Brake line material.

[tomstickland]

I'm replacing some corroded brake lines on my car.

I've done some research on the net.
Most people seem to use Kunifer, which is "90-10 Copper-Nickel".

However, I found that the best stuff to use is called Bundy tubing.
I've found that Pirtek stock this.

Does anyone have experience of the various materials? They're both sold by automotive suppliers for use on brake lines.

[BillScarab]

I've used kunifer in the past, it's easy to use and seems to wrok well. If you're going to the trouble of replacing the brake pipes it might be a good idea to fit braided steel hoses as well.

Looking at Bundy Tubing on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_tube) I'd stick with the Kunifer, the Bundy tubing is basically steel so it will rot again.

I'm guessing the copper pipe will be easier for a home mechanic to bend as well. Have you got a brake pipe flaring kit as you will need one as well.

[tomstickland]

Wiki

A 1969 study by the SAE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Automotive_Engineers) recommended the replacement of Bundy tube with 90-10 copper-nickel alloy UNS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_numbering_system) C70600 (Kunifer pipe) because of corrosion concerns.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_tube#cite_note-0) Kunifer pipe has since been adopted by European automakers Volvo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo), Rolls-Royce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_%28car%29), Lotus Cars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Cars), Aston-Martin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston-Martin), Porsche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche), and Audi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_tube#cite_note-1) Bundy pipe retains the advantage higher rigidity, which means less volume expansion under pressure.
The Bundy Tubing Company, started in the USA, was bought in the 1950s by what is now the British company TI Automotive (see


From what I've looked at, there is copper based Bundy tubing. Quite confusing. I assume that the original article I was looking at meant the Steel tube when they called it "Bundy" tubing.


Yes, I'm going to buy a flaring kit.

[Conor]

I'd not choose pure copper either as it can crack from vibration.

[tomstickland]

Yes, I've been reading about it.
Kurnifer is a Copper-Nickel alloy.

[goldspanners]

and buying anything from pirtek will usually be much more expensive than thier rivals.
try hydrasun, dunlop hiflex, stauff or even an independant hose company who may be able to supply the same thing cheaper.

[anewman]

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but seems as appropriate a one as any. Can anyone recommend a good cheap brake pipe flaring kit? And where can one buy a roll of brake pipe and union nuts - and determine the correct dimensions of each for a car?

[in2deep]

Buy kunifer and nothing else.
You can buy it on a 20 or 25 foot rolls from any motor factor, or ask at your local garage to get you a roll.
As for a flaring kit. you get what you pay for.

[anewman]

So would Sealey AK506 pipe flaring kit for £27.59 delivered available here http://www.pvrdirect.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?catref=AK506 be a waste of time?

[tomstickland]

I'm going to buy a kit from my local independant tool shop, but Machine Mart is an option.

[tomstickland]

Yes, I've decided to buy what everyone else buys - Kunifer from my local motor factors.

[steveo3002]

So would Sealey AK506 pipe flaring kit for £27.59 delivered available here http://www.pvrdirect.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?catref=AK506 be a waste of time?


that sealey one is just rebranded chinese tat , same as any accessory shop,ebay or market will sell...you might save a few quid if you shop around but its not a bad price

conisder it the bare minimum to get flares done..theyre not brilliant but they get it done(i use one lol)...proper vice mounted ones are the way to go but theyre nearer £100

the local motor factors will sell the pipe by the roll and have a box of ends you can match up ..infact they usualy make pipes for £5-10 each so that maybe cheaper if you just need a few

[BillScarab]

I think this (http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cht172-automotive-pipe-flaring-kit/path/automotive-tools) is the one I bought (it was a few years ago though). While I agree it's generally worth buying good tools most DIY people won't use a flaring kit that often so personally I don't think it's worth going mad on a really expensive kit.

I can't for the life of me remember where I got the unions from, probably from a Land Rover specialist as that what I was replacing the pipes on.

[djheath]

Just to stick my nose in!

I got this kit:
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cht172-automotive-pipe-flaring-kit/path/automotive-tools
And found it arwful. The flares were all wonky and I couldn't get a decent shaped double flare.
I ended up buying one of these from frosts
http://www.frost.co.uk/images/product_Images/8022.jpg


This was very good.

I got the unions from ebay I think pretty cheap!

[cyclonebri1]

I'd not choose pure copper either as it can crack from vibration.

Exactly right thats why they put the nickel content in as the copper alone work hardens under vibration

[tomstickland]

I was quite surprised when the chap at the motor factors brought pure copper tube down. The other guy then said "no, he want's Kurnifer". So they still sell Copper.

[BillScarab]

I didn't realise you could get pure copper, I thought all "copper" brake pipe was Kunifer.

[cyclonebri1]

I didn't realise you could get pure copper, I thought all "copper" brake pipe was Kunifer.


You can get copper tube in all the car and comercial sizes but it isn't designed for that use hence previous answers.

It is both cheaper and often "borrowed" from work so does get used. Probably get away with it and it will pass an MOT, but even so not the preferred/safe option.;)

[alastairq]

I have a really old version of the Clarke flairing tool......I have usually got good results from it, but it is sensitive to having the correct amount of pipe protruding.

[in2deep]

Cheap ones can make a poor end especialy on a double flare.

Alastairq have i seen you on the PC site.??;)

[cyclonebri1]

I have a really old version of the Clarke flairing tool......I have usually got good results from it, but it is sensitive to having the correct amount of pipe protruding.

I too have one of those, probably 25 years old now, still more than adequate for the limited home use it gets;)

[alastairq]

Cheap ones can make a poor end especialy on a double flare.

Alastairq have i seen you on the PC site.??;)

oh most probably...but not of late....frying too many fish at the moment

[tomstickland]

Quick question about flaring - I bought the Clarke kit from Machine Mart and used to put single flares on the end of the correct diameter Kurnifer pipe (3/16th I think). All the unions have done up tight, but I'm not going to be able to pressure test it until the whole car is back together. So I'm just checking that I put the correct flares on.

[cyclonebri1]

Quick question about flaring - I bought the Clarke kit from Machine Mart and used to put single flares on the end of the correct diameter Kurnifer pipe (3/16th I think). All the unions have done up tight, but I'm not going to be able to pressure test it until the whole car is back together. So I'm just checking that I put the correct flares on.

You need to replace the old pipe with a new one with the same flare, either single or double, as it originally had. It's all down to the type of fittings used, not your preference for one or the others. Check them carefully before use,;) ;) ;)

[tomstickland]

I know that it's not a matter of preference.

The original pipes were factory formed and had very deep "arrowheads" formed on the end of the pipe - about 2mm deep even at the edges. There's no way that the flaring kit was going to replicate that.

I've put it all back together now and tested it and no leaks.

[cyclonebri1]

Not quite sure what you mean by that but the only 2 types of flare produced by hand held units are the single flare, where the end is formed into a barrel so that one side is pressed into the concave part of the fitting by the nut.

The other, the double flare is basically the same but as a second process the open end of the pipe is then turned in on itself effectively doubling the wall thickness and forming a concave end that seals against convex ended fittings. As long as what you have done is very similar to the original you should be ok but do check carefully,;)

[tomstickland]

I've checked on the BMW E30 forum and others have done it the way I have and had no problems.

[cyclonebri1]

:question: :question: :question: :question: Sorry Tom, you've lost me. Could be that the arrow head head you mention is just a compression mark left on the pipe after manufacture, this would be flatened out during fitting. You can find both single and double flared ends on the same car tho. Only trying to help.

[tomstickland]

There's no way that a flaring kit could ever replicate the shape of the original pipes.
The basic pipe is about 5mm diameter. At the ends, the original BMW pipes step out to about 12mm diameter. This is a straight bore for about 2mm down the pipe, it is then tapered in. ie: in cross section the end of the pipe is like a thick arrowhead.

The Kurnifer pipe is about 5mm diameter, and the flared portion splays out to about 7mm diameter. ie: very different shape from the original pipes.

However, plenty of people have used the same materials and kit as me and have had no problems.

[anewman]

So is the Clarke flaring kit adequate to use with kunifer pipe?

Searching the net there's plenty of people with bad things to say about the Clarke flaring kit. Most people seem to recommend a Sykes Pickavant flaremaster kit, but the cheapest I can find one for is £103. But £20 for the Clarke one would be better if it gets the job done.

Just about to replace my master cylinder, so may as well replace any brake pipes that don't look too happy at the same time, rather than wait till MOT time and have to bleed the brakes again.

I once paid a garage £30 to replace a short brake pipe :eek:

[cyclonebri1]

The Clarke one is fine, mines donkeys years old and for the occaisional use it gets is more than adequate.
Of course the Sykes is a far better professional bit of kit, but it's all about justification, the simpler types are just a bit more fiddly;) ;) ;)

[anewman]

The Clarke one is fine, mines donkeys years old and for the occaisional use it gets is more than adequate.
Of course the Sykes is a far better professional bit of kit, but it's all about justification, the simpler types are just a bit more fiddly;) ;) ;)

Have to wonder if the old one is better than the new ones :D Guess it's worth a try and bit of practice on a short bit of pipe anyway. Just want to avoid the "doh" moment when the tool doesn't do what expected and realise it could have been money put towards a better tool.

[BillScarab]

I've used a clarke one with Kunifer without problems, it's a few years old but looks the same as the one in the current pictures. If you're only going to be using it once or very occassionally it's not worth investign in a really expensive one. Save the money and put it towards tools you use regularly like good spanners or a really good socket set.

[anewman]

I can highly recommend against Machine Mart. What a waste of time. All the packs of pipe flarers opened and guess which of the dies were all missing :rolleyes: Ordered this from here instead as all these things appear to be the same anyway and delivery is free http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.php/sn/AK506

[tomstickland]

Well, I used the Machine Mart item and it's all turned out fine.

[cyclonebri1]

As others have said the basic type is available from many suppiers under different brands, I think mine was one of the earliet and is branded Kamasa.

Glad it's not just me that falls out with Machine Mart, I find thier attitude and customer service in my 2 local shops to be diabolicle, had several run ins :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

When you get a complete one I'm sure you'll find it's fine.