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Each time someone on here says "here's a good free agreement " we get another good example of exactly why the free ones should not be used. IMO there are several clauses in there that are very poorly worded, for example:A good one is xxxxxxxxxx there are free agreements on there plus some tips3.4.3 Keep cleansed and free from obstruction all gutters, down pipes, drains, sanitary apparatus, water and waste pipes;A tenant can only be held responsible for blockages than be shown to have been caused by his/her actions or omissions - this clause looks to me like a LL seeking to dump some of his S11 LL&T A obligations3.4.6 Clean all the windows of the Premises both inside and outside at least once in every two calendar months of the Term and at the end of the Term;This one is way too prescriptive: LL cannot tell a T how often to clean their windows, and there is dissent over whether a T can be obliged to clean the outside. And of course, if the windows are not shiny and bright at the start, and properly recorded as being so, the LL is out of luck.
Get a proper Tenancy Agreement -one that safeguards you and your property. This is just one of things that a LL association can help you with.If you are too tight to pay out for something as basic as this, stick with your day job and leave lettings to those who know what they are doing.
The continued use of poorly worded agreements, the terms of which often seek to place the T at a distinct disadvantage, will IMO eventually lead to one Govt regulated type of agreement that all LLs have to use with no alterations.0 -
Each time someone on here says "here's a good free agreement " we get another good example of exactly why the free ones should not be used. IMO there are several clauses in there that are very poorly worded, for example:3.4.3 Keep cleansed and free from obstruction all gutters, down pipes, drains, sanitary apparatus, water and waste pipes;
A tenant can only be held responsible for blockages than be shown to have been caused by his/her actions or omissions - this clause looks to me like a LL seeking to dump some of his S11 LL&T A obligations3.4.6 Clean all the windows of the Premises both inside and outside at least once in every two calendar months of the Term and at the end of the Term;This one is way too prescriptive: LL cannot tell a T how often to clean their windows, and there is dissent over whether a T can be obliged to clean the outside. And of course, if the windows are not shiny and bright at the start, and properly recorded as being so, the LL is out of luck.
Get a proper Tenancy Agreement -one that safeguards you and your property. This is just one of things that a LL association can help you with.If you are too tight to pay out for something as basic as this, stick with your day job and leave lettings to those who know what they are doing.
The continued use of poorly worded agreements, the terms of which often seek to place the T at a distinct disadvantage, will IMO eventually lead to one Govt regulated type of agreement that all LLs have to use with no alterations.
I'm not a landlord, but I am a tenant - the terms listed are pretty standard I'd say - its simply saying keep a property clean - why would a landlord not want that?
As for drains etc - I'd expect to be charged for pouring fat etc down a drain and blocking it or not helping to maintain the property I live in by highlighting issues to my landlord.
But as with all free tenancy agreements - surely, if as a landlord you don't agree with something, you alter it?
The problem is I see is that too many people think that just because you pay tens or hundreds of pounds for something it's better. FREE usually means that it is not customised to one specific person - you alter it to customise it to your own needs. If you PAY you can ask for these to be changed for you as the person quoted above obvioulsy would. Its swings and roundabouts though.0 -
Maybe I need to clarify my post above, as you have perhaps misunderstood what I was saying.I'm not a landlord, but I am a tenant - the terms listed are pretty standard I'd say - its simply saying keep a property clean - why would a landlord not want that?
The LL *would* of course want that - the point is is that for* the tenant* the terms that I mentioned from that agreement that you linked to are not "simply saying keep a property clean" - they are overly prescriptive and/or downright wrong.
Many terms that LLs put into their tenancy agreements will not stand up in court, precisely because some LLs persist in using freebie TAs or cobbling together one of their own, rather than getting one which is properly worded and which complies with current legislation and regulations.
As for drains etc - I'd expect to be charged for pouring fat etc down a drain and blocking it or not helping to maintain the property I live in by highlighting issues to my landlord.
When I said:
this was because the LL has very specific repair and maintenance obligations set out under Statute, ie the LL and T Act 1985, S11.A tenant can only be held responsible for blockages than be shown to have been caused by his/her actions or omissions - this clause looks to me like a LL seeking to dump some of his S11 LL&T A obligations
These obligations covers drains etc and the LL cannot and must not seek to pass those responsibilities back to the T.
The only exception to these obligations is, as I said before, when a T’s own act or omission can be shown to have caused the blockage or repair issue , ie by pouring fat down a drain as you describe above.
The free agreement mentions the LLs obligations but then wrongly goes onto state:
“ It is the Tenant’s obligation to….so I think you have misunderstood the issue.
3.4.3 Keep cleansed and free from obstruction all gutters, down pipes, drains, sanitary apparatus, water and waste pipes;”
No, you get a decent contract drawn up by someone who knows what they are doing from the start - not only does the LL run the risk of not fully protecting himself and/or his own property if s/he doesn’t , s/he can end up trying to impose obligations on the Tenant that are contrary to the law.But as with all free tenancy agreements - surely, if as a landlord you don't agree with something, you alter it?
A decent TA does not cost tens of hundreds of pounds - letting property should be done professionally or not at all. As with any type of legal contrac,t or a will for example, trying to unravel the resultant legal problems that are often created by an amateur or poorly worded tenancy agreement will cost a newbie LL more than getting it done properly in the first place.The problem is I see is that too many people think that just because you pay tens or hundreds of pounds for something it's better. FREE usually means that it is not customised to one specific person - you alter it to customise it to your own needs.
As you are a tenant,surely you want to be signed up to an agreement that is easily understood, complies properly with the law and doesn't seek to place you at a disadvantage? That type of TA can be found via the LL associations, solicitor Tessa Shepperson's LandlordLaw site or a good local solicitor with LL&T experience. (both the RLA and the Landlordlaw sites offer agreements that are approved by the Plain English Campaign, which makes things even more straightforward for both parties).
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This entire thread remids me of the 'can you recommend a free mortgage broker' threads. You get what you pay for.I am a Mortgage Consultant and don't like to be told what I can and can't put in a signature so long as it's legal and truthful.0
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PasturesNew wrote: »Try:
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk
http://www.singingpig.co.uk
A tenancy agreement is something you should consider paying a bit for though. It's your security. If you want a bad tenant out you've just got your Agreement and the law. And many bad tenants really know their stuff.
Oh yes, of course. Paying for something makes it better.
Getting the right agreement is more important. The right one can be free. Maybe we should build a perfect tenancy agreement on here. One that suits the LL and the Tenant.
Remind me, what is the name of this website?
GGThere are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those that don't.0 -
I offer free advice regarding certain aspects of renting, mainly means of escape from fire. That's part of what my job involves.
I sometimes come across properties which have been upgraded under the recommendations of paid consultants which is completely inadequate and just wrong.
Free advice is often better than that which you pay for.0 -
I offer free advice regarding certain aspects of renting, mainly means of escape from fire. That's part of what my job involves.
I sometimes come across properties which have been upgraded under the recommendations of paid consultants which is completely inadequate and just wrong.
Free advice is often better than that which you pay for.
No further commentI am a Mortgage Consultant and don't like to be told what I can and can't put in a signature so long as it's legal and truthful.0 -
The point I'm trying to make is that just because advice might be free, it doesn't mean it's worthless. Indeed it might be worth far more than paid for advice.
I've been to houses where a landlord has done lots of work under the advice of paid pros, and I've then told him to rip it out and do it again properly. If he'd asked for my free advice in the first place not only would he have saved his fee for the advice, he would have saved the cost of doing the work twice. Paying for advice turned out to be far more expensive than he thought.
It doesn't always work that way of course but then clearly neither does, "you get what you pay for."0 -
No, of course "paying for something" does not, per se, mean that something is better but getting it done properly always does - unfortunately, that generally means paying someone else for the work behind it.Gorgeous_George wrote: »Oh yes, of course. Paying for something makes it better.
LLs need to get their heads around this one - it is highly likely that it will soon be a regulatory requirement that all LLs are signed up to a bonafide LL association. Once you have paid your (tax deductable) Association membership fee, the charge for a decent AST agreement is minimal - less than the cost of a bottle of wine.
..but unfortunately the one linked to here is questionable , as are the others that we see promoted from time to time via this board. Another one recently had the immortal line "the LL shall not be liable for any liabilities" IIRC :laugh: And how do people know that the free one that they've got is "right" ? The answer is that they generally don't until it needs to be relied on in the event of a dispute by which time it's too late: bear in mind also that a Judge is likely to have particular views on a LL whose contracts seek to take away a tenant's legal rights or to relieve the LL of his own legal obligations.Gorgeous_George wrote: »Getting the right agreement is more important. The right one can be free.
How about we don't - legal agreements are best drawn up by those who are legal professionals. We see enough posts on here, from both LLs and Ts, that show that there is widespread ignorance of the very basic tenets of LL & T law - let's not add to that potent mix.Gorgeous_George wrote: »Maybe we should build a perfect tenancy agreement on here. One that suits the LL and the Tenant.
GG, you are not normally this slow - here's the money saving bit for you:Gorgeous_George wrote: »Remind me, what is the name of this website?
GG......As with any type of legal contrac,t or a will for example, trying to unravel the resultant legal problems that are often created by an amateur or poorly worded tenancy agreement will cost a newbie LL more than getting it done properly in the first place.0 -
Maybe I need to clarify my post above, as you have perhaps misunderstood what I was saying.
The LL *would* of course want that - the point is is that for* the tenant* the terms that I mentioned from that agreement that you linked to are not "simply saying keep a property clean" - they are overly prescriptive and/or downright wrong.
Many terms that LLs put into their tenancy agreements will not stand up in court, precisely because some LLs persist in using freebie TAs or cobbling together one of their own, rather than getting one which is properly worded and which complies with current legislation and regulations.
When I said: this was because the LL has very specific repair and maintenance obligations set out under Statute, ie the LL and T Act 1985, S11.
These obligations covers drains etc and the LL cannot and must not seek to pass those responsibilities back to the T.
The only exception to these obligations is, as I said before, when a T’s own act or omission can be shown to have caused the blockage or repair issue , ie by pouring fat down a drain as you describe above.
The free agreement mentions the LLs obligations but then wrongly goes onto state:“ It is the Tenant’s obligation to….3.4.3 Keep cleansed and free from obstruction all gutters, down pipes, drains, sanitary apparatus, water and waste pipes;”so I think you have misunderstood the issue.
No, you get a decent contract drawn up by someone who knows what they are doing from the start - not only does the LL run the risk of not fully protecting himself and/or his own property if s/he doesn’t , s/he can end up trying to impose obligations on the Tenant that are contrary to the law.
A decent TA does not cost tens of hundreds of pounds - letting property should be done professionally or not at all. As with any type of legal contrac,t or a will for example, trying to unravel the resultant legal problems that are often created by an amateur or poorly worded tenancy agreement will cost a newbie LL more than getting it done properly in the first place.
As you are a tenant,surely you want to be signed up to an agreement that is easily understood, complies properly with the law and doesn't seek to place you at a disadvantage? That type of TA can be found via the LL associations, solicitor Tessa Shepperson's LandlordLaw site or a good local solicitor with LL&T experience. (both the RLA and the Landlordlaw sites offer agreements that are approved by the Plain English Campaign, which makes things even more straightforward for both parties).
Thank you for the clarification - I understand your point much better now. I think I can see both sides, I do agree that people must be safeguarded.0
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