Say No to 0870!
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So, Loopy it is ok for companies to publish the 0870 number with no notification of costs, provide no alternative.
Post is ALWAYS an alternative.
Fax and emails usually are.
I challenge you to show me a comapny that does not provide ANY alternative.0 -
I agree with Sammy and Sarahsaver, except that as I have previously emphasised the main problem is queuing with the artificial protraction tricks. The whole approach of this scam is really a confidence trick to prevent the consumer from being able to accurately compare the total cost of buying from a company using this scam profile with an honest company that shows its transparent pricing. It is just another form of the increasing Confusion Marketing techniques being used today. The modern breed of amateur managements seem to go for this type of con rather than running an enterprise more efficiently and professionally to compete on a level playing field, mainly because they do not have the competence to run their companies in an efficient way. Confusion marketing has this purpose of clouding the true position, so as to make it extremely difficult or impossible for the consumer to compare like with like so as to find the lowest cost or best value.
The truth is that probably not so many consumers would be incensed about this scam if it were not for these queuing tricks. If you rang a company on a 0870 number and someone immediately answered and efficiently dealt with the problem or enquiry the call would not take very long and would not cost very much. It is principally because these companies deliberately use queuing in this scam way and subsequently put you on hold at every possible moment for every possible excuse that we get so annoyed. Most of the cost of these calls for consumers is incurred while queuing - for nothing! These companies have a vested interest in making your call last as long as possible while the revenue is being generated.
I too believed that this site was supposed to be for consumers, and representing their side of the scales. Martin's whole philosophy as originally stated is that we should drive all companies trying to make easy money out of us into the ground! This scam is the worst example of all of companies trying to make easy money out of us.
We understand that Loopytush has a problem in this respect. As someone involved in the sale of these revenue-generating NGNs if these scams were ended he would lose a lot of income. On the other hand he too is a consumer and he therefore also is hit to some extent by the use of these scams by companies. His is an unenviable position to be in. He is betwixt the Devil and the deep blue sea, so to speak!
I think there is one problem with Lisyloo's position though, and that is that an increasing number of companies with this scam operating profile completely disregard letters and e-mails and do not reply to them at all. I have found that more and more companies, unless there is some legal significance in the content of a letter or e-mail which makes them realise that they must respond, or face some legal implication or result, just do not bother to reply. Some companies now state that they will not respond to e-mails at all. This is all deliberately done to enforce the scam operating profile, and to extract the Premiums under a type of duress, for that is what it in reality is.0 -
sammy:
Fisrt off how can i be looking one sided I have through out this thread supported the need for change. My points to you are mainly to show that there are 2 sides to the situation. And in return to your points again
1) As stated by another member I think you will be hard pressed to find any company that will only deal with you over 0870 numbers. And even if they did then why are buying from them. You do have the choice.
2) I think that you will find that the sale of goods act will does not always warrant you as you think. Using my example you would not have the right to return the phone after lets say 8 months if there is a fault. If this was the case then there would be no need for warranties. The 21 day rule I mentioned is part of all mobile phone rulings: 14 days you can return for any reason and cancel, 21 days you can return and cancel if your handset is faulty. Apart from that you are only covered by the warranty.
3) Who said anything about being clear. I just said that the costs are not hidden.
Lisyloo
Thanks for your input.
sarahsaver
Quite frankly I must say yes companies do have the right to publish these numbers without notification of the call charges. The law states so. Also a company cannot publish the precise call charges as it ALWAYS depends on the callers telco, hence I have stated that the numbers should possibly carry a warniing to the caller to check the call prices.
Regardless if a person has the confidence to query these things they can pick up the phone (write, fax, email) there telco provider and ask them what the call charges are for 0870. If they are not confident enough to this or have the expense to do this then maybe they should not have the luxury of a phone?
Ok so I was being open on the earning a living thing but I would pretty much guess that some where in your job an 0870 is used. And even if there is the slightest remote chance it is not then hey thats fine forget what I said because it does not cover you, just the couple of million people that do work in telco.
Yes I work in telco and my interest, well I have stated this before but if you want a real look into it then sure here goes, but this does not change my views and my supporting the campaign with martin:
1) 8 years of working in call centres including: Martin Dawes, Breathe Internet, Telewest, Telinco, World Online, Tiscali, o2, Vodafone.
2) Yes I have a further interest in 0870 and like wise as I use them to benefit myself for a second income. As stated never hidden this.
Erm, I know what the site is about but what you are failing to see is that this campaign (again which I support) effects both business and consumer.
As far as your "open a restraunt" how can you compare that to the 0870. The company CANNOT advise of charges as they do not know what the caller is paying to call them on this number.0 -
Loopylush,
The Sale of Goods Act stipulates that 'goods must be of a merchantable quality and fit for the purpose sold'.
And it is about degrees, for example if a car costing £20k was faulty the Act would allow you to have it put right even as long as six years, if it was shown to be a manufacturing fault. For items less costly then shorter periods would be decided by the court, obviously a toy water pistol bought from a market stall will not be expected to have such lengthy protection!
BUT it was the principle I was referring to - the SUPPLIER is held responsible NOT the manufacturer, so it is to them you go with the problem. That is the law.0 -
I think there is one problem with Lisyloo's position though, and that is that an increasing number of companies with this scam operating profile completely disregard letters and e-mails and do not reply to them at all.
Do you have to deal with these companies?
Personally I would choose not to.
I am currently closing 2 mail order catalogue accounts and my husband is closing another - partly for this reason.
For me these hidden costs just do not make it worthwhile. I would rather go to the shops in my lunch hour and not have these hidden costs.
Surely if more people refused to do business with these companies (where possible) then it would cause them a problem.
In each of the 3 cases above we WILL be letting them know that this is a reason for closure.
Perhaps if you are disabled and can't get to the shops then you are more reliant on your phone, but most of us have choices about where we shop.
Why don't we all jsut use those choices.0 -
That is correct as to the sale of goods act. However in the example that I gave (mobile phone) there are a couple of points that change the situation:
1) As the goods must be in a fit state when the purchase is made it is up to the retailer to ensure this. Hence mobile shops (not little ones but network direct etc) give you 21 days to discover any such faults. After this they will accept the goods in for repair.
2) You could NOT demand a replacement after 21 days as the warranty states that the phone has be sent for repair, this is for the purpose of investigating whether the fault was with the goods or user damage.
3) The big clause is assuch: If you go into to a vodafone shop are you buying the phone? The answer is no you are buying the vodafone service i.e. the network. I think you will find somewhere in the contract that vodafone are not supplying the phone and this is of the manufacturer's doing.
Any way we can haggle about this all day. The bottom line is that:
a) The numbers need to carry a warning (as the french do).
b) Everyone has the choice not to call these numbers.
c) If ANY member of the public does not know the calling charges for these numbers. That is due to there own inabilty to check these with the telephone company they are with. COMPANIES using the 0870 CANNOT advertise the calling cost, end of.0 -
I would add to the bottom line:
d) It should be mandatory for queueing systems to announce the number of calls in the queue, (I know some do).
My own bottom line would simply be get rid of these numbers and let prices of goods/services go up if necessary. At least it's all transparent then.0 -
Loopytush,
Manufacturers warranties can only ENHANCE your consumer rights under Sale of Goods Act, NEVER override them!!
End of , as you would say.0 -
1) Why should this company not earn towards paying for the call they answer. I mean 1 hour call to 0870 earns them approx an max of £3.
This argument has been often made by loopytush, but he is careful to omit that they can decide NOT to answer for the whole hour - and the consumer STILL pays!!
At least if the 0870 were 'Premium' they cannot put you in a queue.0 -
1) As the goods must be in a fit state when the purchase is made it is up to the retailer to ensure this. Hence mobile shops (not little ones but network direct etc) give you 21 days to discover any such faults. After this they will accept the goods in for repair.
2) You could NOT demand a replacement after 21 days as the warranty states that the phone has be sent for repair, this is for the purpose of investigating whether the fault was with the goods or user damage.
3) The big clause is assuch: If you go into to a vodafone shop are you buying the phone? The answer is no you are buying the vodafone service i.e. the network. I think you will find somewhere in the contract that vodafone are not supplying the phone and this is of the manufacturer's doing.
This is off topic now.. but you are wrong.
Points 1 and 2 - the law now states that the seller has to prove that the goods were not faulty, if something goes wrong within the first 6 months, the consumer can ask for a refund or a new replacement during this period - they don't have to accept a repair.
If a shop is quoting 21 days (or similar) they are betting that you don't know your statuorary rights..
As for point 3..
If you go to a vodafone shop, you are actually buying 2 things
a) a phone from the vodafone shop - nothing at all to do with the manufacturer. The shop is legally responsible for anything going wrong with the handset.
b) A contract for the airtime/service with Vodafone "the network" - who are responsible for coverage/customer service/billing etc.. and they are the people you would chase if you have a problem with the service (rather than the hardware which is due to the shop)
It doesn't matter if you are buying your phone from a small independant or a "network branded" shop (i,e, a Vodafone shop) - the law is the same
I think you need to brushup on your consumer law a bit
Regards
Sunil0
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