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  • FIRST POST
    • Phildave
    • By Phildave 10th Nov 17, 12:58 PM
    • 12Posts
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    Phildave
    Final Notice of Removal
    • #1
    • 10th Nov 17, 12:58 PM
    Final Notice of Removal 10th Nov 17 at 12:58 PM
    I had a visit yesterday from an "Enforcement Agent" (from a debt collecting agency) who handed me a "Final Notice of Removal". When I pointed out that it was addressed to my son who no longer lived here he said that it was irrelevant as this was the address that had been given to him by the court (apparently my son was taken to court through non payment of council tax) and that unless the outstanding amount was paid by 6pm his colleagues would return and take away items up to the amount owed (obviously I did not intend to let them in). I then reiterated that my son had moved out almost a year ago, was not on our electoral role and so none of his possessions were here, I was then told that "unless I could prove that any item they wished to take belonged to me they were entitled to remove it".
    We arranged for the outstanding amount to be paid so it was halted but I just wonder was the position was as my son no longer lived at this address - surely they have no right to remove items unless I can prove they belong to me ?
Page 1
    • Candyapple
    • By Candyapple 10th Nov 17, 1:09 PM
    • 2,485 Posts
    • 1,854 Thanks
    Candyapple
    • #2
    • 10th Nov 17, 1:09 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Nov 17, 1:09 PM
    Were they court appointed bailiffs?

    Regardless, once you told them that the debtor no longer lives there, they should have gone back to their client and told them this so they can seek other avenues of getting their money back.

    Why did you pay? You just made it look like you were lying/covering for your son so their tactics obviously got the job done for them in the end.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Credit Cards, Loans, Credit Files & Ratings boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com
    • Phildave
    • By Phildave 10th Nov 17, 1:31 PM
    • 12 Posts
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    Phildave
    • #3
    • 10th Nov 17, 1:31 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Nov 17, 1:31 PM
    I didnt pay - my son (rightly) paid
    • Candyapple
    • By Candyapple 10th Nov 17, 1:38 PM
    • 2,485 Posts
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    Candyapple
    • #4
    • 10th Nov 17, 1:38 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Nov 17, 1:38 PM
    I didnt pay - my son (rightly) paid
    Originally posted by Phildave
    OK, it just read that you paid to make them go away.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Credit Cards, Loans, Credit Files & Ratings boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com
    • fwor
    • By fwor 10th Nov 17, 1:54 PM
    • 5,885 Posts
    • 3,927 Thanks
    fwor
    • #5
    • 10th Nov 17, 1:54 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Nov 17, 1:54 PM
    surely they have no right to remove items unless I can prove they belong to me ?
    Originally posted by Phildave
    I believe it depends on a number of factors, such as which court the bailiffs were appointed by - under some circumstances they can remove items unless you can prove they belong to you. But IIRC they have to have reason to believe that your son is resident at the address - and in this case it sounds like they did not.

    However... it was probably wise for your son to pay anyway, because every time they visit a property to collect they can add more fees, so when (if) they eventually caught up with him it would have cost him more money.
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 10th Nov 17, 2:27 PM
    • 12,471 Posts
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    sourcrates
    • #6
    • 10th Nov 17, 2:27 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Nov 17, 2:27 PM
    They cant remove anything if you don't let them in.

    They cannot force entry, they can only enter by peaceful means.

    Unfortunately the address on the writ overrules all else, makes no difference if he dosent live there, the writ has to be challenged legally, in court, your word is not sufficient, and yes, in order to prove ownership, any goods would need a receipt in your name, in order not to be seized.

    For anyone else in a similar situation, check out this site :

    https://mybailiffadvice.co.uk/free-bailiff-advice.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImO6e-Ju01wIVaLXtCh1KkwTXEAAYASAAEgJD7_D_BwE

    Three Golden rules when dealing with bailiffs :

    (1) Do NOT let them in.

    You are not obliged to let anyone into your home, so don't.

    (2) Do NOT be intimidated.

    You don't have to speak to bailiffs and do not respond to intimidation.

    (3) Do NOT sign anything.

    You simply mustn't sign anything a bailiff or bailiff company puts in front of you.
    Last edited by sourcrates; 10-11-2017 at 2:35 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • AndyPix
    • By AndyPix 10th Nov 17, 3:49 PM
    • 2,908 Posts
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    AndyPix
    • #7
    • 10th Nov 17, 3:49 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Nov 17, 3:49 PM
    ^^ Couple of things there ...


    Of course it makes a difference if the person named on the writ lives there as that is who they are charged with collecting the debt from.
    Think about that - what if a bailiff turned up at my door with a writ in the name of the previous occupant .. Does that mean they are entitled to take my stuff - of course it doesnt.


    And also your point 1 .. That is only true unless they are high court bailiffs (sherrifs) . They can use "necessary reasonable" force to gain entry.
    Running with scissors since 1978
    • Shakin Steve
    • By Shakin Steve 10th Nov 17, 4:01 PM
    • 1,062 Posts
    • 767 Thanks
    Shakin Steve
    • #8
    • 10th Nov 17, 4:01 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Nov 17, 4:01 PM
    High court bailiffs cannot use force of any kind to enter a residential property, they can only make ‘peaceful entry’. They can use force to enter commercial premises.
    Does no one watch ‘Can’t pay..........’?
    I came into this world with nothing and I've got most of it left.
    • AndyPix
    • By AndyPix 10th Nov 17, 4:04 PM
    • 2,908 Posts
    • 1,987 Thanks
    AndyPix
    • #9
    • 10th Nov 17, 4:04 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Nov 17, 4:04 PM
    ^^ I stand corrected


    It is once they have already been in that they can force entry again
    Running with scissors since 1978
    • Shakin Steve
    • By Shakin Steve 10th Nov 17, 4:09 PM
    • 1,062 Posts
    • 767 Thanks
    Shakin Steve
    Magistrates bailiffs can force entry to collect unpaid fines. It’s all a bit of a mine field and, I would imagine, a nightmare whether you know your rights or not.
    I came into this world with nothing and I've got most of it left.
    • nic_c
    • By nic_c 11th Nov 17, 9:51 AM
    • 1,089 Posts
    • 620 Thanks
    nic_c
    Unpaid council tax tends to be high court rather than magistrates court. Not paying council tax has more implications than not paying a catalogue or phone bill when it comes to enforcement orders
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 11th Nov 17, 10:52 AM
    • 12,471 Posts
    • 11,863 Thanks
    sourcrates
    ^^ Couple of things there ...


    Of course it makes a difference if the person named on the writ lives there as that is who they are charged with collecting the debt from.
    Think about that - what if a bailiff turned up at my door with a writ in the name of the previous occupant .. Does that mean they are entitled to take my stuff - of course it doesnt.

    Actually it does, unless you have proof of your identity.


    And also your point 1 .. That is only true unless they are high court bailiffs (sherrifs) . They can use "necessary reasonable" force to gain entry.
    Originally posted by AndyPix
    High court enforcement agents cannot force entry to residential premises except if they are chasing court fines or certain other debts.
    Last edited by sourcrates; 11-11-2017 at 12:58 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • cjmillsnun
    • By cjmillsnun 11th Nov 17, 11:20 AM
    • 312 Posts
    • 208 Thanks
    cjmillsnun
    This was for CT arrears according to the OP.
    • CIS
    • By CIS 11th Nov 17, 11:37 AM
    • 10,073 Posts
    • 5,754 Thanks
    CIS
    Unpaid council tax tends to be high court rather than magistrates court. Not paying council tax has more implications than not paying a catalogue or phone bill when it comes to enforcement orders
    Originally posted by nic_c
    The High Court (or the County Court) have no say in the collection of council tax arrears (except where an application is made for bankruptcy, charging order or judicial review). Council Tax, although a civil debt, is dealt with by a magistrates' court.

    The magistrates' court only has involvement as far as issuing the liability order and dealing with committal cases. Other than that (and the little bits dealt with by a High/County Court) the courts have no involvement and all powers are delegated to the local authority. The enforcement agents used are not court officers and have no connection with the any of the courts - they are private, certificated, companies and individuals contracted by the council under the relevant delegated powers.
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery as I'm now a self employed Council Tax advisor and consultant with my own Council Tax consultancy business. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 11th Nov 17, 3:52 PM
    • 1,596 Posts
    • 1,098 Thanks
    Tarambor
    Three Golden rules when dealing with bailiffs :

    (1) Do NOT let them in.

    You are not obliged to let anyone into your home, so don't.
    Originally posted by sourcrates
    If they have a High Court Writ granting them entry you are breaking the law by preventing them from entering.
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 11th Nov 17, 4:56 PM
    • 12,471 Posts
    • 11,863 Thanks
    sourcrates
    If they have a High Court Writ granting them entry you are breaking the law by preventing them from entering.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Bailiffs are only allowed to force their way into your home to collect unpaid criminal fines, Income Tax or Stamp Duty, and then only as a last resort.

    https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-bailiffs

    A high court writ authorizing entry would only be made under those circumstances, and never for personal debt related matters.
    Last edited by sourcrates; 11-11-2017 at 4:59 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 11th Nov 17, 5:21 PM
    • 11,539 Posts
    • 8,674 Thanks
    fatbelly
    CitizensAdvice have just refreshed their bailiff advice section here

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 11th Nov 17, 9:54 PM
    • 1,596 Posts
    • 1,098 Thanks
    Tarambor
    From that page:

    They aren't allowed to break down your door - they have to use 'reasonable force'. This means they'll have to come back with a locksmith who will unlock the door.

    So they're getting in whether you let them or not, they're just not allowed to break the door down but they can get someone to drill out the lock.
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 12th Nov 17, 3:39 AM
    • 11,539 Posts
    • 8,674 Thanks
    fatbelly
    From that page:

    They aren't allowed to break down your door - they have to use 'reasonable force'. This means they'll have to come back with a locksmith who will unlock the door.

    So they're getting in whether you let them or not, they're just not allowed to break the door down but they can get someone to drill out the lock.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    I posted that to try to stop the confusion!

    The paragraph above the one you quote says

    Check if the bailiff can force entry

    The bailiff could have the right to force entry to your home or business if they’re collecting:
    •unpaid magistrates court fines, for example if you were given a fine for not paying your TV licence
    •tax debts for HM Revenue and Customs, for example if you owe income tax
    and below the one you quote:

    If your client has been told bailiffs will come back with a locksmith

    The bailiff is only allowed to do this if the type of debt they're collecting gives them the right to force entry using 'reasonable force'.
    In this case, the op has been told it is a council tax debt. It is neither a criminal fine in the magistrates court, nor an HMRC tax debt.

    The bailiff has no right to force entry, as Sourcrates said. Neither is it High Court, as CIS correctly points out (not that that would change anything)
    • Herbie21
    • By Herbie21 14th Nov 17, 11:00 PM
    • 775 Posts
    • 983 Thanks
    Herbie21
    CitizensAdvice have just refreshed their bailiff advice section here

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/
    Originally posted by fatbelly
    I am really surprised that an organisation such as the Citizens Advice would be misleading the public into thinking that debtors who have children can in any way be considered 'vulnerable' !!!

    I am also surprised to read that a person over 65 would be considered 'vulnerable' because 'their age make it hard for them to deal with bailiffs'.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/how-bailiffs-should-treat-you/how-bailiffs-should-treat-you-if-youre-vulnerable/

    Check if bailiffs should treat you as vulnerable

    You can be vulnerable in lots of different situations, for example if:

    you’re disabled

    you’re seriously ill

    you have mental health problems

    you have children or are pregnant - especially if you’re a single parent

    your age makes it hard for you to deal with bailiffs - usually if you’re under 18 or over 65

    you don’t speak or read English well
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