Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Jun 15, 7:25 AM
    • 5,909Posts
    • 9,963Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Green, ethical, energy issues in the news.
    • #1
    • 9th Jun 15, 7:25 AM
    Green, ethical, energy issues in the news. 9th Jun 15 at 7:25 AM
    I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread for posting general news items that may be of interest.

    PV and the 'Solar in the news' thread attract a lot of interest, so here's a thread for all the other goings on.

    Mart.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Page 39
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 5th Oct 17, 10:31 AM
    • 2,720 Posts
    • 1,029 Thanks
    NigeWick
    The price is $5.5k plus 3 hrs labour.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    How much do they pay you for your old battery that they'll use in their home storage units?
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Oct 17, 11:06 AM
    • 5,909 Posts
    • 9,963 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    How much do they pay you for your old battery that they'll use in their home storage units?
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    $1,000 but that's already included.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • michaels
    • By michaels 5th Oct 17, 2:55 PM
    • 19,450 Posts
    • 88,950 Thanks
    michaels
    I think it is £5k in the UK (with the old battery pack taken as 'trade in'). Interesting is that when Renault upped the battery on the Zoe to 40kwh the old packs could be swapped for a new larger one, I think it is about 10k but the story is confused by the Renault battery rental model.
    Cool heads and compromise
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Oct 17, 10:37 AM
    • 5,909 Posts
    • 9,963 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    UK’s new Faraday Institution to invest £65m in energy storage research

    As part of the country’s £246 million ($321 million) battery investment strategy, the U.K. government’s business and energy secretary Greg Clark has this week announced the launch of the Faraday Institution, which will oversee £65 million in investment into energy storage research over the next four years.

    The Faraday Institution will be based in Oxfordshire at the Harwell Science and Innovation Campus – the home of a handful of national research facilities including ISIS Neutron and Muon Facility, Diamond Light Source and the Central Laser Facility.
    Recently, British renewable energy developer Anesco has commissioned the country’s first large-scale, subsidy-free solar farm by collocating a 10 MW PV plant with a 6 MW battery. Such installations – combining solar+storage either from the get-go or as a refit program – would appear to hold the key to expanding the country’s storage network and also supporting the ongoing development of the large-scale solar sector.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 6th Oct 17, 12:33 PM
    • 2,720 Posts
    • 1,029 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Individual companies are spending £Billions and HMGov Plc thinks a few hundred million will make us "market leaders"?
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Oct 17, 3:58 PM
    • 3,730 Posts
    • 4,595 Thanks
    zeupater
    Individual companies are spending £Billions and HMGov Plc thinks a few hundred million will make us "market leaders"?
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    Hi

    Normal government thinking ... If you haven't got a clue, there'll always be a group of academics sniffing around & willing to spend plenty of public money on their coffee & doughnuts for a decade or two .. a case of being seen to be doing something, even if you don't know what that something is! ...

    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 7th Oct 17, 11:59 AM
    • 2,720 Posts
    • 1,029 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Normal government thinking ... If you haven't got a clue, there'll always be a group of academics sniffing around & willing to spend plenty of public money on their coffee & doughnuts for a decade or two .. a case of being seen to be doing something, even if you don't know what that something is! ...
    Originally posted by zeupater
    I hate it when you're right.....
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Oct 17, 4:33 PM
    • 5,909 Posts
    • 9,963 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    The UK Energy Research Centre (ERC) has urged Dieter Helm’s cost of energy review to consider the potential for technology-neutral auctions for the UK market.
    It's only a recommendation, which our government will probably ignore, but perhaps a step towards opening up the CfD market to PV and on-shore wind again:-

    Technology neutral auctions must be considered in cost of energy review, urges ERC

    It stressed there was now “significant evidence” that government interventions through feed-in tariffs, auctions and other mandates had been a key driver for reductions in the cost of renewables, particularly in solar PV, wind and battery storage, which can then benefit consumers through cheaper, cleaner electricity.

    It also drew from recent auctions in Mexico, Germany and the Netherlands which have demonstrably driven down the cost of renewables.

    This, the centre said, had led to the conclusion that there was a strong case for including as many low carbon technologies as possible into a single competitive auction over time. Such a policy would see a CFD-styled auction with no specific ‘pots’, allowing all technologies to compete against each other for contracts.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Oct 17, 4:55 PM
    • 5,909 Posts
    • 9,963 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Might not interest anyone, but recently wasting my time, as I do, arguing with some folk on the Guardian.

    They were merrily pointing out that the CO2 emissions from a nuclear powerstation are lower (per MWh) than those from wind or PV.

    Fair enough, though the posters didn't want to answer questions raised by another about the CO2 comparison when all mining, disposal etc was also taken into account.


    Regardless, I thought it would be fun to point out that we shouldn't really be comparing the relative CO2 emissions of what are all, low carbon technologies, at the end of the day, but the amount of FF CO2 displaced by them, and for that we needed to compare costs too, and perhaps more importantly subsidies as these are the amounts needed (on top) to encourage the building / rollout of RE generation.

    So I crunched the numbers, and totally shocked myself at the result, which was way beyond 'better' which is what I expected.

    So, here's the calculation -

    1. We need to compare the amount of subsidy for Hinkley Point C, v's the latest off-shore wind contracts. So that means taking the CfD strike prices and subtracting the NAO's estimate of average wholesale price in 2025-30 (around £50/MWh). Prices based on 2017 costs.

    HPC is £97/MWh - £50/MWh = £47/MWh
    Off-shore wind is £60/MWh - £50/MWh = £10/MWh

    2. We have to account for the length of the subsidy periods, which are 15yrs for off-shore wind and 35yrs for nuclear.

    I've assumed that after 20-25yrs, when the off-shore wind farms close, that their replacements will not need further subsidies.

    3. We have to account for capacity factor, since the payments are made on MWhs of generation, not the capacity deployed.

    So HPC has a capacity of 3.2GW and a capacity factor of 92%.
    Off-shore wind should reach a capacity factor of 50% with the 'monster' turbines that are to be deployed.

    If you've stuck with all this so far, here comes the calaculation

    3.2GW x (0.92cf / 0.50cf) x (35yrs / 15yrs) x (£47/£10) = 64.57GW

    That's a hell of a lot of wind capacity.

    And whilst this is only a thought exercise, we can go further and compare annual generation, with

    HPC (at 92%) generating 25.79TWh's pa
    64.57GW of off-shore wind generating 282.81TWh's

    The UK currently uses about 350TWh's pa.

    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 10th Oct 17, 5:48 PM
    • 1,599 Posts
    • 2,105 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    You could also include in your calculation the amount of RE that could (will) come onstream and be producing in the [indeterminate] time it will take to get HPC up and running.

    I presume you were argueing with Raykalon again: he never lets slip even the slightest concession that RE might be a good thing,.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 11th Oct 17, 12:14 PM
    • 2,720 Posts
    • 1,029 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Might not interest anyone, but recently wasting my time, as I do, arguing with some folk on the Guardian.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I got a Nectar points voucher from Sainsbugs regarding the Guardian. Bought it this morning to get the points which more than paid for the paper. First and last time I'll be reading that particular news organ. Blimey, I could even do their quick crossword and sudoku!

    In future I'll stick with the ladies and gentlemen from The Times on Saturdays.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Oct 17, 8:17 AM
    • 5,909 Posts
    • 9,963 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I think this is important?

    I've often mentioned how the World's efforts to bring down the cost of PV has benefited us by giving India an alternative to 'cheap' coal. But of course PV is not a singular solution.

    So it's nice to see that their wind auction prices are now also coming in at (or below) the cost of coal, as the combination of both, whether on major grids, or micro-grids, gives a much more reliable package of generation, especially if storage is also included.

    India’s Wind Energy Tariff Falls To Record Low In Latest Tender

    [BTW the Indian price of R2.65/kWh works out at about $40/MWh.]
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 12th Oct 17, 12:35 PM
    • 3,730 Posts
    • 4,595 Thanks
    zeupater
    I think this is important?

    I've often mentioned how the World's efforts to bring down the cost of PV has benefited us by giving India an alternative to 'cheap' coal. But of course PV is not a singular solution.

    So it's nice to see that their wind auction prices are now also coming in at (or below) the cost of coal, as the combination of both, whether on major grids, or micro-grids, gives a much more reliable package of generation, especially if storage is also included.

    India’s Wind Energy Tariff Falls To Record Low In Latest Tender

    [BTW the Indian price of R2.65/kWh works out at about $40/MWh.]
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Hi

    The issue here is the impact on the cost to improve energy provision to outlying areas is huge in developing countries.

    Without the need to massively reinforce grid infrastructure to supply energy from a centralised generation model, far more funding can be focussed on local generation which not only accelerates energy project delivery timescales, but also provides a massive boost to the living standards of so many 'rural poor'.

    A big thumbs up to distributed generation & interlinked micro-grids ..
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Oct 17, 1:48 PM
    • 5,909 Posts
    • 9,963 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Interesting to hear of a generation site with such a varied mix of generation and now storage.

    Tesla battery to offer solar energy park ‘a lot more opportunity’ in the future

    The 4MW Tesla battery will sit within a cluster of integrated clean technologies at Cenin Renewables’ Parc Stormy site in Bridgend, which hosts a 735kW solar installation, a low carbon cement facility, an anaerobic digestion plant and a wind turbine.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 16th Oct 17, 8:08 AM
    • 5,909 Posts
    • 9,963 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    An item from the weekly carbon commentary I receive. It's about PV, but I've posted it here as I assume wind could also be part of the mix, if 'we' expand the idea:-

    7, Microgrids. Sonnen, the European leader in small scale battery storage, said it would be putting batteries in all 3,000 homes in a new township in Arizona. The town will be able to ‘island’ itself from the public grid. Advanced controls will enable all the batteries and the PV on all roofs to operate as a virtual power plant with storage equivalent to 2 hours peak output of the PV system. Homeowners will trade power with each other. Sonnen threw out a challenge to its better known competitor. ‘This is the city of the future, a place where residents produce, store and share their energy. The fact that we were able to realise this project in Tesla’s home market territory demonstrates how we are surpassing Tesla when it comes to technology in America’s energy sector’. I think I might have used more cautious language when challenging Mr Musk.
    also, it's nice to see 'healthy' competition at work.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 16th Oct 17, 8:15 AM
    • 5,909 Posts
    • 9,963 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Some news on P2G (power to gas) storage. teh idea here is to take excess leccy generation and store it in a very compact form such as hydrogen or methane. Typically it's been an expensive technology as the efficiency is low, but if improved, would be invaluable.

    Biomethanation Reactor System Launched in U.S. for Power-to-Gas Testing

    SoCalGas Power-to-Gas Project Selected by U.S. Department of Energy’s National Renewable Energy Laboratory to Receive Funding
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 16th Oct 17, 1:18 PM
    • 5,909 Posts
    • 9,963 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    You can teach old dogs new tricks.

    This is what America's eco city of the future looks like

    Ross is the mayor of Georgetown, population 65,000, and he has become a minor celebrity in environmental circles as a result of a pioneering decision in 2015 to get all the city’s electricity from renewable sources.

    Georgetown’s location in oil-and-gas-centric Texas and Ross’s politics add to the strangeness of the tale. The mayor is a staunch Republican at a time when a Republican president – and his Environmental Protection Agency administrator – reject the scientific consensus on climate change and are trying to revive the declining coal industry.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 16th Oct 17, 4:20 PM
    • 1,469 Posts
    • 1,334 Thanks
    GreatApe
    Some news on P2G (power to gas) storage. teh idea here is to take excess leccy generation and store it in a very compact form such as hydrogen or methane. Typically it's been an expensive technology as the efficiency is low, but if improved, would be invaluable.

    Biomethanation Reactor System Launched in U.S. for Power-to-Gas Testing

    SoCalGas Power-to-Gas Project Selected by U.S. Department of Energy’s National Renewable Energy Laboratory to Receive Funding
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    Electricity is a higher grade fuel you dont turn electricity into methane a lower grade fuel that is wasteful and stupid. You especially dont do it only when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining. Chemical complexes are large capital expensive projects that typically run 24/7 non stop.
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 16th Oct 17, 4:53 PM
    • 1,469 Posts
    • 1,334 Thanks
    GreatApe
    I think this is important?

    I've often mentioned how the World's efforts to bring down the cost of PV has benefited us by giving India an alternative to 'cheap' coal. But of course PV is not a singular solution.

    So it's nice to see that their wind auction prices are now also coming in at (or below) the cost of coal, as the combination of both, whether on major grids, or micro-grids, gives a much more reliable package of generation, especially if storage is also included.

    India’s Wind Energy Tariff Falls To Record Low In Latest Tender

    [BTW the Indian price of R2.65/kWh works out at about $40/MWh.]
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    It is not about cheap coal, It is about, it works coal power stations

    There is no major country in the world that does not have dispatchable coal or gas or mostly both as part of their grid. (excluding the few small examples of countries with massive hydropower)

    India is at 1400 TWh annual electricity consumption that is what China was at in 2001
    Fast forward to 2016 ad China used 6150 TWh that means if India follows the same economic development as china did it will need to build out the infrastructure to produce 4750 TWh of additional electricity output

    If you feel India is going to supply that 4750 TWh with solar and wind you are living on the moon!

    If anything India is going to have a hard time meeting demand and has much less hydro-power potential. It will either have lower economic growth and develop more slowly or its going to need a huge amount of fossil fuel power to go from 1400 TWh annual eletricity use to 6150 TWh annual and it wont stop there they will go towards 10,000 TWh annual by 2050

    They are going to go fossil fuel and maybe later displace it.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 16th Oct 17, 5:41 PM
    • 5,909 Posts
    • 9,963 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Electricity is a higher grade fuel you dont turn electricity into methane a lower grade fuel that is wasteful and stupid. You especially dont do it only when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining. Chemical complexes are large capital expensive projects that typically run 24/7 non stop.
    Originally posted by GreatApe
    Wrong. We are talking about excess renewable leccy, that needs storing. Elsewhere you are claiming that large scale battery storage doesn't exist, yet here you are arguing against alternative forms of storage.

    Hydrogen can be used with fuel cells to produce leccy on demand, hence the storage medium, and bio-methane can be burnt at a CCGT plant again when demand is high and RE supply is low. Co-locating a bio-methan CCGT plant with a LAES storage site can lift the efficiency of the LAES storage to over 80%, in fact it can go over 100% (which may seem odd at first).

    These forms of storage (plus CAES) are neither wasteful nor stupid, assuming you've read up on them.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,569Posts Today

7,596Users online

Martin's Twitter