Work capability assessment, I scored 0 points.

Iwanttobefree · 16 June 2017 at 1:23PM

Had a phone call today from them saying my ESA stops from now as I scored 0 points.

They asked if anything had changed, I went through the problems I'm having and they said they had that all written down.

To be honest, I didn't think I would score the needed 15 points after two replacement knees last year, but to score 0? Makes me wonder how others are scored.

I have arthritis in both my lower and upper back.

My lower back means I cant walk more than 50 - 100 yrds or stand for more than 3 to 5 mins without being in crippling pain.

My upper back causes me to have approx 2 - 3 days every week or two where I have severe neck pain/headache, the headache over the entire back of my head.

When I had my assessment I had a broken elbow due to one of my new knees giving way, as I explained on the phone this morning, my knee surgeon said that was impossible and it must be back related, trapping a nerve.

My knee replacements were done to elevate pain, not help fix mobility, I've had problems with them since I was 15. The surgeon said that I shouldn't expect to be able to do many things others do after knee replacements.

I cant bend them more than 90 degrees which makes kneeling/squatting out of the question.

I suffered from severe CFS/ME for many years and while thankfully that was cured after an operation (that I wanted them to do in the 90s but they refused saying budgets/age etc) a few years ago, but the one thing I haven't recovered from is short term memory problems. it was a lot worse when I had CFS, and it comes and goes at the moment, but when it happens, it's bad.

It's not the sort of thing that happens to us all as we get older, such as going upstairs and wondering what we came up there for, the example my wife always uses is I had to have a tablet at 7pm. I asked my wife if she could get it for me and she responded "you asked me 5 mins ago, and you've just taken it" and I have zero recollection of that happening.

That happens fairly regularly. I play an online game, it's become a standing joke that the group of people I play with have to explain something to me 3 days in a row as i cant remember what they said the previous day etc.

I suffer from severe nausea, have anti sickness tablets every single day and more often than not, they don't work, and when i feel really really sick, it's not very pleasant. Sitting in certain positions really aggravates this, such as sitting with my body twisted to the right (sitting in a chair, talking to someone sitting on my right)

I also suffer from migraines, get then few hrs at a time (used to get them for days at a time, but since on medication, a lot better)

With the pain in my back, and my knees (pain in my knees most noticeable lying on my side in bed), I'm constantly waking up every 1 - 2 hrs, hence constantly tired in the day.

Ever since I had CFS/ME I cant handle the slightest bit of stress. I used to work in a high stress job, but anything that causes me stress now, makes me come over really tired and exhausted.

And I score zero points with all that?

So, I've been getting the whopping benefit of £107 a week, and am on a DMP that we are struggling to pay, but managing.

And now after one phone call, that goes down to £73.10 meaning we are £156 worse off a month until I find a job.

So. all I have to do is find an employer that's happy to employ me, a 53 year old who due to severe health issues in the past, hasn't worked since 1999.

I cant stand for more than a couple of mins, I cant do any job requiring me to kneel, squat, climb stairs/ladders. Cant do anything where I'm lifting anything unless its from table height to table height.

That rules out cleaning jobs, takeaway jobs, 99.99% of shop work, warehouse jobs etc.

Often I will feel extremely sick and need a break, often I will have such a bad headache that I cant concentrate at all.

and I often wont remember what they tell me to do

This should be fun, along with my current complaint about one of my debts thats with the Ombudsman, this isn't going to add any more stress to me or my wife (who is working 6 days a week to keep us above disaster).

The joys of being ill.

Now I have an appointment with the job centre next week. This is going to be fun.

I've been looking every few days since my last knee replacement for any job I could do part time, so far in my area, I have seen zero

We currently are paying £186 a month to clear our debts on the DMP, not sure those 10 companies would be happy with that reducing to £30 until I manage to find some sort of job I can do.

Note, I am more than happy to work, I do look for jobs all the time, but due to my various problems, I am simply incapable of actually doing them

Muttleythefrog · 16 June 2017 at 2:02PM

Others will follow probably with advice. But you could look at challenging this decision. I presume they'll be sending their decision in letter format. I would try to acquire copies of the evidence used in your case... for example you say you had an assessment... I would have strongly advised requesting a copy the working day or two after it... so you were armed now... but essential you now get hold of a copy. It is likely the DWP decision mirrors this assessment report which could be badly flawed.

But you will be able to potentially ask for reconsideration and then appeal if that goes belly up... in the meantime you might be advised to claim JSA. My advice would be to look at the descriptors... the statements of disability for the various activities and figure out exactly what applies to you (or rather applied to you at time of completing your ESA50 form)... then you can determine if you should get awarded the main phase of ESA... look also at the support group descriptors to see if any of those should apply... if one was found to apply then you'd qualify for support group rather than the WRAG (where you need to score 15 points on the WRAG descriptors). It could be that you assess yourself as failing to qualify for either WRAG or support group... and if so then pursuing the claim may not make sense. You might need some support or advice from CAB or the like... but beware time.. you'll have a month from date of decision letter to get reconsideration request in. Consider evidence you may be able to supply or acquire. If your conditions change then there is also the possibility of new claim. But I think you need some tailored advice specific to your case.

spidermagicat · 16 June 2017 at 2:06PM

If your income has dropped adjust your DMP immediately to reflect that. Do not squeeze yourself beyond what you can. A DMP is meant to be able to adjust up AND down depending on circumstance.

~£150 less a month is a change in circumstance. It's not deliberate and is not in your control. So the DMP isn't likely to make a fuss about changing things temporarily.

In your position I would also appeal that decision. Last I saw over 60% of appeals were successful and it sounds like you would be one of those 60%+.

If you are successful you'd then receive the difference in benefit backdated. So you can tell the DMP that to appease them if they try to be tough on you. I doubt they'll find your case unique unfortunately.

Appeal, appeal, appeal.

There's more information here.

https://fullfact.org/health/appealing-fit-for-work-decision/

As well as here:

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/work-capability-assessment

(You're up to number 5)

IAmWales · 16 June 2017 at 2:15PM

To be honest, I didn't think I would score the needed 15 points after two replacement knees last year, but to score 0? Makes me wonder how others are scored.

Where do you feel you should score points?

TELLIT01 · 16 June 2017 at 3:02PM

I can't see what you would achieve by challenging the score if you don't think you would achieve 15 points anyway. You need to read through all the descriptors for achieving the WRAG and, if you then believe there is a chance you would qualify, request a Mandatory Reconsideration.
What you need to remember is that ESA is all about what you CAN do, not what you CAN'T.

Alice_Holt · 16 June 2017 at 3:33PM

Would you be able to self-propel a wheelchair for 200m; or would the back pain render the action of self-propelling difficult?
Could you sit at a work station for 60 mins (or a combination of sitting and standing); or would you need to move away to ease the pain?

Regulation 29 may apply due to physical problems, the headaches, and poor memory / concentration posing a risk in the workplace. See - http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/making-exception

On what grounds were you receiving ESA before this reassessment?

I would suggest:
1) getting help from your local CAB / advice agency,
2) asking your GP if he would support an appeal (possibly on the basis that a return to work would pose a significant risk to your health).
3) if you think the decision wrong then submit a mandatory reconsideration request when you get the decision notice - https://www.leicester.gov.uk/media/178163/mandatory-reconsideration-request.pdf

Useful resources:
https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/employment-and-support-allowance/start-the-esa-test
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/challenging-an-esa-decision/
http://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal (useful guide to the appeal process - the ESA appeal process is virtually the same as PIP)

Iwanttobefree · 16 June 2017 at 6:21PM

My situation is as follows, apologies for the length.

Was happily working in the mid 90s, senior systems analyst/computer operations manager for an oil exploration company, earning what would be deemed a good salary by most today.

But I lived in Guildford and most went on Mortgage.

I kept becoming very very tired, kept going to GP and was told "it's a virus".

I was diagnosed with a hiatus hernia a few years earlier and this cause me constant problems with acid reflux.

As I was so tired, I became argumentative/snappy at work and would often loose control (not physically), and I went from never having days off sick, to hardly a week going by without me taking one, and eventually I ended up writing my centre managers USA boss a letter telling him what I thought of my centre manager, hence had to resign.

I took a few months break as I was so tired, but bills mounted so I had to get another job.

Meanwhile I was under the hospital about my hernia. They gave me a device to wear for 24 hrs, said I had bad reflux, but at my age and with tight budgets, they wont operate, its cheaper to control with medication. I said I wish they would operate, they said no.

I got another job looking after a well known clothing companies head office computer, but I was physically and mentally exhausted the whole time. In my first year there, I had 37 days off sick.

One day I was so tired, so stressed out, i simply resigned.

Saw many different doctors, all said "you have another virus..."

Over the years I have had about 15 operations on my knees, had problems since I was 15, was told by a specialist that they are really knackered and I will need artificial knees at some point but at that age, they would last me less than 5 years.

I wasn't getting any better, we took the decision to sell our house in Guildford and move to Great Yarmouth as we could get a much cheaper house.

There the GP sent me to hospital for tests about my tiredness and they diagnosed me with ME/CFS. I told them that to be honest, I think that's an excuse, as I can find 1000s of illnesses with my symptoms as a side effect, and I felt they simply lumped anyone they couldn't diagnose, with that label (I know 3 others with ME/CFS, all 3 have completely different symptoms to me and each other).

And I became worse and worse. Ended up, I would wake up, face all puffed up, walk down stairs, collapse on the armchair and my wife would wake ,e up when she got in from work. I often went wees/months without leaving the house. There was probably about 3 weeks in a year where I felt ok.

I was so inactive, so drained, so achy all over, that while my knees did give way and hurt, it wasn't something I really paid much attention to. This went on for years, my fitness for work assessment (or whatever it was called then) signed me off for 5 years, about 2 years after the 5 years was up, I had to go for another one. They signed me off for a year. That was about 3 - 4 years ago.

My short term memory was so bad when I had it that my wife banned me from answering the phone as I could never remember who I had spoken too.

And my hernia got worse, I was waking up unable to breath in the middle of the night, having about an hour long choking fit due to acid reflux, then i would loose my voice for a few hrs etc.

My GP said the hernia had been diagnosed, no point spending his budget on it.

Eventually we got a new GP managing the practice, and he agreed with me it should be looked at again.

I had a camera down te throat initially, then referred to another hospital where they had me lying on a bed swallowing a marshmallow and a camera watching it go down. Then I had to wear a computer for 24 hrs, and they said if i scored over something like 18, I would benefit from an operation.

I scored 64.

I was referred to a specialist surgeon and he was fuming that they didn't operate all those years ago.

I finally had the op, called a Nissen Fundiplication where they turn my diaphragm into a one way valve. I can no longer vomit, drink any fizzy drinks, and certain foods get stuck when I eat them, chicken and bread being the two biggest.

As soon as I woke up I felt different, all my CFS/ME gone. I felt on top of the world.

When I recovered, I went back to the hospital, about my ME/CFS, they said that sort of thing often happens, and to give it 6 months to a year to build my body strength back up and I should be fine to go back to work.

I felt great. Yes I felt very sick all the time, but I wasn't tired. I could go put, take dogs for a walk. I would soon be able to get some sort of job.

My memory is a LOT better, but sometimes my mind just goes completely blank and I cant remember what was just said (again not talking about like we all do as we get older)

But my knees after years of being inactive, they just went to pot. giving way, unable to put weight on them, swelling up to the size of footballs.

My GP referred me to a specialist, and when he saw me (I was 49-50 at the time) he said "oh they did have your date of birth right when I saw your xray, I thought you must be in your 80s".

And to cut an even longer post down, I had to have two total knee replacements, but he warned me that due to the state of them and the surrounding muscles, and my history, he's doing it more for pain relief than anything else, and anything else is a bonus.

Over the past few years I started to get pain/headaches in the back of my head/neck. I saw a physio, they gave me some exercises. It didn't help, my GP got it x-rayed and said its got arthritis in it, thats whats causing it.

Occasionally I started getting back ache, I first noticed it before my knees were replaced, when I first recovered from CFS/ME, after I walked about 1/2 mile, or when I did the washing up, standing at the sink.

I didn't really think anything of it. But it got steadily worse. After my first knee was replaced last year, I found that I had to sit down after walking about 50 - 100 yards, just for a couple of mins then it would be fine again.

Then I had my other knee done last November.

i recovered from this knee much better as the other one was the worst before the op. But my back started to get worse. My knee physio referred me to one specialising in backs.

She said I was bending from 3 vertebra up from where I should be. She said it was most likely caused by me being so inactive when I had CFS/ME. She manipulated my back and gave me exercises, She increased my movement but not the pain and after a few weeks, said there was nothing more she can do and to go to my GP.

My GP had it x-rayed, and low and behold, I have arthritis in my lower back too. It started to cause me real problems, and she put me on strong painkillers. While these helped a little, I was out of my face or asleep on them.

January this year I got the letter asking me to feel in the capability for work form, and I put all the above on it (included a letter), I said that providing there's no huge problem with my back, I fully expect to be able to get some sort of part time job around April/May (I stressed I was still under the GP with it).

Then a couple of months ago, I decided to try and walk to the bank with my son for some exercise, got half way there, leg gave way, I fell flat on the ground and broke my elbow.

Then I got a request to go in for a face to face assessment. She was very polite, but I could tell by the way she was speaking and the way she was trying to put words into m,y mouth that as far as she was concerned, I was fit for work. Even my broken arm, she said "you don't need it in the sling all the time though do you"

She asked me almost the exact questions that are on the form, and I gave her the same answers. I pointed out a few other things like when I hold a pen or screwdriver for more than a few mins, my fingers lock, and I get problems with my toes clicking over one another in a really painful cramp way etc.

A few days later I had a follow up appointment for my broken arm, I happened to see the same surgeon who did my knees, and he said it was impossible for my knee to give way as I described. He then asked me if I ever suffer from back problems, I explained them to him and said the GP had said there's little they can do except pain killers.

He said thats not good enough as thats whats causing my knees to give way, probably trapping a nerve, and I need it investigated further else I'm going to either break more bones or damage the knees.

So I went back to my GP, told her I didn't like the tablets as I felt like a zombie, she said to stop taking them then. I told her what the surgeon said and I also pointed out that often I wake up and my hand is completely numb, and it isn't the hand I'm laying on. She said that was due to my upper neck, and as I've had problems with both, she would book me in for a mri of my entire spine.

Which I had a couple of Sundays ago.

Today I received the phone call from works and pensions, I explained all this to her, said I was seeing my GP Monday week about it.

She then said that the assessment is not a medical, and I have to score over 15 points, I scored 0, would I like to appeal.

At that point I simply thought if I score 0 with all that, whats the point.

I thought I probably wouldn't get the 15 points as I no longer had CFS/ME and after reading about other peoples experiences.

To be perfectly honest, find me a part time job working about 16 hrs a week, where I'm sitting down, I could probably do it fine.

But the limitation s of what I can do, it just boggles the mind that I scored 0.

Even something relatively simple (no offence meant to those hardworking people that do this) such as working on a checkout. Due to my hernia/op/feeling sick, reaching for the goods etc would cause me both pain and to want to vomit (which I cant physically do)

And in the past 3 weeks, I've started to get the back pain while seated, and getting up (the initial push) is very hard.

But I might as well sit somewhere and work than sit here and type etc.

My real concern is the job centre and my efforts for looking for work. I have looked every week and for 5 hours today. Living in Great Yarmouth there's not a lot of work around.

I couldn't see one advertised job that I could do without being in severe pain. Most of the jobs around here are care home, shop work, warehouse work etc.

And being out of the computer game for 18 years, and not being able to take stress any more, going back into that career is really a no go.

I can just see the job centre person not understanding my limitations as to look at I look reasonably OK.

I will offer my 10 creditors £30 between them instead of the £186 I was paying, but everything (apart from Creation Finance) was going smoothly, debts had gone from 32K to 27K.

Sorry for my rant, feeling a little down.

GotToChange · 16 June 2017 at 8:08PM

I just wanted to post quickly and say that I am so sorry. Sending a Hug your way.

I am sure you will be advised to appeal - and of course to get a copy of the Assessment that they completed. (There may also have been a form sent to your GP Practice, which they should return; if so, a copy of that will be useful.)
Have you thought of doing some kind of self-employment in the IT field....?
Again, best wishes - you have a lot on your plate

/

Muttleythefrog · 17 June 2017 at 11:41AM

Yes you've received some good advice.... I've read your story... it is fairly complex for an outsider...and you obviously have my sympathies... but the sands have been shifting in terms of your illnesses/disablements which makes it harder to definitively advise. If your circumstances change then obviously you have a duty to inform them... but regarding assessing entitlement they should be looking at around the time of your form completion. I do think, as above, you need to take a step back.. look at all the Work Capability Assessment descriptors (including support group and special circumstances) and figure out if you feel you should qualify for ESA. You may well be best placed to determine the truth of this... and as a result determine the 'validity' of challenging the decision. As others have said... you don't really risk anything by pursuing this matter... to reconsideration and later appeal if necessary... but then with changing conditions and disablements you may also find a new claim in future of relevance otherwise.

The assessments themselves are notorious for error and flaw.. and what you describe is a common experience of them trying to control the content of the assessment for their own efficiencies. When you have a copy in hand (plus as advised you should also ask for any other evidence they acquired such as a report from your GP) you'll know more... but scoring zero points as such is far from uncommon.. and far from uncommon for people who go on to successfully challenge the decision (especially in appeal tribunal). But you must focus on the descriptors... which ones do you feel apply to you. Reading between lines here you may need to control your focus in relation to describing your relevant difficulties for them... I cannot do x... I can't do it because of y... when I try to do x then z is what happens... my supporting evidence a and b describe my difficulties and offer diagnosis in this regard... more that kind of thinking if you need direction... and you may not.

"January this year I got the letter asking me to feel in the capability for work form, and I put all the above on it (included a letter), I said that providing there's no huge problem with my back, I fully expect to be able to get some sort of part time job around April/May (I stressed I was still under the GP with it)." - I do not think that was a wise concession as it implies you feel there is minimal disability preventing you working and you expect it to soon be resolved.

Alice_Holt · 17 June 2017 at 12:37PM

OP - please carefully read Muttley's post.

To reinforce the important point:
You need to carefully go through the ESA descriptors - Can you do the activities reliably, repeatedly, and in a reasonable time scale on the majority of days?
If you don't understand the descriptors - read through the links I supplied in post 6.

Go back to the questions I put to you in post 6 re mobilising, and sitting and standing, and regulation 29.
Did these apply at the date of the DWP decision to end your ESA claim?

teddysmum · 17 June 2017 at 4:15PM

Can you not find IT work to do from home, as that would not mean relying on local availability ?

I have similar back problems (knees and toes just the usual twinges of old age),as a large number of my discs (neck downwards ) are producing a number of symptoms, which do vary. However,as we've discussed before, unless you have a really bad day , distraction does help (I often fell quite good, when with grandchildren).

Have you asked for a different painkiller ? I have tried several,some multipurpose and the current one ,Tramadol, doesn't make me sleepy, but does, combined with another drug, help with night time sleep.

Work capability assessment, I scored 0 points.

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