Teacher told child she could wet herself
Comments
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If you have a problem with my argument, present it. Don't question my qualifications to make the argument.
I don't have a PhD in history but I understand that there are lessons to be learnt. I didn't witness the second world war, but I understand the horrors.
See this is where you're making your mistake. Employment law does not permit an employer to tell you when to go to the toilet or not. But nor does it prohibit them from doing so (although there are groups trying to have that changed). Just like there is no law permitting random strangers on the internet to tell you when you can use the toilet, but nor are there any laws prohibiting it.
As for all the examples you have mentioned, you said yourself they'd be permitted to go to the toilet but might need to wait on someone coming to relieve them from their duties - thats entirely different to refusing to allow them to use the facilities at all during working hours (indeed, employers by law need to provide bathroom facilities - why would they need to provide them if the employer can dictate when they can or cannot use the toilet?)
Again, we're not property. Your employer only has a complaint if you are breaching your contract of employment. Employees on the other hand can complain if their employer breaches the contract of employment or about the contract of employment itself.
As for what basis....for example an employer using CCTV to monitor how many times employees go to the bathroom. Employees are still afforded a degree of privacy at work (because as I keep saying, your employer does not own you, they have merely hired your services to do a job). You can have CCTV trained on a till for example, but not on a staff member.
As for your last examples, having a cigarette or playing with your phone is not a basic need like going to the toilet is. A better comparison would be breaks for nourishment - which is another bodily need that arguably is easier to ignore than the need of going to the toilet. If the law recognises theres a right to a break for nourishment, why do you think it would say there isn't a right to use the toilets if needed? Keep in mind prisoner payouts for "slopping out". If having to pee in a bucket during certain hours breaches your rights and entitles you to compensation, I wouldn't quite be so confident that courts would rule theres nothing wrong with telling an employee "you cant pee between the hours of x & y".You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride0 -
I haven't read this thread but had quite enough on the previous one on the same subject, and contributed as I'm a teacher of all ages, including primary school.
It seems to me there's a very authoritarian streak coming out these days, including in teaching. Perhaps they'll ask the kids to put the request in writing and turn it down if the semicolons are not correctly formed.. There seems increasingly little empathy for other people ("I don't have a problem"), or understanding that others have different physical issues. As I said in the previous thread a competent teacher can deal with the issue without being rigidly authoritarian.
As for employers, no they can't dictate to you, but in exactly the same way they can ask you to try and not go at certain times, they cannot insist, otherwise they could have an actionable case against them. Any reasonable adult will do what they can on their timings, but ultimately necessity dictates.0 -
Now, I saw this post ^^^^ very briefly around 18:30 but it was posted by the OP - birtley90.louiseturner wrote: »Today coming in from lunchtime, I had a boy and 2 girls ask for the toilet, that really is not acceptable.
I saw it, thought 'that's odd, the OP appears to be cotradicting herself.
So I multi-quoted the OP's first post and this one (by birtley90) and before I could finish my post, the latest one had disappeared.
The OP had clearly realised she'd slipped up and posted under the wrong username and deleted the post.
So louiseturner - you are outed as being an AE of the OP (birtley90).
It's rather sad that you 'both' have to play silly games.
And if you must play silly games, at least remember which username you're supposed to be posting under.0 -
Now, I saw this post ^^^^ very briefly around 18:30 but it was posted by the OP - birtley90.
I saw it, thought 'that's odd, the OP appears to be cotradicting herself.
So I multi-quoted the OP's first post and this one (by birtley90) and before I could finish my post, the latest one had disappeared.
The OP had clearly realised she'd slipped up and posted under the wrong username and deleted the post.
So louiseturner - you are outed as being an AE of the OP (birtley90).
It's rather sad that you 'both' have to play silly games.
And if you must play silly games, at least remember which username you're supposed to be posting under.
That's a bit disturbing actually, creating fake usernames to discuss small children going to the toilet.
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unholyangel wrote: »Someone likened it to prison....except in prison, they don't tell you when you can pee and when you can't.
Can't see why some people want to dictate others bathroom habits so badly. We ended slavery quite some time ago so no person has that kind of authority over anyone else. Fair enough if it was happening in a pattern, always at the same time (ie possibly trying to avoid a certain subject) then perhaps have a word with them/their parents. But allowing them out of class for the loo will have less disruption to their education (and their classmates) than making them sit for 2 hours crossing their legs & squirming in their seat because they're bursting.
When I was at school, we needed the toilet we said to the teacher (didnt have to say why) and then we went to the toilet. It was the same in primary, secondary & further education.
I was raised to respect authority, but at the same time I was raised not to blindly do what I was told just because. Perhaps I'm biased but I don't see that as a bad thing. For one, you won't ever hear me claiming "its not my fault, I was just doing what I was told". Teaching kids to do whatever they're told no matter what just feeds into a lack of personal responsibility. If I had even tried using that excuse I would have been asked "and if they had asked you to jump off a cliff, would you have done it?"
Exactly. I went to school in the 1960s. Grammar School at 11. Think "Goodbye Mr Chips" without the boarding part.
I can't remember anyone being refused a toilet visit either at primary school, or at the grammar. Some teachers would tell you to "Hurry up!"
Some of them were very strict as well, and definitely not to be messed with.
Same at college. You just went out if you needed to.0 -
So when do school holidays start and end?
Do I have to wait six weeks for anymore toileting during class time threads?
Oh well, school uniform buying time, there's got to be at least 4 threads on plimsolls and fake uggs due0 -
So when do school holidays start and end?
Do I have to wait six weeks for anymore toileting during class time threads?
Oh well, school uniform buying time, there's got to be at least 4 threads on plimsolls and fake uggs due
And don't forget the blazers, ties, polo and sweat shirts!0 -
unholyangel wrote: »See this is where you're making your mistake. - i respectfully disagree. Employment law does not permit an employer to tell you when to go to the toilet or not. But nor does it prohibit them from doing so (although there are groups trying to have that changed). - employment law allows an employer to have a policy in place. Whilst the law doesn't specify every circumstance, it does allow the employer to have rules. Just like there is no law permitting random strangers on the internet to tell you when you can use the toilet, but nor are there any laws prohibiting it.
As for all the examples you have mentioned, you said yourself they'd be permitted to go to the toilet but might need to wait on someone coming to relieve them from their duties - thats entirely different to refusing to allow them to use the facilities at all during working hours (indeed, employers by law need to provide bathroom facilities - why would they need to provide them if the employer can dictate when they can or cannot use the toilet?) - I think the messages are getting mixed up. I'm saying the employer can tell you when you can use the facilities, when you take a break from work duties in effect. No different to a school. If it appears as though I was saying anything else, I wasn't. (also not all employees have ready access to toilet facilities, so no the law doesn't require an employer to provide that)
Again, we're not property. Your employer only has a complaint if you are breaching your contract of employment. Employees on the other hand can complain if their employer breaches the contract of employment or about the contract of employment itself. - Not really. It cant compel you to break the law obviously. But basically if you don't like it, you can be dismissed. (for no reason in the first two years) and subsequently by policy.
As for what basis....for example an employer using CCTV to monitor how many times employees go to the bathroom. Employees are still afforded a degree of privacy at work (because as I keep saying, your employer does not own you, they have merely hired your services to do a job). You can have CCTV trained on a till for example, but not on a staff member. - As far as I'm aware, as long as the employee knows that they are monitored, you can have CCTV pointed anywhere you like.
As for your last examples, having a cigarette or playing with your phone is not a basic need like going to the toilet is. A better comparison would be breaks for nourishment - which is another bodily need that arguably is easier to ignore than the need of going to the toilet. - the law says you are allowed a 20 minute break if you are working for six hours or longer. There is no mention of nourishment in this, though in reality that is what many people do in their break If the law recognises theres a right to a break for nourishment, why do you think it would say there isn't a right to use the toilets if needed? Keep in mind prisoner payouts for "slopping out". If having to pee in a bucket during certain hours breaches your rights and entitles you to compensation, I wouldn't quite be so confident that courts would rule theres nothing wrong with telling an employee "you cant pee between the hours of x & y".
Prisoners are compelled to be there, you are not.0 -
On what basis?silverwhistle wrote: »I haven't read this thread but had quite enough on the previous one on the same subject, and contributed as I'm a teacher of all ages, including primary school.
It seems to me there's a very authoritarian streak coming out these days, including in teaching. Perhaps they'll ask the kids to put the request in writing and turn it down if the semicolons are not correctly formed.. There seems increasingly little empathy for other people ("I don't have a problem"), or understanding that others have different physical issues. As I said in the previous thread a competent teacher can deal with the issue without being rigidly authoritarian.
As for employers, no they can't dictate to you, but in exactly the same way they can ask you to try and not go at certain times, they cannot insist, otherwise they could have an actionable case against them. Any reasonable adult will do what they can on their timings, but ultimately necessity dictates.0
This discussion has been closed.
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