Is this a pyramid?

24

Comments

  • Ted_Hutchinson
    Ted_Hutchinson Posts: 7,142 Forumite
    Kleeneze / forever living products / telecom plus
    are all good ethical companies promoting an opportunity to create a substantial residual income
    Either you haven't read the link provided earlier http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/Forever%20Living.htm or you haven't understood it or you have a very individual understanding of the words "good" and "Ethical" with regards FLP.
    My weight loss following Doktor Dahlqvist' Dietary Program
    Start 23rd Jan 2008 14st 9lbs Current 10st 12lbs
  • And where is the Provenance for that website link?

    It looks like a cheap, tatty website knocked up in five minutes. And further, its only complaints about FLP are that it hits five flags:

    1.Recruitment of participants is unlimited in an endless chain of empowered and motivated recruiters recruiting recruiters.

    So they recruit people. How unusual that a company should attempt to grow its business.

    2. Advancement in a hierarchy of multiple levels of participants is achieved by recruitment, rather than by appointment.

    This is point 1 again worded differently. Bonuses are paid down through all levels of the business both for personal sales and those of your "team". There are NO payments for recruitment.

    3. Significant requirements that participants "pay to play" the game via product purchases. Thus, new recruits are the primary customers.

    Participants are encouraged to try the products yes. How else can you make personal recommendations?

    4. MLM company pays commissions and/or bonuses to at least 5 levels of participants, creating great "leverage" at the top.

    I don't even know what this means. Bonuses are paid on the basis of sales. Just like in any marketing environment.

    5. Most of the payout goes to the upline, rather than to the person selling products, creating excessive incentive to recruit and inadequate incentive to sell products (except to new recruits) – and an extreme concentration of income at the top of a hierarchy (pyramid) of participants.

    There are plenty of sales bonuses and none for recruitment. IF you recruit someone and they sell stuff, they get a bonus and so do you. There is NO bonus for recruitment directly. As for people at the top getting more money, show me a company where that isn't the case.
  • bridiej
    bridiej Posts: 5,775
    Combo Breaker First Post
    Forumite
    Please could we keep on topic, the OP was asking if a specific company was a pyramid seller, not for an argument on the whys and wherefors of pyramid selling.

    Thanks :)

    I just pop in now and then.... :)
    transcribing
  • The rewards to participants of the FLP plan are set out here

    The arguement here isn't is just whether or not FLP a pyramid scheme but whether or not the rewards to those selling the product and those in the various levels of managing those sellers are disproportionate relative to the intrinsic value of the product (bearing in mind there is virtually no published scientific medical evidence supporting the health giving properties of aloe vera)

    It appears that d.o.o.g isn't able to understand the meaning of the five warnings given at my link. I'm sorry that experience will probably his education.
    My weight loss following Doktor Dahlqvist' Dietary Program
    Start 23rd Jan 2008 14st 9lbs Current 10st 12lbs
  • BFG_2
    BFG_2 Posts: 2,022 Forumite
    Aloe vera
    Vitamins
    Self-improvement ebooks
    Plastic tat
    Slimming tablets
    Cleaning products

    What do they all have in common??

    Pennies to make, sold for between 400% to 10,000% mark-up by MLM companies.

    It's the big margins on these 'un-provable benefits' products (mostly) that let everyone share along the food chain.
  • d.o.o.g wrote:
    I understand perfectly the five points in your link.
    But your replies don't give that impression hence my rather patronising reply.

    If we take the first point
    1.Recruitment of participants is unlimited in an endless chain of empowered and motivated recruiters recruiting recruiters.

    So they recruit people. How unusual that a company should attempt to grow its business.
    The point is about the lack of any control system to limit the number of FLP sellers in any area. Everybody living in any particular area could fill in the form and become a FLP agent then who would be the customers. There are as many greedy fools as gullible fools but their internet website enables even the most stupid gullible fool to sign up as an FLP agent. FLP don't care how many people sign up as they will all be persuaded to buy starter packs and keep a stock of expensive overpriced product in the hope of offloading it their friends and neighbours. If new agents were given sole access to particular areas and there were measures to prevent other FLP agents selling in that particular area then things might be different but you appear not to have understood the significance of the words unlimited and endless chain.
    But they are just an opinion offered on a website with no pedigree to give it credence.
    But as each of the points are straightforward common sense which should be comprenhended by most readers no further pedigree is necessary.
    2. Advancement in a hierarchy of multiple levels of participants is achieved by recruitment, rather than by appointment.

    This is point 1 again worded differently. Bonuses are paid down through all levels of the business both for personal sales and those of your "team". There are NO payments for recruitment.
    You appear here to think that the point is suggesting that reward payments are made to those who recruit more agents. That is your misunderstanding and is not stated or implied in the point.
    The point is clearly saying that advancement from individual agent to the next level in the heirachy "assistant manager" is through recruitment of new agents and not by "appointment" The reward for obtaining new agents is increased seniority and a percentage of their sales rather than a specific one off payment.
    3. Significant requirements that participants "pay to play" the game via product purchases. Thus, new recruits are the primary customers.

    Participants are encouraged to try the products yes. How else can you make personal recommendations?
    If the products were any good they could issue samples to their agents to try rather than continually encourage and expect their agents to buy expensive special offers packs.

    I haven't time at the moment to educate you to an understanding of "leverage" or the unfair distribution of profits.

    There are clearly some people who don't see when they are being taken for a ride and who also don't mind taking others for a ride. The purpose of this website is moneysaving and being sensible with your money.

    Buying crap and flogging crap isn't part of the ethos of the site and I don't think any sensible person should encourage it or attempt to justify it.
    My weight loss following Doktor Dahlqvist' Dietary Program
    Start 23rd Jan 2008 14st 9lbs Current 10st 12lbs
  • Forever Living Products. Not a pyramid scheme. End of that discussion.
    Worth looking at as a second income? Yes.
    Is it hard work? Yes - all MLM businesses take work and effort.
    Am I involved in Forever Living? No.
    Are the products value for money? Some of them are yes. Check out the concentration of the products versus 'comparable' products sold on the High Street.
    Does MLM work? Yes.
    For everyone? No.
    BUT PLEASE PEOPLE, GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM CREDIBLE SOURCES (DTI), NOT FROM SOME DISILLUSIONED IDIOTS WHO SET UP WEBSITES TO AIR THEIR PERSONAL GRIEVANCES AND WHINE ABOUT MLM/ NETWORKING. SO IT DIDN'T WORK FOR THEM BIG DEAL! WE'VE ALL LEFT JOBS THAT WEREN'T RIGHT FOR US HAVEN'T WE? AT THE END OF THE DAY MLM IS A BUSINESS THAT WON'T SUIT EVERYONE BUT AT LEAST CHECK THESE THINGS OUT FOR YOURSELVES.
    GET THE FACTS.

    Now can I please have a stepladder so I can get down from this high horse?
    "It is far better I say nothing and let people think I am an idiot than to open my mouth and confirm it beyond any doubt."
  • phingers wrote:
    Forever Living Products. Not a pyramid scheme. End of that discussion.
    That doesn't sound like a rational justification to me.

    Have a look at the 5 points raised an provide some facts to support your statement and we might take you seriously.

    But I have provided the FLP site details so folks can check for themselves. Please note I have no personal axe to grind as I have never used or bought or worked for FLP.

    I am not an idiot either nor am I ethically challenged.

    I have tried to find details of the quantity of active ingredient in their overpriced vitamins from the website but haven't been able to. Perhaps you could provide some facts so we can compare value for money with a reputable supplier.


    Personal Bonus New Distributor Bonus Group Volume Bonus Leadership Bonus Earned Incentive Bonus Jonathan Bonus Profit Sharing Exotic Trips Special Promotio

    Edit: I have now found the product specifications and UK price for FLP supplements. An idea of the rip off pricing FLP are expecting you to obtain from your friends and relatives can be deduced from this example.
    FLP Omega 3 (each capsule contains 225 mg of EPA and 150 mg of DHA) 60 Caps - £21.76 with a recommended dose of 2 daily@36p= 72p a day.
    This compares with Holland & Barret EPA 180 mg DHA 120 mg price 3 daily@6.8p= 20p
    However as all the research I have read suggests a higher dose would be better for you so why not use Omega Juice which provides EPA 900mgDHA 600mg per 5ml dosage. 360ml £4.95=7p daily for twice as much active ingredient.
    My weight loss following Doktor Dahlqvist' Dietary Program
    Start 23rd Jan 2008 14st 9lbs Current 10st 12lbs
  • d.o.o.g
    d.o.o.g Posts: 342 Forumite
    If new agents were given sole access to particular areas and there were measures to prevent other FLP agents selling in that particular area then things might be different but you appear not to have understood the significance of the words unlimited and endless chain.

    Okay, I take your point, but apply common sense and you see the market is far from saturated. All the products are sold by personal recommendation. Each new recruit is recruited by a friend or at the least someone they know. What possible reason would there be for someone to join if they had no customers of their own. The business grows on word of mouth. Everyone has their own friends and so forth.
    But as each of the points are straightforward common sense which should be comprenhended by most readers no further pedigree is necessary.

    Wrong. The points are onesided, unsubstantiated and written (probably) by someone who has tried and failed at MLM. They also smack of a witchhunt.
    You appear here to think that the point is suggesting that reward payments are made to those who recruit more agents. That is your misunderstanding and is not stated or implied in the point.
    The point is clearly saying that advancement from individual agent to the next level in the heirachy "assistant manager" is through recruitment of new agents and not by "appointment" The reward for obtaining new agents is increased seniority and a percentage of their sales rather than a specific one off payment.

    Wrong again. Advancement is by selling product. If you choose to increase your quota by having people working for you then you can, but its all about selling. Not recruitment as the silly website suggests.
    If the products were any good they could issue samples to their agents to try rather than continually encourage and expect their agents to buy expensive special offers packs.

    The only expectation is that people who RECOMMEND the product USE the product. That seems fair to me.
    I haven't time at the moment to educate you to an understanding of "leverage" or the unfair distribution of profits.

    There are clearly some people who don't see when they are being taken for a ride and who also don't mind taking others for a ride. The purpose of this website is moneysaving and being sensible with your money. Buying crap and flogging crap isn't part of the ethos of the site and I don't think any sensible person should encourage it or attempt to justify it.

    I'm glad you don't have the time to be honest.

    This PART of the website is about SMALL BUSINESSES and CHARITIES. FLP is a way into a SMALL BUSINESS.

    Something does not become crap or unethical just because you dislike/distrust it. As for justification, TBH I only hopped on board because of your superior tone. You seemed to be suggesting that because one website says it's so, we should all bow down and obey. Your suggestion that people are not being sensible if they disagree with you is just supercilious nonsense.

    Granted the FLP website does seem to have a lack of info on the product contents, but I think that is more to do with the Personal Recommendation angle that they go for than an attempt to hide the truth. As far as I know the products are genuine if pricey.
  • Wrong. The points are onesided, unsubstantiated and written (probably) by someone who has tried and failed at MLM. They also smack of a witchhunt.
    If they are wrong then I'm sure you can produce argument or evidence to show where. Until you do I think you are wrong.
    Advancement is by selling product. If you choose to increase your quota by having people working for you then you can, but its all about selling. Not recruitment as the silly website suggests.
    From FLP Website.
    Team Marketing
    This is the exciting area of the Marketing Plan that enables you to build a business that can provide you with financial freedom.

    Develop a Team of Distributors and you will receive Group Volume bonuses ranging from 3% to 13%.


    Work with your Team to build leaders and you will receive additional Leadership bonuses ranging from 2% to 6%.

    Examples:


    Develop 2 personally sponsored leaders, each managing their own teams, and you can receive an income in the range of £2000 - £4000 per month.


    5 personally sponsored managing leaders and their teams can earn you £6000 to £9000 per month.


    I'm glad you don't have the time to be honest.
    I can show where you are being less than honest.

    Now you show me where I am being dishonest.
    My weight loss following Doktor Dahlqvist' Dietary Program
    Start 23rd Jan 2008 14st 9lbs Current 10st 12lbs
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