Diesel or LPG ?

[djt100]

Hi,
Looking for some advise on this? I'm after replacing my car with something econiomical, I'll Mainly be using it for the commute to work and back 40 miles each way about 80% on the motorways. Have between £3000 and £4000 to spend.
I'm guessing diesel or LPG will be the most economical ways to go but wondered does anyone do a similar commute, what sort of car's do you have what mpg do you get?

Currently thinking of a Clio Diesel 1.5 dci 80 mainly due to the £35 a year tax. But Very much opening to all your suggestions and experiences .

Thanks Del.

P.S.
Any motor dealers out there who can give me an idea of P/X value, 1998/S Volvo C70 T5 GT, 94k, FSH

[AdrianHi]

For most people diesel will be the answer if for no other reason than getting a supply of fuel. I thought about LPG but there is no where within 20 minutes of home that I can buy it.

Asking what kind of fuel consumption people get will not tell you anything useful. I could tell you that I get somewhere between 37mpg and 56mpg on my car, which is 100% true, really depends on the trip I'm driving. On my day to day commute it is 46mpg. How far short of the official EU MPG figures do you fall with your current car? 10%? Taking the official figures minus 10% is probably a fair guide for other cars, but then I used to get bang on for petrols cars and fall short on diesels.... no telling.
Used Clio for £4,000 a good bet, just don't buy one new, super expensive due to steep depreciation retaining only 33% at 3 years old. You will never save enough fuel or tax to offset that. If you are buying newer, or even at £4,000 a Skoda Fabia is the similar sized car that holds it's value best and comes out highly rated in consumer surveys (JD Powers etc.), there is a 1.4TDI in the range now at 70+ MPG (official figures) and £35 tax disk.

Is this really the right car after that comfy Volvo you have now?

[djt100]

Thanks for the reply, Clio looked to be a good bet as the spec is really high on them, I had thought about the fabia as but they end to be holding the money a bit to much for me to afford one with resonable miles on. As for a change from the Volvo, the volvo is great and officially it does 26mpg... But i've never seen more than 18 on it unless i'm on a run..and then only 22-23.but i'm changing jobs form working round the corner to 40 miles away, So happy to sacrafice in the name of saving money...

[avantra]

To go LPG you should really get an original LPG model made by the car maker.
These are far and few between, a converted petrol to LPG might be a bit of a hit and miss as some LPG conversion were done on cars with valve seats that can't take the extra heat involves in burning LPG (dead engine for u and me).

If you drive say 220 days per year (20 working days per month roughly X11 month,taking in to account one month for holidays etc') and looking at car models that do the equivalent of 65 mpg for less than £4k than there is really only one design to go for: Toyota Aygo/Citroen C1/ Pug 107.
The petrol 1.0 will do something along the 60 to 65 mpg while the diesel will do similar number.
At the moment petrol is £1.13 per 1 litre and Diesel is £1.22/litre so if you do 220 days x 80 miles = 17600 miles than you can see that you will save
17600 \ 65(mpg) x 5.13 (1 UK gallon of petrol) = £1389
17600\65 (mpg) x 5.53 (1 UK gallon of diesel) = £1497

This is very small saving of £108 per year so the deciding factor should be the price you pay for the car and the ongoing maintenance which is cheaper when you buy the 1.0 litre petrol variant of this great trio.

[Tucker]

To decide if LPG is an option, check what availability you have locally and on your commute, here (http://www.go-autogas.com/?gclid=CKOb6viY-5ICFQpnQgodHEweDw)

You won't have full access to prices, but it will give you an idea if LPG is an option for you.

I converted my car when petrol reached £1 per litre. There's good availabilty locally, but the price does vary quite a bit. My local one has just gone up from 44p to 46p a litre (first increase since Jan 08), but most charge around 50p a litre here, but it vary's from region to region.

Some sound advice regarding buying a diesel with good MPG. My only concern is the rising cost of diesel. With developing countries like China now using vast quatityies of fuel, the demand is rising constantly for it and supplies are reducing at the same pace. Therefore, petrol and diesel prices will only go one way and who knows at what rate?

Would anyone bet against it hitting £1.40 or even £1.50 by the end of the year? It was 87p last autumn, so don't think it's not a reality.....!!

[mr_cool]

The reality is LPG will probely rise in cost as well as I think the tax freeze on it ends soon? It still may repay itself if you can find a vehicle which has already had a good conversion done for a good price.

[Tucker]

I don't think the tax is going to be an issue. The frozen duty is till 2009 I think and then it's been assured it will be no more of an increase over petrol than by 1p per annum.

As a by- product of the process by which oil is converted to gasoline, LPG cannot be considered a renewable fuel but it is an under used resource. It's the demand for petrol and diesel that is driving it's price through the roof, nothing to do with tax.

LPG hasn't got the same demand and logic would say it's price is likely to be more stable.

[Tucker]

Just found this in an article from Feb 2007:

"At the time of writing this article a litre of unleaded petrol in my local garage costs 86p; a litre of LPG is 42p – and most major garages sell it. To put that into perspective, the last time petrol cost 42p a litre was in 1986, when Top Gun had just hit the local Odeon and a new fashion craze for men was sweeping the country - a new type of underwear known as boxer shorts."

I am sure there are retailers and parts of the country where the cost is still about half, but here in Greater Manchester I can still get it for 45p a litre (nearest retailer is 46p), so if you have the availability, then it's much less than half a year on from that article, as the cheapest petrol I know of is £1.08 and most are £1.10+.

Around here, the gap is widening........and long may it continue....:j

[djt100]

I was seaching the trader for a diesel when i saw a few bi fuel vauxhalls and volvo's. so the idea of LPG came to me late in the game compared to the default choice of diesel, but from reading all your comments above LPG may become the default option for me, The local sainsbury does LPG about 2 miles away but once a week thats not a big issue.
does anyone have a factory LPG? what's the reliability like and what sort of tank range do you get on lpg alone ???

[djt100]

Ok I've done some calculations on this using a factory LPG / Diesel / Pretrol
MPG figures are form parkers.
Cost is for 20000 miles
Fuel prices are the average fuel price in my area from www.petrolprices.com (http://www.petrolprices.com)

Petrol Astra 1.6 Envoy 5dr AC 39mpg Tax band E
£1.11 x 4.546 = £5.05 Gallon
20000 / 39mpg = 512.82 gallons
£5.05 x 512.82 = £2589.74

Diesel Astra 1.7 Envoy 5dr AC 60mpg Tax Band C
£1.20 x 4.546 = £5.46
20000 / 60mpg = 333.33
£5.46 x 333.33 = £1819.98

Bi-Fuel Astra 1.6 Envoy 5Dr AC Tax Band D
£0.58 x 4.546 = £2.64
20000 / 30mpg = 666.67
£2.64 x 666.67 = £1760.00

So cheapest is LPG, but thats only if i use LPG all the time, neaxt for a little extra is Diesel, and the tax band on the diesel is lower than the lpg and the petrol so the best option even with cheap lpg is still going to be the Diesel, As i think there will be occasions when I can not get Lpg. Of course this is all dependant on the price of each fuel. Could all change.

Hope this helps anyone else in the same or similar position to me.
If your wondering why I the Astra, No other reason than it was the fist one I found factory Mpg figures for, the one thing I would not have taken into account would have been the Lower MPG for LPG against the same Petrol Engine.

[djt100]

Missed this bit.

Peugeot 107 1.0
£1.11 x 4.546 = £5.05 Gallon
20000 / 61mpg = 327.87 gallons
£5.05 x 327.87 = £1655.74

107/ C1 /Aygo Cheaper still, Only problem is i don't want to drive 80 miles a day in one!

[BillScarab]

Be careful of the bi-fuel Volvos, I'm sure some of them run on CNG not LPG and CNG is harder to find.

[AdrianHi]

107/ C1 /Aygo Cheaper still, Only problem is i don't want to drive 80 miles a day in one!

Key point that, an Astra is an OK tool for doing 80 miles a day, those smaller cars will be very tiring as the months pass on that mileage.
There were not many factory LPG cars on the market, sounds like either a diesel something Astra sized or LPG Astra is the way to go since you have a supply of LPG nearby. If the car is used mostly for the daily commute you should be able to plan fuel re-fills so you always do it with LPG.
LPG conversions are expensive and only really worth it if you are trying to run a V6 or V8 on half decent fuel costs. You need to pick the equipment and fitter carefully, there are horror stories out there. http://www.lpginfo.co.uk/

[djt100]

Yep, As much as I want economy I also need a bit of comfort, I going from a Volvo C70 so V.Comfortable and plenty of power, so where I go from here is downhill so need a good compromise, girlfriend has a 2002 polo 1.4 petrol and its ok for distance but for a 1.4 it's gutless and high tax band ,she had a 1.25 ka before that was a much better car, not as well built but a better car none the less, more comfortable, Quieter,faster and more enomomical.

[AdrianHi]

I don't know if you have had a diesel before or not, but one of the characteristics of a modern turbo diesel is lots of torque and acceleration mid-range at typical motorway speeds. This makes for quiet and easy long distance cruising. By way of example:
2005 BMW 330i 50-75 mph in 4th gear 6.6 seconds (six cylinder 3.0L petrol engine)
2005 BMW 320d 50-75 mph in 4th gear 6.7 seconds (4 cylinder 2.0L turbo diesel)
No mis-typing here, a 4 cylinder turbo diesel mid-range really is as quick as a much bigger petrol engine even thought the 0-60 dash is not as good. Worth keeping in mind, might be worth the extra 100-200 a year in fuel to have this behaviour.

[djt100]

I don't know if you have had a diesel before or not, but one of the characteristics of a modern turbo diesel is lots of torque and acceleration mid-range at typical motorway speeds. This makes for quiet and easy long distance cruising. By way of example:
2005 BMW 330i 50-75 mph in 4th gear 6.6 seconds (six cylinder 3.0L petrol engine)
2005 BMW 320d 50-75 mph in 4th gear 6.7 seconds (4 cylinder 2.0L turbo diesel)
No mis-typing here, a 4 cylinder turbo diesel mid-range really is as quick as a much bigger petrol engine even thought the 0-60 dash is not as good. Worth keeping in mind, might be worth the extra 100-200 a year in fuel to have this behaviour.


Yep deffo worth a little extra £ for a little extra Go :T

[Tucker]

Wow - 58p. Your LPG is expensive!!

From those calculations the diesel currently makes more sense, as you will also use some petrol using a dual fuel car, as they start in petrol mode and flick over to LPG once the car hits the temp needed to burn LPG. So, even if you keep the LPG topped up, it will require some petrol for every start up.

[GunJack]

Round here typical costs are:

UL: 109ppl
diesel: 119ppl
LPG: 48ppl

So round here (N Wales) the differential between LPG and diesel is greater, so the saving would be greater.

[Tucker]

The variation in LPG prices is big compared to petrol. I suspect it's driven by competition or lack of in most cases.

Locally here there are 6 outlets selling LPG in one large town. Two are 24 hour forecourts and the rest are small independant retailers. It clearly forces them to be a little more competitive as the most expensive are the 24 hour ones at 49.9p.

Because of this availability, quite a few of the private hire cars are now running on LPG and one retailer told me they are currently converting at the rate of 1 or 2 per week now. Most are petrol Toyota's and it's positive for me as a user as it will ensure that suppliers will increase in number rather than decrease and keep them competitive.

If you live in a town with one outlet, then it seems you are held by the short and curly's and they can make a hefty profit per litre. Some must me taking 10p more per litre than others, as I'm sure they will be buying it for similar amounts??