    spacey2012 wrote: »
    Send them the £5.60 as soon as possible and make a note you regard the £100 as a unlawful penalty charge.
    It's not an unlawful penalty charge though....It's a court summons....
  • cookie365
    cookie365 Posts: 1,809 Forumite
    I'd also repeat my observation that Northern may well be able to present evidence from the ticket machine of tickets being sold in the minutes before the train departed.
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