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Private PCN received, advice needed
Wolfy6
Posts: 6 Forumite
Hello everyone,
I've had a look through the NEWBIES guide but I still have a couple of questions, hope this is ok.
The registered keeper of the vehicle got a PCN through the post from NPS for parking between 17:44 and 17:59 without paying. The car park in question is next to a new block of flats that are still being built.
We're about to go to the car park again and have a look to see if there are any clear signs that it is a pay and display car park since it is in a poorly lit area.
My questions are as follows:
1. If, say, there is a giant, well-lit sign that it is a pay and display car park with all the required info on it, can we still appeal on grounds that it is a first offence/it was only for 15 minutes to pick someone up and £60 (£100 in full) is a ridiculous amount?
2. Are there any other grounds on which to appeal this or are we better off by just paying it instead of wasting time and appealing?
Thank you!
I've had a look through the NEWBIES guide but I still have a couple of questions, hope this is ok.
The registered keeper of the vehicle got a PCN through the post from NPS for parking between 17:44 and 17:59 without paying. The car park in question is next to a new block of flats that are still being built.
We're about to go to the car park again and have a look to see if there are any clear signs that it is a pay and display car park since it is in a poorly lit area.
My questions are as follows:
1. If, say, there is a giant, well-lit sign that it is a pay and display car park with all the required info on it, can we still appeal on grounds that it is a first offence/it was only for 15 minutes to pick someone up and £60 (£100 in full) is a ridiculous amount?
2. Are there any other grounds on which to appeal this or are we better off by just paying it instead of wasting time and appealing?
Thank you!
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Comments
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1) no , none of those grounds are valid for any appeal , especially the charge cost as that was lost 2.5 years ago in the BEAVIS case
2) yes and no , all detailed in that template of the NEWBIES sticky thread , although nobody here would recommend you pay
appeal points are usually as follows
NO LANDOWNER CONTRACT
NO CONTRACT TO PARK
FORBIDDING SIGNAGE
POOR AND INADEQUATE SIGNAGE
any CoP failures
any NTK failures
any POFA2012 failures
GRACE PERIODS0 -
(Forget mitigating circumstances/first offence etc - these companies aren't interested)
Throughout here you are advised never to reveal who was driving.
You need to edit your post to remove details of who was driving0 -
(Forget mitigating circumstances/first offence etc - these companies aren't interested)
Throughout here you are advised never to reveal who was driving.
You need to edit your post to remove details of who was driving
I did read the two stickied posts before posting, sorry if I asked something that's already in there but I didn't see anything mentioned about what grounds you can appeal on except the ones in the template (the ones about signage and retail/hospital parking. Thank you for the heads up, I've edited my post.
Thank you for the replies, I need to go have a look at their signage.
What are the "no landowner contract" and "no contract to park" appeal points? I have already checked the others (apart from signage) and they don't apply in this case.0 -
I think you are wrong
GRACE PERIODS before and after a parking event are always valid if the overstay is under 20 minutes
the popla appeal points in post #3 are typical appeal points , especially the NO LANDOWNER CONTRACT , because unless these companies own the land (they rarely do) they need a valid contract in place that traces back to the actual landowner
I do not believe you have seen this valid contract as they rarely show it , especially not until they are in court (they claim its confidential)
the signage must have clear terms of the parking contract entered into by the victim , so if there was no contract to park then that is another appeal point
clearly the signage is a valid appeal point (it almost always is)
I doubt that it was a paying car park, it probably needed permits to park and so the signage was probably forbidding signage , so the grace period point would apply (park , read signs , realise you cannot park there , depart)
I also find it hard to believe that NPS complied with POFA2012, to hold a keeper liable , plus I doubt they met all the points !!!
not sure how you can be so confident that this PPC have followed each and every one of the points I outlined , it is rare for a PPC to have full compliance in all areas
I doubt that they have met all the points in the BPA CoP
PE did when they beat BEAVIS , but I doubt NPS have done so0 -
I think you are wrong
GRACE PERIODS before and after a parking event are always valid if the overstay is under 20 minutes
the popla appeal points in post #3 are typical appeal points , especially the NO LANDOWNER CONTRACT , because unless these companies own the land (they rarely do) they need a valid contract in place that traces back to the actual landowner
I do not believe you have seen this valid contract as they rarely show it , especially not until they are in court (they claim its confidential)
the signage must have clear terms of the parking contract entered into by the victim , so if there was no contract to park then that is another appeal point
clearly the signage is a valid appeal point (it almost always is)
I doubt that it was a paying car park, it probably needed permits to park and so the signage was probably forbidding signage , so the grace period point would apply (park , read signs , realise you cannot park there , depart)
I also find it hard to believe that NPS complied with POFA2012, to hold a keeper liable , plus I doubt they met all the points !!!
not sure how you can be so confident that this PPC have followed each and every one of the points I outlined , it is rare for a PPC to have full compliance in all areas
I doubt that they have met all the points in the BPA CoP
PE did when they beat BEAVIS , but I doubt NPS have done so
I have just been to the car park and took pictures of their signs. I've attached photographs with the signs but I can't tell if they are fully compliant or not. Sorry for the potato quality, esp. for the one with the terms and conditions but I was trying to show how it's really difficult to make out in the dark.
Would the grace period still apply even though the BPA CoP states a minimum of 10 minutes? Would they just not say that this has been 15 minutes so that does not apply?
I've had another read through the BPA CoP and the POFA2012 and I can't find any obvious point where they did not comply. However, I have 0 experience with these kinds of things, so I'm not 100% sure that they are compliant. Would it be useful if I uploaded a copy of the PCN? Or do I just go on with my initial appeal and focus on these things for the POPLA appeal?
On a slightly unrelated note, I'm sure this is one of the things they rely on, that people won't have the time or willpower or knowledge to read everything in order for them to appeal.
Sorry about all the questions but I'm trying to get to grips with the whole thing. And I really do appreciate your help!
It's not letting me attach the photos since I'm a new user, but I've uploaded them on imgur and the link ends in /a/vnFr0 (hope this isn't breaking any rules).0 -
of course they would say that 15 minutes exceeds the BPA CoP , so if the vehicle was prevented from parking or leaving this would add to the time of the stay
saying its a first "offence" wont wash though
nor will saying the driver was waiting for a passenger
the typical waiting time is usually 10 minutes or less
but the keeper can still put them to strict proof of this grace period time as some sites let you have 20 or 30 minutes for example (or even up to one hour)
you focus on these items in the popla appeal, the newbies sticky thread tells you this and suggests a template in blue text for the initial appeal, which is CANCEL OR ISSUE A POPLA CODE
surely you read this ?
you are correct that they rely on people just caving in and paying , usually due to a lack of knowledge about this topic , hence the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread
as you said however , you do not know about this topic and so you query everything and accept nothing at face value (or what their response might be)
if you do not query something with popla , it wont be considered , hence why you throw everything in and make it as hard as possible for the PPC
this is why you ASSUME that all their compliance issues have failed and you query each and every issue , including signage , its is for them to prove their case on each and every point , you only have to win on a single point
ITS EITHER PAY , OR APPEAL , your choice
clearly you have some issue about paying or you would not be here asking about appealing (and the initial appeal is already written for you)
you should also be checking the timeline by looking at the postmark on the pcn and the date the pcn was issued, then check if it came in the correct time period (by day 15 for an NTK if no windscreen ticket was issued)
and you check the wording on the NTK meets schedule 4 of the POFA2012
if it fails either or both , then it fails POFA2012 and the keeper is not liable0 -
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we are going to need a daylight photo of that sign , or one with a flash so we can read the terms and conditions that apply for a driver to park there
it says pay to park , so clearly some form of payment was required , or the driver should have left in 10 minutes or less
so the driver should have bought a parking ticket whilst waiting for the passenger , and didnt pay at all , hence the pcn
in theory the driver has failed the parking contract and so is liable for the £100 stated on the sign
the fact the signage is poorly lit is one point in any appeal, because the argument would be that the driver did not see the sign and did not know that they had to pay
but if the PPC failed on any legal point , then the keeper is not liable
also cannot see the pcn or the dates of when it was issued , or posted , or postmarked , or received0 -
Thank you everyone for the help. I'll use the template for an initial appeal and take it from there.
The PCN was issued 7 dates after the contravention so they're withing the 14 days. !!!!!!!s were quick.0
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