Redundancy/redeployment in NHS advice please

sadders · 10 December 2017 at 2:06PM

I am a Band 7 Allied Health Professional (Podiatrist) in the NHS. I have essentially been in the same job for 23 years climbing grades. The trust has changed several times in my employment.

I am asking as my union rep is away and I want to have an idea where I stand.

My department is going through a 70% cut and my post is being deleted so I know I will have changes. So far everyone in my department has been redeployed to jobs they are happy with. We had the policy to replace leaving staff with locums in anticipation of this to lessen the impact. I am the last one to be sorted.

All through the process we have been told that any redeployment has to be at least a 75% match of current role and there would be no cross band matching. I am the most qualified person in my department although the new post is one that I have no specialist training in.

I have been 'offered' a job at a lower band (band 6) that would either be very different from my current role or I would end up doing the same on a lower band. I am the only one to be 'offered' a lower band. I have put commas around offered as its a take it or make yourself voluntarily unemployed situation. In the interview I was told categorically that the trust has a no redundancy policy which to me implies that fairness is not the main consideration.

I would have pay protection for 3 years.

To throw a spanner in the works I have wangled an interview for a band 6 NHS job in my local trust. A lower band but on my terms and much less travel. Would lose inner London weighting though.

I am in a mess and confused what to do. I want to tell them to shove their de-banding and walk (and probably will into the other job if I get it) despite the loss of pay.

I am really angry about this, not sleeping and feel intermittently nauseous.

Do I have a case?
Can I claim constructive dismissal if I walk? It feels like I cant stay and have no options.
Can I force a redundancy?
Do I have to accept the de-banding offer to have any chance of a claim?
Do I just have to suck it up and accept it or take the other job (if I get it?

Some of this may be coming from anger and me wanting to hurt my employers and some of it is coming from a position where I feel that I am being really hard done by.

Any advice would be appreciated.

With huge thanks in anticipation of responses.

gettingtheresometime · 10 December 2017 at 10:15PM

I have no idea of the legality of what is being offered but I’d say this.

You may be angry but if you leave will you really hurt your employers or will it be a case that they dodged a bullet?

When do you have the interview?

getmore4less · 11 December 2017 at 7:20AM

they can have a no redundancy policy but that is meaningless if your post is redundant(which it looks like it is) and there are no suitable alternatives

The key will be Suitable alternative, this can be quite subjective on top of quantitative measures.

2 key quantitative measures are

location
You have not said but seems to be same trust and the policy would have a wide catchment of locations I know those round us do.

pay,

the 3 year protection is probably going to be enough to make that a non starter.
What spine pt change will it be going from B7-B6 given the ranges over lap.(B7 £32k-£42k : B6 £27k-£36k)

I would end up doing the same on a lower band.

if they are saying you have been rebanded so it is the same job then the only difference is the pay then that will be a tough one with the pay protection.
what's the job really worth, might have been lucky for a few years if it was over graded or have they just eliminated the B7 job and created a B6 one

have been 'offered' a job at a lower band (band 6) that would either be very different from my current role

that one you have a better chance of declining as not suitable but the details will be important

One thing you do need to look at carefully is the pension as you will either way be going to a lower salary, now or in 3 years or leaving completely.

A quick look on the job sites and there are a few B7 jobs in the London area.
what do you want to do career wise are there opportunities for progression, this could be the time to look at the next move, 23y in the same place you can get stale. if travelling into London there are lots of options

The problem with angry is you can loose site of objective options.

once the Union are back you can look at

Is this really a B7 job, can you fight to get it reinstated.

3 years pay protection gives plenty of time to find another B7 job or wait for a better job more local, also time to assess the impact on pensions.

There will be other things to consider, in my experience fighting change can be very negative, even if successful in protecting a position you can become a target, embracing the needs for change can give more control over your future and if you don't like it move on in a controlled way.

One thing to watch out for is your anger for your current place does not come through at interviews.

Manxman_in_exile · 13 December 2017 at 5:24PM

getmore4less wrote: »

they can have a no redundancy policy but that is meaningless if your post is redundant(which it looks like it is) and there are no suitable alternatives

The key will be Suitable alternative, this can be quite subjective on top of quantitative measures.

2 key quantitative measures are

location
You have not said but seems to be same trust and the policy would have a wide catchment of locations I know those round us do.

pay,

the 3 year protection is probably going to be enough to make that a non starter.
What spine pt change will it be going from B7-B6 given the ranges over lap.(B7 £32k-£42k : B6 £27k-£36k)

I would end up doing the same on a lower band.

if they are saying you have been rebanded so it is the same job then the only difference is the pay then that will be a tough one with the pay protection.
what's the job really worth, might have been lucky for a few years if it was over graded or have they just eliminated the B7 job and created a B6 one

have been 'offered' a job at a lower band (band 6) that would either be very different from my current role

that one you have a better chance of declining as not suitable but the details will be important

One thing you do need to look at carefully is the pension as you will either way be going to a lower salary, now or in 3 years or leaving completely.

A quick look on the job sites and there are a few B7 jobs in the London area.
what do you want to do career wise are there opportunities for progression, this could be the time to look at the next move, 23y in the same place you can get stale. if travelling into London there are lots of options

The problem with angry is you can loose site of objective options.

once the Union are back you can look at

Is this really a B7 job, can you fight to get it reinstated.

3 years pay protection gives plenty of time to find another B7 job or wait for a better job more local, also time to assess the impact on pensions.

There will be other things to consider, in my experience fighting change can be very negative, even if successful in protecting a position you can become a target, embracing the needs for change can give more control over your future and if you don't like it move on in a controlled way.

One thing to watch out for is your anger for your current place does not come through at interviews.

That all looks like good advice to me.

What version of the NHS pension scheme are you in as this (together with your age and service) will affect any redundancy options you may be offered?

I was in a very similar position five years ago. Two trusts merged and they needed to lose about 100 admin posts. My job (also band 7) completely disappeared from the new structure at the last moment, but I would have been happy to accept the previous proposal to stay in post at band 6.

By this stage I actually wanted to leave the new trust (they offered a good redundancy package) but was afraid they would redeploy me into a suitable alternative post (at band 6) to avoid redundancy costs. But they clearly wanted me completely out ASAP as (unlike others) I was not encouraged or pressured to apply for other suitable posts.

I was angry too but soon got over it when I realised I no longer wanted to work there - and I'm glad I don't. From having a good clinical and management reputation just a few years ago, it's been in special measures, three or four exec directors have resigned in the last year, and it's now one of the worst performing trusts in the country.

EDIT: I think you definitely need Union advice. If your local rep is unavailable at the moment, have you tried regional office? You may want your local rep to refer it there anyway.

sangie595 · 13 December 2017 at 9:53PM

There's one very simple fact here. You have three years pay protection. That means you will never win any type of unfair dismissal claim. Angry or not, you must suck it up unless or until you gain other employment. Sorry, and it may not be what you want, but three years pay protection is amongst the best deal in the country - and given that tribunals now routinely accept pay cuts rather than redundancy payments, angry or not, you are extremely lucky to have that option. Don't focus on what you can do to turn back the clock or get even - that is all a non starter. Use the opportunity to continue on your current rate for a very long time to make the right decisions - not knee jerk reactions you may live to regret.

Manxman_in_exile · 14 December 2017 at 1:07AM

sadders wrote: »

I am a Band 7 Allied Health Professional (Podiatrist) in the NHS. I have essentially been in the same job for 23 years climbing grades. The trust has changed several times in my employment.

I am asking as my union rep is away and I want to have an idea where I stand.

My department is going through a 70% cut and my post is being deleted so I know I will have changes. So far everyone in my department has been redeployed to jobs they are happy with. We had the policy to replace leaving staff with locums in anticipation of this to lessen the impact. I am the last one to be sorted.

All through the process we have been told that any redeployment has to be at least a 75% match of current role and there would be no cross band matching. I am the most qualified person in my department although the new post is one that I have no specialist training in.

I have been 'offered' a job at a lower band (band 6) that would either be very different from my current role or I would end up doing the same on a lower band. I am the only one to be 'offered' a lower band. I have put commas around offered as its a take it or make yourself voluntarily unemployed situation. In the interview I was told categorically that the trust has a no redundancy policy which to me implies that fairness is not the main consideration.

I would have pay protection for 3 years.

To throw a spanner in the works I have wangled an interview for a band 6 NHS job in my local trust. A lower band but on my terms and much less travel. Would lose inner London weighting though.

I am in a mess and confused what to do. I want to tell them to shove their de-banding and walk (and probably will into the other job if I get it) despite the loss of pay.

I am really angry about this, not sleeping and feel intermittently nauseous.

Do I have a case?
Can I claim constructive dismissal if I walk? It feels like I cant stay and have no options.
Can I force a redundancy?
Do I have to accept the de-banding offer to have any chance of a claim?
Do I just have to suck it up and accept it or take the other job (if I get it?

Some of this may be coming from anger and me wanting to hurt my employers and some of it is coming from a position where I feel that I am being really hard done by.

Any advice would be appreciated.

With huge thanks in anticipation of responses.

First, I would agree with sangie. Three year's pay protection and staying in the NHS scheme is worth its weight in gold - act in anger and you will regret it - you have 23 years service.

Second, your trust may tell you they have a "no redundancy" policy but it certainly sounds like a redundancy situation. Your job has disappeared. That is redundancy. But a band 6 post is almost certainly a suitable alternative post. (I always understood plus (ha!) or minus one band to be considered a suitable alternative, if you were appropriately qualified. Ask your union what options you have open to you.

Third, apparently everybody else has been accommodated except you. Do you think they may want to get rid of you? No shame in that, it happened to me too. I thought it unfair and unjust, but, at the same time, I could be very awkward and could see why management wanted to get rid of me at that time for the trust. (But I also got quite a good deal out of it).

My suggestions are:

1. Get good union advice from regional office if needs be. It sounds to me like they ought to be well aware of this situation and should provide appropriate advice. sangie may disagree, but I think regional officers can advise you better than your local "lay" rep.

2. Take the band 6 post with three years protection as a fall-back position. It's a no-brainer to stay in the NHS scheme and gives you breathing space.

3. If you think they want to get rid of you, get a job in another trust ASAP.

4. Have you thought of private practise? I met my podiatrist (as a private client) when he still worked for the NHS. He went on to be Head of Dept (higher than band 7) but then left the NHS to work only privately. He was delighted to leave the NHS, but had already built up a private practice.

Redundancy/redeployment in NHS advice please

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