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WildFennel
Posts: 5 Forumite
We are FTB’s buying a 4 bed house for £330K, with the 4th bed in the loft – (it was advertised as a 4-bed). It has a rear extension and an outbuilding.
Local Authority searches have only showed that planning for the loft was agreed in 1988 by previous owners, and not the vendors, and so we are preparing for the fact that they may not have any paperwork, building regs, completion certificate etc to show that the work complies or is structurally sound. The reason we are a bit sceptical is because we have been informed that there is no paperwork for the rear kitchen or the outbuilding which the vendors built in the last 10yrs, and so our solicitor says that the vendors are willing to provide indemnity cover. We are not so worried about the rear extension or the outbuilding and understand that the indemnity should cover any enforcement from the council regarding these, but are conscious that is a little shady that the vendors didn’t get this properly approved (when they said they had).
Anyhow our main concern is with the loft conversion - with building regs changing so much over the years, we understand that if there are no papers for the 4th bedroom, to get the planning people in may raise a whole load of issues we (or the vendors) probably don’t want to get tangled up in.
So to get to my question - will it be sufficient to get a structural engineer in to confirm that the room is habitable, and if so, will this then be sufficient for prospective buyers should we decide to sell in 5/10 years time?
If it is not structurally sound, then we have accepted that we will be buying a 3-bed house with a posh attic, but are not willing to pay 4-bed prices and accept that if vendors are not willing to reduce the price we will have to walk away from it. But if they are willing to re-negotiate I understand that it may cost £25 - 30K to put this attic right – so would it be right to ask for a £25-30K reduction in the price of the house?
Sorry for the huge rant, i’m just trying to get it right in my head and be prepared for whatever comes next. Our solictor is already suggesting we come in with passports/NI numbers etc and agree draft contract etc etc, but i'm reluctant to even speak with them until I have in writing what paperwork the vendors have/have not.
Hope you can advise
Local Authority searches have only showed that planning for the loft was agreed in 1988 by previous owners, and not the vendors, and so we are preparing for the fact that they may not have any paperwork, building regs, completion certificate etc to show that the work complies or is structurally sound. The reason we are a bit sceptical is because we have been informed that there is no paperwork for the rear kitchen or the outbuilding which the vendors built in the last 10yrs, and so our solicitor says that the vendors are willing to provide indemnity cover. We are not so worried about the rear extension or the outbuilding and understand that the indemnity should cover any enforcement from the council regarding these, but are conscious that is a little shady that the vendors didn’t get this properly approved (when they said they had).
Anyhow our main concern is with the loft conversion - with building regs changing so much over the years, we understand that if there are no papers for the 4th bedroom, to get the planning people in may raise a whole load of issues we (or the vendors) probably don’t want to get tangled up in.
So to get to my question - will it be sufficient to get a structural engineer in to confirm that the room is habitable, and if so, will this then be sufficient for prospective buyers should we decide to sell in 5/10 years time?
If it is not structurally sound, then we have accepted that we will be buying a 3-bed house with a posh attic, but are not willing to pay 4-bed prices and accept that if vendors are not willing to reduce the price we will have to walk away from it. But if they are willing to re-negotiate I understand that it may cost £25 - 30K to put this attic right – so would it be right to ask for a £25-30K reduction in the price of the house?
Sorry for the huge rant, i’m just trying to get it right in my head and be prepared for whatever comes next. Our solictor is already suggesting we come in with passports/NI numbers etc and agree draft contract etc etc, but i'm reluctant to even speak with them until I have in writing what paperwork the vendors have/have not.
Hope you can advise
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Comments
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I have limited knowledge of the subject, but my understanding was that if the "4th" bedroom was contained either within an attic conversion or extension which did / does not have Building Regs approval, it could not be marketed as being a 4 bed property?
My advice would be to give the local council Building Control a phone call and ask for their advice on the matter - they are usually very helpful and willing to assist.
Hope this helps.My debts at 11th April 2011:
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I'm on the road! :T0 -
I would wait for other posters to come along before doing this. I don't think you can get indemnity insurance if you have contacted them, so you this could remove an option.
My advice would be to give the local council Building Control a phone call and ask for their advice on the matter - they are usually very helpful and willing to assist.
There are two issues here that you need to address - the planning people taking some action and whether the work in the loft has been done correctly.0 -
Thanks tleefox, So are you saying that if the building is structurally safe, but that there are no building regs, then it should not be sold as a 4-bed?0
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You can't definitively say that no building regs approval implies a room can't be counted as a bedroom. If I'm buying a house built before the building regs were introduced, no part of it will have building regs approval. If the loft conversion was done in the late 1980s, the building regs were in force (I think they were introduced in 1984) but my uninformed inexpert gut feeling would be that the chance of enforcement action is nil.
The other question is whether it's structurally sound, and whether it is safe in other respects. As it's been up for more than 20 years it's unlikely to be structurally deficient to any great extent (though that's not to say there isn't a small chance it'll all fall down tomorrow). The other issue is whether it is safe in some circumstance that hasn't yet arisen e.g. how will it perform in a fire?
One thing's for sure, I wouldn't buy it without asking a reputable surveyor to give it a thorough going over!0 -
The Building Regs are about much more than structural stability and a structural engineer will not be able to tell you if a room is habitable. What about means of escape in case of fire? spread of fire? access for emergency services? accoustics? insulation? quality of glazing? stairs? drainage?
If there are no Building Regs then I would not consider this a 4 bed house. I would not want my loved ones sleeping up there. So many people throw up cheap, dodgy extensions. Don't touch them with a barge pole - especially for £330k!0 -
I think you need to get legal advice about the whole matter and trying to check it out on your own may not be the best way to go.
If they won't reduce their price then you could contact the local building control to ask about it and your solicitors can then tell the sellers that is what you have done. Nobody with a mortgage could touch it then without them sorting it out properly!RICHARD WEBSTER
As a retired conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful assuming any properties concerned are in England/Wales but I accept no liability for it.0 -
DannyboyMidlands wrote: »The Building Regs are about much more than structural stability and a structural engineer will not be able to tell you if a room is habitable. What about means of escape in case of fire? spread of fire? access for emergency services? accoustics? insulation? quality of glazing? stairs? drainage?
If there are no Building Regs then I would not consider this a 4 bed house. I would not want my loved ones sleeping up there. So many people throw up cheap, dodgy extensions. Don't touch them with a barge pole - especially for £330k!
I'd have to agree with this - the building regs on lofts cover so much more than just structural concerns (although they are an important part!) My concerns would be that if the loft conversion was installed after the regs came into force then there ought to be some paperwork confirming compliance - and if there isn't, why not? The temptation would be to assume it was done on the cheap and is best case, shoddy, worst case dangerous.
And I was under the impression that unless building regs compliance for new loft rooms (ie an addition to the original house) could be proved, then it doesn't count as a bedroom, ie making this a 3 bed rather than a 4 bed house?0 -
It's not just the loft that could be dangerous.
The ground floor rooms won't be very safe if the roof collapses or the walls bow out. Which just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it never will.
To be honest, unless you really want this house and are willing to spend money on a full structural engineer's survey and indemnity insurance and get it at a really good price, I'd be walking away. It's not like it's a seller's market at the moment.A kind word lasts a minute, a skelped erse is sair for a day.0 -
Richard_Webster wrote: »If they won't reduce their price then you could contact the local building control to ask about it and your solicitors can then tell the sellers that is what you have done. Nobody with a mortgage could touch it then without them sorting it out properly!
Isn't that a bit immoral though? Can't I just suggest to them that they approach Building Control to get it sorted?0 -
Exactly the same thing happened to me. My victorian flat was marketed as a 2 bed but during the buying process it transpired that the loft room didn't meet with building regulations and from then on was referred to as a 1 bed flat. As I loved the flat, I bought it anyway. I used the 'loft room' as a spare room for 5 years with no problems and then saved up enough money to get the builders in to put the loft right (and add a mansard extention and ensuite).
The only word of caution... I naively thought that having a basic loft conversion already there would save me money but it probably added to the cost. During my initial research and getting quotes from various builders, i had mixed advice on whether the stairs would need to be repositioned or not. The stairs were too steep and not enough head height in one place so had to be repositioned which then involved moving a wall downstairs.
It's all worth it as I now have an amazing bedroom and shower room and I have certificates to prove it's all building regulations compliant so it's officically a 2 bedroom flat!0
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