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'Shame on Nationwide – no, I won't give you my security details' blog discussion
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# 21
Lakeuk
Old 06-12-2012, 9:04 PM
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Had this a few years ago from my bank, at the time I was concerned there was an issue with my account (ie fraud, messup on a purchase), took ages getting through the security, I'm rubbish at remembering the nth letter of the answer to the 101th question but that's the point of security, it's not supposed to be easy.

I was fuming when it turned out the purpose of the call was to market another of the accounts with a monthly fee

Next year they called again, this time I was on the ball and responded "If it's a marketing call then I'm not interested, if it's important/urgent about my account then send a secure message I can read and I'll read the call centre back"

Lesson learn't
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# 22
davidsuffolk
Old 06-12-2012, 9:06 PM
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Calling back is clearly a good idea except most of them now have an 0845 or 0870 only number so it costs you to check!

On another matter, I recently bought an IPad and my phone literally rang within 60seconds with my CC company ringing to check it was kosher so well done them.

Last edited by davidsuffolk; 06-12-2012 at 9:11 PM.
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# 23
andyg9053
Old 06-12-2012, 9:12 PM
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first direct did it to me the other week, I stupidly answered first security question but then i woke up asked them for my dob, they said they cant do that, but I could ring them back, I did this and it was genuine.
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# 24
irrelevant
Old 07-12-2012, 8:00 PM
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I had the same thing from HSBC a couple of years ago. Call came in on a withheld number, and initially they wouldn't even say who they were! Very aggressive and almost rude. "It's about your bank account." "Well I use several banks, which one are you?" Eventually they said they were HSBC, but refused to give any more information, and so I told them flat out that I do not give personal details to unsolicited calls, particularly from withheld numbers. As I was "refusing to go through security" they gave up and hung up.

I called back HSBC on their normal numbers, and they did confirm it was a genuine call, but couldn't put me through to the right people as that department "didn't accept incoming calls"! As it happened, the person I was speaking to, who was friendly and polite and eager to help, sorted out the issue for me herself. (It was basically over an account I hadn't used for some considerable time that had somehow drifted a couple of quid overdrawn - we cleared that and closed it!)

(Edit)
I got an automated call a couple of weeks back from Halifax credit card fraud prevention - their security was to offer several options for each question, and I was to pick one. That sort of proved they knew the information, without giving away what it was.

Last edited by irrelevant; 07-12-2012 at 8:03 PM.
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# 25
kazd
Old 07-12-2012, 8:19 PM
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So here is the scenario, phone rings.

"Hello can I speak to Mr Peter Smith"

"Peter Smith speaking"

"Oh good afternoon Mr Smith, I am calling from Nationwide Building Society with regard to the arrears on your mortgage, your direct debit has now failed two months in a row and your credit file has been affected. In addition you have exceeded your overdraft limit and charges have been applied"

"Oh sorry can I stop you, I was only joking, I am not Mr Smith, he is away from his desk at the moment"

How happy would you be that all this information had been given out without any security checks being carried out.

Data protection is there to protect both you and the bank/building society.
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# 26
jamesd
Old 07-12-2012, 8:44 PM
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"That's OK, I'm not really calling from his building society either, I'm just trying to get him into trouble at work since he has an accounting job and isn't allowed to have debt problems."

If it's genuine, the financial institution security people already know that it is insecure for their customers to provide information over the phone without the institution first authenticating itself. Up to them to provide a secure way to do this.
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# 27
Iphigenia
Old 07-12-2012, 9:06 PM
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I am an executor for an estate where the deceased had a number of accounts with Santander. As a consequence I have had to open an account with Santander to process all the cheques payable to the estate. I recently paid the beneficiaries cheques from the account. I then received a number of automated calls. I ignored them as I do not respond to these kind of calls assuming they were spam calls. It turns out these were calls from Santander to verify that I had issued the cheques. Everyone knows scams are done by automated calls, how am I supposed to know these are legitimate calls?
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# 28
kazd
Old 07-12-2012, 9:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesd View Post
"That's OK, I'm not really calling from his building society either, I'm just trying to get him into trouble at work since he has an accounting job and isn't allowed to have debt problems."

If it's genuine, the financial institution security people already know that it is insecure for their customers to provide information over the phone without the institution first authenticating itself. Up to them to provide a secure way to do this.
I worked in the lending control dept of Nationwide for three years, we regularly called customers up who were in arrears but before we could divulge the reason for the call we had to take them through security for data protection. I always advised that I was calling from Nationwide but not necessarily the department until we were through security. The problem is when people are refusing to go through security they could be shooting themselves in the foot.

In many cases I was able to help customers, get them back on a payment plan and minimize the affect on their credit file. Customers would regularly tell me that they had paid their 'February mortgage payment' on the 8th March, they could not understand that because they had paid late they had affected their credit file and that can have knock on affects. I believe you should have to take a test before you are allowed to borrow money, people have no idea how they can wreck their lives by irresponsible borrowing. It can stop you getting a job as more and more people have their credit files checked before getting a job. It can mean they can't get a mortgage. They think in the case of divorce as long as they pay their half of the mortgage they are okay but that is not the case.

I appreciate that banks and building societies ringing up to try and flog a product are a pain in the butt. But stop for one minute sometimes they have a genuine reason for contacting you, sometimes that is the only way they can contact you and they can help you sort out your finances.
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# 29
Macca83
Old 07-12-2012, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iphigenia View Post
I am an executor for an estate where the deceased had a number of accounts with Santander. As a consequence I have had to open an account with Santander to process all the cheques payable to the estate. I recently paid the beneficiaries cheques from the account. I then received a number of automated calls. I ignored them as I do not respond to these kind of calls assuming they were spam calls. It turns out these were calls from Santander to verify that I had issued the cheques. Everyone knows scams are done by automated calls, how am I supposed to know these are legitimate calls?
did you contact santander to find out why you were receiving automated calls?
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# 30
jamesd
Old 08-12-2012, 1:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazd View Post
I always advised that I was calling from Nationwide but not necessarily the department until we were through security. ... In many cases I was able to help customers, get them back on a payment plan and minimize the affect on their credit file.
I wouldn't suggest not contacting, just not divulging information to a caller who hasn't authenticated themselves. The solution is easy enough: leave a note on the customer record saying who the call should be forwarded to, then invite the customer to call back on the number published on the web site. After the customer has made contact you can then suggest that you call them back and they will recognise your voice and be willing to go through security a second time during that callback.
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# 31
jamesd
Old 08-12-2012, 1:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iphigenia View Post
Everyone knows scams are done by automated calls, how am I supposed to know these are legitimate calls?
You can't. The best you can do is contact the institution on one of its published numbers. If the call is genuine, they will be able to handle the matter that way.
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# 32
kazd
Old 08-12-2012, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesd View Post
I wouldn't suggest not contacting, just not divulging information to a caller who hasn't authenticated themselves. The solution is easy enough: leave a note on the customer record saying who the call should be forwarded to, then invite the customer to call back on the number published on the web site. After the customer has made contact you can then suggest that you call them back and they will recognise your voice and be willing to go through security a second time during that callback.
I wish it was that easy, that was one of my biggest bug bears. To my mind there should be one central system used for verifying people and the CA should be able to leave a note to say which dept was trying to contact them. The reality is that each department uses a different computer system, they also used automated calls to,alert the customer that NBS were trying to get hold of them but I believe the automated number should direct them to the correct dept.

If people would just realise how important it is to keep track of your money and contact the relevant people in case of difficulty things would be a lot easier. Unfortunately many people just choose to bury their heads in the sand and that isn't the answer.
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# 33
LardyCake
Old 08-12-2012, 1:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazd View Post
... If people would just realise how important it is to keep track of your money and contact the relevant people in case of difficulty things would be a lot easier. Unfortunately many people just choose to bury their heads in the sand and that isn't the answer.
The issue is about bad security practice by financial institutions (not just Nationwide) that encourages people to give out their security details to unidentified callers who may well be scammers.

It is nothing to do with getting into debt, or burying heads in sand. These unsolicited calls asking for security details are not made exclusively to people in debt or financial difficulty.
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# 34
kazd
Old 08-12-2012, 3:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LardyCake View Post
The issue is about bad security practice by financial institutions (not just Nationwide) that encourages people to give out their security details to unidentified callers who may well be scammers.

It is nothing to do with getting into debt, or burying heads in sand. These unsolicited calls asking for security details are not made exclusively to people in debt or financial difficulty.
I realise that and I did mention it earlier. But, the fact remains that on occasion the banks do have reason to call you but need to verify they are speaking to the correct person first. I really don't think there is an easy answer.
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# 35
jamesd
Old 08-12-2012, 4:24 PM
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The banks need to properly consider the security and risk implications of what their conduct trains customers to do. Training customers to give out personal security-related information to unauthenticated callers is something that senior management responsible for policy setting should realise is weakening the institution's case if phone contact is ever used by a fraudster to create a loss, because the customer would just be acting as the bank has trained them to act.

Agree with you about head in the sand aspects but I've been in some financial difficulties in the past and sometimes that's what it takes to deal with day to day life for a while, though I've not reached the point where it did excessive harm, fortunately.
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# 36
Goldiegirl
Old 08-12-2012, 4:42 PM
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I've worked in banks and building societies all my life, and we receive regular training in data protection issues.

Selling and marketing is not my thing and I've always worked in admin, so I've often had to call customers to speak about matters that have arisen on their account.

Until I'm sure I've got the right person, by getting correct answers to security questions, I am very discrete about what I say. I don't want to give information to people that aren't entitled to that information

If people aren't happy to answer security questions, it's really no skin off my nose, I just tell them they can call me back if they want to, at our central contact number, so they can be sure their are speaking to the bank, and then answer the security questions. At that point, most of them decide they are happy to answer the security questions, as let's face it, it's a right pain to call any large institution these days, and as they have me on the phone they decide they'd rather find out what I want. Once I know I've got the right person, I can speak about their account and most are happy that I've called as I've been able to help them.
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# 37
LardyCake
Old 08-12-2012, 6:12 PM
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No one has suggested financial institutions should be give out personal information to someone they cannot identify. Equally the customer should not be giving out their security information to a caller they cannot identify. It may be your bank, it may be someone trying to scam your security details.

There are ways around the problem. I suggest one in post #16: allowing customers to set-up a "reverse password".

I suspect the problem is that banks etc would prefer to carry on "Training customers to give out personal security-related information to unauthenticated callers" (thanks jamesd) than spend money on setting up properly secure systems.
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# 38
Atidi
Old 08-12-2012, 9:45 PM
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Quote:
4.There is no alternative method of contact. I then asked: "Do you have an alternative method of contacting me, either via email or secure message through your online banking so I can see what this is about?" Her reply: "No, I can’t do that either – we only ever call, we do not have any other system." (This bit was confirmed later.)
A quick google (and I mean quick, first search and first link I clicked on) gave me this page

http://www.nationwide.co.uk/contact_...us/default.htm

Now with that information, it shouldn't be too difficult to establish the authenticity or otherwise of the call (but you may have to wait until Monday morning now)

I've had a number of calls from people who claim to be from XYZ and want me to give out security information. I never do and simply say if they cannot identify themselves to my satisfaction, then I will call them back ... on a number I will find from their website! (or otherwise already known to me) They can give me further contact details from their (e.g. an extension number to help if they like)

If I doo need to call themn back, I invariably discover the call either
a) does not even originate from the company claimed
or
b) is an unsolicited marketing call (at which point I often ask to start a formal complaint as I rarely give permission for this type of activity and and registered with the TPS/CTPS)

In the majority of cases, the person I speak to cannot actually help me any further, and I never seem to get called back, so it really couldn't have been very important in the first place.

But never, ever disclose your personal security details by telephone to someone/anyone that calls you without them being able to first confirm to you they are who they say they are. If it's genuine, I'm sure most banks (or other services) would fully understand this.
(A bit like checking a waterboard official really is from the water board when he comes knocking at your door to, for example, 'test the quality of the water' ... any genuine official would be happy to wait outside your closed door whilst you check out their authenticity by checking with their claimed employer ... e.g. by telephoning them on a number you know to be genuine, and never one they may ask you to call instead)

Last edited by Atidi; 08-12-2012 at 10:10 PM.
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# 39
Atidi
Old 08-12-2012, 10:35 PM
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I just found this link.

It actually comes from a suggested site on the Nationwide website concerning protecting your security.

http://www.banksafeonline.org.uk/com...s/latest-scams

There appears to be a name for this type of latest scam
Vishing (as opposed to phishing)

Quote:
Fraudsters cold-call unsuspecting individuals and dupe them into revealing their online or telephone banking security details, by claiming to be from the security or fraud department (of either a bank, card company or another service provider) and saying that their records have flagged up a fraudulent transaction on the victim’s account or that the victim is due a refund. By seeming to offer assistance, the caller hopes to gain their victim’s trust. The fraudster, who may already have some details about the person they are phoning - such as their address - is really trying to find out extra security details, such as passwords. The fraudster may claim that the amount of the fraudulent purchase can be credited back if the individual divulges these details.
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# 40
Atidi
Old 08-12-2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
The truth is, by the end, I was pretty sure this was Nationwide. She made all the right noises (though I may be fooling myself that I’m savvy enough to tell the difference) and indeed, when I called through using the customer service number, the person confirmed it was a genuine call.
So was it just a marketing call, or was there something they needed to discuss urgently with you about the way your account was being operated (remember they were calling you at work!)

And what did they advise when you no doubt expressed the security issues involved in the way they operate?

Surely it can't be their policy to operate in such a risky manner?

If it is claimed to be their policy, then remember that as an account holder, you are probably a member so can attend the AGM (usually held in the middle of the year). Perhaps an ideal opportunity to ask a probing question (they usually have a good Q&A session) as to their security protocols?

Last edited by Atidi; 08-12-2012 at 10:54 PM.
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