What's the definition of an alcoholic?

[kent_lady]

Hi everyone

I searched to see if there is a similar thread on this subject but couldn't find one so here goes a new one....

My DH has a drink EVERY day. And I mean EVERY day. He has a job, drives a car, doesn't get incoherent, doesn't need a drink in the morning - all the "usual" signs of alcohol dependency are never displayed. However.......in the 9 years that I have known him I have never known him not to have a daily drink, apart from when he was ill with a chest infection once.

We have had several "discussions" about this and he denies that he has a problem. I have told him that I believe he is alcohol dependent and he argues that he isn't because he doesn't need a drink in the morning!!

Last year I posted on the alcohol selfhelp thread with these details and a couple of people said that he does have a problem based on what I wrote, but he just will not see it.

He says he likes a drink and that it helps him to relax. So I ask "so you can't relax without a drink then?" and he just repeats that he likes to have a drink in an evening to unwind. We go round and round in circles and get nowhere :mad: .

Trouble is that he drinks the strong lager which is 4 units a can. He will have 2 of these a night so 8 units. Eight units x 7 nights is 56 units a week and isn't the safe limit for a bloke, 21 units? So he is drinking almost three times the recommended amount and doesn't think he has a problem??!!!!

He is the sort of person who hates anyone (including me) to get the better of him so he is unlikely to admit that I'm right. We had a huge row on Sunday and I told him that denial isn't just a river in Egypt (must admit I was quite pleased with that !!) and that if he doesn't have a problem then prove it to me by not having a drink for a week. I have asked him to do this on at least 4 occasions now and he just says, "I'm not going to be dictated to". He did try it once and lasted 2 days before I heard the sound of the ringpull again....:eek:

Am I overreacting or IS he alcohol dependent? On Sunday I said to him that if I am SO wrong about him, do the week to prove me wrong.

The atmosphere in the house is awful, we are barely speaking to each other and (he's moody anyway) he is curt and miserable. He was on the computer last night with a beer on the desk which I pointedly ignored! I'm tempted to just say well it's your funeral, is your life insurance up to date? :p

Oh - just remembered, he had a well-man thing at work last year and the dollybird who did it said that he has excellent liver function for a man his age so of course he thinks he's superman now....

Does anyone have any advice/comments please? I can't go to al-anon as I feel that they would laugh me out of the meeting.....

[Riq]

Ask him not drink for 3 days, if he can't then I would say he is alcoholic.

I think that is best test which you seem to have tried, so I would say he is. The "I'm not being dictated to" sounds like an excuse rather than a reason. Macho dominance and all that jazz.

Plus I like your egypt joke. A hearty round of applause from me.

[noonesperfect]

As a non-drinker (though not completely tee-total) I would say he is alcohol dependent.

That's my opinion however, whether it's right or not, I don't know.

To me, if he can't go more than a couple of days without then he may well be classed as alcoholic - I don't think you necessarily have to fall over or be incoherent to be classed as such. I can think of at least one acquaintance who easily drinks 4-5 cans of heavy stout nightly, yet holds down a job, drives etc. That said, he's a complete a****ole when he's had a few.

He does indeed sound like he's in denial (I too, loved the joke :rotfl: )

[kent_lady]

Thanks both....I have tried to tell him what you have both said but he just will not hear it...and like I said in my OP he HATES to be wrong and he won't do the stop-for-a-week just because I have suggested it...because then I would be right and he would be wrong...see? :mad:

It's so frustrating!! I would not do the smug told-you-so thing either, although I did say on Sunday that he won't do it because he can't, and I had a wry smile on my face as I said it and he said "don't you laugh at me" .

I think deep down he knows I'm right but believe me, there is more chance of Peter Doherty giving up drugs than the DH admitting it !

[kent_lady]

Think I may have put this thread in the wrong place, it's meant to be in the relationships bit, how do I move it????

[newlywed]

and like I said in my OP he HATES to be wrong and he won't do the stop-for-a-week just because I have suggested it...because then I would be right and he would be wrong...see? :mad:

Can you try it as a "prove me wrong then - go without beer and you will prove I'm wrong"?

[bowz25]

hi
i thought i was reading about by own dh when i read your post.
He drinks everyday at least 2-3 cans of lager (strong lager as well 5% stella) and holds down job etc the same as your dh. When he does cut down as he has had to in the last year as we are on dmp and obviously this is not in the budget, he has trouble sleeping and i have said he is drink dependant. On a weekend he will have more.
I think this just makes them worse when you say anything and if sometimes if i go on it makes him drink more.
His mum was alcoholic and this does worry me he will go down the same path his mum sadly died at the age of 49 (heart attack due to this ).
I have asked him to go and have his liver tested he is 40 this year. He never goes out and he says most men drink lager. They do but not every day. He also smokes as well. He says he gets bored and he drinks but this is an excuse, but he has loads he can be doing in the house. He is a lovely person when not drinking then when he does he gets sarcastic not angry or anything its just when he has had drink i never have a go at him at the time.
When he does not have a drink he sometimes goes to bed early as if to stop himself wanting one.
I am dealing with this atm but if it does get worse not sure what will happen. My family are not happy with my situation as i am coping with stress of dmp and debt (not alone on this one i know) and my son is having tests for dyspraxia and asd. I am strong person but you have to think of yourself sometimes.
anyway just wanted to add you are not alone on this situation.
take care

[kent_lady]

Can you try it as a "prove me wrong then - go without beer and you will prove I'm wrong"?

Weird - I said exactly that to him on Sunday - go on, prove me wrong...he just looked at me!

Thanks for the suggestion though, I will keep at it!

[kent_lady]

Thanks for your reply bowz25, it's nice to know I'm not alone in this! Sometimes I wonder if I'm just being a nagging old bag, I get all the usual responses of "everyone drinks" etc etc - same as you. You're right, yes people drink but not every day. I will have a glass of wine or a fruit cider in an evening but for example, this week I haven't had one since last Friday and I really don't care, I can take it or leave it TBH. We are lucky that we are not in debt (I feel for you though) but I do look at how much he spends because he gives me his credit card bill to pay (I am the chancellor in our house) so I know how many times he's bought a 4-pack. We don't have much cash in the house so that's why he puts it on the card - we pay it off every month though otherwise I really would be doing my nut !!

There is no family history with him though so I don't know where it's come from - unless he just has an addictive side to him?

Please stay in touch and we can compare our progress!
Thanks xxx

[feelinggood]

The following test devised by the World Health Organisation might help you/him to work out if there is a problem:
http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/publications/areyou.htm

To be honest, although he is undoubtedly a heavy drink who is consuming more than he should, he doesn't sound like an alcoholic.

Does he always have 2 cans or more - does he every just have a few sips or one can?
How is he emotionally? Does he have mood swings? Anxiety?
Has he ever decided to 'test' himself by not drinking for X amount of time, or is it always your idea?
Does he have any family history of mental illness, addiction or substance abuse?

While many people can be high functioning alcoholics who hold down jobs, have families and don't drink in the morning, in my experience, all alcoholics have a lot of inner turmoil. If he is genuinely happy with his drinking habits and likes a couple of cans to unwind, it doens't sound like a problem.

I'm a recovering alcoholic, and I'm married to a heavy drinker, and there is a big difference in my opinion :O)

[kent_lady]

Hi, feelinggood, yes there is a history of mental illness - his father (now dead) had a nervous breakdown in the 1960s, apparently as an after-effect of being bombed during the war, he was thrown out of his shop in London by a V2.

Also, his nephew tried to kill himself after his first marriage broke up by lying on a railway track. He has been in and out of hospital ever since and has been diagnosed as manic depressive with anxiety and obsessive behaviour as well, he is on all sorts of medication. Same nephew is also a regular cannabis smoker.

My DH did drugs in the 70s, amphetamine I think, I am a bit ignorant about all of that. Thing is with that, he says that he just stopped - just like that, he realised it was mad and just stopped.....go figure!

He always drinks the full can and always has 2 cans.

It's always my idea and as I said in my OP, I think that's why he won't do it - yes he IS that bloody-minded and stubborn!! :mad:

Anxious he is not but he IS moody....but I think that's just him?! I have remembered since my OP that we went to a wedding and as we'd been to another do the week before and I drove home from that, I told him it was his turn to drive home. He said ok but at the wedding he had the RIGHT hump, he says because some of the blokes were being arseholes but I think it was because they were all drunk and he was on the coke (the drink I mean LOL!:rotfl: ).

[kent_lady]

Feelinggood, well done for being a recovering alcoholic and I really appreciate your advice as a result, you are speaking from experience. Interesting point about him being happy with his drinking habits, perhaps it is just me then? It's just I can't get my head round him being unable/unwilling to go for a night/a week without. Like I said, I had a glass of wine on Friday night but have had nothing since and "am I bovvered?" (no).

Perhaps it just means that his habits are different to mine? Can't help feeling that if he can't go without then he is addicted though.....

[bloomin freezing]

Personally a couple of cans of lager a night sounds ok to me, units for me don't come into things, he's just having a couple of beers. Money permitting, i can easily have 2 or 3 glasses of wine every night (3 large glasses usually empty the bottle) , occasionally if i haven't finished the bottle the night before i'll have a glass in the afternoon with my lunch. Does this mean i'm an alcoholic too?

[Cornishpixie]

Hi, Have a similar dilema with hubby, he drinks and smokes every night. I did the demotivator and told him how much he spends as we couldn't afford to go on holiday. Then his mother bails him out by sending money for the holiday:mad: Anyhoo I have suggested giving up together, though I don't drink a lot, but if I bottle of wine then I'll usually drink it. Around once a week, but if I'm stressed midweek and he buys some, then I'll have a glass of wine or beer. Then he says I know you couldn't do it. Personally I've come to the conclusion that's it's best for me to back off, for time being as he does have stressful job. He has cut back a bit so hope one day he will wake up and smell the coffee. I wonder what your hubby would do if you backed of completely? That pressure would be gone then,and my guess is eventually he'll think oh perhaps she's right. My advise is not too rely on him, and just get on and do your own thing. See what happens.;) :)

[DrFluffy]

The very quick screening tool we use in clinics is the CAGE questionnaire:
C = do you think you need to Cut down on your drinking
A = do you get Annoyed or angry when people suggest you drink too much
G = do you feel Guilty about the amount you drink
E = do you take an Eye opener

There are lots of different definitions of an alcoholic, which usually relate to the speciality seeing a patient, the best of which is probably "the repeated use of alcohol despite recurrent adverse consequences", combined with tolerance (the need to drink more alcohol to get the same effect), a clear withdrawal syndrome (symptoms on ceasing drinking) and an uncontrollable drive to drink.

[ViHan]

Similar scenario here. Mr ViHan likes a regular drink in the evening when he comes home from work to 'unwind'.
I talk to him on regular occasions about it and now he drinks for say 4 nights, a beer or a glass of wine, at weekends though he makes it a couple ;) BUT he can go for long periods without even thinking of a drink. For instance he once gave it up for Lent :eek:
Pity Lent has gone really.. you could have thrown down that gauntlet for him..:rolleyes:

I think if you are teetotal or rarely drink, then you notice it more. I don't drink, but my father was an alcoholic.

[sandy2]

To me it sounds more like a habit rather than an addiction, just like if you have 2 cups of tea in the morning. Ok, for OP it's an irritating habit I admit. Pehaps get him to share a can with you as a shandy, or have a glass of wine together

[paula65]

If he's only having a couple of cans and not getting plastered or getting violent or angry, I'd say it was a habit.

I have to admit that my husband and I have a couple of cans every night, once the kids are in bed. When I was pregnant (4 kids) I just switched to non alcaholic beer :beer:

[Ephemera]

My father often drinks a half bottle of whisky a night, or several cans of strong lager, and denies he has a problem.

He doesn't, we do!

He's irrational, often insulting, emotionally unstable, flies off the handle about nothing and is incoherent at times.


There are very few days when he doesn't have a drink, even during his treatment for prostate cancer he still drank, although beer, not spirits.

Fool to himself.

[Ephemera]

The following test devised by the World Health Organisation might help you/him to work out if there is a problem:
http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/publications/areyou.htm

To be honest, although he is undoubtedly a heavy drink who is consuming more than he should, he doesn't sound like an alcoholic.

Does he always have 2 cans or more - does he every just have a few sips or one can?
How is he emotionally? Does he have mood swings? Anxiety?
Has he ever decided to 'test' himself by not drinking for X amount of time, or is it always your idea?
Does he have any family history of mental illness, addiction or substance abuse?

While many people can be high functioning alcoholics who hold down jobs, have families and don't drink in the morning, in my experience, all alcoholics have a lot of inner turmoil. If he is genuinely happy with his drinking habits and likes a couple of cans to unwind, it doens't sound like a problem.

I'm a recovering alcoholic, and I'm married to a heavy drinker, and there is a big difference in my opinion :O)

Ow.

Did the test on my Dad's behalf, assumed he didn't feel guilty about his drinking and he scored 27!!!
8 is a problem drinker.

However he STILL will not admit he has a problem with drink.

:wall::wall::wall:

[belfastgirl23]

I think if your DH refuses to admit there's a problem and is the type of person who does not like being told what to do (I have one of them at home myself) then you can't keep going on at him about it. I think you should have a heart to heart where you say to him that you are really upset about this and you are not going to talk to him about it any more but you want him to know that you are concerned that he is damaging his health. If he chooses to ignore it there's nothing you can do. But if you do talk to him about it again after this focus on you and how it upsets you rather than him. The worst thing you can do with a guy like this is go on the attack unfortunately, it'll only make him dig his heels in.

I do think it's a problem btw but unfortunately you can't do it for him.

Finally it's worth seeing if there are other sneakier ways to persuade him. EG is he concerned about his weight? Level of fitness? would he be worried about diabetes potentially? Exploit ruthlessly anything he's thinking about that might lead to him cutting down....encourage him to take up some kind of sport that might lead to him cutting back etc. Just a thought, I know that has worked with DH to some extent, some things are best approached sideways.

Good luck though. There's a lot of alcoholism in my own family so I know something of what your worries are...

[Soubrette]

Habit and addiction are intertwined so tightly that it is hard to unwind one without the other.

The huge pointer to me is that your husband cannot cut down despite it upsetting you so much. If he is not an alcoholic then he is a problem drinker.

Have you thought about going to Al-anon? You need to take control of those things that you are able to have control over, unfortunately he isn't one of those :(

Good luck

Sou

[tanith]

I agree too that there is a problem , I was married to a 'problem drinker' for 22yrs and it took me many years to realise it was his problem not mine.. we eventually divorced because of it.. he managed to run his own business and hide it from his parents too.. they were amazed when they finally realised that he was a drinker.. they too just thought he drank a couple to wind down, relax or chill. He now has liver damage and living on benefits..

I think a sure sign is if you ever have to make excuses for him because of his drinking... and when he drinks in the evening its fully possible he could still be over the limit the next morning and then gets in his car and drives...

Sorry to be doom and gloom but the sorry truth is that he is the only one who can change his drinking habits and if he doesn't want to then there is nothing you can do.. it doesn't sound as if its impacting your life too much yet I hope it stays that way...

[Somerset]

As someone else said, heavy drinkers are not necessarily alcoholics. Might be, might not. There's a 20 question test which a person can take which indicates whether there's a problem with alcohol - but there's no point me posting a link, because your husband wouldn't take it. He won't admit there is a problem ( IF there is ). He's certainly not looking for help ( because there's no problem ). Nagging and confrontation won't MAKE him admit or do anything - it has to come from him.

Go to alanon. YOU think there's a problem, YOU think he's an alcoholic. They won't laugh at you. They'll have heard it all before. You don't need him to admit to the alcoholic 'label' before you're allowed 'in'. Many alcoholics would never acknowledge it. Forget about making him do 'tests' to prove anything to you. It's pointless. Just do what you need to do - you think there's a problem so go to the place/group where you can get support for you.

[suki1964]

It was when I found I couldnt stop drinking for a few days that I checked in to detox.

I was in total denial till that point, even though I was already being seen by the alcohol team at the mental health unit.

I am an alcoholic but as to is your partner - only he can say

As for yourself, as somerset has offered, as you have a problem with his drinking then you may find support and understanding at Al - Anon

You can "fix" him, only he can do that and as he sees it hes not broken. Get the help YOU need for you.

Good luck

[Savvy_Sue]

I agree, go to al-anon, I'm sure they won't laugh at you. But I don't think you'll be able to convince him he has a problem until and unless he wants to do something about it, so if you can't live with it ...

[Andrean]

There is a problem alright, if not for him presently but for you, as you are rightly concerned it will become a problem for him in the future, despite having a normal LFT (Liver Function Test). This is not a definitive indicator of how his liver is btw, only a biopsy can do that.
The biggest problem you have is his denial and the strain in your relationship. Only he can ease up on the drinking, so I'm afraid you may as well bash your head against a wall talking to him.
It is so tough for you and you have my sympathy. Just wish I had a magic wand. http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[bryanb]

Definition of an alcoholic- Someone who drinks more than their doctor.
As told to me by my doctor.

[geri1965]

If my OH drank only two cans a night I'd be more than happy.

I don't think there is a problem here, really.

My partner will drink a whole bottle of Southern Comfort in one go, or 12-14 cans of lager (not every day but once or twice a week).

It's much better to drink a little a day rather than completely overload your system and binge drink.

[Mark7799]

From what the OP has said, I wouldn't consider her OH an alcoholic. His drinking is causing a problem, the tension between them is evident of that.

Personally, I like a drink a couple of times a week, have to admit that I now drink probably about a quarter of what I drank when I was 20 years younger:o .

Recognising an alcoholic is a bit like spotting the elephant - you know it when you see it. I've only dealt with two people who I thought were alcoholics and the OP's DH doesn't fit their descriptions. By the sound of it, he likes a drink and it seems like a habit he can't break - does his drinking increase when he's not working/on holiday? What if you engaged in other activities on a couple of nights to break the link with drinking every night?

[Pennylane]

Someone earlier suggested asking him to refrain for 3 days and I think that's a good suggestion.

I barely drink, in fact it wouldn't bother me if I never drank alcohol ever again. I really can take it or leave it. But hubby likes a drink - he is not a pub person but often buys a couple of cans for an evening.

A few years ago when I stopped smoking he was very supportive and said he'd stop drinking (his idea not mine!) and he went for about six months and lost loads of weight too! It wasn't a problem for him and he said he actually felt better.

In answer to the question about when does a person admit they are alcoholic - some never recognise they have a problem. My friend had to divorce her hubby after 22 YEARS as his drinking had cost them their house, his job, his driving licence and it was badly affecting their two young kids. Alcohol ruined his body and he was really ill.

He died last year aged 51 and she was the only person he had left. On his deathbed he was STILL asking the question "How did it ever come to this?" My friend could not believe that it STILL hadn't sunk in that he had a problem despite being told 15 years earlier that he was killing himself and must stop.

[lewt]

.http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/chapter_8.html

[ellies angel]

I grew up with both my parents consuming a bottle of vodka or Whisky between them every night. To this day I believe they still drink that amount. When out in an evening I never knew what I was coming home to. I could never bring frends home after a night out.
Even at my Wedding my mum got out of her face and behaved appaulingly. She was the talk of the staff at breakfast the following morning.
Both hold down jobs, their drinking has never affected this and neither drink through the day. They don't go to the pub to drink, only doing it at home. they will even argue over who is drinking more!!!
My dad does drink in the morning if he is working nightshift.
This has been going on for 30 years (my dad anyway) how he is still alive amazes me.
Has he a drink problem. No, of course he doesn't, he just likes a couple to relax in the evening and mum is just drinking to keep him company. Well thats their story and they are sticking to it.