Energy Saving Trust Q&A Centre

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative · 24 June 2011 at 2:33PM

Green_Jim wrote: »

I'm reading a lot about the advantages of smart meters at present, but they only ever seem to be for electrics. Can you get smart meters for gas supply, preferably non-intrusive ones that can be installed without recourse to a gas-safe plumber.

Very interested to know

thanks

I won't waste any more time trying to justify our recent poor service. I'll just get on with answering some questions....

When full smart meters come in they will monitor the gas supply as well as the electricity supply, but these will have to be professionally installed by the energy supply companies. There is a wide range of electricity monitors available that can be DIY fitted, sometimes known as clip-on monitors or real time displays, but these are not true smart meters. There are no DIY gas monitors available that we are aware of.

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative · 24 June 2011 at 2:48PM

sonnet wrote: »

Do you know of any solar installers that are offering to fit solar panels for free as long as you forfeit the profit from the surplus energy going back to the grid, you gain by getting free electric that the panel produces.
I have heard rumors of solar companies running such a venture but have yet to find one that delivers.
Can you help.

There are a number of companies offering "free PV" or "rent a roof" schemes. You sign a contract with them, they insall photovoltaic panels on your roof, they receive all the Feed-inTariff money for electricity generated and electricity exported, and you benefit from reduced electricity bills when you use the electricity generated directly in your own home.

This can be a relatively easy way to get a microgeneration system installed without having to invest or borrow any money. However, you should be aware that the amount of money you save from using the electricity generated will be small. The vast majority of the money earnt will go to the installer company to pay off their costs and give them a profit.

As with all such business opportunities, some companies are more open and reliable than others. You should read our consumer guidance on this topic before considering signing any contract:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Solar-electricity/Consumer-guidance-on-free-solar-PV-offers

And remember, if you can afford to install your own system then you will be better off doing it that way. If private companies can make money out of this then so can you.

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative · 24 June 2011 at 3:08PM

i_h_kerr wrote: »

Where can I get information on the suitability of an SPV system for a block of flats in London? Would want to take advantage of the feed-in-tariff scheme.

There are a number of ways that a solar PV system could be set up on a block of flats.

Firstly, the landlord or freeholder could install them and connect them to the electricity supply for the communal parts of the building. The landlord would pay the full costs and receive all the income. The residents would only benefit if the landlord passed on any savings through reduced maintenance charges etc. The landlord would be taxed on income from the panels.

Secondly, individual tenants or leasholders could install individual systems on the roof (with the agreement of the landlord/freeholder/other leaseholders) and connect them to their own electricity systems. They would pay the full cost and receive all the benefits, tax free. The landlord/freeholder would not receive any benefit unless they charged additional rent for the roof space.

Thirdly, the landlord could install individual systems and connect them through individual electricity systems in each flat. Each tenant would sign an agreement with the landlord to assign the Feed-in Tariff benefits to the landlord, so that he/she can recover the costs of installation. The tenants would benefit from having reduced electricity bills whenever they used the solar electricity directly in their own homes. The landlord would be taxed on their income, but would receive the higher tariffs for domestic scale installations, rather than a lower tarrif that would apply if all the installations were classed as one big one.

Fourthly, a separate private company could install, own and earn income from a system, allowing the residents and/or building owner to benefit fromr educed electricity bills.

There are other variations depending on the ownership and management of the building, and the level of co-operation between residents. But in most instances, if the roof is appropriate then there should be a means to get something installed that benefits everyone in some way.

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative · 24 June 2011 at 3:24PM

redfred1 wrote: »

I have recently started to use 3Watt LED down-lighters in my home. I used to have 10X50Watt Halogen bulbs. This means instead of burning 50watts I only use 3Watts per bulb. This means that every 2 hours instead of using 1KWh I only use 30watts per hour. In winter time the kitchen lights are on for 6 hours a day, so this is 3KWhs a day, X 7 days a week, X 26 weeks a year= 546KWh’s@15p perKWh= £81 for 6 months use. With LED bulbs I now spend only £16, a saving of £64 per 6 months. The GU10LED bulbs cost me £3.50each or £35. 12volt MR16 LED Bulbs are also available.

Can you consider investigating more thoroughly the advantages of using LED lights, and include any finding and recommendations on you WEB page advice section.
Thanks Red Fred

Thanks very much for the well researched prompt, and apologies for the delay in replying. You are quite right to point out that LEDs have now reached the point where they can be used as direct replacements for halogen downlighters. We have made some interim amendments to our lighting web text (probably after you posted your message), but I am now in the process of re-writing the lighting section from scratch to make sure our message is accurate and up to date.

One word of warning though - there are still many sub-standard LEDs on the market, many of them claiming to be "equivalent to a 50W" when they are not. We would advise everyone to look for the light output, which should be stated in Lumens. It will need to be over 300 Lumens to truly replace a 50W halogen, though many people may be happy with 200 Lumens or so. If the bulb doesn't say how many Lumens it gives out, then don't buy it. All new bulbs now have to state the output in Lumens by law, but shops are allowed to get rid of their existing stock first, so there are plenty out there that don't say.

Also, if it only uses one watt, then it isn't going to be very bright. Most true 50W replacements are 5 to 6 watts, though many people will, like you, be happy with something a little less bright. Nobody really needs 500W of halgoen bulbs in their kitchen - if they replace them with 10 x 3W LEDs they will probably be happy, but if they buy 10 x 1W LEDs they will end up disappointed.

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative · 24 June 2011 at 3:33PM

Cardew wrote: »

Are you sure these are 'storage' heaters?

There are gel filled radiators on the market that run on normal 24/7 electricity and state the gel endows them with wonderful properties, and if these are the ones you mean, they aren't storage heaters.

They are just a variation on the standard oil filled radiator you can buy for £30 or so.

You should be aware that all electrical heating is 100% efficient and give out exactly the same amount of heat for the same running cost.

That includes these vastly overpriced radiators costing many £hundreds each with advertising that implies they give out more heat because they are filled with a magic ingredient - gel, clay etc.

If a radiator retains heat longer, then it will take longer to produce heat. It is simple physics.

I suspect the EST can't say they are a scam for legal reasons - but they are!!!!!

Thanks Cardew, your answer is pretty well spot on. The only thing I would add is that, although all electric heaters are technically 100% efficient, storage heaters inevitably give off heat when it is not required. this means the the amount of useful heat they give out is less than the energy consumed so, by that reckoning, they are less than 100% efficient.

Gel filled electric heaters are uncontrolled storage heaters, which means the amount of heat given off at the wrong time is greater, which makes them the least efficent electric heating system on offer.

Cardew · 24 June 2011 at 4:26PM

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative wrote: »

Thanks Cardew, your answer is pretty well spot on. The only thing I would add is that, although all electric heaters are technically 100% efficient, storage heaters inevitably give off heat when it is not required. this means the the amount of useful heat they give out is less than the energy consumed so, by that reckoning, they are less than 100% efficient.

Gel filled electric heaters are uncontrolled storage heaters, which means the amount of heat given off at the wrong time is greater, which makes them the least efficent electric heating system on offer.

Chest puffed out with pride;)

As you say, the major criticism of storage heaters is that they leak heat during the day - when it is often not required - and can run out of heat in the evening.

However that wasted heat brings me nicely to a subject I have raised many times on this forum, and as far as I am aware is not covered by the EST. Namely a major limitation of heat pumps.

We are all aware that for heat pumps to work efficiently the water in radiators or Under Floor Heating(UFH) has to be much lower than conventional CH. 35C to 45C is a typical temperature and as the water temperature increases the COP falls.

With my gas CH, with water temperature at up to 82C, I can set the heating to come on 20 minutes before I get up, or come home from work and return to a warm house.

Not so with Heat pumps, with the low water temperature it is necessary to run the system for much longer – even continuously – to ensure a warm house.
So if we consider a system with a COP of, say, 2.5, a 40kWh input will produce 100kWh. However exactly in line with your caveat on Storage Heater efficiency, a good proportion of the 100kWh can be ‘wasted’ when the house is unoccupied or occupants in bed.

This lowers the overall efficiency considerably when comparing to other heating systems.

Given the very disappointing results – particularly for ASHPs – on the heat pump trial you conducted, if the above is taken into account, it makes them an even less viable heating system – until they get matters sorted.

P.S. Do you know when the results of the extended trial are to be published?

zeupater · 24 June 2011 at 5:55PM

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative wrote: »

I won't waste any more time trying to justify our recent poor service. I'll just get on with answering some questions....

Hi

Thanks for raising the service level so quickly .... almost without prompting at that

, so I'll put the sharp stick away for a while as it doesn't seem to be needed any more .... (hopefully

)

Z

smartsaver2011 · 25 June 2011 at 1:59PM

Hello,

I contacted the energy saving trust over several mths ago to find out what we are entitled too. Myself and my OH own a semi detached house 1950's, 3 bed, 3 electric heaters and 1 open fire only, No gas supply we rely on wood fire and the pathetic electric heater and good old blanket! They advised we were eligable for cavity wall as we probably have none however when they said they would pass our details on...Nothing...called again...nothing...and etc. Since I have just found this thread perhaps someone could reply and tell me if anyone could look at? Thanks xx

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative · 27 June 2011 at 12:24PM

Cardew wrote: »

Chest puffed out with pride;)

....with Heat pumps, with the low water temperature it is necessary to run the system for much longer – even continuously – to ensure a warm house.
So if we consider a system with a COP of, say, 2.5, a 40kWh input will produce 100kWh. However exactly in line with your caveat on Storage Heater efficiency, a good proportion of the 100kWh can be ‘wasted’ when the house is unoccupied or occupants in bed.

This lowers the overall efficiency considerably when comparing to other heating systems.

Given the very disappointing results – particularly for ASHPs – on the heat pump trial you conducted, if the above is taken into account, it makes them an even less viable heating system – until they get matters sorted.

It is true that heat pumps will take longer to heat a house up than a gas boiler system. They also operate more efficiently when running for extended periods at a steady output, rather than switching on and off like a boiler. This does mean that, in order to achieve a high COP, the heating programmer has to be set to longer hours than an equivalent boiler system would require. In turn, this means that the house will lose more heat and the total heat required from the heat pump will be greater than the total heat required from a boiler.

This is one reason why we recommend that heat pumps are only installed in well insulated houses. If the house is well insulated then the additional heat loss from heating the house for longer will not be too great, and the increased efficiency from a well designed heat pump will easily more than compensate for this.

We would still be cautious of recommending heat pump installations in an old house with gas heating, even if it had basic insulation and draught proofing measures installed, as it is not clear there would be financial or CO2 savings. However, in a new build property we would expect the thermal performance of the building to be good enough to enable good heat pump systems to deliver net savings. And any house without a gas supply could potentially benefit from a heat pump along with standard insulation and draught proofing measures.

I will try and find a likely date for the second stage field trial publication, and post a separate answer.

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative · 27 June 2011 at 12:45PM

smartsaver2011 wrote: »

Hello,

I contacted the energy saving trust over several mths ago to find out what we are entitled too. Myself and my OH own a semi detached house 1950's, 3 bed, 3 electric heaters and 1 open fire only, No gas supply we rely on wood fire and the pathetic electric heater and good old blanket! They advised we were eligable for cavity wall as we probably have none however when they said they would pass our details on...Nothing...called again...nothing...and etc. Since I have just found this thread perhaps someone could reply and tell me if anyone could look at? Thanks xx

Hello Smartsaver2011,

I'm sorry you haven't received a referral or response, and I will chase this up for you. However, we will need to know your details to follow it up, and I appreciate you may not want to post these on an open forum.

So, if you could please re-submit your request here:
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Help-support/Contact-us
I will personnally chase your request and make sure it gets a sensible and timely response.

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