Wye Valley PCN

llcomp2 · 5 May 2017 at 3:20PM

Hi all,

I am looking for some advice on how to go about appealing a PCN.

The keeper received a PCN from Parking Eye, for being parked at the Wye Valley Visitors centre.

The Automatic Number Plate Recognition clocked the information that it was parked for 16 minutes longer than it should, however parking tickets show it was an overstay of 12 minutes after the ticket ran out.

My current arguments are:

The driver was a genuine paying customer

No obvious signs to make clear to driver there is Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) before entering the car park and no barrier on the car park entry or exit.

And the BPA Codes of Practice, Section 13.4 for grace periods leaving the car park being a minimum of 10 mins

I have read the BPA PD&S Board meeting minutes from 30th July 2015 of an agreement supporting the 13.4 clause to reflect a mandatory 11 minute grace but I have not found any other information to back this up.

Thanks in advance!

Fruitcake · 5 May 2017 at 3:45PM

Edit your post to remove information about who did what. You have given enough information to identify the driver.
Delete the times and only refer to The Driver and The Keeper. These are separate people as far as anyone is concerned.

Then, send the BPA template in blue from the NEWBIES thread which you should have already read by now. Copy and paste and send. No editing. Your other appeal points should be saved for your PoPLA appeal where you will refer, amongst other things, to both grace periods from the BPA CoP.

Fruitcake · 5 May 2017 at 3:58PM

That's better.

llcomp2 · 5 May 2017 at 4:00PM

Fruitcake wrote: »

That's better.

Thanks Fruitcake!

Any other advice on grounds to appeal the PCN?

Fruitcake · 5 May 2017 at 4:02PM

llcomp2 wrote: »

Thanks Fruitcake!

Any other advice on grounds to appeal the PCN?

Does the NTK have a paragraph mentioning something like, "if after 29 days ..." or is there a blank space as if something is missing? An example of the latter is shown in the NEWBIES.

All your appeal points are in template form in post 3 of the NEWBIES, but you need to send the initial BPA template in blue first to get the PoPLA code.

So, initial template appeal now then research your PoPLA appeal afterwards.

Redx · 5 May 2017 at 4:38PM

read my comments on the grace period aspect in these threads

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5644298

and

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5611760

and

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5644429

there are many more examples of this valid legal argument on the forum too

now if we assume 6 minutes BEFORE the parking time starts , to enter, find a space , park up , read the signs , pay for a ticket and place it on the vehicle , plus over 10 minutes to leave the car park (11 minutes or more if delayed by circumstances beyond your control) , then 6 + 10 is within clause #13 of the BPA CoP , grace periods

its a time before and a time after , not just time after

plus add the other legal arguments as well

so 11 minutes or 16 minutes , its stilll 2 grace periods , before and after , with a possible maximum considered to be 10 before and 11 after = 21 minutes in total

llcomp2 · 5 May 2017 at 5:09PM

Fruitcake wrote: »

Does the NTK have a paragraph mentioning something like, "if after 29 days ..." or is there a blank space as if something is missing? An example of the latter is shown in the NEWBIES.

All your appeal points are in template form in post 3 of the NEWBIES, but you need to send the initial BPA template in blue first to get the PoPLA code.

So, initial template appeal now then research your PoPLA appeal afterwards.

Great. Thank for your advice. Under the 'protection of freedoms act' it states after 29 days they have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charges from the keeper.

Also, appeals need to be made within 28 days.

Do Parking eye have a time limit they need to respond to appeals within?

Redx · 5 May 2017 at 5:14PM

for POFA to apply PE have to get the initial pcn to the keeper within 14 days

the keeper has up to 28 days to appeal (using the blue text template) on their website , as KEEPER

PE then have 14 days to acknowledge and 35 days to reply according to the BPA CoP (I suggest you download it and read it , carefully)

llcomp2 · 5 May 2017 at 5:24PM

Redx wrote: »

read my comments on the grace period aspect in these threads

there are many more examples of this valid legal argument on the forum too

now if we assume 6 minutes BEFORE the parking time starts , to enter, find a space , park up , read the signs , pay for a ticket and place it on the vehicle , plus over 10 minutes to leave the car park (11 minutes or more if delayed by circumstances beyond your control) , then 6 + 10 is within clause #13 of the BPA CoP , grace periods

its a time before and a time after , not just time after

plus add the other legal arguments as well

so 11 minutes or 16 minutes , its stilll 2 grace periods , before and after , with a possible maximum considered to be 10 before and 11 after = 21 minutes in total

Thanks for this, I shall read over them in more detail. Just to clarify, if there was an overstay 12 mins after the ticket had expired, would combining the two grace periods still be a case to argue? I assume they would need proof of ticket purchase to claim that only the second grace period applys. (if it's not the case)

Hope this makes sense!

Redx · 5 May 2017 at 5:28PM

you dont appear to have grasped the argument yet

they are alleging that there is an overstay of say 12 minutes AFTER the ticket expired , so they have conveniently IGNORED the fact that a grace period applies BEFORE the ticket even started

they monitor time on site , and compare it against the time paid for, so that means there is a discrepancy of 12 minutes (or 16 minutes overall)

the BPA CoP states that 2 grace periods apply , it doesnt say how long the initial one is , but that OVER 10 minutes applies after the parking period ends (to leave the car park)

so if you said 2 minutes to park up, read the signs and pay for a ticket , plus 10 minutes to leave, the combined total means the 12 minutes can be accounted for due to 2 grace periods applying

remember, their cameras record time on site , they dont record the vehicle actually parking up , nor leaving , they compare time on site against time paid for

their ANPR shows time on site at 16 minutes greater than the time paid for , but also the BPA CoP states that the allowed departure grace period is OVER 10 minutes (so does not specify an actual time period) , so any delay in getting out of that car park would add to the time before the camera clocks the vehicle leaving

so if a traffic jam at the exit slowed this down and caused a 20 minute delay , it would still be allowed due to extenuating circumstances

in the ivor pecheque court case, the judge ruled that driving round looking for a space was not "parking" , so leaving slowly would be the same

ie:- you do not pay for "time on site" , you pay to park the car in a stationary mode in a parking bay (stopped) - they do not monitor this at all

at the moment you are splitting hairs for no apparent reason

it is their job to prove their case is valid , in law , this includes ensuring that their payment machines are accurate and also that the ANPR cameras are accurate too , and all for say 1 or 2 minutes only ?

a ticket was bought and paid for that covered the stationary parking time , so no intention to defraud PE or the WYE VALLEY CENTRE , but maybe a bit slow to leave !!!

llcomp2 · 6 June 2017 at 2:07PM

Thanks Redx.

Turns out the appeal has been rejected on grounds that their records confirm no parking was purchased on the date of event, despite there being payment methods available on the day in question.

I can confirm parking was paid for however there is no receipt for proof.

Next steps to appeal to POPLA, any advice would be appreciated and I shall continue to read the advice on the forums.

Wye Valley PCN

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