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key safes
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# 21
Biggles
Old 14-02-2011, 3:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russe11 View Post
THE CONCLUSION IS IF YOU HAVE COMBINATION KEYSAFE, ITS NOT VERY SAFE.
I agree, but it meets a need, especially where someone, like my Mum, had maybe three different carers come each day. You don't want spare keys all over the place.
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# 22
alanq
Old 14-02-2011, 4:54 PM
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I can't do the maths (at least not in the time that I am prepared to spent on it) but this Police Approved key safe has 1024 combinations. How bad must the worst be!

http://www.keysafe.co.uk/frequently_asked_questions#
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# 23
mjmal51
Old 17-02-2011, 7:56 AM
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The Keysafe C500 which is their Police Approved product actually has 4096 different combinations
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/police_appr...keysafe_002049
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# 24
alanq
Old 17-02-2011, 9:59 AM
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"How many potential combinations are there on a GE KeySafeâ„¢ ?
1024 potential codes."
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/frequently_asked_questions#

If the supplier cannot decide if it is 1024 or 4096 it does not inspire confidence.

Update: Thinking about it a lock with n buttons would have 2^n combinations. The C500 has 12 buttons so 4096 seems right. 1024 would be for a lock with 10 buttons like some of their other models. It seems that the FAQ hasn't been updated to make that distinction.

Last edited by alanq; 17-02-2011 at 1:35 PM.
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# 25
mjmal51
Old 17-02-2011, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanq View Post
"How many potential combinations are there on a GE KeySafe™ ?
1024 potential codes."
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/frequently_asked_questions#

If the supplier cannot decide if it is 1024 or 4096 it does not inspire confidence.

Update: Thinking about it a lock with n buttons would have 2^n combinations. The C500 has 12 buttons so 4096 seems right. 1024 would be for a lock with 10 buttons like some of their other models. It seems that the FAQ hasn't been updated to make that distinction.
The supplier does not have it wrong.
The first link is for the GE Keysafe at 1024 combinations.

The Police Approved model at 4096 combinations is the C500 model http://www.keysafe.co.uk/police_appr...keysafe_002049
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# 26
alanq
Old 17-02-2011, 3:31 PM
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Is this the "first link" that you are referring to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
There are 10 buttons. If you have the right 4 pressed in, it can be opened. The order doesn't come into it, they are separate physical buttons (see picture on http://www.keysafe.co.uk/).
If so then the picture is of a Keysafe with buttons 0-9,A & B. 12 buttons. 4096 combinations.
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# 27
mjmal51
Old 18-02-2011, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanq View Post
Is this the "first link" that you are referring to?
If so then the picture is of a Keysafe with buttons 0-9,A & B. 12 buttons. 4096 combinations.

.
The faqs in post #24 relate to standard GE Keysafe with 10 buttons http://www.keysafe.co.uk/j5_over_the...fe_001017_8265

This is cheaper than the 12 button C500 police approved model
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# 28
alanq
Old 18-02-2011, 12:33 PM
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I don't know whether it is suitable for placing outdoors but I saw a key safe in Aldi this week with 4 separate digits (10,000 combinations?) for £6.99. (At least the description says 4 digits. I can only see 3 in the photo).

http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers...uys3_17314.htm

Last edited by alanq; 18-02-2011 at 12:37 PM.
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# 29
mjmal51
Old 18-02-2011, 12:59 PM
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The Aldi is not for outdoors if you believe in security. This one is meant for keys inside the house. It was Aldi however that first made me look at keysafes a few weeks ago when they did an outdoor one for £8.99. I was always aware of the risk of getting accidently locked out or losing keys when on hols, etc.
I googled lots of makes/models and ended up being convinced by the Keysafe C500 and decided it was worth paying out for.
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# 30
cavework
Old 18-02-2011, 5:04 PM
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C500 is one of the best
In 10 years I have never known anyone crack the code.
Keysafes have been prised off properties but they are usually found near by when the thief realised they could not get into it.
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# 31
minimo
Old 18-02-2011, 7:49 PM
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hi i used to work as a comunity support worker and all of the elderly people i visited had key safes, in the 5 years i worked not one person had the same number on there safe and i visited alot of houses. they are very safe my own dads got one.
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# 32
Biggles
Old 21-02-2011, 3:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavework View Post
C500 is one of the best
In 10 years I have never known anyone crack the code.
It was only introduced last year.
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# 33
Biggles
Old 21-02-2011, 3:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmal51 View Post
The supplier does not have it wrong.
The first link is for the GE Keysafe at 1024 combinations.

The Police Approved model at 4096 combinations is the C500 model
Yes, but there's a lot of sneaky flannel in those figures. They are the total number of combinations for all possible numbers of digits added together (ie, in the case of the C500, if you use three digits there are 220 combinations, if you use four there are 495 etc etc, and they all add up to 4096).

You first have to decide how many digits you plan to use. This key decision determines how many combinations a burglar needs to get through.

If you settle for four digits (a bad choice), there are 210 possible combinations with the original Keysafe and 495 with the new C500. Still crackable.

If you settle for five digits, the most likely outcome is that the burglar will waste his time trying to crack a PIN-type 4-digit number, then give up as he won't know whether you have gone for maybe 3, 5, 6 or 7 digits instead.

If he does then try 5 digits, there are 252 combinations with the old or 792 with the new Keysafe. That is still doable but hopefully he'll be running out of time after running through 4 digits first.

With the new C500, having 12 digits, the best option would be a 6-digit code, as that has 924 possible combinations.
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# 34
Biggles
Old 21-02-2011, 3:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minimo View Post
hi i used to work as a comunity support worker and all of the elderly people i visited had key safes, in the 5 years i worked not one person had the same number on there safe and i visited alot of houses. they are very safe my own dads got one.
Just out of curiosity, Minimo, how many people used 4-digit codes and how many used a different number of digits? I know Keysafe currently recommend using 5 to 7 digits but that hasn't always been the case.

Last edited by Biggles; 21-02-2011 at 10:16 PM.
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# 35
cavework
Old 21-02-2011, 7:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
It was only introduced last year.
Sorry I must be mistaken then ,but I know this type of key safe perhaps not the C500 but its predecessors have been around since 2000 because I have used them on many properties.
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# 36
mjmal51
Old 22-02-2011, 7:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
Yes, but there's a lot of sneaky flannel in those figures. They are the total number of combinations for all possible numbers of digits added together (ie, in the case of the C500, if you use three digits there are 220 combinations, if you use four there are 495 etc etc, and they all add up to 4096).

You first have to decide how many digits you plan to use. This key decision determines how many combinations a burglar needs to get through.

If you settle for four digits (a bad choice), there are 210 possible combinations with the original Keysafe and 495 with the new C500. Still crackable.

If you settle for five digits, the most likely outcome is that the burglar will waste his time trying to crack a PIN-type 4-digit number, then give up as he won't know whether you have gone for maybe 3, 5, 6 or 7 digits instead.

If he does then try 5 digits, there are 252 combinations with the old or 792 with the new Keysafe. That is still doable but hopefully he'll be running out of time after running through 4 digits first.

With the new C500, having 12 digits, the best option would be a 6-digit code, as that has 924 possible combinations.
The C500 recommends using up to a 7 digit code which gives even greater security. Also you can only use each digit only once when setting the code but would the burglar know that when trying to crack it?

Last edited by mjmal51; 22-02-2011 at 8:09 AM.
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# 37
Biggles
Old 22-02-2011, 8:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmal51 View Post
The C500 recommends using up to a 7 digit code which gives even greater security. Also you can only use each digit only once when setting the code but would the burglar know that when trying to crack it?
They recommend 5 to 7 but, in fact, 7 digits would only give you 792 combinations (same as 5), 6 gives you most. Though any number other than 4 is good.

It's best to assume your theoretical burglar knows how the Keysafe works but he would soon find out when he tried to crack it, as it is accessed by the keys being pressed and staying in.
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# 38
mjmal51
Old 22-02-2011, 9:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
They recommend 5 to 7 but, in fact, 7 digits would only give you 792 combinations (same as 5), 6 gives you most. Though any number other than 4 is good.

It's best to assume your theoretical burglar knows how the Keysafe works but he would soon find out when he tried to crack it, as it is accessed by the keys being pressed and staying in.
Bought one a few weeks ago but have not got around to setting/installing it yet as having some work done on the house and prefer to fit it unseen by others.
Will use a 6 figure combination then.
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# 39
Biggles
Old 22-02-2011, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mjmal51 View Post
Bought one a few weeks ago but have not got around to setting/installing it yet as having some work done on the house and prefer to fit it unseen by others.
Good decision, as the first line of defence is to fit it where casual passers-by won't even know it's there. My Mum had an (unlocked) porch and I fitted hers in there; it wasn't obvious to passers-by or even to most visitors, with the added bonus that the carers were out of the weather while they operated it.
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# 40
marmalize
Old 22-02-2011, 11:23 AM
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as a care worker i have been using these safes for years ...most people use a 4 digit code(and to be honest most codes are their or family members birthdates) at one time i had 3 clients all with the same code of 1920!!!...need i say don't use a birthdate..or 4 corners...or first 2 last 2 !...

but i have to say that in all the years of using these , and i work in some extremely dodgy areas(needing us to travel in pairs for safety) i have never had a keysafe either opened by guessing the number or by force(had a couple beat off the wall with metal bars and obvious attempts at getting in it but the keysafe stayed intact)

just make sure you don't site it over a drain...can't tell you how many near misses i have had when the key falls out as you open the safe!!
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