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  • FIRST POST
    AdvicePlease
    Yet another IPA query
    • #1
    • 4th Dec 12, 9:06 PM
    Yet another IPA query 4th Dec 12 at 9:06 PM
    I was made BR in May and got an IPA which didnt start until September. I have expenditure for my pets which is not counted as essential by the OR, but since my BR I have been still covering their costs by saving money in other areas.

    Last month my car needed significant repairs which I simply couldnt afford, so my dad gave me some money to cover the repairs. I am aware that under the terms of my BR I should declare this to the OR, but I have a query - legally my dad owns my pets, so can the money he has given me be offset against their expenditure which I have been covering myself?
Page 1
  • sniggings
    • #2
    • 4th Dec 12, 10:02 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Dec 12, 10:02 PM
    your dad can give you gifts of money, you do not have to inform your OR.

  • AdvicePlease
    • #3
    • 4th Dec 12, 10:16 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Dec 12, 10:16 PM
    Really? Seriously? OMG you have made my YEAR let alone made my day

    I was convinced that the money would be counted as a windfall, or an increase to my income and expenditure that I had to report, or something like that!

    A HUGE thank you, how I wish I had asked before instead of worrying myself sick about it
  • sniggings
    • #4
    • 4th Dec 12, 10:23 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Dec 12, 10:23 PM
    yes really

    Just to check, when you say pet expenses were not accepted, do you mean all pet expenses or only some, as pet expenses are a reasonable expense, granted maybe ribbons for the dogs fringe would be pushing it

  • AdvicePlease
    • #5
    • 4th Dec 12, 10:42 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Dec 12, 10:42 PM
    The OR would allow costs for basic dog food - I am not prepared to feed the brand they suggested as it contains known carcinogens and has been proven to be medically harmful to dogs

    ETA - I do realise that basic costs are all that are essential of course
  • PippaGirl
    • #6
    • 5th Dec 12, 4:10 AM
    • #6
    • 5th Dec 12, 4:10 AM
    Also f you have unsual expenses such as repairs to a car you can request a suspension on your IPA for a month or two, then your IPA restarts and the suspended months get added on at the end instead.
    "Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them." Dalai Lama
  • sniggings
    • #7
    • 5th Dec 12, 2:19 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Dec 12, 2:19 PM
    Also f you have unsual expenses such as repairs to a car you can request a suspension on your IPA for a month or two, then your IPA restarts and the suspended months get added on at the end instead.
    Originally posted by PippaGirl
    any 0 or lowered payments on an IPA count towards the 3 years, they do not get added on at the end, if the IPA was set for 3 years.

    If the IPA is set for less than 3 years, which is not the norm, then they can be added on but still can not go over 3 years.

  • PippaGirl
    • #8
    • 5th Dec 12, 5:13 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Dec 12, 5:13 PM
    any 0 or lowered payments on an IPA count towards the 3 years, they do not get added on at the end, if the IPA was set for 3 years.

    If the IPA is set for less than 3 years, which is not the norm, then they can be added on but still can not go over 3 years.
    Originally posted by sniggings
    I've been led to believe by many threads on here that if you have some financial need some as car repairs, washing machine breaking and needing a new one etc. that the IPA is put in suspension for a month or two or whatever and these months are then added on at the end so there are still 36 payments. I hadn't read anything to suggest when there is a financial need like this that the IPA is lowered or made 0 for any months instead. That's the first I have heard of this?
    "Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them." Dalai Lama
  • tigerfeet2006
    • #9
    • 5th Dec 12, 5:36 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Dec 12, 5:36 PM
    You are indeed correct Pippa.
    BSCno.87
    The only stupid question is an unasked one
    I now live in a country that is 4 hours ahead of the UK so you may now find I post at weird times
    [/COLOR][/CENTER]
  • sniggings
    I've been led to believe by many threads on here that if you have some financial need some as car repairs, washing machine breaking and needing a new one etc. that the IPA is put in suspension for a month or two or whatever and these months are then added on at the end so there are still 36 payments. I hadn't read anything to suggest when there is a financial need like this that the IPA is lowered or made 0 for any months instead. That's the first I have heard of this?
    Originally posted by PippaGirl
    the rule is an IPA can not be longer than 3 years, not the number of payments have to be 36.

    from the insolvency service

    An IPA comes into force when it has been signed by both the bankrupt and official receiver or trustee [note 7](see paragraph 31.7.9). Variation of the agreement can be made after discharge (see Part 7) by written agreement between the relevant parties, or by the court on the application of the official receiver, the trustee or the bankrupt [note 10]. The period of the agreement can be extended or reduced on variation, but cannot be extended beyond a period of three years, beginning with the date on which the agreement comes into force [note 5].

  • sniggings
    You are indeed correct Pippa.
    Originally posted by tigerfeet2006
    sorry but no she isn't.

  • debtinfo
    Paying the required payments at a later date is not the same as extending the agreement passed 3 years as the payments were due based on the assesment within the 3 year period

    To give you a clearer example pretend you were in the last month of the 3 years and you simply didnt pay that month and you reached the end of the 3 years, are you really saying sniggings that moonbeever could not get that money of you because the 3 years is up, or as i am saying the payment was due within the 3 years so falls within the agreement and can therefore be chased and made to pay after the 3 years. Think about it carefully.
    Hi, im Debtinfo, i am an ex insolvency examiner and over the years have personally dealt with thousands of bankruptcy cases.
    Please note that any views i put forth are not those of my former employer The Insolvency Service and do not constitute professional advice, you should always seek professional advice before entering insolvency proceedings.
  • sniggings
    Paying the required payments at a later date is not the same as extending the agreement passed 3 years as the payments were due based on the assesment within the 3 year period

    To give you a clearer example pretend you were in the last month of the 3 years and you simply didnt pay that month and you reached the end of the 3 years, are you really saying sniggings that moonbeever could not get that money of you because the 3 years is up, or as i am saying the payment was due within the 3 years so falls within the agreement and can therefore be chased and made to pay after the 3 years. Think about it carefully.
    Originally posted by debtinfo
    very clear what I'm saying, you pay an IPA from the date it comes into force, which is when those involved sign the form, the IPA will only last for a total of 3 years, any excessive income that is covered by the IPA will be due.

    Your "example" is childish, you know it and anyone reading this knows it, not sure how your "example" is relevant to this thread but I will answer it so you can not accuse me of not answering.

    If the payment is not paid but it is covered by the 3 years then of course it is still owed... debtinfo I thought you were more professional than to side track a thread in this way.
    Last edited by sniggings; 05-12-2012 at 6:59 PM.

  • PippaGirl
    debtinfo hasn't side tracked anything! The conversation on this was already going. So it is as I said, except the IPA isn't officially suspended, instead you can miss payments for one or two months or however long when you need the finances to pay for unexpected needs and then you can pay the missed payments after the IPA has ended. So, it's as it as I said but not called a suspension.
    "Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them." Dalai Lama
  • debtinfo
    so you agree that if an amount is due but cant be paid at that time then it could be added on to the end of the IPA to catch up, yes? The exemple i used is simply to make it clearer because it is easier to see how a missed payment at the end rolls over the 3 year mark. The same principle applies to wherever the missed payment is during the IPA period. are we agreed on that?

    conversely if your expenses have genuinely changed that it is a lesser amount that is the due not the original amount and so it does not have to be made up at the end. (ie a lower amount is owed rather than an amount has been missed.

    Therefore the OR needs to judge if the OP's expenses have changed or not.

    Now as you know an allowance is made in the IPA for vehicle repairs. Of course in reality you never know if your car is going to break down right near the start when you have not been able to save up or near the end when you have been able to save. Therfore you may need to miss a few payments. In that case your expenditure has not changed it has just come all at the start when you dont have the cashflow. therefore the amounts are likely to be classed as missed and so need to be caught up with later.

    There are of course times when a totaly unexpected expense comes up that has not been accounted for and so the OR would class that as a short term change in expenditure and so no need to catch up later.

    As you can see there is not always a one answer fits all answer and there is some determination that the OR needs to make why it is important to look at it with actual experience from many many cases rather than a narrow point of view
    Hi, im Debtinfo, i am an ex insolvency examiner and over the years have personally dealt with thousands of bankruptcy cases.
    Please note that any views i put forth are not those of my former employer The Insolvency Service and do not constitute professional advice, you should always seek professional advice before entering insolvency proceedings.
  • AdvicePlease
    Well all of the above argument is academic really since I didnt ask for a suspension in my IPA, my dad gave me the money instead

    As it happens my IPA has been adjusted (or whatever the technical phrase is) down to nil at the moment, it is due for review again in January. So even if I had asked for a payment holiday it wouldnt have helped at all - but obviously you didnt know that when the suggestion was originally made
  • debtinfo
    glad you got it sorted anyway Advice
    Hi, im Debtinfo, i am an ex insolvency examiner and over the years have personally dealt with thousands of bankruptcy cases.
    Please note that any views i put forth are not those of my former employer The Insolvency Service and do not constitute professional advice, you should always seek professional advice before entering insolvency proceedings.
  • sniggings
    so you agree that if an amount is due but cant be paid at that time then it could be added on to the end of the IPA to catch up, yes? The exemple i used is simply to make it clearer because it is easier to see how a missed payment at the end rolls over the 3 year mark. The same principle applies to wherever the missed payment is during the IPA period. are we agreed on that?

    conversely if your expenses have genuinely changed that it is a lesser amount that is the due not the original amount and so it does not have to be made up at the end. (ie a lower amount is owed rather than an amount has been missed.

    Therefore the OR needs to judge if the OP's expenses have changed or not.

    Now as you know an allowance is made in the IPA for vehicle repairs. Of course in reality you never know if your car is going to break down right near the start when you have not been able to save up or near the end when you have been able to save. Therfore you may need to miss a few payments. In that case your expenditure has not changed it has just come all at the start when you dont have the cashflow. therefore the amounts are likely to be classed as missed and so need to be caught up with later.

    There are of course times when a totaly unexpected expense comes up that has not been accounted for and so the OR would class that as a short term change in expenditure and so no need to catch up later.

    As you can see there is not always a one answer fits all answer and there is some determination that the OR needs to make why it is important to look at it with actual experience from many many cases rather than a narrow point of view
    Originally posted by debtinfo

    I think it is very clear what I have said, you can give any number of "examples" you want but the fact remains, an IPA lasst for a total of 3 years, if you choose not to pay what is owe then of course it's still owed to moonbeaver, thats not the same as saying when an IPA is reduced to 0 or lowered the amount is still owed at the end of the IPA because if it is set at 0 or reduce you do not owe that money

    anyway I have helped the OP, so will not be replying to any more of your "examples"

  • kepar
    Sniggings actually I believe in this case you are wrong.

    Whilst paying an IPA your payment could be reduced to 0, if a change in circumstances deem you have no spare income. THe months whilst it is set at 0 will count towards the monthly payments.

    But an OR can suspend an IPA for a few months if you require a large necessary bill to be paid. Note the term suspend, this means that these months will not count towards the 36 payments/3 years.

    Over the last 3-4 years I have read at least 10 cases on this site where this has happened.
  • sniggings
    Sniggings actually I believe in this case you are wrong.

    Whilst paying an IPA your payment could be reduced to 0, if a change in circumstances deem you have no spare income. THe months whilst it is set at 0 will count towards the monthly payments.

    But an OR can suspend an IPA for a few months if you require a large necessary bill to be paid. Note the term suspend, this means that these months will not count towards the 36 payments/3 years.

    Over the last 3-4 years I have read at least 10 cases on this site where this has happened.
    Originally posted by kepar

    If your IPA is reduced or set at 0, it is for a reason, if you have a large expense, then that is the reason, so it would be silly to then say, we stopped your IPA because you had extra expenses but we still want you to pay it back at the end of the IPA! so when they start it again, you will not only have to pay the excess income but also for the period when it was lowered or suspended, an IPA is not suspended but set at 0 or lowered.

    if you don't believe me maybe a quote from our very own debtinfo, he can be trusted to give nonconflicting advice

    Basically, by his time you are in the IPA, the IPA continues to run for the full 36 months. Usually they just vary it so that you pay 0 pm. The missing months count towards the total. So if after 30 months you regained a surplus then you would resume payments of what you could afford for the last 6 months

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