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Sounds like we have a professional complainer here!
You took a LL to court about a non-protected deposit even though it was protected when asked.
And you involved local authority about a CP12 not being issued by a certain date, even though you had a valid one at the time.
My advice, and I know many won't will agree with me here. Speak to your LL first if you have any issues - don't go and get everyone & their dog wound up against the LL. A quiet word will see most reasonable LLs acting quickly to correct any oversight. LLs are human like everyone else - and yes they like everyone else make the odd mistake now and again. But LLs, even the reasonable ones, are only reasonable when they are being treated reasonably by their tenants.
However, with your attitude, it's no wonder you're being evicted - and expect trouble finding a new place too as I doubt you'll be getting any reference off your current LL.
My advice, and I know many won't will agree with me here.
Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Premier
Speak to your LL first if you have any issues - don't go and get everyone & their dog wound up against the LL. A quiet word will see most reasonable LLs acting quickly to correct any oversight. LLs are human like everyone else - and yes they like everyone else make the odd mistake now and again. But LLs, even the reasonable ones, are only reasonable when they are being treated reasonably by their tenants.
.
It is not reasonable for a LL who is renting properties as a business to fail in his/her legal obligations to his/her tenants. I do wish that you would stop offering these poor excuses for the behaviour of incompetent, unprofessional LLs and LAs: the very ones who would be the first to draw a tenant's attention to any of their shortcomings under the law and/or the contract terms.
I seem to think we've done this one before Premier.....
I just don't buy the "poor little LL, give him a chance, he's only human, he's made a mistake" line - the majority of errant LLs/LAs know exactly what they are supposed to do and simply choose not to do it, or to do it within their own timescale.
Their behaviour is an insult to the tenants whose money they gladly take every month, to the good name of decent LLs, and it's a clear two fingers in the air to the law.
Do you personally only comply with LL & T laws/regs when you are caught out?
Last edited by tbs624; 05-08-2008 at 8:40 PM..
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...The two judges who concluded that the sanctions of the Tenancy Deposit Scheme still apply despite retrospective compliance were District Judge Singleton, Claim No. 8GL00457 Stankova v Glassonbury on 10th March 2008 at Gloucester Crown & County Court ...
Sounds like the LL got what he deserved!
Quote:
On 28.10.07 the landlord entered the property and removed a carpet and the fireplace from the lounge making it unusable and also pulled the extractor fan out of kitchen leaving a hole in roof. The Council dealt with the harassment.
In giving his decision the judge expressed concern that ‘it goes against the grain’ and advised the landlord to take legal advice as to whether he could delay the 14 days in which he must pay the claimant.
It is not reasonable for a LL who is renting properties as a business to fail in his/her legal obligations to his/her tenants. I do wish that you would stop offering these poor excuses for the behaviour of incompetent, unprofessional LLs and LAs: the very ones who would be the first to draw a tenant's attention to any of their shortcomings under the law and/or the contract terms.
I seem to think we've done this one before Premier.....
I just don't buy the poor little LL, give him a chance, he's only human, he's made a mistake - the majority of errant LLs/LAs know exactly what they are supposed to do and simply choose not to do it, or to do it within their own timescale.
Their behaviour is an insult to the tenants whose money they gladly take every month, to the good name of decent LLs, and it's a clear two fingers in the air to the law.
I knew it wouldn't be liked by some...and wasn't surprised by the first person to object!
Not everyone is perfect like you, tbs624
Let's hope you never exceed a speed limit or fail to ensure the wheels stop rotating at a stop line.
The LL hasn't failed in his obligations - as the Judge today decided and the EHO decided. Perhaps the LL did make a mistake, but no one was exposed to any cost or other damages and the LL obviously rectified the matter as soon as it was brought to his attention.
Sounds like we have a professional complainer here!
You took a LL to court about a non-protected deposit even though it was protected when asked.
And you involved local authority about a CP12 not being issued by a certain date, even though you had a valid one at the time.
My advice, and I know many won't will agree with me here. Speak to your LL first if you have any issues - don't go and get everyone & their dog wound up against the LL. A quiet word will see most reasonable LLs acting quickly to correct any oversight. LLs are human like everyone else - and yes they like everyone else make the odd mistake now and again. But LLs, even the reasonable ones, are only reasonable when they are being treated reasonably by their tenants.
However, with your attitude, it's no wonder you're being evicted - and expect trouble finding a new place too as I doubt you'll be getting any reference off your current LL.
I think you should make sure you know all the facts before you make such judgemental comments. We didnt just take the LL to court because he hadn't protected the deposit, there was a lot more to it than that.
So you think a LL who puts his tenants at risk by not having a gas cert and doing dodgy electrical work just needs a quiet word in his ear???
I am not a professional complainer, I am a victim in this situation, one who now has to find a new home.
If you can't post helpful advice on here, then please don't bother. People on here are looking for help and advice not arguments, which from your other posts I've seen seems to be your speciality!
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I think you should make sure you know all the facts before you make such judgemental comments. We didnt just take the LL to court because he hadn't protected the deposit, there was a lot more to it than that.
But that was the basis of your claim as described here and the basis of why you lost today!
(I can only go by the information you post - perhaps that's why you lost today? A Judge can only base his decision on what you tell him)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prancer
So you think a LL who puts his tenants at risk by not having a gas cert and doing dodgy electrical work just needs a quiet word in his ear???
Yes - why not have that quiet word in his ear before the CP12 expires if you were so worried about it, else 24hours won't cause much of an increased risk. It's all about being reasonable rather than claiming your the 'victim' in all this and 'knowing your rights' - they didn't get you very far today did they? And they didn't get you very far with the EHO previously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prancer
I am not a professional complainer, I am a victim in this situation, one who now has to find a new home.
If you can't post helpful advice on here, then please don't bother. People on here are looking for help and advice not arguments, which from your other posts I've seen seems to be your speciality!
If you don't think first bringing any issues to the attention of the person who is best able to resolve them (e.g the LA/LL) is not good advice, I suggest you put me on your ignore list because that's the type of advice I have and will continue to post.
But then you know that and you still signed up to this forum, only made your first post today, and are telling me not to post comments you don't agree with...all sounds very familiar.
Quote from|Premier's post on the Stankova v Glassonbury case with Premier's highlighting :
"In giving his decision the judge expressed concern that ‘it goes against the grain’ and advised the landlord to take legal advice as to whether he could delay the 14 days in which he must pay the claimant."
AFIAA, this comment was in reference to the fact that it was a strict liability claim, and the landlord's counterclaim for rent arrears and property damage issues could not be set against it, rather than the idea of any tenants receiving such an award per se being contrary to what the judge may have believed was right...
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LLs have to be able to produce Gas Safety Certificates going back for the last 2 years' rentals at the property.....I'd be passing that bit onto the local Tenancy Relations Officer & Environmental Health Officer, plus the Health & Safety Exec who are responsible for enforcing gas safety regs....... (LLs who fail to comply with gas regs face a court appearance a fines of several K.)
Where do I find that information about two years? Not doubting your info, but just haven't heard about it before. It would never be a problem because the Corgi guy has to keep copies anyway, but like to know for my own records. I must admit, I throw the old one away when I get a new one.
"You have duties under the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 to arrange maintenance by a CORGI-registered installer for all pipe work, appliances and flues, which you own and have provided for your tenants use. You must also arrange for an annual gas safety check to be carried out every 12 months by a CORGI-registered installer. You must keep a record of the safety check for 2 years and issue a copy to each existing tenant within 28 days of the check being completed and issue a copy to any new tenants before they move in." (My highlighting)
Certainly the certs from British Gas et al also have it highlighted somewhere on the certificate itself. No doubt there will be heated discussions from some quarters on the exact interpretation of that wording, but my understanding is that it means the gas safety cert itself.
Clutton, Bungarm, Barnaby Bear - your views?
Last edited by tbs624; 05-08-2008 at 9:43 PM..
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"You have duties under the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 to arrange maintenance by a CORGI-registered installer for all pipe work, appliances and flues, which you own and have provided for your tenants use. You must also arrange for an annual gas safety check to be carried out every 12 months by a CORGI-registered installer. You must keep a record of the safety check for 2 years and issue a copy to each existing tenant within 28 days of the check being completed and issue a copy to any new tenants before they move in." (My highlighting)
Certainly the certs from British Gas et al also have it highlighted somewhere on the certificate itself. No doubt there will be heated discussions from some quarters on the exact interpretation of that wording, but my understanding is that it means the gas safety cert itself.
Clutton, Bungarm, Barnaby Bear - your views?
Well, to me it's black and white...I keep ALL the gas certs for all our properties going back almost ten years. You could argue I suppose that the tenant should have copies of the last two, (from reading that) but I have never contemplated doing this, I only give a copy of the current one mainly because I don't think it's neccessary, and the outgoing tenant invariably loses the previous copy anyway.
By each tenant, I presume they mean 'one of the tenants.' Some houses we have 4 tenants (students living as one household) and I definitely do not give each a copy, rather the copy is for the whole household.
Incidently, in all my years of letting, I have NEVER been asked for a gas cert by a tenant. In fact, the overwhelming majority of my tenants are mildly surprised when I give them one.
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That's great advice, thank you, I'll certainly make contact with them as someone needs to define this law. IMO it's now giving landlords the message that they only need to protect the deposit when they have to and I don't think that was the intention of the legislation.
Also forget to mention, as a direct result of our claim we have been served with a Section 21 by our LL (no rent arrears etc.).
What did you expect? him to drop you around a bunch of flowers?
This law was flawed from inception and only encourages money grabbers to seek benefit.
Any fine levied should not be for the benefit of the tenant, but for the benefit of the scheme itself.
OP please can you post the full details of your case (where it was heard, who it was heard before, claim number etc) so that we can add your case to the list of known outcomes.
Many thanks.
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Well, to me it's black and white...I keep ALL the gas certs for all our properties going back almost ten years. You could argue I suppose that the tenant should have copies of the last two, (from reading that) but I have never contemplated doing this, I only give a copy of the current one mainly because I don't think it's neccessary, and the outgoing tenant invariably loses the previous copy anyway.
Thanks for responding. I agree - it's not the most well-constructed sentence from the HSE - my understanding was that it was saying:
1. LL keeps copies for 2 years (but I think many of us do keep them for longer).
2. if the property is already let, then tenant has to receive cert within 28 days of check
3. a new tenant mus be given the cert before they move in.
(I can't follow the reasoning on the 28-day bit because in most cases the gas safety certif is produced on the spot, at the time of the check unless the LL is slow to settle bills with the CORGi bloke.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungarm2001
By each tenant, I presume they mean 'one of the tenants.' Some houses we have 4 tenants (students living as one household) and I definitely do not give each a copy, rather the copy is for the whole household.
I'd agree there - would give a copy to each tenant if on separate contracts though. Maybe it would be easier if, as with Holiday Lets, it was displayed on the wall - look v attractive, alongside EPC, evidence of LL insurance, permission to let from mortgagor etc.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungarm2001
Incidently, in all my years of letting, I have NEVER been asked for a gas cert by a tenant. In fact, the overwhelming majority of my tenants are mildly surprised when I give them one.
I think that's quite a common experience amongst decent LLs - whether enough tenants don't actually know that there should be one, or whether they do know and they are concerned that if they start asking for such things they'll get off on the wrong foot?
Last edited by tbs624; 06-08-2008 at 9:09 AM..
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"I'd agree there - would give a copy to each tenant if on separate contracts though. Maybe it would be easier if, as with Holiday Lets, it was displayed on the wall - look v attractive, alongside EPC, evidence of LL insurance, permission to let from mortgagor etc....."
I LOOOVE IT!!! What a cracking idea!! As long as the colours didn't clash with me beautiful magnolia paintwork!! Who knows, some bright jobsworth might even think that one up for future legislation. I can just imagine the rules and regs that would come along with it...
Incidently, following along those lines somewhat, we have started leaving a 'house file' in each property, particularly the student lets. We put everything in there, gas certs, instruction manuals, etc including...and I kid you not...how the water saving flushing system works on the new loos.
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he didn't have to follow those as they did not come from a higher court.
He did though give us permission to appeal saying it would be in the public interest as it's wrong that so many judges disagree and give different verdicts. He also admitted he could be wrong on his interpretation of the law.
We are definitely going to appeal, does anyone know of any appeals so far ?
I don't know of any, no. I've chatted to other people about this, and no-one knows of any appeals yet heard.
The cases I know of are other first instance decisions, and are not binding on another judge.
OH said there were other examples in employment law of, in effect, a penalty against one party for failing to comply, such as the requirement to provide written terms and conditions within a certain no. of days.
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You will lose again and this time you will be liable for the costs, I agree that LLs shouldn't be able to get away with this, but think seriously you will probably be throwing good money after bad.
I really don't think you can give defininte advice like this!
Yes, there is a risk the OP will lose on appeal. But there is no clear view I've come across to say that the law will be interpreted in the way the judge did in this case - there are two views.
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LLs are human like everyone else - and yes they like everyone else make the odd mistake now and again. But LLs, even the reasonable ones, are only reasonable when they are being treated reasonably by their tenants. .
There is nothign reasonable about several breaches of an LL's legal obligations.
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i keep all my CORGIs in one file, and have many going back 8 years - and the tenants get a copy from the CORGI guy on the day of inspection. tenants rarely leave the original copy behind, so i often need to do a photocopy for the next tenant.
i have only been asked once for a CORGI cert by a prospective tenant who had had a rubbish LL before me.
this deposit legislation is very poorly written - hence all the who-ha about what it means.
this judge seems to have interpreted the letter of the law - and he cannot be faulted for that. i guess we have to wait for a higher courts decision
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Pls be nice to all MoneySavers. There's no such thing as a stupid question, and even if you disagree courtesy helps. Take care over copyright. Use excerpts and links rather than copying long text. This site asserts copyright on all comments posted on the board.
Pls be nice to all MoneySavers. There's no such thing as a stupid question, and even if you disagree courtesy helps.
As long as the colours didn't clash with me beautiful magnolia paintwork!!
Who knows, some bright jobsworth might even think that one up for future legislation. I can just imagine the rules and regs that would come along with it...
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