Reason for bankruptcy
Comments
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scootw1 wrote:Well, yes I have an approximate dates for the last loan I took out for consoliation. It was a couple of years ago but I couldn't say for sure if it was 2004 (I honestly can't remember). I don't know what year the first loan for consolidation was. Wouldn't the OR be able to get that information from the bank?
What I spent the loan money on was consolidation in both cases. The debts were buily up by buying stuff and some through gambling. I can't say exactly what I spent it on though. Can I be prosecuted for that/ Jail time etc? I've still got quite a few old credit card statements if that's any help but I don't know if I still have the loan agreements.
No, debt in itself, without fraud, is not a jailable offence!! Nor can you be prosecuted for stupidity. A lot of people in debt can be said to be guilty of being stupid with money.
However, if you are given a BRU and you default, it becomes an imprisonable offence.0 -
missimaxo wrote:Maybe - it will depend on what you spent the money on, proof (ie. if they think you are willfully failing to account).
Gambling over 2 years ago should not be a problem. Any misconduct over 2 years ago is considered to be "stale".
The other thing to consider is that if you have stopped paying your IVA, the supervisor of the IVA will make you bankrupt anyway!
The courts may well have a waiting time to actually hear you case - one court near where I am is now making appointments for April! They are booked up until then.
You will need more dates and details about what you spent the money on. Try and find any old statements, if it has geuinely been used on consolidation, then the fact that you can't afford an IVA shouldn't matter too much, what worries me most is that you claim you don't know dates. You should at least know approximate dates.
BTW - failure to account is a prosecutable offence in bankruptcy. Not being able to remember but being able to give approximate dates should be sufficient.
The "failure to account" is for not keeping accounts when a business is involved.
Individuals are not required to keep accounts for themselves. The information on credit card applications, loans, hp, etc, will be found on the CRF.0 -
missimaxo wrote:
The other thing to consider is that if you have stopped paying your IVA, the supervisor of the IVA will make you bankrupt anyway!
No, that is not true actually, that solely depends on the terms and conditions of the individual IVA.
I know Scoot's case and his IP has NOT made him bankrupt and is not going to do so. Scoot is saving the money to make himself bankrupt.0 -
scootw1 wrote:Is it going to be seen in a bad light then? Is the OR going to impose more restrictions if he thinks I'm just trying to get away with paying less back?
Scoot, I know your own circumstances, and since -
1. your IP was negligent in the amount he expected you to pay in the IVA
2. Your IP refused to renegotiate your IVA
They left you with no choice.
The only restriction that could be imposed on you is a BRU.
Don't worry about it, they cannot take what you haven't got to give.
Have a lovely Christmas knowing that the New Year will bring you some peace of mind.0 -
sandralovescats wrote:The "failure to account" is for not keeping accounts when a business is involved.
Individuals are not required to keep accounts for themselves. The information on credit card applications, loans, hp, etc, will be found on the CRF.
I don't want to get into an arguenment - but Failure to account DOES NOT just apply to businesses. I work for the OR and have written statements of facts for referral for prosecution for failure to account on bankrupt non traders.
We would not prosecute for stupidity, we would prosecute if it appears to us that someone is trying to hide things from us. It is a fine line. Someone I would consider failing to account would be where they could give no information about dates/ how their debt arose OR someone who gave conflicting stories. The first consideration would be a suspension of discharge. We do not do a BRO/BRU when an SOD is in place. If the preson continues to fail to account, we would consider a prosecution if it was willful.
One such example of a FTA was when the CRF showed when all the credit was taken out, but the bankrupt would not state what he spent it on. A large amount of credit (and I am not saying this is what Scoot has done) in a short space of time would ring warning bells. But we also understand that people are human and can forget.0 -
sandralovescats wrote:No, that is not true actually, that solely depends on the terms and conditions of the individual IVA.
I know Scoot's case and his IP has NOT made him bankrupt and is not going to do so. Scoot is saving the money to make himself bankrupt.
As far as I am aware all IPA's have the bankruptcy clause in them. If Scoots IP is not making him bankrupt then fair enough - but I suspect the clause is their in his terms and conditions. With the incease in IVA's over the past year - we have also seen a huge increase in failed IVA's where the IP makes them bankrupt.0 -
sandralovescats wrote:Scoot, I know your own circumstances, and since -
1. your IP was negligent in the amount he expected you to pay in the IVA
2. Your IP refused to renegotiate your IVA
They left you with no choice.
The only restriction that could be imposed on you is a BRU.
Don't worry about it, they cannot take what you haven't got to give.
Have a lovely Christmas knowing that the New Year will bring you some peace of mind.
I agree - I don't know your situation Scoot, but if the IVA is failing months into it then it does appear the IP was negligent and/or you were advised badly.
Unless there are other areas of misconduct, it is unlikely a BRU/BRO will be sought. As I said before, gambling over 2 years ago is stale, and consolidation is fine. You have done everything in your power, sought advice from supposedly qualified people, it is not your fault if you were misadvised, therefore I think a BRU is unlikely.
I do hope you have a happy christmas and new year. A couple of months won't make much of a difference with regards to filing.0 -
missimaxo wrote:I don't want to get into an arguenment - but Failure to account DOES NOT just apply to businesses. I work for the OR and have written statements of facts for referral for prosecution for failure to account on bankrupt non traders.
We would not prosecute for stupidity, we would prosecute if it appears to us that someone is trying to hide things from us. It is a fine line. Someone I would consider failing to account would be where they could give no information about dates/ how their debt arose OR someone who gave conflicting stories. The first consideration would be a suspension of discharge. We do not do a BRO/BRU when an SOD is in place. If the preson continues to fail to account, we would consider a prosecution if it was willful.
One such example of a FTA was when the CRF showed when all the credit was taken out, but the bankrupt would not state what he spent it on. A large amount of credit (and I am not saying this is what Scoot has done) in a short space of time would ring warning bells. But we also understand that people are human and can forget.
I understand all of that!
What you are describing would be better termed "fraud".
The vast majority of people don't set out to defraud any of their creditors, they simply get into a spiral of debt that careers out of control, or they have a change of circumstances which completely knocks them over.
Most ordinary folk don't actually do any personal accounting until they start to run into trouble. BTW this doesn't apply to me personally, just in case you're wondering, I was self-employed for over 23 years and kept perfect accounts without an accountant and I have not gone bankrupt, I am in a lump sum IVA pending a Medical Negligence Claim.
All this information is very enlightening. At the end of the day most of us have no idea how the powers of the OR's Office actually work, etc. In a lot of ways it takes the fear away for most folks, fear of the unknown. I do a lot of counselling work to try to help folks in trouble, financial and otherwise and it helps me to help them rather than to frighten them!0 -
sandralovescats wrote:I understand all of that!
What you are describing would be better termed "fraud".
I agree - I termed it failure to account as DTI actually prosecute under S354 of the Insolvency Act 1986 which is failure to account. I guess I get too used to technical terms without realising what they mean to none insolvency people (sorry).0 -
When you go bankrupt, does the OR ask where you have spent all your money leading up to the bankruptcy? I had to borrow off a friend to tide me over and have to pay them back so this is where some money is going. Can I tell the OR that or will they see it in a dim light?missimaxo wrote:I agree - I don't know your situation Scoot, but if the IVA is failing months into it then it does appear the IP was negligent and/or you were advised badly.
Unless there are other areas of misconduct, it is unlikely a BRU/BRO will be sought. As I said before, gambling over 2 years ago is stale, and consolidation is fine. You have done everything in your power, sought advice from supposedly qualified people, it is not your fault if you were misadvised, therefore I think a BRU is unlikely.
I do hope you have a happy christmas and new year. A couple of months won't make much of a difference with regards to filing.
I have asked this before and had good feedback but thought I'd ask again now that a coupe of people from the ORs office have turned up.
(I'm not committing fraud or anything, just wondering if you have to account for everything.)0
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