Petrol or Diesel?

[tux130582]

Hello,

I currently drive a Citroen Saxo, and have done for the past 7 or 8 years, now is the time to change the car and im looking for something bigger,

My favourite car is in my budget etc is a Saab 9-3 with the current petrol prices should I go for a diesel or a petrol model?

They come in the following

1.9TDI
2.2 TDI

1.8T Petrol
2.0T Petrol

Many thanks for your help, also any other car recommendations of the same car size appreciated. I am looking to buy used, about 3 or 4 years old

thanks

[vikingaero]

How many miles do you do a year?

Glass's Guide said that it takes 7 years to recoup the extra outlay of a diesel if you only travel average miles (I take that as 10 to 12k per annum).

Saab Petrol Turbos are quite thirsty, I used to own a 9-3, and I would take 5-10mpg off the official figures to get an accurate mpg figure. That said Saabs are good value secondhand.

[moonrakerz]

A lot of trouble with dual mass flywheels is now being reported on diesels, pricey to fix.

[Conor]

Mine is on 106000 miles and still OK.

[save-a-lot]

How many miles do you do a year?

Glass's Guide said that it takes 7 years to recoup the extra outlay of a diesel if you only travel average miles (I take that as 10 to 12k per annum).

Totally agree with the recouping your investment. You have to do alot of miles to break-even when buying a deisel especially when considering the price of diesel too

[alanrowell]

These days the only advantage of a diesel is that a full tank will give you a bigger range without having to refill

[AdrianHi]

Totally agree with the recouping your investment. You have to do alot of miles to break-even when buying a deisel especially when considering the price of diesel too

It's all none sense this, what are Glasses saying?
Lets say a diesel car list price on the road is £1500 higher than the petrol. Are they saying it takes X thousand miles to recoup £1500 in fuel savings?
That's not the right way to measure the difference in cost because that diesel car will sell (in current market conditions) for more in the used car market than for the petrol so the only costs you have to make up for in fuel savings the the cost of financing the extra £1500 to get the use of the diesel car until you sell it and get some of your money back.
I recently calculated the petrol vs. diesel cost question properly for someone on this forum a couple of weeks back. They were considering a new Mondeo on which they could get a £3500 discount on (not everyone has access to this discount). They did 12,000 miles a year. It turns out that 12,000 a year annual mileage is the break even point so the advice is pick the one you like the best. In this case they decided not to believe that the residual value % of the petrol and diesel would be the same in 3 years time (it's not for any other car, so why should the Mondeo buck this trend?) and went for the diesel.
The answer to the petrol vs. diesel which is best question depends on the cars and engines, how many miles a year you do, how long you will have the car and even your own personal financial circumstances (i.e. what does it cost you to have an extra £1500 tied up in a car not pay off debts or invested?).
There is no simple "you need to do x miles in total or per year" answer to the question.
The other problem is, over the next 3 years the right answer to the question might change if the used car buyer decides diesel fuel is actually too expensive to be worth it and changes buying habits to petrol cars.

To answer the original question, if you do the average 12,000 miles a year What Car calculates the following
1.9TDI Airflow total cost over 3 years (depreciation, fuel etc.): £17,464
1.8t Airflow: £19,477
or you could get:
BMW 318d SE total cost over 3 years: £17,093
Audi A4 2.0TDI SE: £15,982
Audi A4 1.8T SE £17,565
I have not looked up the list price of these cars because it's not relevant to the answer.
What car do not include in this calculation what it costs you in finance charges or lost interest on cash tied up in the car, so the real cost to you is probably higher than this.

The question is, what is your budget exactly?
Saying I can buy a car list price up to £X is not that relevant to what it will actually cost you.

[Smi1er]

It won't take 7 years to recoup the additional expence. When you come to sell a Diesel will get more than a Petrol.

[AdrianHi]

It's all none sense this, what are Glasses saying?
Lets say a diesel car list price on the road is £1500 higher than the petrol. Are they saying it takes X thousand miles to recoup £1500 in fuel savings?
That's not the right way to measure the difference in cost because that diesel car will sell (in current market conditions) for more in the used car market than for the petrol so the only costs you have to make up for in fuel savings the the cost of financing the extra £1500 to get the use of the diesel car until you sell it and get some of your money back.
I recently calculated the petrol vs. diesel cost question properly for someone on this forum a couple of weeks back. They were considering a new Mondeo on which they could get a £3500 discount on (not everyone has access to this discount). They did 12,000 miles a year. It turns out that 12,000 a year annual mileage is the break even point so the advice is pick the one you like the best. In this case they decided not to believe that the residual value % of the petrol and diesel would be the same in 3 years time (it's not for any other car, so why should the Mondeo buck this trend?) and went for the diesel.
The answer to the petrol vs. diesel which is best question depends on the cars and engines, how many miles a year you do, how long you will have the car and even your own personal financial circumstances (i.e. what does it cost you to have an extra £1500 tied up in a car not pay off debts or invested?).
There is no simple "you need to do x miles in total or per year" answer to the question.
The other problem is, over the next 3 years the right answer to the question might change if the used car buyer decides diesel fuel is actually too expensive to be worth it and changes buying habits to petrol cars.

To answer the original question, if you do the average 12,000 miles a year What Car calculates the following
1.9TDI Airflow total cost over 3 years (depreciation, fuel etc.): £17,464
1.8t Airflow: £19,477
or you could get:
BMW 318d SE total cost over 3 years: £17,093
Audi A4 2.0TDI SE: £15,982
Audi A4 1.8T SE £17,565
I have not looked up the list price of these cars because it's not relevant to the answer.
What car do not include in this calculation what it costs you in finance charges or lost interest on cash tied up in the car, so the real cost to you is probably higher than this.

The question is, what is your budget exactly?
Saying I can buy a car list price up to £X is not that relevant to what it will actually cost you.

Forgot to add
BMW 318i SE over 3 years £16,416
This one bucks the diesel is cheaper trend due to "efficient dynamics" resulting in a petrol engine that delivers 150bhp, 0-62 in 9.2 seconds and 47mpg. The diesel 318d is over 58mpg but a lot more expensive to buy.

[adjests]

I woudl agree with adrianHi.

One other thing to factor into the equation is the annual RFL cost and insurance bandings.

Recent changes mean that the cost is now based on the emissions. The difference between petrol and diesel models can be significant. Take for eample the the two models below:

CO2 2008-09 2009-10

BMW 318i Petrol 196 210.00 260.00
BMW 320D Diesel 153 145.00 150.00

With respect to iinsurance - I found that our quote for the petrol model was £100 higher than the diesel.

We bought the 320D - Payback on the diesel was 3.5 years which is good considering we only do 7000 miles a year and usually change cars every 10 years.

[AdrianHi]

I woudl agree with adrianHi.

One other thing to factor into the equation is the annual RFL cost and insurance bandings.

Recent changes mean that the cost is now based on the emissions. The difference between petrol and diesel models can be significant. Take for eample the the two models below:

CO2 2008-09 2009-10

BMW 318i Petrol 196 210.00 260.00
BMW 320D Diesel 153 145.00 150.00

With respect to iinsurance - I found that our quote for the petrol model was £100 higher than the diesel.

We bought the 320D - Payback on the diesel was 3.5 years which is good considering we only do 7000 miles a year and usually change cars every 10 years.
I remember doing these sums too and worked out that fuel savings would recoup the extra list price for the 320d over the 320i after that sort of mileage, but of course you don't have to do any miles at all on an older 320d over 320i for the diesel to be cheaper. It's only with the September 2007 onwards efficient dynamics models the rules change and there is little difference between them.

While we should consider the cost of tax disks and insurance it's important to keep this cost in perspective. Is £50-£100 a year one way or the other really that important on a car that's going to take £17,000 out of your pocket over 3 years? No, of course not.
Something to keep in mind if the prospect of £400+ a year bothers anyone on their older cars, it's not much compared to the total outgoings for any car - even if it is unfair.

[tux130582]

thanks for the replies heres a few answers to the questions....

I do about 6000 miles a year so less than average I guess, but I am buying it to keep for another 7 or so years, and buy then I will have move house with partner so in effect we would be sharing the car in a year or twos time.

Budget is around £8000 as a maximum dont have any debt, in fact have 25k in the bank which is savings for a house deposit,

what does everyone think? what are the dual mass flywheels? and how expensive is it likely to be? any other car recommendations within the budget and age?

thanks

[AdrianHi]

thanks for the replies heres a few answers to the questions....

I do about 6000 miles a year so less than average I guess, but I am buying it to keep for another 7 or so years, and buy then I will have move house with partner so in effect we would be sharing the car in a year or twos time.

Budget is around £8000 as a maximum dont have any debt, in fact have 25k in the bank which is savings for a house deposit,

what does everyone think? what are the dual mass flywheels? and how expensive is it likely to be? any other car recommendations within the budget and age?

thanks

The flywheels thing comes from a recent Honest John article in the Telegraph. I've been following a car enthusiast forum for over two years now hearing about all sorts of issues that can affect diesels with all the emissions control gubbins on board that can cause problems, especially for diesel's driven a lot around town on short trips, instead of out on the open road where they belong.

Now we know you are buying used and doing quite low miles, the heavier depreciation of the petrol car works more in your favour. Those turbo Saab's are thirsty and will be hard to sell on in the current climate.
If your thinking Saab you probably want a bit of style and interest in the car, so I guess the very worthy but dull Skoda Octavia is not going to cut it for you unless you look at the vRS model.
I'd suggest putting £8K into a 2 year old (a bit of warranty left) Mazda 6 2.0 petrol TS or TS2. £8K should buy you the facelifted model with much better quality materials used in the interior than the early 6's. Stylish and sporty with a really interesting raspy exhaust note, not too thirsty and frankly a much more interesting interior than the rather flaccid Saab. The 6 is also fun to drive, you can chuck it about down a twisty road and it manages to appeal very well to male and female drivers / owners. My wife has one ;)

[save-a-lot]

It's all none sense this, what are Glasses saying?

I was also considering the fact that deisels tend to need more services - I have known service interval of 6000 miles, the cost of diesel is more, and there are petrol cars that will do, or almost do similar mileages per gallon

[daveyjp]

I was also considering the fact that deisels tend to need more services - I have known service interval of 6000 miles, the cost of diesel is more, and there are petrol cars that will do, or almost do similar mileages per gallon

Modern diesels need less servicing - 18,000+ for mine - petrol equiavalent is about 12,000.

Some petrol cars have dual mass flywheels.

6,000 miles a year is petrol everytime. Turbo diesels need regular hot running to prevent carbon build up in the turbos - not cheap to fix.

[Smi1er]

I was also considering the fact that deisels tend to need more services

My TD needs a service every 20,000 miles;)

[tux130582]

does anyone know how accurate this is?

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/Summary.aspx?model=780&page=3


some of the diesels do more than 50 per gallon and others only 35! same size of engine!

at the moment according to this site im only getting 36 per gallon, so I presume that a petrol maybe best for me with the cost of diesel being more?

Also having never owned a newer car what is the situation with the tax it looks like some of the diesel options will only be £120 per year which is less than I pay now on my 1.6 saxo!

thansk for the replies i will now look into the Rs Skoda and mazda 6. I also like the ford mondeo ST TDCI is this also a thirsty model?

[tux130582]

ive since looked up all the cars, my fav second choice is the ST TDCI mondeo which is a 2.2 diesel and according to the guide does 46 mpg which is 10 more than the saxo, so should work out the same running costs with the extra cost of diesel. Does anyone know anything about these cars? At the moment they seem a bit out of my 8000 budget with the lowest in a 40 mile radius of Bristol being 9500!!!!!

[AdrianHi]

My BMW 320d has condition based servicing, first oil service at 19,000 miles costing £138 (expensive sythetic oil which means you don't get carbon build on on turbo components etc.). Some people doing more motorway miles will get over 22,000 miles before the first oil service is needed.

tux130582
Don't kid your self the Saxo and Mondeo will have the same running costs, they might have the same fueling costs, but depreciation and other costs are going to be different (higher) on the Mondeo.

Earlier this evening using a few PetrolPrices.com historic figures I did a little projection on where the cost of fueling is going. Most diesels do around 25% to 30% more mpg than petrols, but the price of diesel has been rising a lot quicker than petrol. At the current rate of increases the cost of fueling a 58mpg BMW 320d (diesel) is going to rise and match the 47mpg BMW 320i (petrol) in around 6 to 8 months from now.
:eek:

[tux130582]

thanks for the replies, its much appreciated, although confusing.

I would just like a car that looks good and is bigger than my current car. I bought the saxo when i was 19 im 26 now and too old for it and big for it!

Im not keen on the Skoda, or the Mazda 6, Audi A4 and BMW are too expensive, the lexus 200 only does 26 mpg!!!! the main cars in my price range i like are the saab 9-3 and the tdci mondeo...any other suggestions? If i was to choose a saab i presume it should be a petrol one? The inititial cost might not be a massive deal (in terms of depreciation) as i may beable to get a friend car dealer to get me one from auction (trade price) i find it strange that models with the same engine size give such huge MPG differences!

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...del=780&page=3

[AdrianHi]

thanks for the replies, its much appreciated, although confusing.

I would just like a car that looks good and is bigger than my current car. I bought the saxo when i was 19 im 26 now and too old for it and big for it!

Im not keen on the Skoda, or the Mazda 6, Audi A4 and BMW are too expensive, the lexus 200 only does 26 mpg!!!! the main cars in my price range i like are the saab 9-3 and the tdci mondeo...any other suggestions? If i was to choose a saab i presume it should be a petrol one? The inititial cost might not be a massive deal (in terms of depreciation) as i may beable to get a friend car dealer to get me one from auction (trade price) i find it strange that models with the same engine size give such huge MPG differences!

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/...del=780&page=3
That link does not work.
When looking at turbo diesels and turbo charged cars in general the engine size (cubic capacity) becomes largely irrelevant.
If looking at Saab diesels be aware that the 2.2d is an older, noisier, slower and thirstier engine. The 1.9TiD (from Fiat) is a much better engine, quicker, quieter and more economical.

Your are also looking at an age of car where the CO2 emissions started to make a difference to the tax company car users paid and this is around the time new emissions standards came in. So it is no surprise you see a raft of engine modifications improving performance, mpg and emissions.

It is a bit confusing, partly because the answer to the petrol / diesel which is cheapest question is likely to be different in a matter of months. You mileage says petrol and petrol may well become a cheaper way to fuel a car over the next year. Better to pick what you like best, that way even if it turns out to be the slightly more expensive option at least your enjoying the car more.

Out of Mondeo and 9-3 the Mondeo will be more fun to drive. Neither of these cars are winning any reliability awards. My £8K would go on the Mazda 6 as said or an older (probably 6 or 7 year old) BMW 3 or 5 series which is depreciating so slowly by that age that it's not more expensive than the other options in the long run, even if the fuelling it is a bit more expensive.