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Hoarding...not just on TV

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  • Jojo_the_Tightfisted
    Jojo_the_Tightfisted Posts: 27,228
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    edited 10 June 2012 at 10:24PM
    Thanks, everyone. I initially just wanted to start with the hall, as I had no idea what was lying in wait for me and it sounded simple;bag up 25 coats and several shoes, brooms and gadgets, wash down the woodwork and the door to get her accustomed to the idea.

    She'd even agreed to move them for me.

    But when I got there, she had been fannying around tipping stuff from one corner in front of the back door. Allegedly. And the sheer scale of stuff was like a shovel found the back of the head.

    So I had no choice but to abandon my plans and get dug in. I suspect any Plan I come up with will be rejected for one reason or another, I'm not even convinced she hasn't spent her Sunday deliberately filling the void under the table with more stuff.


    But she said I can come again in the morning. Oh, and she's off to get her hair done.

    I think I'll aim for finding the kitchen sink this time. Maybe the table top as well. If that's unacceptable, I'll try to find the bath and maybe even the toilet floor. If that's rejected, I'll wash the front door and hall window.



    I have asked for the council details, but she claims this is all verbal and that nothing can be done without a letter and then she'll make sure they can't chuck her out. I smell !!!!!!!!. Which makes a change from catshit, I must admit.

    If she does get evicted before getting herself killed in there from tripping or fire or smothering or infection, she's not coming here. I am not having her triumphantly exclaim upon finding a cup on the bookcase that there is proof my house is identical to hers and I'm a hypocrite. I've had her here once and she informed me that the place was cold, bare and I had to get some bookcases to fill the 3 foot wide landing. And I needed some ornaments and pictures of doggies, apparently.

    It's not spotless here, but even everyday stuff bugs me, like a plate on the side and not in the dishwasher. Or using a mug for tea twice without washing it in between. Or that I've put some paperwork in alike to look at later, as I'm too busy and it looks like a paper hoarder starting up.

    I keep on reminding myself that I chose to not deck her the last day she ever hit me, I chose to offer help, I can choose to walk away if she loses it again. Or if it takes uP too much of my life and energy.


    Bleurgh. I need sleep.
    I could dream to wide extremes, I could do or die: I could yawn and be withdrawn and watch the world go by.
    colinw wrote: »
    Yup you are officially Rock n Roll :D
  • theoldcynic
    theoldcynic Posts: 247 Forumite
    Jojo, before you go to sleep, I wanted to say that I think what your mother is doing is called projection. She is projecting her own issues onto you. This is a really simplified explanation of it...

    http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/ss/defensemech_7.htm

    This is really hard to handle when it is your own mother doing this, as we are so used as a child to taking them at their word and often internalising it.

    You need to understand that she is doing this as a defence mechanism, it appears to be a part of her web of denial. Your greatest asset to you at this moment in time is to be aware of and vigilant to her behaviours and actions. As long as you are aware and can look at them from a distance you can try to emotionally separate yourself from it.

    From what you say I don't believe you are a hoarder, you need to believe that yourself. Always check what she says with other loved ones, fact check her statements about you with others and ask their opinion, don't let her sow the seeds of doubt in your mind.

    I also don't believe that it is for the best or healthy that she lives with you for her or yourself. As I said it sounds like you need to have a frank conversation with her about what her expectations are from you and what she thinks will happen if she is evicted. Make it clear that she is not welcome to live at your home. It seems as if she wants your help in one hand yet is not prepared to accept it in another. This will put you in a very frustrating position, and it is no wonder your sympathy has run out.

    I hope you manage to sleep well tonight x
  • BitterAndTwisted
    BitterAndTwisted Posts: 22,492
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    I'd be minded to speak to the Council's Housing Department, if they will talk to you. Once things like this are in train, they can be a bit unstoppable. Your mother may have a lot less time to get this sorted (or you do) than she thinks.

    Getting her hair done! And then coming home to that filthy squalor. She's not well and I wonder if you could try to ger her GP involved somehow?
  • short_bird
    short_bird Posts: 3,649
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    Data protection means they may not be willing to speak to anyone other than the tenant, in which case the only info available about the action they will take is what is contained in the conditions of tenancy for her housing provider. That'll have information on tenant responsibilities. (Probably available online) And whatever JoJo's mum decides to pass on from the council chap visit. I'm surprised that he hasn't left a letter, they usually do.
    Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, and call off Christmas.
  • whitewing
    whitewing Posts: 11,852
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    JoJo,

    Don't make yourself ill over this. She does need help but it doesn't have to be you that gives it, and you certainly don't have to do it alone. She may be your mother, but it doesn't sound like she is very kind to you. Get yourself some help with dealing with her/the hoarding.
    :heartsmil When you find people who not only tolerate your quirks but celebrate them with glad cries of "Me too!" be sure to cherish them. Because these weirdos are your true family.
  • splishsplash
    splishsplash Posts: 3,055
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    Hi Jojo
    I have had minimal experience of clean-ups for people suffering from senile squalor syndrome. Not exactly the same as hoarding, but involves hoarding, so a bit similar.

    Clean-ups usually involve very many people over a long period of time, from several different agencies and professions. Almost all projects involve a significant cost, with monies coming from different sources for different aspects of the clean up. These jobs involve not only the physical removal of the hoard and cleaning up, but also dealing with the impact the hoard has had on the structure of the house... which can be extensive. Especially when there's a food hoard, and all that comes with that.

    I think you're at risk of becoming overwhelmed and burned out if you try to tackle this by yourself. I really think you need a lot of help and concrete information before you do any more.

    Why not see if you can phone the council from your mum's, get her to give consent to the minion for you to talk on her behalf, and arrange a meeting for the three of you to see exactly what timeframe is involved and what level of clear out they are looking for (i.e. maybe just the exterior and habitable food prep area, sleep area and bathroom for now). It would be good to clarify exactly what the consequences of non-compliance will be, so you can keep reminding her of these as things unfold and emotions run high over the coming weeks.

    Also really probe them for info regarding funds you can access and see if you can get your mum to agree to a specialist cleaning company coming in for a week - they could really make short work of it and relieve you of a huge amount of work. You'll still have your work cut out for you in terms of continuing the cleaning and helping your mum set up strategies to prevent this starting all over again, and for that, she will need professional help. If she doesn't accept that, then resign yourself to the fact that she will just start hoarding again and don't even attempt to waste your energy trying to get her to change by yourself. You're not going to be able to.

    If no funds or practical help is forthcoming from the council, I would ask at her local church, charities, voluntary bodies etc.

    It sounds like you have a colourful history with your mother, but to be successful at dealing with the hoard, it will be necessary to put this aside - which may be nigh on impossible, or come at a high cost to you emotionally. A 'frail' 78 year old woman's verbal abuse is not going to touch an outsider the way it will wound you, and her physical abuse would would not be an issue from how she presents to the world, from what you say.

    I really think you would be better a little removed from the actual processes involved in the clearing out of the hoard. I wish you well and admire your willingness to involve yourself in this - I think I would be running for the hills :o.
    I'm an adult and I can eat whatever I want whenever I want and I wish someone would take this power from me.
    -Mike Primavera
    .
  • Barneysmom
    Barneysmom Posts: 10,123
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    It's like a game of chess. You move a strategic piece and there's another one put in it's place in the blink of an eye. A long battle ahead.
    Eat properly, drink copious amounts of tea and coffee, and plod on.


    I used to wait for mom to go away for a week's holiday with my stepdad when I was a teenager, then I'd blast the kitchen. Nothing would be left and the whole place would get a dousing in bleach.
    She never bought bleach, she thought (and still does afaik) it's a dangerous chemical.
    Ofcourse a few weeks later it'd be covered in crumbs again and newspapers would be stacked in the corner.
    She's not as bad as she was but I still cringe when I have to go as there's not really anywhere to park your bum, the settee has stacks of mags/mewspapers and fliers on the end where she doesn't sit.

    I'm a bleachaholic. I have a gallon container stored in the bathroom in the cupboard where the boiler lives, and probably 4 bottles of various types of bleach under the sink amongst the bottles of Flash/Dettol etc.(the grotbuster's good :) )
  • GreyQueen
    GreyQueen Posts: 13,008
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    :) Ohh, Jo Jo (((((hugs)))) My own Mum, whom I love to pieces, is somewhat of a hoarder, but nothing like what you've described. However, the short hairs on my nape go up when I read about severe hoarding. I think a lot of us know someone in our own family or circle who has this problem, or have a glimmer of the tenancy ourselves (I have a few issues, fiercely controlled) which make this a wince-making subject.

    I work for a local authority and, if your Mum is reporting accurately that her Council landlord are threatening eviction, there will be a LOT of stuff in writing. To get legal possession of your mother's home, the Council will have to go to court and demonstrate that everything humanly possible has been done to resolve the problem, and has failed. The judge will be have you tried this?, have you tried that? and if they think all possible avenues haven't been exhausted, they won't rule in the Council's favour. Even when council tenants have behaved appallingly, it is very difficult to get legal possession of the home, and the Council landlord will treat court action as the very last resort.

    If the Council does get legal possession, your mother will get a departure date, and if she doesn't leave, they will go back to court and get a warrant of eviction. There can be a long wait until a court officer is available, so while a possession hearing will normally grant possession in 14 days, if the tenant doesn't vacate, the Council will have to go back to court to get a warrant of eviction, which will have to be executed by a court officer and one of them might not be available for several weeks, or even a couple of months (I've known it to take that long).

    The Council will deliver her a letter with the day and time of the scheduled eviction. If she doesn't get out ahead of time, they will literally be on her doorstep with a locksmith, a housing officer (or two), the court officer, perhaps Police (not usual but possible if they suspect there may be a breach of the peace) and put her out of doors and change the locks behind her. Sometimes they allow people half an hour to pack a bag but they can just escort her outside in what she stands up in.

    It's grim but it happens every single week to some poor souls. They will then empty the home, inventory and store the belongings (such as is reasonable, they won't store perishable food or obvious trash) and she will have 1 month to collect them for the storage facility, subject to her paying the costs of removal and storage. If it goes past that, the Council can and will dispose however they see fit.

    The Council will be forbidden to discuss your mother's dealings with them under the Data Protection Act, unless you can persuade her to sign a third party authority ( a simple letter saying I authorise my daughter JoJo to discuss my tenancy) with a signature and date will suffice. They will have to verify the sig against something else they have on file. Under DPA, they can passively receive information from you and give general purpose information about how they would normally proceed in X set of circumstances, but not discuss things specific to your mother. You might also want to look at www.shelter.org.uk to see if you can get some advice.

    Please, hun, be very careful of your own mental and physical well-being at this time. There aren't any easy answers.

    HTH GQ x
    Every increased possession loads us with a new weariness.
    John Ruskin
    Veni, vidi, eradici
    (I came, I saw, I kondo'd)
  • Dustykitten
    Dustykitten Posts: 16,503
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    JoJo

    Hugs sweetie, it's all been said by people far more knowledgeable than I am.

    Be kind to yourself. Try to leave all the emotional baggage of this at her front door and don't take it to your own home.

    Good luck, get support and whilst I'm not a quitter sometimes things are not able to be finished xx
    The birds of sadness may fly overhead but don't let them nest in your hair
  • adelight
    adelight Posts: 2,658 Forumite
    There are some US shows about hoarding which are even worse than ones in the UK, it can get so much worse. People with 1000s of rats living in the walls, spending life savings, no running water or electricity and ferrel dogs etc. I suppose people never see it as a problem or think they'll never get that bad.

    My Grandparents are hoarders but the house is so big (stately home size) and so much of it off limits that it doesn't look too horrific. I don't really want to go into too much detail in case someone happens to recognise them. We know it will never be cleared in their lifetime so we just try to keep the in use rooms clear-ish and safe (not counting the fact that the sheer weight of the stuff could cause some ceilings to collapse) by having a bonfire going the entire time they're on holiday. Can you get her out the house long enough to remove the dangerous items and brutally shift some stuff? Or get some more people involved to do it quickly?
    Living cheap in central London :rotfl:
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