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    • the_midnight_Wolfboy
    • By the_midnight_Wolfboy 14th Sep 17, 1:27 PM
    • 14Posts
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    the_midnight_Wolfboy
    Recently moved into house, dropped kerb application refused. What can I do?
    • #1
    • 14th Sep 17, 1:27 PM
    Recently moved into house, dropped kerb application refused. What can I do? 14th Sep 17 at 1:27 PM
    Hi all,

    Sorry I wasn't sure if this topic should go in here or in motoring

    I recently bought a house in Southall, needs quite a lot of work (as most houses do here), and I thought getting a dropped kerb in front of my house would be a "quick win"

    My application was refused and has today been denied on appeal by Ealing council because my driveway depth is 4.11m, which falls below the 4.20m requirement.

    What frustrates me is identical houses with identical driveways either side of my house have dropped kerbs, in fact the majority of the houses on the street have dropped kerbs with the same driveways.

    They say that there was a recent policy change so the other houses don't set precedent - but surely this defeats the purpose of setting precedent in the first place?

    They cite the reason as a safety concern because of potential protruding vehicles, I can understand their opinion but I do feel that the decision is slightly unfair? Or am I being unrealistic here?
Page 4
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 25th Nov 17, 9:30 AM
    • 352 Posts
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    HampshireH
    The OP doesn't say that he was told he could do it by the vendor. Why are they responsible or am I completely missing the sarcasm (quite possible)
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 25th Nov 17, 9:58 AM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    The OP wasnt told they couldnt do it by the vendor - though vendor either knew or should have known about this Council regulation and could easily have got a rule out and measured the length of their drive to see if their house would be caught out by the Council regulation.

    If one sees a drive - then one assumes it can be used as a drive - but we've been told local Council regulations forbid access to drives less than a certain length and we've also been told local Council regulations forbid driving across the pavement to get to a drive there if there's no dropped kerb.
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 25-11-2017 at 10:00 AM.
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 25th Nov 17, 10:01 AM
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    AdrianC
    Or - going right back to the basic message - the vendor has "done one" on OP. They probably knew/should have known about the Council enforcing regulations to stop (part) pavement parking and their drive didnt qualify. Followed by they deliberately didn't let on....
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    I wonder what else the vendor didn't tell the OP.

    Perhaps they forgot to mention there was no river-front mooring rights? Unlikely to get planning permission for a new airport, since the runway's a bit short? No substantial deposits of gold?
    • Margot123
    • By Margot123 25th Nov 17, 10:03 AM
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    Margot123
    Do you have a disability, or have a frequent visitor that has a disability?

    You may be able to appeal on the grounds of restricted access for disabled persons. Perhaps that person would be liable to injury if they were to trip on the kerb getting out of the car. Councils have to make reasonable adjustments in such cases.
    Take photos of said person struggling to get out of the car, negotiate the kerb and pathway, and anything else on council property.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 25th Nov 17, 10:03 AM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    The phrase "reasonable expectations" comes to mind. One would have a "reasonable expectation" of being able to use a drive as a drive. Even as a non car-owner, then my "reasonable expectation" would be that those of my visitors with a vehicle would be able to drive up into my drive. It looked like a drive - so I'd expect it to be a drive.
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 25th Nov 17, 10:09 AM
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    AdrianC
    The phrase "reasonable expectations" comes to mind. One would have a "reasonable expectation" of being able to use a drive as a drive. Even as a non car-owner, then my "reasonable expectation" would be that those of my visitors with a vehicle would be able to drive up into my drive. It looked like a drive - so I'd expect it to be a drive.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    Except for the minor detail that, no matter how much you wish it was, it simply isn't a driveway for a motor vehicle - a quick glance at the lack of dropped kerb tells you that.

    You can call it what you like - a patio, a runway, a drive, a helipad - but it's a tarmacced bit of front garden. No more, no less. You can put your wheelybins there, your bicycle, whatever you like - but you definitely cannot put a motor vehicle there. Not legally.
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 25th Nov 17, 10:19 AM
    • 6,508 Posts
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    davidmcn
    The phrase "reasonable expectations" comes to mind. One would have a "reasonable expectation" of being able to use a drive as a drive. Even as a non car-owner, then my "reasonable expectation" would be that those of my visitors with a vehicle would be able to drive up into my drive. It looked like a drive - so I'd expect it to be a drive.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    I'm not sure which "OP" you're talking about (the original thread starter or the one who resurrected it), but neither said that there was an existing drive when they bought their properties.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 25th Nov 17, 10:20 AM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    Do you have a disability, or have a frequent visitor that has a disability?

    You may be able to appeal on the grounds of restricted access for disabled persons. Perhaps that person would be liable to injury if they were to trip on the kerb getting out of the car. Councils have to make reasonable adjustments in such cases.
    Take photos of said person struggling to get out of the car, negotiate the kerb and pathway, and anything else on council property.
    Originally posted by Margot123
    I would doubt that idea is a runner personally.

    The Council could turn round and expect that the hypothetical disabled person would have one of those motorised disability vehicle things of their own quite possibly. Also might ask for proof (not just the personal records of someone with a vested interest) of just how often there was a disabled person turning up in a car/had they come a distance that was too far for them to use one of those motorised disability vehicle things of their own etc etc.

    The Council won't want all the other residents to suddenly find they had a new friend - one who needed/"needed" disabled access.
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 25-11-2017 at 10:23 AM.
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 25th Nov 17, 10:22 AM
    • 14,583 Posts
    • 39,976 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    Except for the minor detail that, no matter how much you wish it was, it simply isn't a driveway for a motor vehicle - a quick glance at the lack of dropped kerb tells you that.

    You can call it what you like - a patio, a runway, a drive, a helipad - but it's a tarmacced bit of front garden. No more, no less. You can put your wheelybins there, your bicycle, whatever you like - but you definitely cannot put a motor vehicle there. Not legally.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Actually - if there is a technicality/law/whatever out there that says "A drive isnt a drive unless it has a dropped kerb to it - otherwise it is just tarmac instead of grass iyswim" I'd be genuinely quite interested to read that personally
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 25th Nov 17, 10:26 AM
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    AdrianC
    Like I said - you can call it what you like, but if a "drive" is "somewhere to park a motor vehicle off the public highway", then it simply fails to meet that definition, because you can't get the motor vehicle onto it legally.

    Oh, and the legislation that says you can't? Highways Act 1980, section 184.
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/184
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 25th Nov 17, 10:34 AM
    • 6,508 Posts
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    davidmcn
    Do you have a disability, or have a frequent visitor that has a disability?

    You may be able to appeal on the grounds of restricted access for disabled persons. Perhaps that person would be liable to injury if they were to trip on the kerb getting out of the car. Councils have to make reasonable adjustments in such cases.
    Take photos of said person struggling to get out of the car, negotiate the kerb and pathway, and anything else on council property.
    Originally posted by Margot123
    No, you don't get exemption from normal planning etc policies to carry out permanent alterations just because of the temporary circumstances of the residents, let alone their visitors.

    At best (if there is a resident with a blue badge) they might create a blue badge space on the road outside.
    • Typhoon2000
    • By Typhoon2000 25th Nov 17, 11:59 AM
    • 796 Posts
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    Typhoon2000
    Like I said - you can call it what you like, but if a "drive" is "somewhere to park a motor vehicle off the public highway", then it simply fails to meet that definition, because you can't get the motor vehicle onto it legally.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/184
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    You could it lifted on to the drive by one of those tow away type trucks
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 25th Nov 17, 12:04 PM
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    AdrianC
    You could it lifted on to the drive by one of those tow away type trucks
    Originally posted by Typhoon2000
    Yes, there is that option...
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 25th Nov 17, 12:25 PM
    • 3,895 Posts
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    EachPenny
    Actually - if there is a technicality/law/whatever out there that says "A drive isnt a drive unless it has a dropped kerb to it - otherwise it is just tarmac instead of grass iyswim" I'd be genuinely quite interested to read that personally
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    Like I said - you can call it what you like, but if a "drive" is "somewhere to park a motor vehicle off the public highway", then it simply fails to meet that definition, because you can't get the motor vehicle onto it legally.

    Oh, and the legislation that says you can't? Highways Act 1980, section 184.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your viewpoint) Section 184 doesn't actually have that effect.

    Section 184 is a permissive section - it gives powers to HA's to do certain things, and also rights to landowners to ask (require?) the HA to do something. But it doesn't actually make it illegal to drive over a kerbed verge/footway to get onto a 'driveway' except in one specific situation.

    And that situation is only where the HA has gone through the process specified in S184(1) and "impos[ed] such reasonable conditions on the use of the footway or verge as a crossing as may be so specified".

    The offence under S184(17) only applies in relation to failure to comply with conditions in a S184(1)(b) notice.

    Furthermore, since the conditions have to be "reasonable", the HA cannot simply say "because we say so". There is a common law right of access to land adjoining the public highway and the HA can only interfere with that right if there are good grounds for doing so. These might include damage to the kerb or verge, or if use of the access poses a real safety concern. Factors that might be relevant are set out in S184(5) which include "the passage of vehicular traffic in highways" (Note: vehicular, not pedestrian traffic!)

    In most* cases if you drive a vehicle over a verge or footway with no dropped kerb and park it wholly on your 'driveway' then you commit no offence. The risk of committing an offence is if part of the vehicle remains overhanging the footway in which case it would be the offence of obstruction, not of driving over the verge/footway. (*But there are special circumstances where it could be an offence, too complex to go into here)

    Councils specifying a minimum depth for a driveway aren't doing so because this is a legal requirement, instead it is because they believe the offence of obstruction might result from the use of such a drive. As any good lawyer will tell you, this places the Council in a legally dubious position

    In the case of the disabled passenger mentioned above, the car could be driven onto the 'drive' (assuming none of the special circumstances apply) in order to allow the passenger to alight. Although technically an offence of obstruction might be committed if part of the vehicle overhangs the footway, the prospect of successful prosecution is zero as it has been established in law that minor cases of obstruction are permissable. (Technically you 'obstruct' the highway every time you park, other than in a marked bay). To be safe, the car should only be 'parked' for so long as it takes for the passenger to alight (and to be assisted into the house if necessary).

    In some places the law is changing and HA's will have the power to stop people driving over a verge or footway without using S184. But the situation is complicated and there are other mechanisms Councils can use to achieve the same effect - so anyone thinking of spending money building a 'drive' without provision of a dropped kerb would be well advised not to do it.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 25th Nov 17, 2:43 PM
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    unforeseen
    However Southall being in London means that it is an offence to park on the pavement unless signs allow it.
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 25th Nov 17, 4:49 PM
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    EachPenny
    However Southall being in London means that it is an offence to park on the pavement unless signs allow it.
    Originally posted by unforeseen
    London is one of the special cases though. The boroughs have additional powers under Section 16 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 in relation to crossovers and preventing people bumping over a kerb/footway/verge
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/16/enacted

    However, the harsher nature of the 2003 Act means that affected people have a statutory right of objection to the Council, and if the objection is overruled they can then appeal to the county court on various grounds including "(c) that the requirement in the notice is unreasonable."

    I'm not aware of any cases actually being taken to the county court, but could imagine some difficulties for a council saying they won't provide a crossover because a driveway is 4.6m rather than 4.8m. Given that on appeal "the court shall make such order as it thinks fit", it is plausible that someone might end up with a court order requiring the council to provide a crossover (at the landowners expense) but also requiring the landowner not to use the driveway to park a vehicle which overhangs the footway.

    Additionally (although it might appear pedantic) the phrase "offence to park on the pavement" is not strictly accurate. The original legislation required "one or more wheels [to be] resting on" but this has subsequently been amended to an "parked on or over" formulation. This is because the original legislation contained a loophole that if the wheels were on a driveway but the vehicle overhung the footway then it wasn't an offence under this section. Worse - you could park with one set of wheels on a drive and one set on the cariageway (i.e. bridging over the footway, obstructing it completely) and that wouldn't have counted as a footway parking offence.

    Because this is one of the offences which in London have been decriminalised and are enforced by the boroughs as parking contraventions, the amendment to "on or over" means that (in London) you can get a parking ticket for having part of your vehicle overhanging the footway.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • davemorton
    • By davemorton 25th Nov 17, 5:16 PM
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    davemorton
    You could it lifted on to the drive by one of those tow away type trucks
    Originally posted by Typhoon2000
    Wouldnt that make it a 'lift' instead of a 'drive'?
    Im a board guide on Pie Making Moneysaving. I'm a volunteer to help the pie production & consumption run smoothly. I can help merge tastes and fillings. Any pies made are mine & are not those of other Moneysavingexperts. Im a board guide not a qualified baker and as such do not make every type of pie. If you spot a quiche or flan please report it.
    • catshark88
    • By catshark88 26th Nov 17, 1:05 PM
    • 994 Posts
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    catshark88
    Oh for goodness sake. Just keep 12 strong men stationed outside your house at all times, to carry the car onto the not-a-drive as required. Simples.
    "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful." William Morris
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