Bangernomics: Is this the cheapest possible motoring? [Archive]

sarahemmm

16-04-2008, 11:32 AM

I travel about 20,000 miles a year and need to do so as economically as possible consistent with moderate reliability.

For the last several years I have bought cars off ebay for around £200* with at least 6 months MOT, then run them until they break or the MOT runs out; repeat as required. I don't spend any money** on them, other than petrol and tax. I do have an AA card, with Relay, which I have used 4 times in the last year, including one relay home, and I'm not too bothered about breaking down occasionally - just get the car to the scrappy and buy another (if I haven't already got one sitting on the drive).

Does anyone have a more economical option? Current average annual cost is £600 plus petrol and tax. Of course, depending on the car, petrol consumption may be better or worse. Worst was 31mpg, currently well over 45mpg on an N reg Toyota Primera.

* best buy was £125 plus a new battery; worst was £475 for a car I scrapped after 3 months

** I did spend on this one: £20 for a part worn tyre at the scrappy, then £132 for a new waterpump - which has almost doubled its value ;-) But that's only because its a solid beast and my friendly mechanic reckons it will whizz the MOT in June.

box

Conor

16-04-2008, 11:36 AM

If you get a good reliable one, MOT it and keep using it until the MOT costs more than £250. I once bought a Rover 416 from auction for £100. Had it for 2 years and sold it to my brother who used it for another 18 months. It's replacement was a Rover 600 bought with no MOT from a dealer for £500 which just needed a rear silencer for test. I had that for 18 months and my brother still has it 2 years later.

No need to get rid of them just because the MOT expires. If you want true bangernomics, MOT it and keep using it.

sarahemmm

16-04-2008, 11:55 AM

If you get a good reliable one, MOT it and keep using it until the MOT costs more than £250. I once bought a Rover 416 from auction for £100.

I've found that, every time I spend something on a car, something much more expensive goes wrong soon after - last year I was foolish enough to put my Omega through, then it blew the head gasket 3 weeks later :( So I'm not really expecting this one to do well - in fact I'm keeping an eye on ebay now.

I guess if I was a mechanic, that would be sound advice - it just hasn't worked for me (even though I have a pretty cheap mechanic on tap).

I haven't got round to going to auctions, mainly because I'm away from home all week and it would be a bit awkward. How can I tell which auctions are for the cheap and cheerful end of the market? And do they go much cheaper than on ebay?

avantra

16-04-2008, 2:33 PM

I think you are on the right direction,

1. You don't care which car you drive - correct?
2. It got to have 4 wheels - correct?
3. It needs to take you from A2B and that's all -correct?

Ok, I don't think you can do much better than this, £600+fuel is bril!:T

What u can do IMHO (so you will not be on first name terms with the AA man) is to sit a bit on the net and do some research on ' Which Banger' :rotfl: As a starting point :In general cars from the mid 90's are better all round for reliability and now falls into bangernomics territory, another point is to look for anything made by japanese or German makers, they use to make solid cars in the 90's early 00.

By reading drivers reviews on Parkers you can get a good feeling of what to look for and what to leave. As I am in the same boat as you I found out these cars especially good value in the £200 to 900:

1. Diesel Rovers (or anything with the Rover L type engine) . These cars have old but proven technology in them. (but stay away of petrol Rovers)
2. Nissans like the Almera and the Primera are good but it looks like they start to rust now
3. Honda Civic and Accord from 1995 and on, should be mostly solid and easy to sort out.
4. The ugly Proton Mpi , it's an old Mitubishi underneath
5. Old VW polo (pre 1995)

Tha'ts about it from what I can recall but others will probably can add to this list.

anewman

16-04-2008, 3:20 PM

AdrianHi

16-04-2008, 6:09 PM

One of my little hobbies is examining what the real cost of any given car as an average monthly expense over the period I have the use of it in great detail. Sometimes doing this tells me to sell on a car just before it gets out of manufacturers warranty for a nearly new one under warranty, because for certain cars holding their value well (e.g. BMW, Mini, Audi, Skoda) in the long run it using it 6 to 36 months old is cheaper on average per month than keeping it in year 4. This is down to year 4 depreciation not being that different from average of months 6 to 36, but in year 4 you have MOT, breakdown cover, extended warranty (or take the risk), later more expensive services, you don't start out with nearly new tyres, older potentially less economical engine - to pay out for. Anyone keeping a Mini from month 37 onwards is not doing their sums properly, it's cheaper to sell it privately and buy a brand new one, they hold their value so well (69% residual after 3 years!!!). What this really means is they are not actually worth what people will pay at 3 years old.

I also use the same technique for looking at older and invariably less economical cars, because sometimes you can find an old interesting but very low mileage car for not too much money that does not have too much to loose in depreciation.

All this leads me to a conclusion - if you can deal with the potential unreliability of a car costing £200 to buy which you toss in the bin if it breaks, it is the absolute cheapest way to have the use of a car because of nearly zero depreciation.

I cannot do this myself because visits to the garage or not getting to work due to breakdown looses me enough money (self employed) to make it worth paying the depreciation costs of younger cars, plus I don;t have time to shop for a car every 6 months.

Looks like £200 cars work for you, so stick with it.

sarahemmm

18-04-2008, 10:30 AM

Thanks, all! I guess I'm too lazy to spend much time working out potential cost savings on one car v another, plus of course, I get what I can find. But the list of reliable bangers is really helpful to bear in mind next time. I would agree about trying to go with the same model, but again its not that easy.

want2bmortgage3

19-04-2008, 9:46 AM

I would recommend older VW Golf or polo... they seem to go on forever and don't rust a lot. The Mk2 Golf will do 200k+ miles easily (mines on 231k), or the polo estate/coupe will cost even less due to smaller engines.

If you go for a Golf between 1988-1992 then the only small engine option is a 1.3 which is sluggish, and I dont think as reliable as the bigger engines. So I'd pay the extra in tax and get a 1.6 or 1.8i GTI. Surprisingly the GTi 8v is no worse on fuel than a 1.6 due to being injection. 40mpg is easily possible on motorways/a-roads. You could go for a Mk3 Golf where there is a 1.4i engine as they have come down in price.

The polos were a bit boxy before 1991 but you can get a 1.0 engine which is great on fuel, or a 1.3 with a bit more power. The look improved a bit between '91 and '94 and the coupe version is quite good looking. Again you could get a newer one 94 onwards in a 1.0 engine which still looks modern and can be had quite cheap now (around £5-600)

I agree with your way of doing things... while you have a big mortgage to try and reduce how can you be happy wasting money on a car you dont need? I'm going to do the same as you and buy sub-£500 cars off ebay whenever my current car becomes uneconomical to repair..

Inactive

19-04-2008, 12:18 PM

. Worst was 31mpg, currently well over 45mpg on an N reg Toyota Primera.

Which I suspect is actually a Nissan Primera.;)

k18dan

19-04-2008, 8:15 PM

I have done the same for the last few years, I have my weekend toy that sits in the garage during the week, but for a general weekly/work runabout I get a banger from the auctions/ebay, First off I bought a pug 205 for £250 run around for 14 months, Had one MOT early on, which it went straight through, aprt from that spent nothing else on it, sold it for £250, Now I have a mk6 1995 Escort 1.8 TD LX picked up for £500 with 1 years MOT, lost of service history, good tyres, I have had that 15 months so far, it has gone through one MOT which needed 2x bushes and 2x typre which i got really cheap, when she finally breaks she will be scraped and I will pick up another off ebay..

sarahemmm

20-04-2008, 10:06 AM

Which I suspect is actually a Nissan Primera.;)

Indeed - I tend to forget what it is I'm driving, or else it was a senior moment -- take your pick!

moggylover

08-05-2008, 2:08 PM

I currently have a Skoda Favorit Estate 1994 and have had it just over a year, probably worth less than £100 realistically. Just about to have an MOT retest but only failed on rear bearing adjustment (my fault as I replaced the bearings myself) and a corroded brake pipe. MOT's always seem to bring up brake pipes so I am considering getting myself a flaring kit, handful of unions and a roll of pipe.

This is the best approach to motoring IMO. I can't understand why people with financial difficulties won't go for anything under a few thousand and get expensive credit to add to the cost of motoring and their other debts. There seems to be some unreasonable assumption of old or high mileage = crap and not worth bothering with. Or just the choice to have something with a nice badge and the latest reg to show off to people and keep up with the Jones's.

Like Conor says, I would try take care of the cars, put them through the MOT and you might be suprised at how little it costs to get through the MOT. An N reg primera is definitely worth keeping a couple of years at least - I can't imagine the headgasket will go on it.

I personally think the absolute ultimate way is to make the next car the same as the last one and strip the old one of all the good bits before scrapping it, but that's of course more for the mechanically minded.

Well done!

Back in the 1990's I watched two of my friends loose their homes to re-possession because they did not pay the morgage but both paid the loans on their expensive NEW cars and their expensive NEW furniture! What on earth was the point of having a nice big new leather sofa if you only had your 6 month old super-dooper-whizy-mobeel to put it in?! But then, they looked good to their friends and neighbours UNTIL the house was re-possessed!

I still miss my Citroen GS, which I bought when I worked for them at about 6 months old and ran for 13 years!!! When asked for my registration number I STILL always want to say CJH 26V - even a good 14 years after she went to a Citroen enthusiast to add to his collection - and raised me £100 even then with blown suspension!

sarahemmm

23-06-2008, 8:55 AM

If you get a good reliable one, MOT it and keep using it until the MOT costs more than £250.
...
No need to get rid of them just because the MOT expires. If you want true bangernomics, MOT it and keep using it.

Just to let you know - it has just passed its MOT, requiring 3 bulbs and a split pin. Mind you, that still cost me 100 quid in total!

cyclonebri1

23-06-2008, 11:13 AM

Just to let you know - it has just passed its MOT, requiring 3 bulbs and a split pin. Mind you, that still cost me 100 quid in total!

Now that really is where you're letting yourself down, you need a mechanical "mate", sorry not volunteering:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :money:

Thunderbird

23-06-2008, 2:19 PM

Just to let you know - it has just passed its MOT, requiring 3 bulbs and a split pin. Mind you, that still cost me 100 quid in total!

Well done! :T

tomstickland

23-06-2008, 7:21 PM

I'm a big fan of old cars. People like to justify buying new cars because old ones are "unreliable and inefficient", but that's only true for badly maintained old cars. My current 17 year old BMW manages 39mpg with some spirited driving and racked up 100,000 miles before my first breakdown, which was the fuel pump expiring. TBH I should have carried a spare round with me because it had been noisey for 2 years.

Shoshannah

27-06-2008, 6:53 PM

New cars are overrated. :D :rotfl:

I've had my current car for three years now. She is 16 years old now. Bought her for £250 off Ebay. I've done 50,000 miles in her, so of course things need replacing. I've replaced the battery (7 years old by the time it failed), alternator, bushes and brakes but that's pretty much it. I service her myself, so only pay for parts.

Number of breakdowns? 0.

As tomstickland says, badly maintained old cars will break down. But if you look after them (and it doesn't take a lot of effort, no more than you should maintain any car really) they can be cheap, reliable motoring. Those who think older cars require too much maintenance probably do nothing to maintain their newer cars at all, and think that the annual MOT is enough. Some of my friends have three and four year old Clios etc that their dads bought for them - most of them don't even check their tyre pressures, let alone check the oil. And they think that servicing a car is topping up the windscreen wash. :rolleyes:

I recently travelled along the M25; the weather was wet and the traffic was slow moving. I counted a total of 12 broken down cars at the side of the road between junctions 23 and 12 and not a single one was older than my car. In fact, the majority looked less than five or six years old.

1971rr

28-06-2008, 9:29 PM

Over the years I have been motoring I have come to the conclusion that if you cut out depreciation then you can afford many other things in life.I own 6 vehicles-2 are classics which appreciate in value.2 i use for work(volvo 240 estate and a v90) and an astra lxi estate.The last is a 1990 Mercedes 300e.

I get great pleasure in maintaining/going to car rallies with these cars and when using my 240 for work get annoyed if I see a car older!!On my daily commute almost every car I see is new and most probably on finance-running an old car certainly brings out the smug side in you.

All my spare money goes into my house rather than on depreciation.I am living in a 4 bed detached in a nice village.Nothing amuses me more than driving past small 2 bed terraces with new BMW's and their ilk squashed in on what used to be a front garden.

In my road almost everyone runs new cars but I know which I would rather have.My 6 classics or a new Focus-no contest!

sarahemmm

30-06-2008, 10:16 AM

Well, he did fix the boot lock as well (I had it held shut with a bungee cord) and the MOT was £50.

Mind you, it will probably break severely now...

judosteffer

08-07-2008, 10:28 PM

Never managed to get one for £200, but a bargain buy I had was a K-reg Nissan Sunny a few years back.

Paid £800 quid for it, changed the sparkplugs, oil and air filter myself and fitted 2 budget tyres.

Kept it for a year, and did over 10,000 miles of trouble free motoring.

Sold it for £600! So it only lost £200 in value, plus about £150 for parts, cost me about £350-400 quid plus petrol, tax and insurance for the year!

considering many new cars depreciate more than that EACH month, I think that was a bargain! wish I'd never sold it now!

anewman

08-07-2008, 11:18 PM

I think it will be difficult to get cars for £200 now, given they easily fetch that in scrap metal value.

bargepole

08-07-2008, 11:24 PM

18 months ago I went to Blackbushe Car Auction, and picked up a very tidy Rover 600 2.0 petrol, R reg, for just £450 with no MoT but a full service history. Not many traders were bidding, they all seem to think you can't get parts for Rovers, which is nonsense.

I had to get a couple of gaiters for the MoT, so that cost £100, and it's done 20,000 trouble-free miles since, sailing through the next MoT with no faults. For such a luxurious car, with aircon, electric everything, motorway cruising at 85mph 70mph, this is ludicrously cheap motoring.

Now I need to get an estate car for work, so I'm eyeing up an MG ZT-T, and I've already got a buyer for the Rover at £750!

alasota

08-07-2008, 11:45 PM

I have to be honest - I'm x-motor manufacturer!

I worked for a German car manufacturer for about 6 years, and a British one before that for about 5 years. During that period I had pretty much every car in their range every 3-4 months, new. Great fun. All the modern stuff. Never even paid for fuel! Happy Dayz!

Deciding to do a career break, left with no car, but loads of 'knowledge', the direction I took was the banger route.

We all know that depreciation is the real killer with cars. You would not believe how much profit these manufacturers make from each new car (not the dealer I might add!) sold.

I parted £900 for a 1994 1.8GLX Mondeo Estate back in very early 2004. The key to finding a bargain is in your local press (buy it the day, nay, the morning it comes out). Local owners who have cared for their cars (this was a one-owner car with a full - YES FULL! dealer history on a 10 year old car (now thats where the dealers make their money!) and are reluctantly selling. I viewed it in the dark! Noticed a few body blemishes, struck a deal and collected it for cash the following day.

Over 50,000m later, one new spring £18 (thank you Slough Council for your very very dodgy speed humps), cam belt change (£180 local garage), servicing by me every 6 months or so and some other bits and pieces, I have probably spent about £600 over 4 years total on MOT's and maintenance!

This Mondeo has a reliable, pretty simple motor (I get about 38-42 MPG all the time) and a cavanous boot! The bodywork is tatty (2 friends have borrowed it and decided to crash into the same wall twice, each requiring a 'new' rear bumper (£20 off ebay)) but it does the job. Never broken down on me, and starts first time, every time!

The story, and my message, is buy local, do your own maintenance (ask a friend to show you - it really is simple and should cost you £20-£30 for the parts if you buy from a local Motor Factor), look for an MOT only garage (ie, does NOT do repairs, just MOT test - search the forum) and drive normally - not too slow and not too fast - cars DO need to be driven once in a while, you can get some very, very cheap motoring!

Shame is, I'm back in the real world soon and will hopefully be getting a 'shirt and tie' job again, requiring a better looking 'respectable' motor to turn up in. I already have my eye on my next 'respectable motor' (no proper clues, but it will be German!). If I lose more than £500 per year, I will be bitterly disappointed!

aimharl

09-07-2008, 12:51 AM

I have a book called Bangernomics and my last car well actually a van was a citroen berlingo 1.8D had it 2yrs cost me £380 for MOTs and tyres sold it on ebay for £750 2 weeks ago with 161000 on. When I bought it off Ebay it had 122000 on and had just had a new clutch fitted. I did just general maintenace regular oil and filters and it was great people did think I was strange driving a van at work. I over the years have lost a fortune on cars
over the years. I now have a citroen zx that was sat on my brothers drive with 74000. Started 1st time cost 150 to get through MOT so looking forward to some v cheap motoring . I have learnt the car does not maketh the person. http://bangernomics.tripod.com/index.html

michaels

09-07-2008, 7:44 AM

Fiat Stilo 52, bought 2 years ago from ebay for 2045, 39k. Now 65k, new power steering £200 (second hand part local garage fitted) and two £100 service plus MOT deals and 2 tyres £90 and just sold to local garage for £1500 - so cost over 2 years 26k miles 550 + 500 + 240 (cost of capital @6%) = 650 pa for a car that wasn't an old banger (even had a private plate when I bought it so people couldn't tell if it was 4yrs od or nearly new)

pianeet

09-07-2008, 8:08 AM

bought an 04 plate tdi passat in 2006 for £6000 with 50,000 miles on clock(trade sale). just sold it 2years 4 months later with 90,000 on the clock for £4800 only major work was cambelt change £300 so £54 a month for what has been an ultra reliable motor .
i am at the moment trying to stop my mother in law buying a brand new honda jazz ,and to buy at least an ex demo but she still wants her first brand new car(she must be mad)

scrooze247

09-07-2008, 8:27 AM

Buying new cars is like standing in the street and tearing up a GREAT BIG PILE OF £10 NOTES.

I purchased for £600 (a little over the odds) three years ago - off Ebay - a one owner K Reg Nissan Micra with 40k miles on the clock.My wife still has it.It returns 58mpg, gives her independence and always passes the MOT.So...no problem with that !

In April,after writing off our 4x4 in Spain (not our fault),I purchased off the Net a 1998 Citroen Xantia Estate with 9850 miles on the clock ! I paid £2600 for that (again over the odds) but it will last us for years. It still smells new inside !
Honestly !

So I am completely in agreement with this posting. I just do not understand why people willingly tear up £000,s of £10 notes in depreciation.

sarahemmm

09-07-2008, 8:51 AM

I have a book called Bangernomics ...
. I have learnt the car does not maketh the person. http://bangernomics.tripod.com/index.html

Thanks for that excellent link:T - had no idea there was a book!

I do seem to have brought a number of people out of the woodwork - congrats to all you cheap motoring fans :beer:

innerdavid

09-07-2008, 9:00 AM

I like bigger cars, and need one to tow my caravan. So I am now on my second Volvo 960 from ebay. This one was £500, has full leather, auto, "fully loaded" as the ads say. It is a 3 litre engine, and whilst not quite as economical as some of the cars on here, will do 30 mpg at a steady 70 mph (on the cruise control!).

It had 6 months MoT (and some tax), and what I ususally do, and did this time, is put it straight through another MoT test - two reasons. 1. If it fails badly (ie not economical to put right), it can be "disposed of" with the existing MoT. 2. I would rather work on the car to get it through it's MoT at this time of year rather than in Jan when the existing MoT runs out. (oh - and it passed with no faults)

I did look at two local motor auctions, but found that, certainly for the larger type cars I was looking for (Volvos, Discoverys etc.), prices were no cheaper than ebay (but about half what the vehicle would be priced at on a dealer's forecourt). What I did find was the auctions had distinctly different styles. If you have a look at the stock list (Usually on the website), check prices on ebay or the local paper, and then go and see what the vehicles fetch, you may be suprised. Also at one of the auctions you could go to the office, and ask about individual vehicles (make sure you have a lot number), including the reserve price.
I think the moral is, if you want to buy from an auction, go to a few beforehand to see how they work.

keithwjones

09-07-2008, 9:02 AM

Davesnave

09-07-2008, 9:07 AM

I've not been in the real banger end of the market since being in my 20's, longer ago than I care to admit, but I remember some £50 cars then that ran for years and never broke down.

Over the years I've always driven older, low mileage (well, when I bought them!) cars, well into in the sub-£1000 bracket. A Renault 12 we had still needed running-in, and a 20k miles Hillman Hunter's owner had an excellent reason for selling, being dead. The saddest one was a Volvo 240 with moss growing on it; like new, but left by an owner who had suffered a bereavement, the tow-bar untouched by the caravan he never bought. Bloomin' awful car to drive though! We sold it easily enough to an enthusiast.

Despite being mostly in this price range, I've only had one vehicle with much more than 50k on it, and that was an Audi, which had probably been clocked. Even that wasn't a bad car but, in about half a million miles of motoring, it was the only one that broke down, fortunately just outside the half mile from home rescue no-go zone !

My current Primera estate came in totally immaculate condition from one of those little 'middle men' dealers, as did the one before it. It is the only car I've paid more than £1200 for, but I could still sell it without much 'loss' because what qualifies as a banger near London is still a smart motor where I live. I shan't though, because once you have a good car, you may as well run it until it gets to the more expensive stage at around 90k miles, when some of the bigger bits can wear out.

Maybe £200 is a bit cheap- equivalent to some of my £50 cars from the past that I'd not feel very safe in today, but I'd be happy to go anywhere in my daughter's £450 Polo.

jimbo_the_jetset

09-07-2008, 9:15 AM

I think I actually make money from my banger, beat that!!

I've got a 1.1 1991 Peugeot 205 with ~125K on the clock. Commonly get 45mpg normal driving and on a recent full tank motorway run was pleased to say I got 56mpg!! Bearing in mind I was getting 40p a mile for those 500 business miles (nice big tank in old cars!) = £200.

The car cost ~£300 3 years ago. Had a few bits over the years but I'm sure I'm still in net profit from business miles. Oh and £96 insurance for the year (I'm only 27, 4 years no claims and live in a bad insurance area), cheap tax, the benefits go on. General maintainance costs the price of filters and oil, £20, and a morning of my time with regular tea breaks.

And STILL people say to me 'when are you going to get a new car?' - never I hope!!

whowants2brich

09-07-2008, 10:11 AM

The other point to mention is that if people have a banger, they only need 3rd party insurance, rather than fully comp - which could save a bit as well, depending on the insurance history etc. The downside is that changing the car every few months (or at least during the term of insurance) might cost more to make amendments to the insurance contract...

gizmo2brian

09-07-2008, 10:24 AM

I fully agree with this idea of buying bangers. I've got a P reg ford escort, bought 18 months ago for £495, sold as seen from a garage. It had 6 months of MOT and 3 months tax and had been well maintained. It sailed through it's MOT last year, all it needed was a bit of duct tape slapped over the rusty rear wheel arch (a common issue on Escorts). It starts first time, I've done almost 10,000 miles since buying it. OK, it's a "summer car", because when the weather turns bad I know the speedo will stop working ( a quick tap on the dashboard makes it work again), the rear window wiper may or may not work, the electric windows probably won't work (but who opens the windows in the winter) and the boot gets a bit damp, but as long as it starts and runs I can live with it's little quirks. I'm prepared to spend a reasonable amount to get it through its next MOT (upto about £50). Anymore than that it'll go to the scrappies and I'll invest in another cheapo. I've been through the "shiny car" stage, but getting older means I don't need to keep up with the Jones's any more, nor do I need to take on debt for a lump of metal!!!

golders

09-07-2008, 10:28 AM

As part of your banger planning make sure you work out its Miles Per Gallon (MPG).

I use this handy free site: www.petrolcalculator.co.uk (http://www.petrolcalculator.co.uk) & www.dieselcalculator.co.uk (http://www.dieselcalculator.co.uk)

Worth bookmarking for the future banger planning.

cliffe

09-07-2008, 10:31 AM

This method works for us, although our current car is nice to drive and looks fairly tidy, so I wouldn't call it a banger. It is a P reg Mazda 626 and cost £500 3 years ago, I guess it has cost £150 a year or so to keep on the road. I could still probably get more that I paid for it, but at the moment I plan to run it into the ground.

A good trick is to get a car with a minor fault that is easy to fix - our boot doesn't stay up on its own. We could have fixed it, but a bit of wood wedged in does the job. Of course, the fact that it has this problem means that the car was a lot cheaper than it should have been!

Bahney

09-07-2008, 10:33 AM

i am in a similar position now if i am honest, i have always gone for 5-7k cars, currently owning a fiat coupe 2.0ltr which i paid 6.5k for 3 years ago, i am selling that this weekend for 3k and i am getting a banger for sub 500quid.

the car itself has cost me about 1600 on insurance over the three years, and about 1000 in cambelt/tyres/services etc and i have done about 25k in it,

expencive motoring you say...well i agree but i would not change that for the world, this car was my dream car i adore it and still do, it is a pleasure to drive and has been a pleasure to own and iam going to be gutted that i have to sell it (can't justify the cost's anymore)

my point is that yeah it is great owning a banger and saving lots of money but dont scoff at those who have sacrificed a lot to have something that they have dreampt of for years or have worked extra hard to get, it is there money to spend and there choice what to spend it on. i dont mean to start an arguement or anything but i think it is always good to try and see it from the other side every now and then :)

i will be officially joining the banger club in the next week...arraaagghh! what will i do with all that extra cash..ohh yeah pay off the mortgage, lol

adrianlowes

09-07-2008, 10:39 AM

I am seriously considering going down this line. My current car is a Kia Sedona as I have a mobile Disco business so it is handy for carrying equipment and I use it to go to work and back for my full time job. Problem is with the 2.9L engine it isn't very good on fuel for my commute. considering getting a small van for the Disco and a banger to go to work and back. The thing I would ask is how good do the insurance quotes come out on the bangers. Presumably you all only insure the 3rd party. I would have to start a new policy with 0% no claims as I would be using my existing no claims o the van.

anewman

09-07-2008, 10:43 AM

Presumably you all only insure the 3rd party. I would have to start a new policy with 0% no claims as I would be using my existing no claims o the van.
I'm insured third party fire theft as the price is cheaper than for third party only, not sure why but no point paying more for less cover.

My current car is a Kia Sedona as I have a mobile Disco business so it is handy for carrying equipment
A good car for you could be a Skoda Felicia Estate. The rear seats can be removed easily without any tools and the boot space on it's own is rather big.

stress_head

09-07-2008, 10:52 AM

I have a 1998 1.8 Mondeo LX which I paid £1200 for 2 years ago with 65K miles. Complete with all the goodies I could wish for - air con, quick clear windscreen, CD player, remote locking, full service history. Also the previous owner was called Norman, not a name I associate with boy-racers! so it was well looked after.

I've done 30K (mostly work miles @ 40p per mile) and never had a break down. The only out lay has been on a set of front disks (~£20) and a new battery (~£80). I service it myself and it has sailed through 2 MOT's.

One point I noticed when looking for my "banger" was that larger cars tend to be cheaper than medium and small ones. I imagine this is due to availability, ex-fleet cars tend to be larger. And also there is probably higher demand for small/medium cars for new drivers and "run arounds". This is great for me as I prefer larger cars and enjoy the comfort on the motorway.

I used to look for Diesel engined cars but now find that Petrol is cheaper in the long run. Partly due to higher fuel cost, but also the equivalent car in a diesel engine seemed to be around £300-£500 more expensive than the petrol, I figured I would have to do alot of miles to recoup this in fuel economy. My mondeo usually gets around 35-39 MPG anyway.

I agree that Japanese and German cars are more reliable, but parts also tend to be more expensive if you do want to repair. I Stick to Ford or Vauxhall - parts are cheap, widely available new or at scrap yards.

mbb123

09-07-2008, 10:57 AM

i do similar in that i look for a decent low milage car in the £500-700 range
and run it into the ground. current car a vauxhall corsa cheap to run 45 mpg cost £600 4 1/2 years ago and should i sell it on worth about £300 now. all i have spent over the time is new tyres (7 i think @aboiut £40 each) 2 lots of brakes 1 when i bought it and another just a month ago, and a few new light bulbs rear break keeps going every 6 mths or so prob a small fault but much cheaper to spend 60p on a new bulb than to fix electrical probs, most to get through mot`s.
pay garage twice a year to change oil used to be £30 but recently £40 far too messy a job for me and change spark plugs air filters myself.
over the 4 1/2 yrs inc mot fees & depreciation spent aprox £800

GoodOlAl

09-07-2008, 10:58 AM

Well, he did fix the boot lock as well (I had it held shut with a bungee cord) and the MOT was £50.

Mind you, it will probably break severely now ...

AND

Thanks for that excellent link:T - had no idea there was a book!

I do seem to have brought a number of people out of the woodwork - congrats to all you cheap motoring fans :beer:
You've brought me out of the woodwork to say the going rate for an MoT around here is £29.95; did you shop around?

Also, don't believe everything about German reliability.
Some 6 months before a continental driving holiday I part-exchanged my elderly Alfa that had proved 100% reliable for a much newer & reputedly famously reliable VW Passat with a FSH.
I should have been warned when after a month's trouble-free ownership the VW broke down time after time with a series of small defects that I told myself were worth repairing.
The last straw was during the holiday I'd bought the car for, in the Mt Blanc Tunnel between France & Italy ...
The AA shipped the dead car back to the dealer.
Wish I'd kept the Alfa, i would be a classic now, unlike any Passat.

Mikiboy

09-07-2008, 11:07 AM

being a motorcyclist, I am not keen on paying a lot for a car.
In the last 10 years, I paid £2200 for an escort este which I hated as it was the non turbo diesel without power steering. I owned it 6 years and hardly spent anything on it apart from consumables and windscreens. My worst MOT was £130. I put on about 70k in that time. I wanted something more comfortable as i was doing a lot of Scottish runs, so I sold it for £425 with MOT and tax and nothing wrong with it.
I then paid £400 for a dieslel Granada which I love. 1st day out in it the water pump packed up. £80. 2 years down the line I replaced the whole exhast system which should have had a catalic convertor on it but wouldnt fit so that cost me £260. I have replaced tyres a couple of times. My most expensive MOT was about £90. I replaced the battery for £40 with a HD but it had been in the car years. I bust my leg so the car stood for 8 months in the garage. I fitted the new battery. 1st turn, it started without touching the accelorator.
MOT passed 1st time. That is a 1st for me ever in over 20 years of driving.
I have just had the arches done and am having the fuel tank replaced. I dont mind spending a bit on the car as I really like it and its been very good.
It had a full service history when I bought it, and I have it oil and filtered regulary.
My Mate has a 3 year old Gold DTI and his 1st MOT was over £330. he does spend money on it. Its £50 for the oil alone on that before you add labour and filter.
He spends more on his in a year, than me both doing similar mileages and his is more ecconomical, but mine is twice the size.
I hope to keep my Granny a few years yet!

daisy_digger

09-07-2008, 11:23 AM

Just like to say that I and my other half have only ever had bangers and have been able to do a lot more with the money we have saved, holidays mainly.
At the moment I have an Astra Estate which I have had for 3 yrs, paid £500 with a full history, I have only had to spend on it this year and that was less than £100, it does good MPG and has never let me down yet ( fingers crossed) all power to the banger!

purplegrape

09-07-2008, 11:32 AM

This sounds like a great idea, the only thing that puts me off is that whilst the car will obv have to pass an MOT so is 'safe' from that point of view, the main difference I notice between new cars and old is the brakes and braking distances - makes them feel unsafe for me. (Am basing my experience on a 1984 Polo, so perhaps a little unfair...)

Does anyone have any thoughts on this in terms of make, etc?

golddustmedia

09-07-2008, 11:34 AM

Personally I try to go for no cost motoring!

I have a good look at what cars are popular and retain their value and rarely depreciate in value.

Then buy the best value one you can find.

For example a Passat TDi estate is always popular and barely changes in value at all.

I bought a 97 R reg one for £2200 with a new 12 month MOT. Drove it for 25,000 miles spending only normal wear and tear costs (a pair of tyres, couple of bulbs) then it passed it's MOT a year later first time.

Sadly my wife bashed it into a rock on dartmoor breaking the front bumper which I replaced with a similar (but not identical) colour one on ebay for £60.

However despite the higher mileage and different bumper I sold the car in less than a week for my original purchase price of £2200.

This is something I've repeated over and over for years and I've learnt a few lessons;

Never buy a ford. They rust at 3 years old and lose their value quickly.
Unpopular colours may be a good buy but can be hard to sell. Unless it's a sporty car avoid yellow and always avoid pink/purple/brown or vivid colours!
Vauxhalls are often unreliable but it's really hit and miss. Had a 54 reg Meriva that had a new engine AND gearbox before it reached 8k miles!
Reliable family cars, especially estates, are always in demand. An 8 year old Volvo estate makes a great deal.
Nobody wants to buy a Rover anymore. As such if buying a car you intend to sell in the future avoid any company that isn't doing well. Anyone with sense avoided buying a new or high value Rover for a good 2 years before they folded. You could see it coming and their values plummeted when the news broke.

emmigrant-immigrant

09-07-2008, 11:46 AM

I made a profit on my old banger. My sister gave me a 16 year old vauxhall Nova, I had a crash, and was given 350 pounds as a write off settlement, fixed it up with a bit of panel beating, then sold it 2 years later for 200 pounds. In that time I replaced the battery, brake pads exhaust (full system from kwik fit 30 pounds) and the head gasket went, but I stopped as soon as I saw the temp start to rise, let it cool down and topped fluids up. Luckily I knew the car really well by this point, so knew something was wrong as soon as the needle started moving and didn't damage the engine. Maintenance was a combo of me, fantastic father and garages when they worked out cheapest. It is definitely worth learning to do some maintenance yourself.

:j

sturose

09-07-2008, 12:01 PM

pukkamum

09-07-2008, 12:12 PM

wow i love this thread i was beginning to think my dh and i were the only people who buy old bangers, it really beggars belief that people who strugle with bills every month and who like my dh's best friend never has any money to go on days out, holidays etc are willing to shell out £300+ a month on 2 brand new cars!!! We bought our r reg mondeo for £700 two years ago it sailed through the first mot and last time had to have new tyre etc coming to around £180 so under a grand for a car for two years i know people who spend that on hp on brand new cars in six months!!!! When i was young only rich people had brand new cars they just weren't for the 'normal' people!! I was only commenting to my dh the other day how when we were young you would hear every winter the sound of ignitions turning over and over in the morn trying to get the car started!!! I miss that!!!!

flyingflea

09-07-2008, 12:15 PM

I have a 1992 Peugeot 205 which cost me £100 when I passed my test. It does 50mpg round town (the way I drive it ;)) and last year cost me £150 to insure and I was 21! I service it each year myself which costs £25-£30 and all repairs are usually fairly cheap and simple to carry out (all mechanically based, no computer to reset!)

I'm currently looking for a new car but I'm struggling to find something which is as economical to run! I like the new shape mini coopers but don't like how they only do about 35mpg unless you get a diesel.

spoyser

09-07-2008, 12:27 PM

kazrak

09-07-2008, 12:32 PM

Just a quickie, i use the £400 then scrap at first repair principal and have just scrapped a car locally that was probably not going to make it through the mot...i got over £100 for the thing in scrap!!!!!! Therefore, even less expense.

pukkamum

09-07-2008, 12:39 PM

Timbolla

09-07-2008, 1:07 PM

I have looked at bangernomics over the years and for me it does not make sense as I am mechanically inept and I need a reliable car for work.
My first car was a Skoda Estelle which cost me £150 (plus services) and I got £400 part ex two years later when I upgraded, which was the best value car I had as all the others have cost me money. I have been driving for 20 years I have had 6 cars and never spent more than £4000 on any of them. I have been lucky and all have never needed any unexpected major mechanical repairs (YET). The way I look at the cost of my cars is purchase cost plus major repairs and if it costs me more than £80 per month for the time I own it I have not done well.
My current vehicle was only 3 years old when I bought it and cost me £4000. It is a Mondeo Diesel 6 speed estate and had 152,000 on the clock and a FSH when I bought it. I do less than 8000 miles a year so the longer I keep it the more average the mileage becomes. I bought it with my eyes open as I did research and found that the major issue would be a new clutch, hence 18 months post purchase I have a new clutch and flywheel at £900 fitted. This may sound like I have spent a lot of money compared to others who have bought real bangers, but as the engine is good for 250,000 I have potentially a good 5 to 7 years left before I need to look for another one. Without any further major mechanical repairs I think the car will have cost me between £550 and £700 per year and if it does not expire when I think it could I will keep it running. In the mean time I am now saving for the next car and putting the money in my mortgage offset savings account.

tomstickland

09-07-2008, 1:09 PM

the main difference I notice between new cars and old is the brakes and braking distances - makes them feel unsafe for me. (Am basing my experience on a 1984 Polo, so perhaps a little unfair...)

Does anyone have any thoughts on this in terms of make, etc?
The old polos had appalling brakes. Unservoed and not effective. Most cars from about 1988 on have good brakes. I'm talking about Mk2 Astras, M2 Golfs, and my 1991 BMW. I managed to lock the tyres up on all of them and you can't brake any harder than that.
Most modern cars have appalling brakes in my opinion - no feel at all, just an on/off action. The talk about compulsory brake assist makes me laugh too. We live in an age obsessed with the idea that there is a technological solution to every problem.

Davesnave

09-07-2008, 1:22 PM

The old polos had appalling brakes. Unservoed and not effective. Most cars from about 1988 on have good brakes. I'm talking about Mk2 Astras, M2 Golfs, and my 1991 BMW. I managed to lock the tyres up on all of them and you can't brake any harder than that.
Most modern cars have appalling brakes in my opinion - no feel at all, just an on/off action. The talk about compulsory brake assist makes me laugh too. We live in an age obsessed with the idea that there is a technological solution to every problem.

I find anti-lock brakes a bit scary, though I'm willing to believe they 'work' better. My last car had them and so does the present one, but the ordinary 'feel.' is OK.

I actually lost my last car when the garage couldn't finish a repair before the weekend, so they let me have the car back with a warning not to brake hard. I forgot, locked-up and went through the hedge! Still, it was blessing in disguise, as the same mechanic (normally OK) had ruined the suspension by 'renewing' it earlier and I'd hated the car ever since!

orlwaysbroke

09-07-2008, 1:55 PM

HA - amateurs ...

A couple of years back the local VW dealership used to have a sales manager with a sense of humour. Every now and then he'd flog the old banger tradeins for a packet of sweets, as this was cheaper than auctioning them.

Being really broke at the time I jumped at the chance of an A registered Renault 11, with under one months tax and test for a packet of Trebor mints.

I nipped down , paid the man, and went to my local garage.

For around £25 he MOT'd the banger and after I paid £10 for a partworn tyre and topped up the windscreen washer, I set off on a years motoring for peanuts.

The old girl didn't fail once.

(She moved to the car lot in the sky at the next MOT anniversary, as even I could see she was gonna cost a few bob to repair!!!)

Haven't managed it since, but £35.20 for a years motoring seems pretty good to me. :)

stevlee

09-07-2008, 2:00 PM

I definitely agree with japanese car, I had my 93 civic for 7 years now without a single break down other than caused by the old battery. Over the time I put 50k miles on it. It has never failed a single MOT in the years I have owned it. Only rust is on the door lock where a stupid thieve tried to break in a few years ago. I service the car myself, spark plug, fuel/air/oil filter and change oil myself, but leave any major items to the garage like exhaust. I have also owned a 95 Rover 216. Another perfect buy, despite the Rover badge, its actually a Honda engine and transmission under, so proven to be just as reliable until the radiator leaked and gf keeps driving therefore = head gasket :)
I will get a Honda and Toyota anyday if you want cheap motoring.

anewman

09-07-2008, 2:07 PM

I'm not sure I see the need for ABS brakes. My car has pressure regulating valves to prevent the rear wheels locking up (I guess most non-ABS cars do) and it seems that's all you really need to stop losing control seriously under heavy braking.

purplegrape

09-07-2008, 2:22 PM

The old polos had appalling brakes. Unservoed and not effective. Most cars from about 1988 on have good brakes. I'm talking about Mk2 Astras, M2 Golfs, and my 1991 BMW. I managed to lock the tyres up on all of them and you can't brake any harder than that.
Most modern cars have appalling brakes in my opinion - no feel at all, just an on/off action. The talk about compulsory brake assist makes me laugh too. We live in an age obsessed with the idea that there is a technological solution to every problem.

Well that makes sense! I remember when I had it I needed to break almost double to time before any other car I've driven and even then it always felt like luck that I'd stopped in time!! :shocked: (Thankfully, I always did!)

I did love her though... despite her flaws. :rolleyes:

So a post 1988 car, gotcha!

Wig

09-07-2008, 2:24 PM

I hope you get at least £50 from the scrap man for your cars. Round here, it's £50 picked up and towed away, and £70 if you drive it to the scrappy.

Lomond12

09-07-2008, 3:11 PM

Wing mirrors on my 1998 Citroen Xsara had been patched many times and were in desperate need of replacement (very narrow driveway - keep banging gateposts!). As car now using a lot of oil and will prob have to be replaced in the next year I obviously didn't want to spend much on them. Tried local scrap yards but no joy. Couldn't find any on e-Bay or Gumtree.

Then I found the website http://www.1stchoice.co.uk/ while trawling around. Type in what you're looking for, they send request to 250+ scrap yards, and you then get no obligation quotes. Best quote I got was £58 for 2 incl VAT and delivery. Phoned up and said I didn't want to pay more than £50. Accepted at once. Wish I'd said £40! Mine came within 2 days from company called FAS and they were in perfect condition. Looked like new. A friend has since used 1st Choice for back light cover for her Galaxy with same result.

Princess Coupon

09-07-2008, 3:28 PM

When going for MOT/repairs if the car needs a part or even break pads etc I always get the price for the part and fitting seperate then check on the net to see if I can buy the part cheaper myself and get the garage to fit it or hubby fit it if it's simple I have in the past saved over £100 buying my own bushes.

anewman

09-07-2008, 3:39 PM

A brake servo for my car part was £200 from dealers. Managed to pick up a non-genuine one for £60 online. Still got to get around to fitting it.

colnor

09-07-2008, 3:49 PM

I've always driven SAAB's which are 10 years plus old. I find that they are very reliable at high millages and spare second hand parts are freely available via sites like breakerlink. I only get 40 p per mile if i use my car at work which all goes towards fuel. My colleages with newer cars have the depreciation effect that work related driving causes. Avoid SAAB's with cruise control tho as they can suffer many electrical faults

Skintti

09-07-2008, 3:53 PM

Greetings bargain banger pickers!
Great to read so many stories and tips from fellow enthusiasts of low-cost motoring. It's not just internet auction sites and cheeky chappy 2nd hand car dealers who provide a useful source of cheap cars. A bit of network marketing can yield results.
Following a referral from a friend of a butcher's dog's previous owner's sister's hairdresser's dad etc, I obtained a 1993 Proton Persona XLi (oh yes) last September, 75k miles, one careful owner, from a pensioner who has been supplementing his meagre state benefit by reselling old cars for cash at a small margin which local dealers (notably those offering low-end new vehicles like Hyundai/Kia) obtain as PX and see no value in using up valuable forecourt space to promote. Purchase price £250. Blimey, it cost more to insure! To date, I have completed 15k miles of trouble-free driving and still return a profit on company mileage expenses of 14ppm despite the oil price hike!!
I understand such unofficial car sales intermediaries operate across the UK and probably network with each other. It's just a question of mentioning anecdotes like this in conversation with people down pubs, gyms etc and I bet someone emerges from the shadows with a contact.
Skintti

jdavtz

09-07-2008, 4:16 PM

anewman

09-07-2008, 4:21 PM

I have some doubt you would consistently get 60mpg with an Aygo.

Archway Designs

09-07-2008, 4:25 PM

I've been using Bangernomics for years now. I have to park on the main road and over the years I have had varing incidents happen to my cars, ranging from a ditched boyfriend kicking my car door, 7 series BMW, cost £600 and my excess was £250! through to a drunk driver hitting 3 cars before mine and then causing £3500 worth of damage. So after the Beemer I decided to only buy cheap cars. Also, to date, only one incident out of 7 was insured and that was a fire engine!
Cars bought were a Mazda 626, 135K on the clock, £325 to buy, 26K miles later in 12 months and sold it for £300 with a new MOT costing £75. All I spent was a set of tyres.
Next was a 320i BMW, 105K on the clock, £525 paid. Had it for 2 years, did 30K miles. It did break a rocker arm but the local garage fixed it for £100. Then the fire engine reversed into the rear door. Insurance payout was £800, 2nd hand door cost £100 with fitting and 'respray'. Sold it for £350.
Current car is a mercedes 300CE, not quite bangernomics as it cost £1000, but that was two years ago and apart from general running costs its still going strong and has over 200k miles on it.

mabon

09-07-2008, 4:31 PM

Hi,
I have always bought old cars most I have every spent is £500. Best buy was Vauxhall astra for £150 it lasted me four years cost me about £200 in total for repairs and not only was reliable for everyday commuting it also went up to inverness in Scotland from Surrey and back again three times and down to devon about eight times! I do any easy repairs myself, I am no mechanic and am always ringing my dad up about how to do things.
Old cars are definatly the way to go for me!

jdavtz

09-07-2008, 4:33 PM

I have some doubt you would consistently get 60mpg with an Aygo.

Since I started driving with half a thought to fuel economy, I've definitely averaged over 60mpg.

My overall average over almost 35000 miles is 59mpg since buying the car, but here's the graph of my last 4500 miles where I've been trying to save a bit of money by driving economically:
(mpg on the left, miles on the bottom)
http://i36.tinypic.com/1zft0dd.jpg

Furey

09-07-2008, 4:54 PM

chrisnorden

09-07-2008, 5:08 PM

Probably all just boasting now, but like most of you, I've been doing this for 12-15 years.
I like big cars, preferably automatic, and "unpopular" with the general buying public. Usually find that company cars go that way, which have been well maintained initially, and all the depreciation has gone.

Currently running a '97 Nissan QX 2litre V6. Comfortable, most of the toys, which all work - paid £600. 2 MOT's cost £250, with new discs and pads.

32mpg on a run at 70-75mph (400 mile - 8 hour trip to Aberdeen about every 6 weeks)
Also I can take the dogs to the park in it - the upholstery cleans up well, and if & when I want to sell it, it will either go as a runner or sell the parts, which are in short supply, simply because they are so reliable.

What's depreciation??

Fancy a Citroen C6 next - value drops like a stone, but the Renault Vel Satis may be more achievable sooner. All £30000 cars to start with!!

Archway Designs

09-07-2008, 5:32 PM

Something worth considering, which may or may not make a difference to your final calculations, is petrol costs:

Using £1.20/litre for petrol as a rough guide.
A old banger doing 40mpg (maybe optimistic) will cost 13.6p/mile in fuel.
A newer car (e.g. my Toyota Aygo, 3yrs old) does over 60mpg, but using 60mpg for easy maths costs 9.1p/mile.

Using the original poster's 20000 miles/year that's and extra £900/year in fuel costs.

A 3yo Aygo might be about £3000. Three £500 bangers to cover the three years would be £1500. Three years of fuel would be £8160 for the banger, but only £5460 for the 60mpg Aygo.

Total cost over 3 years:
Bangers: £9660
Aygo: £8460

And the newer car would be much less likely to have expensive repairs required, only costs £20/year in road tax, and is in lowest insurance group (1E), and is probably significantly safer if you end up in a crash.

Worth a thought, anyway!

My Mercedes 300CE, £1000 two years ago, 30+mpg on runs 25mpg in town, no significant faults for a 1991 car with 200K plus miles, fully comp insurance including business use is only £230pa and its still probably worth £1000 and I know which car I'd rather be in if there's an accident, actually I'd rather be in my Merc any day of the week. Plus cheapest Aygo on Autotrader, Ebay, Exchange and Mart or Gumtree seems to be about £5k! And where do the golf clubs go in an Aygo?

Archway Designs

09-07-2008, 5:54 PM

Old Beamers, polo's and audi's are a good buy as well. see the connection here? vorsprung durch technik! built like houses in the 80's/90's! most mercedes will kill you on parts prices though.

i'm pretty passionate on this subject as bangernomics was a big part in helping me turn from having 15k bad debt to having a 12k house deposit sat in a ISA.

My Merc running parts are reasonably cheap, 4 new discs from Euro Car Parts were only £60. I had to replace the rotor arm cam follower, this was £10 from Euro and only £12 from Merc dealership. An indicator lense was only £10 including coloured bulb from Euro. So far the cost of parts has been very reasonable. Also many jobs seem easy to diagnose and do DIY, can the same be said for newer cars? The average garage hourly rate seems to be about £50. An A Class Merc had a gearbox control box go wrong, £400!!! and the car was only 4 years old! A replacement ignition key cylinder for A Class was only £50 but it cost £200 labour.
By buying old 'bangers' can we claim we are doing our bit for recycling rather than the environmental cost of the manufacturer making a new car?

mike_paterson

09-07-2008, 5:56 PM

With some old classics - mg midgets etc. you can buy them, insure them as a classic (very low cost) and then sell them years later for the same or more than you paid for them. This is worth considering especially if you can follow the basic servicing plans detailed in a Haynes manual. You also can have the fun of joining the local club and meeting fellow owners.

Another option is the kitcar route. You can often pick these up for peanuts and again insurance is next to nothing. I used to have a westfield that did 0-60 in around 5 seconds, Insurance was less than £100 per year. I sold it for what I paid for it after 3 years and lots of smiles.

Archway Designs

09-07-2008, 6:01 PM

Since I started driving with half a thought to fuel economy, I've definitely averaged over 60mpg.

My overall average over almost 35000 miles is 59mpg since buying the car, but here's the graph of my last 4500 miles where I've been trying to save a bit of money by driving economically:
(mpg on the left, miles on the bottom)
http://i36.tinypic.com/1zft0dd.jpg

Hands up to anyone else who keeps this kind of record for their fuel consumption http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/images/icons/icon4.gif

Furey

09-07-2008, 6:18 PM

My Merc running parts are reasonably cheap, 4 new discs from Euro Car Parts were only £60. I had to replace the rotor arm cam follower, this was £10 from Euro and only £12 from Merc dealership. An indicator lense was only £10 including coloured bulb from Euro. So far the cost of parts has been very reasonable. Also many jobs seem easy to diagnose and do DIY, can the same be said for newer cars? The average garage hourly rate seems to be about £50. An A Class Merc had a gearbox control box go wrong, £400!!! and the car was only 4 years old! A replacement ignition key cylinder for A Class was only £50 but it cost £200 labour.
By buying old 'bangers' can we claim we are doing our bit for recycling rather than the environmental cost of the manufacturer making a new car?thats good that merc parts can be found for a good price now. was just going off my grandads old 190E, years back his spares costs were nasty. my mum has an A class, i agree its a joke. nice to drive but you cant even see the engine let alone work on it. and it needs work far too often.

and i definately agree with it being recycling. new cars must take a massive amount of energy to produce, yet there are plenty of usable cars going to the scrappy every day. but the govornment is hardly going to discourage you giving your hard earned to car manufacturers so it conviniently ignores the environmental benefits of used cars in the same way it fobs off the enviromental and traffic congestion benefits of motorbikes because of the perceived safety implications.

anewman

09-07-2008, 6:20 PM

Hands up to anyone else who keeps this kind of record for their fuel consumption http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/images/icons/icon4.gif

http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/ is a good site for keeping such records :beer: not only of fuel consumption but also repair costs and so on. The only annoying thing is it converts amounts you input into euros.

tomstickland

09-07-2008, 6:24 PM

A old banger doing 40mpg (maybe optimistic) will cost 13.6p/mile in fuel.
A newer car (e.g. my Toyota Aygo, 3yrs old) does over 60mpg, but using 60mpg for easy maths costs 9.1p/mile.
You could be running an "old banger" 1.1 Citroen AX at 60mpg, or buy a new Zafira 2.0 Turbo and return 22mpg.
So I don't see why you assume that an old car with do worse mpg than a new one.
Someone buying the old AX or 106 etc would be returning the same mpg as the Aygo and only spend a few 100 on it in the first place.

Meanwhile I achieve 38mpg from an old BMW which is better real world results than people manage in much newer Focuses (because it's lighter and smaller).

Paul Varjak

09-07-2008, 7:17 PM

I have a Motability car on lease because of a disability. Users of this scheme can drive up to 60,000 miles over the three year lease without incurring an mileage surcharge.

But I do around 12,000 miles over three years and efectively susbsidise higher mileage users as I get no rebate for doing under 60,000 miles.

Being disabled I don't want a vehicle that will break down, and older cars are simply not as safe as modern cars in an accident. One option, for people like me, is to get a three year-old car (perhaps an ex-Motability lease vehicle) that still has a two year warranty remaining for peace of mind. At the moment I think that may limit me to a Hyundai, and some Daihatsu and Kia Models (unless anyone know different).

The Kia Cee'd is the best of all, now has a full 7 year warranty (which was backadated to the older Cee'd cars).

Of course, if you buy a second-hand car you need to make sure that any necessary servicing (including recalls) was done on the vehicle before you bought it to keep the warranty intact.

juux

09-07-2008, 7:22 PM

I'm firmly in the banger territory, running a '94 Mercedes 300TD (270,000 miles, 32mpg and about the biggest load area on the road) and a '94 Micra (72,000 miles, 45mpg and clean as a whistle). Great, cheap TCO motoring if you can handle running around in something slightly unfashionable.

The Merc in particular is a fantastic car, very relaxing to drive as it is so quiet and unfussed. The Micra is used for commuting and replaced a '95 diesel 106 which blew up (my fault!). If I wasn't doing about 10,000 motorway miles commuting every year I would definitely go for something big and thirsty as these, has already been said, are the real motoring bargains due to no-one wanting them. Big old French and Japanese cars are ridiculously cheap and yet perfectly reliable. Even surprisingly recent larger engined Mercs and BMWs are a pittance compared to their original sale price and can be picked up for under a grand and still come with things like full dealer service histories. If you're only doing 4-5,000 miles a year and are old and responsible enough for insurance costs not to be a concern, they are the only way to travel.

Getting good cars very cheap has become harder recently due to the rise in metal prices. I got £130 for the 106, and that was it being picked up and with a knackered engine. This has pushed prices upwards so that the days of plentiful decent cars under £500 has gone. There are still bargains to be had for around this mark though, the immaculate two-owner Micra was only £600 and feels like a new car.

Having said that, I did consider a brand new lease hire from Lings Cars as, although it would cost more, there is no doubt that a 2008 supermini is much safer than a 1994 one. The lack of risk in terms of maintenance and repair bills was also attractive.

TKPeters

09-07-2008, 7:40 PM

I buy cars from the auctions, normally spending between £3-4000 & most need servicing (Oil & Filters) Tax & MOT.

I then keep the car for a year, give it another service, Tax & MOT again & then sell it for a nice profit (£1500 on a 52 plate Seat Leon TDi 130, after expenses including insurance) which basically means I've not paid for any running costs for a car in the last 6 years.

before hollywood

09-07-2008, 8:02 PM

One more way to potentially cut the cost of motoring is to get an old person (no offence) as a named driver on your insurance. I recently added my father-in-law (58) to my insurance and was pleasantly surprised when the cost went down!

Third-party insurance isn't necessarily a good thing either.

A number of years ago when I was in my early 20s I drove into a wall, the car had to be lifted out of the wall using lifting gear and then transported home on a car transporter costing me £250. The difference between 3rd party and fully comp was £60!!

The moral of this story: Make sure you check the actual cost of both before opting for the cheaper one as it might be false economy!!
my dad gets named on mine, he has his own car with my mum but borrows mine once or twice a month (used to drive my old car practically every day)
it rarely costs any more to put him on (he is 52) and often costs less, last time i worked it out, it cost £2.50 for a years fully comp named on my insurance, have been with the same insurers a few years now (can't get lower renewals) so he just stays on

i was an ex bangernomics driver, sold my car for £495 having bought it 2 years earlier for £470 and buying 2 new tyres (£40 the pair) and servicing it with motor factor parts every year. i now have a 6 year old fiat and am horrified it has lost 2 and a half grand in 4 years :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

anewman

09-07-2008, 8:14 PM

Being disabled I don't want a vehicle that will break down, and older cars are simply not as safe as modern cars in an accident.

I imagine with the breakdown companies they'd come to you first? Well I know they go to lone women first anyway. Some old cars can be more reliable than new cars. IMO it depends largely on servicing and care the car receives.

I remember seeing a program on TV that showed new "safe" cars, while keeping you safe, present increased danger to other road users. In an accident with 2 old "unsafe" cars where previously both parties walk away unharmed, change one car to a new "safe" car and the people in the old car are more likely to be injured or killed, due to the rigidity of the "safe" car.

See http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ygYUYia9I

lincolnscot

09-07-2008, 8:25 PM

Having spent fortunes on thousand pound cars, okay expected for Renault and the Serena had a hard life prior to my care.

Anyway I now have a mondeo M reg, with 128K bought for £300 in April, have spent £200 so far on brake pipes and gaskets, but car now has MOT and is running well, so much so that I now may change spark plugs!

This car is ultra reliable my friend has had one for several years and when our mechanic friend mentioned servicing my friend looked at him blankly, in truth he has never done anything to the car in all the time he has owned it - result no ownership costs.

I would recommend going for the unfashionable cars, the Serena was a bargain compared to the alternative Renault / Fords, but too expensive for this topic.

MiserlyMartin

09-07-2008, 9:12 PM

I've often thought about running a stream of bangers, but whenever I think about changing my car I keep thinking about this:

1. I know my car. Its history and what has been replaced over the last 4 years and what is likely to need doing. If I bought a banger I would have no clue what would go wrong or need doing in the next year - it could be expensive.

2. Road tax on my car is £115 as its a band C 2001 car. This is likely to go down if they have their way with the new tax bands. But a banger after Gordon the Morons new tax banding is likely to cost you more than the car is worth just to tax the thing!

3. Current car does about 50 MPG on average it being a diesel. Older cars in general were not as fuel efficient. There are a few exceptions though. Peugeot 106 1.5 D's were very good so were Citroen AX's. But mine is a bigger car and it does 50 MPG. Diesel small cars -Yaris, Clios and 206's do about 60MPG apparently

Only pros I'd say is that you have pretty much zero depreciation running bangers.

Ginger Nuts

09-07-2008, 9:52 PM

Something worth considering, which may or may not make a difference to your final calculations, is petrol costs:

Using £1.20/litre for petrol as a rough guide.
A old banger doing 40mpg (maybe optimistic) will cost 13.6p/mile in fuel.
A newer car (e.g. my Toyota Aygo, 3yrs old) does over 60mpg, but using 60mpg for easy maths costs 9.1p/mile.

Using the original poster's 20000 miles/year that's an extra £900/year in fuel costs.

A 3yo Aygo might be about £3000. Three £500 bangers to cover the three years would be £1500. Three years of fuel would be £8160 for the banger, but only £5460 for the 60mpg Aygo.

Total cost over 3 years:
Bangers: £9660
Aygo: £8460

And the newer car would be much less likely to have expensive repairs required, only costs £20/year in road tax, and is in lowest insurance group (1E), and is probably significantly safer if you end up in a crash.

Worth a thought, anyway!

Suppose your figures would be even more entertaining if you include cost of finance and depreciation. And reports are already appearing of transmission oil leaks, Water leaks into load area via extractor vent. Have also been water leaks into load area and rear via misfitted rear door and hatch seals or rear light seals, failing timing belt tensioners, which is a roller bearing device like the idler pulley, but with a reddish rubber/nylon damper. Gates cambelt kits include this part. Wise also to replace waterpump which it driven by the timing belt. Also seeing as the diesel does 68 mpg in controlled circumstances, your figures for working out how many miles to the gallon you are doing are way way outta belief. How many litres does your car take to fill to the neck, how many miles do you do and then refill to the neck again, this is really the only way you will get a true reading. :rotfl:

GhostHunter

09-07-2008, 10:04 PM

Paul Varjak

09-07-2008, 10:09 PM

I imagine with the breakdown companies they'd come to you first?

I think that is true, yes

Some old cars can be more reliable than new cars.

When I looked at the Which? reports a couple of years back I noted that newer Nissans and Volkswagens are less reliable than they used to be, wheras Fiat and Ford are becoming more reliable.

I remember seeing a program on TV that showed new "safe" cars, while keeping you safe, present increased danger to other road users. In an accident with 2 old "unsafe" cars where previously both parties walk away unharmed, change one car to a new "safe" car and the people in the old car are more likely to be injured or killed, due to the rigidity of the "safe" car.

That is a very interesting and even more reason not to buy an old banger!

Look here for a test between a new and 9 year-old Renault Espace:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3l4YBf2tjag&feature=related

I am looking for a Supermini next time and the only Supermini (prior to 2005) that has a 5 star Euro NCAP safety rating is a Renault Modus.

Ginger Nuts

09-07-2008, 10:18 PM

Hello Ginger Nuts Welcome newbie to MSE. ;) :D

:eek:

Thanks for the welcome, been reading and not contributing for a long time:D Just couldnt let those figures stand there:rotfl:

Ginger Nuts

09-07-2008, 10:20 PM

I think that is true, yes

When I looked at the Which? reports a couple of years back I noted that newer Nissans and Volkswagens are less reliable than they used to be, wheras Fiat and Ford are becoming more reliable.

That is a very interesting and even more reason not to buy an old banger!

Look here for a test between a new and 9 year-old Renault Espace:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3l4YBf2tjag&feature=related

I am looking for a Supermini next time and the only Supermini (prior to 2005) that has a 5 star Euro NCAP safety rating is a Renault Modus.

Perhaps trying to drive in a passive way would help more. Another view is that the safer cars are made, the more invincible people feel within them;)

gundo

09-07-2008, 10:33 PM

I have a 1998 1.8 Mondeo LX which I paid £1200 for 2 years ago with 65K miles...

...The only out lay has been on a set of front disks (~£20) and a new battery (~£80).

I have a 10 year old Mondeo 2.0LX which I bought at a car auction 5 years ago for £2.5k with 54k miles on it. It now has 109k miles on it and in that time has been pretty cheap to run. It's only let me down once and that was due to a dead 8 year old battery. I'm surprised yours cost £80, mine was £35 from a motor factors. It has never failed an MOT yet.

Insurance, tyres, mot and servicing set me back about £400 a year tops and the car still drives very well, smooth and quiet and gives me 38+mpg on long runs.

Buying a wreck every 6 months might work out cheaper but I hate buying cars and so tend to keep mine until the bitter end. I will definitely get my next car at an auction again as it was so much less hassle and more pleasant than dealing with slippery car salesmen.

big gay kirk

09-07-2008, 10:44 PM

bought a vauxhall cavalier mk 1 for thirty quid from the scrappy once... cost 25 quid for the mot, then a fiver for a new headlanmp unit to pass same... did it same day, so free retest... kept the car for three years.. didn't look brilliant, but i could squeeze 40mpg on a trip.. sold it for 50 quid... did 21,000 miles in it with no trouble... last car was a mk 5 cortina.. cost 250, had it for five years, driving everyday.. total parts cost over five years was about 150 quid... and that included buying a nearly complete car for spares.. trick is to do your own work.. lets be honest, what else would you be doing? watching "It Pays to Watch"????

must add.. for saying modern cars are supposedly more economic fuel wise, i always seem to buy less than my mates with modern rubbish... and my insurance has rarely been more than a hundred quid.... best so far was for the corty. 45 quid with fifty pounds cashback for fully comp... bargain!

Paul Varjak

09-07-2008, 10:56 PM

Perhaps trying to drive in a passive way would help more. Another view is that the safer cars are made, the more invincible people feel within them;)

You are already preaching to the converted. I took the IAM Advanced Driving Test 30 years ago and was a winner in an RAC driving safety competition.

I think you will find that the recognised term is 'defensive' driving; not only does it save lives but it also saves on fuel, brakes and tyres. But to be really effective, defensive driving requires other drivers to drive in a similar fashion; sadly, that is not always the case so I would always prefer to be in the safest vehicle possible.

anewman

09-07-2008, 11:04 PM

Look here for a test between a new and 9 year-old Renault Espace:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3l4YBf2tjag&feature=related

It's interesting to see old cars were tested by being smashed head on into a concrete wall, and the new cars being crashed somewhat like the 5th gear tests with a solid object only on one side.

For example http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4Utu4sA2qmI

Paul Varjak

09-07-2008, 11:27 PM

It's interesting to see old cars were tested by being smashed head on into a concrete wall, and the new cars being crashed somewhat like the 5th gear tests with a solid object only on one side.

For example http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4Utu4sA2qmI

Of course, the older tests were before NCAP existed. NCAP head-on crash tests involve what is a more typical 'offset' frontal collision. I think such tests help determine how well the forces created in a crash are distributed around the car. Those cars which are able to distribute these forces are those cars that are more likely to score highly in the NCAP tests.

aimharl

10-07-2008, 12:18 AM

Just thought I would post this link to the guy who wrote the Bangernomics book. http://cars.uk.msn.com/bangernomics Great to see this thread coming alive.

ratbagski

10-07-2008, 12:29 AM

My mate had a Fiat Tipo that failed its mot Thought that it wasnt worth selling so took it to the scrappy`s.
He went with a mate and took the wheel`s off ,thay take money off to dispose of,and he could not believe it when he got £148 for it. Result or what?
:beer:

georgevie

10-07-2008, 7:18 AM

was thinking of doing this myself - thanx 4 all the good advice!

dbs

10-07-2008, 11:07 AM

Tip from a garage - brush old engine oil on to the pipes, then they do not corrode.

Last mot a new young tester did car, he thought the pipes were leaking and called an experienced tester who new what I was doing. The pipes will stay good for years. Funnily enough garages do not do this on a routine service.

Keith

If your pipes have surface rust on just rub with fine emery paper should come off easy then use the old engine oil tip.

If rust does not come off easy this means rust embedded into the pipes or pipes are pitted they need replacing.

I have done this to previous cars with no problems.

daver74

10-07-2008, 12:16 PM

I've been doing 'bangernomics' since 1998 and it's worked out much cheaper for me. I purchase my cars at auction (you MUST have someone who knows cars with you) and aim to spend a mimimum amount on maintenance. At the moment I'm driving a 1995 Audi A4 bought for £800 last July. I've spent £54 on various bits in a year and it's just passed it's MOT with no problems. 175K with full service history is high miles but it's very reliable.

The most crucial money saving aspect though is doing all maintenance myself - this saves an absolute fortune. Use a Haynes manual once and you've probably saved the £15 it cost you in not taking it to the garage.

My last motor (a Renault clio) cost £900 at auction and I sold it for over £500 after 3 years. I only replaced the water pump and 2 tyres. It had to go as the forthcoming repairs would not have been economically viable.

The point about buying bangers is that the depreciation has already largely happened. It's also about attitude. A car to me is A to B and nothing else - I don't like the darn thing, I just have to have one and the cheaper the better. The bloke stuck in traffic in a Porsche always makes me laugh when I'm sat behind him. What is the point?

starkj

10-07-2008, 12:37 PM

jdavtz

10-07-2008, 12:48 PM

Suppose your figures would be even more entertaining if you include cost of finance and depreciation. And reports are already appearing of transmission oil leaks, Water leaks into load area via extractor vent. Have also been water leaks into load area and rear via misfitted rear door and hatch seals or rear light seals, failing timing belt tensioners, which is a roller bearing device like the idler pulley, but with a reddish rubber/nylon damper. Gates cambelt kits include this part. Wise also to replace waterpump which it driven by the timing belt. Also seeing as the diesel does 68 mpg in controlled circumstances, your figures for working out how many miles to the gallon you are doing are way way outta belief. How many litres does your car take to fill to the neck, how many miles do you do and then refill to the neck again, this is really the only way you will get a true reading. :rotfl:

Okay, I'm not (and I never was) saying an Aygo is definitely going to work out cheaper than several bangers, just that it's worth doing your own calculations as mpg makes a huge difference with current high fuel costs.

I'd not heard of those (presumably Aygo) faults, other than water leaking into load area (which hasn't happened to me), but are you saying an Aygo is more likely to have a fault than a random banger? If they're equally likely, then it's irrelevant.

Of course if you need to take finance to purchase the car that makes a big difference to the calculation.

Depreciation again doesn't matter in my calculation as I'm looking at total expenditure over say three years. If Aygo is still worth something at the end of the three years, that's a bonus!

Here are my fuel figures. I always fill up to the first automatic click off of the pump (95 RON Unleaded), almost always at the same petrol station.

Miles since fill Litres mpg=miles/(L*0.22)
409 28.41 65.4
471 32.60 65.7
412 30.86 60.7
446 30.38 66.7
428 27.95 69.6
415 29.35 64.3
470 29.69 72.0
257 18.03 64.8
466 31.43 67.4
358 25.91 62.8

Jimbob71

10-07-2008, 1:39 PM

I bought an old Ford Granada 11 years ago, i gave up driving it recently, not because it expired, i just got bored with it!!! it was showing no signs of letting up, it now has 150k+ miles on the clock, and only ever failed to get me home once! most expensive repair was £250 for a gearbox seal 4 years ago (the one time it failed to get me home), other than that just oil changes, light bulbs and tyres!

I now drive old American cars why? parts are in most cases less than 1/2 price of European and Japanese cars (even ordered online direct from the USA), mechanically (in most cases) they are very simple and easy to repair, i can get any part i need without visiting a main dealer, insurance is cheaper than European and Japanese cars, the road tax is the same. It is only the MPG that is more costly, but i do not make unesseary trips and i have learned how to drive efficiently. And they are supremely comfortable.

SunnySusie

10-07-2008, 2:12 PM

Think our 1st car is 11 years old by now. Was around £6k new iirc (actually it was used for test drives and had a scratch so we got a discount).

But anyway, that works out as £500 a year. Then service and MOT is about £200? I dont pay much attention but its normally about £100 each time. We had to change the tires and the thingmy watsit before that.

But all in all, im not sure we are too far over that £600 a year in the original post but with the reassurance that we know it's been well looked after and its never broken down. Touch wood! And without the hassle of having to go buy x number of cars every year. Buying the first one was stressful enough!

And, by what Ive read above, maybe we can get plenty more years out of it at that level of running cost. I'll post back here when it dies (I won't).

So isnt an alternative to buy a cheap car new, and look after it. At the end of the day, if you believe in efficient market theory, then the 2nd hand value of a car should reflect its usefulness. If £200 cars were really that great everyone would want them. And then guess what - they'd cost more than £200!

Of course there is a premium for getting a new car, but the trick there is to get something cheap from the start (ie a mass consumer car and not a "luxury" brand) and possibly something with a nice discount - we got a lot off for a little scratch! Try buying at the end of the year when the manager is trying to reach his sales targets! etc.

Ginger Nuts

10-07-2008, 2:20 PM

I noticed in one of the early post someone buying a used tyre for £20 from a scrapyard. You won't know the history of the tyre.

Spend an extra few quid on a new one, if your tyres don't work then the steering and brakes don't.

Right so in your case, every time you buy a used car you immediately renew all the tyres as you dont know the history of the tyres, nope no chance:rotfl:

Ginger Nuts

10-07-2008, 2:42 PM

Okay, I'm not (and I never was) saying an Aygo is definitely going to work out cheaper than several bangers, just that it's worth doing your own calculations as mpg makes a huge difference with current high fuel costs.

I'd not heard of those (presumably Aygo) faults, other than water leaking into load area (which hasn't happened to me), but are you saying an Aygo is more likely to have a fault than a random banger? If they're equally likely, then it's irrelevant.

Of course if you need to take finance to purchase the car that makes a big difference to the calculation.

Depreciation again doesn't matter in my calculation as I'm looking at total expenditure over say three years. If Aygo is still worth something at the end of the three years, that's a bonus!

Here are my fuel figures. I always fill up to the first automatic click off of the pump (95 RON Unleaded), almost always at the same petrol station.

Miles since fill Litres mpg=miles/(L*0.22)
409 28.41 65.4
471 32.60 65.7
412 30.86 60.7
446 30.38 66.7
428 27.95 66.7
415 29.35 69.6
470 29.69 64.3
257 18.03 72.0
466 31.43 67.4
358 25.91 62.8

I dont see how depreciation and finance costs dont matter, it makes a huge difference to figures like that, and hey ho, any car I have had always have some value left in them when I sell them on and I havent spent any more than £500 each on purchase in the last 4 years on cars, getting around two years out of each before selling on and theyre still driving around with other owners. Random faults are much more acceptable on a well used car rather than on a new car, i'd be more than miffed if I looked into the boot of my three year old car and found me cornflakes from the cheapy shop floating around in it after the boot started leaking;) And I think i'd have a little bit of trouble getting my kids, mum and her wheelchair and her groceries into an aygo tho:rolleyes: You really should contact Toyota and get them to check your car over, all the other ones that have been used in magazine and tv testing manage around 10mpg less than you get in normal driving, theirs must all be faulty:D And yes I agree, you do have to look into the use of the vehicle carefully and then decide on how you're gonna afford the running costs of it, no point in buying a 3.5ltr BMW for £500 and then find you cant afford the 20mpg petrol costs and £150 a week to fill it up. For you, running a new car works out, but for many, it's more a case of being seen with a new car that they really cant afford. Theres nothing wrong with a decent used car, and as pointed out in many other posts it wont mean having to spend thousands to buy one. :j

Ginger Nuts

10-07-2008, 2:45 PM

You are already preaching to the converted. I took the IAM Advanced Driving Test 30 years ago and was a winner in an RAC driving safety competition.

I think you will find that the recognised term is 'defensive' driving; not only does it save lives but it also saves on fuel, brakes and tyres. But to be really effective, defensive driving requires other drivers to drive in a similar fashion; sadly, that is not always the case so I would always prefer to be in the safest vehicle possible.

I know what defensive driving consists of, having also done my IAM test too many years ago to admit to:o But I stand by passive driving also, dont get your blood pressure up and cut people up and force them outta the way, just think ahead, take a deep breath and be much more passive in your attitude to others, peace brother:rotfl:

DuggyMak

10-07-2008, 3:29 PM

I have always bought, privately, low-mileage, one-owner older cars, and do my own routine servicing. Since my traditional local garage with proper engineers, who could actually fix things, closed 4 years ago, (which I used for MOT's for 25 years), I have taken my car to the Local Authority garage for its MOT. They aren't allowed to repair any faults so have no incentive to fail your car! (See Martin's article about"MOT Cost Cutting & Finding a Council MOT"):
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/cheap-mot#find

I bought my previous car, a 1987 Daihatsu Charade CX Automatic (1litre engine), from an elderly neighbour who couldn't face using it after his wife died. It was garaged for several years, only going out twice-a-month to keep everything turning over. I bought it for £3500 at five-years-old with only 6,500 miles but it was well worth paying slightly more than the Parker's guide price. It was immaculate inside and out and, to be honest, still looked like a six-month-old car.

Within a year, I put a completely new exhaust system on it, at National Tyres, for £84 including a £10 lifetime guarantee, because I knew I would be keeping the car. I eventually had several new exhaust parts, (basically 3 complete systems) free-of-charge and, in fact, the last time I had a rear silencer box fitted it would have cost more than the original complete system. Definitely the best £10 I ever spent! No wonder National stopped offering such a good deal. My journey to work was 1.5 miles and I regularly worked 12-14 hour days, six-days-a-week, so I didn't have much time to add mileage, apart from holidays.

After 10 years, with less than 40,000 miles, in which the only major problems were a couple of bodywork repairs to the rear wheel arches, I gave it to my sister-in-law as it was still in excellent condition and far too good to scrap which, at the time, would have cost me £50. It regularly returned over 45MPG, on mixed driving, 30+ in town and 50+ on the motorway. I would certainly have no problem buying another Japanese car or an automatic.

My sister-in-law used it for another 3 years, as their second car for local running, and spent very little to get it through its MOT's (I still did the routine servicing). Unfortunately, it was labour/welding costs that finally sent it to the scrapyard when it failed the MOT on its19th birthday, with less than 50,000 miles on the clock. By that time the value of scrap metal had increased and she got £60 for it!!!

I replaced it 5 years ago with a 1998 Rover 400 1.4 16V (27,000 miles) bought from an elderly relative who was no longer allowed to drive. So far, it has been excellent, despite all the horror stories you read about head gasket failures etc. I paid £2,900 (Parker's Guide price) and apart from replacing the front brake pads, for £35 last year, I have only had to buy the usual exhaust, tyres, battery etc. I buy a case of oil (4x4.5litres to get a good discount) and parts from Motor Factors. A genuine Unipart oil filter was only £3.60 last week, 4.5litres of quality Comma 10/40 oil works out at £8.25, an air filter is £5.50 and a set of spark plugs £10.

The cheapest place for quality tyres is Costco, if you are lucky enough to have a card. I don't have one so, unless I needed to buy two tyres, I wouldn't bother asking my brother to use his card for me. For one tyre, three or four phone calls to different local tyre companies results in amazing discounts if you only ask! Budget seem to be the most keen to discount and beat their competitors. Bearing in mind your only contact with the road, even in the best weather conditions, is 4 small patches of rubber it is stupid not to buy decent tyres. They don't have to be the big brand names. Is your life and other's really worth putting at risk to save a few pounds by buying second-hand ones?

Obviously, I am not running the cheapest of cars, compared to some of you, but then, so far, I haven't had the hassle of changing on a regular basis and my knowledge of the car increases with time. With a little TLC most cars will reward you with many years of reliable motoring.

One other benefit that lots of people are discovering is the cheaper road tax, compared to modern cars, after the government's ill-thought-out retrospective road tax changes.

Finally, I once worked with someone, about 10 years ago, who thought their garage still checked and inflated his tyres when they serviced his car - he hadn't bothered to check in over 2 years. I suggested I checked them for him and they were 15lbs psi instead of 30lbs psi. After I corrected them, he couldn't believe the difference, and his wife thought it was a new car the next time she drove it, not to mention the increased miles per gallon!

As they say "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Or, in this case, shear laziness to even carry out the most basic of checks. Tyres are considered to be dangerous if they are more than 3lbs psi under the recommended pressure and his were all 15 lbs psi under!!!

Flyingharpy

10-07-2008, 4:33 PM

Hi guys,

Been reading with interest, would you advise servicing your old cars to keep them in peak condition, or just MOTing them until they cost too much to pass?

Thanks!

Shell

Thunderbird

10-07-2008, 4:42 PM

would you advise servicing your old cars to keep them in peak condition, or just MOTing them until they cost too much to pass?
The minimum to keep the car in good condition would be an oil and filter change once a year and other filters and spark plugs every other year. MOT is not a substitute of a service!

anewman

10-07-2008, 4:43 PM

Servicing is always best to keep the car going and in good working order, with good MPG. But of course if something worries you about the car, like you think it's going to rust through and be too expensive to repair when it does, then I would run it into the ground until it fails MOT. Guess the only advice I can give is use your own judgement and perhaps ask the MOT tester if they think it will last. The absolute minimum I would do is change the oil, oil filter and air filter every year or so.

Paul Varjak

10-07-2008, 5:01 PM

I bought my previous car, a 1987 Daihatsu Charade CX Automatic (1litre engine), from an elderly neighbour who couldn't face using it after his wife died. It was garaged for several years, only going out twice-a-month to keep everything turning over. I bought it for £3500 at five-years-old with only 6,500 miles but it was well worth paying slightly more than the Parker's guide price. It was immaculate inside and out and, to be honest, still looked like a six-month-old car.

When I was looking at price guides I was amazed at how liitle an effect the mileage has on the value of a car; it seems that age is the overrriding factor.

I wish I had known you when I sold my three year old Fiat Punto automatic. I only got £3,000 for it!

Ginger Nuts

10-07-2008, 5:48 PM

The minimum to keep the car in good condition would be an oil and filter change once a year and other filters and spark plugs every other year. MOT is not a substitute of a service!

Well said, basic maintenance is essential in keeping your banger on the road, oil and air filter changes will help to keep it running sweet and cheaply and keep a listen out for strange noises;) Come MOT time, I never leave the car in previous to getting it done for a check up, I admit it, let them tell me exactly what needs done and work out if it's worthwhile;)

Frijj

10-07-2008, 6:41 PM

imo the undisputed king of cheap reliable cars is the 1.8 8v MK2 VW Golf. there is no correlation between cheap and unreliable if you pick the right car, and the MK2 golf is the right car. many mk2 golfs will be rolling around long after the brand new cars of today are on the scrap pile (seriously). theres no point in buying any abused piece of crap at a minescule price if its going to cost you for the spares when for a bit of hunting a little minter can be found. I have an 1988 1.8 Gti 8v MK2 VW Golf - cost £850 so far I've spent more than that on fixing it (I don't mind because I love it and I look at it as a hobby) but it has been the worst buy I've ever had. It seemed ok but a lot went wrong on it, one bit at a time. I should have just walked away but... hey ho. The bodywork is very good nic though and it all seemed fine when I bought it. It is easy to work on though, even for someone with little mechanical knowledge like me. It still starts first time and has never totally broken down, always limped home or to the garage.

Car before that, M reg 1.3 GL Toyota Corolla - best old car ever. Only got rid because it was a bit under powered for my trip to work with 2 other big blokes in it. You can get them very cheap too, I bought it for £570 sold it for £520 and only put 4 new tyres on it and an MOT (didn't legally require tyres but it needed them) Spent about £120 on it for the year. Started first time, every time, didn't need more than a sip of oil every 5k but wasn't great on fuel with my heavy foot and short journeys, although other people do a lot better.

Before that had an M reg Mk1 Mondeo 1.8TD funny but I got very attached to it, even though it was a bit boring. You can pick them up for sub £300 as ex taxis and not much goes wrong on them - but I lost my job so it had to go, couldn't tax it and live on a street. I drove over 1000 miles in a day in that car and it was fine, just like a big arm chair. Didn't need anything doing in a year other than the service / MOT which it needed a bulb and an oil change + filter. (~£80 all in for the year) Got for free of a family member, sold for £150 (needed to go quick as no tax, insurance and 3 day MOT) net +£70 on the year!!! [Apart from the tax and insurance]

If your thinking about an Aygo why not get a Citroen C1?
It's the same car, made in the same factory with the same engine just different badge (like the Pug 107) only the Citroen is cheaper. My Mum has an Aygo and they are very big inside although not much boot space (I can fit in the back with no problems and I'm 6'2"!) Plus with the bonus they are (I think) insurance group 1 - lowest possible so you will get the best deal on them.

For young drivers / money savers insurance is the killer, not the car. If you pay £50 for a car that costs £1200 per year to insure that is worse than paying £1200 for a car that costs £50 to insure as your insurance is only going to drop around £100 - £200 per year on the high cost one so if you keep the car for 3 years you still waste money. Or £200 and 3 points :mad: for no insurance although I wouldn't recomend that option!

TLDR: Get a Citroen C1 :D (if you can afford it)

PrinceGaz

11-07-2008, 2:45 AM

If you're prepared to live with a car which is ready for the scrapyard but has several months MOT remaining, an old episode of Top Gear I watched on Dave today shows you can buy a car for less than £100 which is still capable of performing adequately. Once you get down to that price level, you are under-cutting the amount legitimate dealers must pay to scrap the car to meet EU recycling laws, and it is in the dealer's interest to get an otherwise worthless traded-in car off their premises as cheaply as possible- even if that is £1, as that is better for them than having to pay to have it scrapped.

It'll be something no-one else wants, that's for sure, but there are bargains to be had which might well last for at least the duration of the MOT they come with. The moment something goes wrong with it (excluding all the electrical things which didn't work with it when bought) is the time to dispose of it. Given the above about disposal, some "inventive" way to dispose of it may be required to avoid it costing you.

Davesnave

11-07-2008, 5:15 AM

If you're prepared to live with a car which is ready for the scrapyard but has several months MOT remaining, an old episode of Top Gear I watched on Dave today shows you can buy a car for less than £100 which is still capable of performing adequately. Once you get down to that price level, you are under-cutting the amount legitimate dealers must pay to scrap the car to meet EU recycling laws, and it is in the dealer's interest to get an otherwise worthless traded-in car off their premises as cheaply as possible- even if that is £1, as that is better for them than having to pay to have it scrapped.

I think you may find that episode of 'Top Gear is' about as relevant to the current situation as 'Location, Location, Location' or 'Property Ladder' re-runs are. The price of raw materials is rocketing. That's not to say that dealers won't still be happy to sell on at a pretty low price, but it does mean that scrappers are paying again.

starkj

11-07-2008, 1:51 PM

"a used tyre for £20 from a scrapyard."

Try reading posts before being cheeky.

DuggyMak

11-07-2008, 8:20 PM

When I was looking at price guides I was amazed at how liitle an effect the mileage has on the value of a car; it seems that age is the overrriding factor.

I wish I had known you when I sold my three year old Fiat Punto automatic. I only got £3,000 for it!

Paul.

Remember with car guides, such as Parker's, you have to adjust the price listed for each year to take into account under/over average mileage.

Personally, given the choice between two unknown identical cars, I would choose the high-mileage motorway one rather than the local run-about with lots of stop/start journeys. (I have enjoyed both types over the years.) However, to me, a car's over-all condition, and fully documented history, is essential and a better guide.

Perhaps I should have clarified my "I bought it for £3500 at five-years-old with only 6,500 miles but it was well worth paying slightly more than the Parker's guide price." comment in my previous post repeated here:

(I bought my previous car, a 1987 Daihatsu Charade CX Automatic (1litre engine), from an elderly neighbour who couldn't face using it after his wife died. It was garaged for several years, only going out twice-a-month to keep everything turning over. I bought it for £3500 at five-years-old with only 6,500 miles but it was well worth paying slightly more than the Parker's guide price. It was immaculate inside and out and, to be honest, still looked like a six-month-old car.)

I was buying the car from an elderly neighbour who had meticulously waxed/polished/valeted it twice a year and I knew the history of it. Similarly my current car, which I bought from an elderly relative, had been meticulously serviced and looked after, in fact I took it for its first 3 MOT's. In both cases, I was happy paying slightly more than the Parker's Guide price because of the exceptional condition and history of the vehicles and my relationship to both owners. There is no way I would jeopardise such relationships to save some money, when the figure was fair to both parties. However, having said that, in any normal situation where I didn't know the seller I can assure you I would not be an easy touch as you would seem to imply.

To be honest, I wouldn't have been interested in your Punto or any other Fiat. I still remember the look of horror on the face of my cousin's friend, 30 years ago, when after proudly showing us his brand new Fiat (bought that day) he started it up to leave, just as it was beginning to get dark. I pointed out that some of his lights weren't working and, after investigating, I discovered the wiring loom was missing on the right-hand-side! Even the AA man, who came to his assistance, was dumbfounded by that one!

Finally, I have always been a keen haggler and managed to buy my first motorcycle, A 1964 Honda 90 Sports, in 1971, for £7.50 (yes you read that correctly!) . The previous teenage owner decided to service it and also stripped and cleaned the carburettor. Unfortunately, when he started it, it would only run for a few minutes before, eventually, conking out. Despite trying to trace and cure the problem for several months he was finally persuaded, by his frustrated mother, to get rid of it. When I stripped the carburettor I discovered that, amazingly, the choke barrel could be fitted upside down, therefore, explaining the difficult starting and eventual flooding of the engine. 30 minutes later, I had a perfectly reliable motorcycle, which I passed my test on and, after a few years, managed to get £30 for when I sold it to a friend. He thought he got it for a bargain price and also enjoyed many years use from what, initially, appeared to be a pile of junk!

Ginger Nuts

11-07-2008, 8:26 PM

"a used tyre for £20 from a scrapyard."

Try reading posts before being cheeky.

Did, wasnt being cheeky, just being realistic, you didnt answer my question, would you replace the tyres then? Of course you wouldnt, but you dont know the history oof them either.:rolleyes:

trets77

11-07-2008, 8:33 PM

i have had many a banger , but my last one was undoublty the best

12 year old Mazda 323 with FSH , 12 months MOT ,4 months tax and a full tank of fuel 88000 miles . £250 quid :D :D

spent £150 on servicing over 3 years ( my father in law is work from home Mechanic ) , £25 to replace smashed rear light , £60 on MOT's , and about £150 on pads . 16,000 miles and 3 years of flawless service later , it finally scummed to rust. but hey was given £40 quid for it from scrap metal merchant :D .

i have a ford fiesta at the moment that in total has cost me £1000 and had it for 18 months , that includes a new Cam belt , and radiator . i am still not sure if it has been the best buy , but it does have the Honda engine ( so my Father in law tells me) , so hopefully should last a fair few miles yet. already had 13,000 out of it and it is still going strong.

given the choice i would always go for a Japanese car, you just cannot beat them for build quality and reliability.

i always aim for something that is not atheistic pleasing , a few superficial dents and dings and a nasty color will see a perfectly good car avoided by the masses .

other great things about a banger are :

you don't have to worry about people trying to steal it . great if it lives half it's life in a train station car park.

you can get dirt cheap 3rd party fire and theft insurance ( £97 is my record so far) .

you can bully shinny cars in city traffic . people who see your car has dents and is a banger think twice about cutting you up etc.

loads of money to spend on the things in life that matter .

david69

11-07-2008, 10:50 PM

too many people buy cars for image i could afford to buy a nice car but whats the point i have a company van to use during the week so if i had a nice new car all it would be doing is sitting on the drive all week losing money.

greenman7

11-07-2008, 11:18 PM

Since passing my test in 1975 I have had plenty of bangers. Starting of with an Austin A35 van, 3 Morris 1000s, a Morris 1000 Traveller, an Austin A40, a Morris 1000 van, a Mini, a VW camper, a Transit pick-up, 2 Fiestas, a Fiat Uno and a Citreon AX. The Fiat Uno and the Citroen AX were around the £500 mark – but everything else was between £50 - £300. Bangernomics has been a way of life for a long time with me. When you do not have a lot of money you buy what is available locally in the area at a cheap price.

I think that there is a lot of luck attached to buying any vehicle, particularly when it is old and cheap, sometimes you have it and sometimes you do not. The advantage is that if you do not have the luck then you have not lost a lot of capital tied up in the vehicle.

Over the years I have certainly learnt a lot of car mechanics keeping some of these vehicles on the road, especially the Morris 1000s, (These mainly went off the road due to rust problems). I have spent many a happy hour covered in oil taking engines, gearboxes out etc. If you are prepared to do this then the car will be more cost effective to keep on the road.

I changed in April 2004 and bought a 1998 Fiesta from ebay for £1,270, going a bit upmarket -10 months ago I gave this to my son and bought a 2003 Citroen C3 1.4 Hdi from ebay for £2,950. These more expensive, modern cars have been more reliable and economical than the older cars. I feel that the market is changing for older cars with high scrap values – a friend of mine took his old Vauxhall Vectra to the scrap yard and got £192 for it. Why sell a car really cheap when you can get that money for it?

PhilSParker

12-07-2008, 11:55 AM

Who cares about depreciation ? My 1971 VW Camper is going UP in value. And it's reasonably cheap to maintin even when I have to get someone to do work on it. Older cars are designed to be fixed unlike modern ones. If you go for a "classic" there is the option of cheaper insurance if you accept a limit of the mileage - I can do up to 5000 miles a year. Oh, and the Road Tax is free on pre-1973 cars. If you run 2 bangers then even reliability becomes less of an issue as you can use one while the other is off the road. Get the cars cheap enough and this is a real option.

The environmental benefits are important too. It takes at least 60,000 miles for a car to generate as much emissions as it does to make the thing. So, changing your new car ever year for a "greener" model doesn't work.

DuggyMak

12-07-2008, 3:35 PM

It's clear from the posts, so far, that everyone's circumstances/requirements/mechanical experience, etc is different.

However, the one thing in common is that we are all trying to enjoy safe, affordable, reliable motoring by preventing the unnecessary scrapping of perfectly serviceable cars, at the expense of the environment and our pockets.

No matter which part of the Bangeromics "spectrum" we, individually, prefer (dirt cheap, to those costing a few thousand pounds) we should all be proud of our combined efforts. It's financially stupid, as well as just plain crazy, to fall into the trap of changing a perfectly good car that you know the history of, for a newer one, just to get a few more mpg. That's just locking in depreciation that, up to the point of sale, was purely a "paper loss". What's even worse is risking the repossession of your home to struggle to finance a new motor sitting outside it!

However, personally, if I had a garage, I would definitely be thinking about picking up a "future classic", in the next year, as the prices of larger cars plummet.

Incidentally, although I have no knowledge of any of my neighbours selling their vehicle, I have recently noticed a marked drop in the number of cars parked in my, Edinburgh, street. Even during the day, when the cars owned by staff from a nearby large office replace the resident's ones. Perhaps the huge increase in motoring costs has, finally, resulted in more car-sharing, motorcycling, cycling, walking and public transport use that previous schemes failed to encourage. Whatever the reason, I must admit, it's great being able to get parked without any trouble.

Furthermore, for those of us still able to keep motoring, with less traffic, our journeys should be more economical both in mpg, and time taken, not to mention a reduction in the stress involved. However, it will be interesting to see if the number of fatal, or, high-speed accidents reduce now that a significant number of drivers are trying to get more from each gallon.

Never having had the luxury of driving a company car, with "free fuel", I have always been aware of the effects of a heavy right foot on both the accelerator and, even worse, the brakes! By keeping a safe distance from the car in front, looking well ahead and "through" the corners, and anticipating other people's actions, it's perfectly possible to keep up a steady speed without adversely affecting other drivers, even in a small-engined car. I certainly managed to embarrass the drivers of more powerful vehicles, on many occasions, in my 1litre Daihatsu Charade (non-turbo!) simply by staying well back and being ready to exploit any safe overtaking opportunity that arose, while they were often still on "auto-pilot" simply following the car in front!

Incidentally, I once worked for a company, who, when the first car-phones became available, thought it would be a great idea to be able to contact their reps out on the road. Unfortunately, one of them was prone to tail-gating other vehicles, (less than 20ft!), including lorries on motorways. Of course, when he answered the phone and became distracted, replying to head-office, the result was a major crash into the back of the vehicle in front. He only had the repaired vehicle back a few days when the same thing happened again, at which point, the insurance company refused to cover him if he drove a car fitted with a phone!

Unfortunately, many people today, don't realise the skill involved in driving a car properly, with full attention on the road, and deliberately limiting unnecessary distractions. Hopefully, some of them might begin to appreciate what's involved, by paying more attention to an everyday activity they often take their mind off, while thinking of other things. If that, combined with fuel-efficient driving, makes our roads a safer place to be for all road users, then it will be a welcome "plus" against all the "minuses" we are facing just now.

Thunderbird

12-07-2008, 4:52 PM

On the other hand, to be fair, we are able to run old cars simpley because we know that if it breaks down, we will not lose our jobs, in other words, we can afford the time of breakdown, should it happen, plus the time to fix it DIY style.

Some people can not afford this level of uncertainty. So, they opt to buying nearly new cars because they can not afford the lost time should a breakdown happen to them in some days in some journeys. It's like an insurance policy. You buy what you think will cover your needs. Or like mortgage deals ( fixed or tracker rates)

I am not saying older cars are not reliable here. All I am saying, logically, in two well maintained cars, a newer one is unlikely to break down when compared to an old banger.

I am happy that my life style, at the moment, allows me to afford bangeronmics.

EDIT: I have got two cars, one is a lovely 14 years old banger and another car I use when there is some work to be done to the old girl!

stewie755

12-07-2008, 6:10 PM

My n reg clio just died, bad times, but it only cost me £300 quid 3 years ago and all i paid was petrol and tax, good times.
I've just bought a Probe on ebay, a bit flash looking but i love it and only £460. I did have a nice sparkly hp car, but not worth it. Good topic.

Daisy Bell

12-07-2008, 6:16 PM

Got an 'L' Reg Rover Metro 'Casino' that gets through it's MOT time after time. Costs me practically nothing to run. £35. MOT from local garage. A new tyre every now and then, the odd part, occasional battery. Tax £110. Insurance around £160. Mind you, I only use it as a runaround and hubby does a bit of maintenance on it before the MOT. Still........:D
Hubby runs a 2002 Nissan Micra - now there's a car that doesn't rust! We see really old ones around and very few seem to have any rust on 'em! (They can't all be garaged!)

TheJimster

12-07-2008, 11:27 PM

My contribution: bought a '99 V-reg Mondeo for £460 in May from eBay with 99k miles on the clock . Done minor servicing myself (oil filter, oil, etc). The thermostat needed changing, needed a new seal on the rear light cluster and it (still) needs new front tyres but otherwise everything else is good.

I don't even think it's really a banger; it has full air-con, electric sunroof/windows/mirrors/seats, traction control, CD player, remote central locking, airbags, etc etc etc.

I'm enjoying driving it and so far not the slightest hint of a breakdown or anything; the MOT is coming up at the end of the summer. Hopefully nothing much needs doing.

Oh, and I put my mum as a second named driver; brought down the insurance by £100! Odd but true; apparently putting an older driver on as a second driver makes it cheaper!

In fact I don't understand why people spend £17k on a new Mondeo when they can pick up an 8 year old Mondeo, for 97.3% less. But I'm not going to complain; if people weren't buying lots of new cars the old ones wouldn't be so cheap :-)

camaj

14-07-2008, 8:25 PM

Something worth considering, which may or may not make a difference to your final calculations, is petrol costs:

I was thinking the same thing. In the past, getting a banger did make sense but now more attention has to be paid to fuel costs. If we get to £1.50 or even £2 a litre it's going to make a big difference

I've never paid more than £100 for a car, although I have spent a fair bit on some in order to get them up to scratch but the cars have been free.

There are a lot of variables, a low mileage driver might find a car dies from old age before overuse or misuse. I've seen scrapyards offering £100+ for cars so getting a £200 quid car is really only £100.

Compare two approaches, the first an owner buys a banger every year for £300 but once scrapped it'll have cost him £200 for the year. The fuel efficiency works out to 30mpg on average.

The second buys a car for £3000 but it has 100,000 miles on the clock and will go on for another 100,000 miles. The fuel efficiency is 60mpg.Both drive 5,000 miles a year.

Car A: Will last for a year. Works out to £200/year (£300 - £100). Fuel will be £922.5 a year
Car B: Will last for 20 years. Works out to £145/year (£3000/20 - £100). Fuel will be £461.3. Car B saves £55 a year on purchase cost and £461.3 on fuel costs, a total annual saving of £516 compared to car A.

If petrol goes up to £1.50/litre then the total saving is £567. If it's £2 then car B saves £805/year. Naturally, the savings are greater the higher the annual mileage and lower if the mileage is smaller.

Of course it's not that simple. Inflation (or deflation) will play a part. Will it be possible to get a banger for £300 in 5 years? If it followed general inflation it would probably cost more but perhaps the price would plummet for uneconomical cars since savvy buyers would avoid cars with poor economy.

I'm assuming equal maintenance costs, although it's likely Car B would cost more to repair. Insurance would also be higher, I'd imagine, although it would fall as car B aged. Also, eventually the 60mpg cars will be bangers themselves but electric cars or near 300mpg cars are promised to arrive in a few years.

Admittedly my experience with cars is pretty limited. Can someone tell me if it'd be possible to keep a car for such a long time (20 or 40 years) even if the mileage is low? What could happen and can it be prevented? All I can think of is rust, and I thought that can be avoided with proper care of the paintwork.

greenman7

14-07-2008, 10:19 PM

I'm assuming equal maintenance costs, although it's likely Car B would cost more to repair. Insurance would also be higher, I'd imagine, although it would fall as car B aged. Also, eventually the 60mpg cars will be bangers themselves but electric cars or near 300mpg cars are promised to arrive in a few years.

I have got car B and I have plenty of car A's and I agree with your calculations. Car B in 10 months has been lower maintenance (just renewing front brake pads) went straight through the MOT, cost me £190 fully comp insurance for the year (I think this is pretty reasonable). Just bought road tax for £35 for the year and under the new road tax regime this will be going down to £20 per year.
The car has done 79k I can only hope it does another 100k, I hope so! This should be in another 5 years or so - I would like to keep it longer. I have also found that newer cars have less rust problems, in the 70's and 80's I seemed to lose cars to rust and need quite a bit of welding done - not so much now.

bradhadair

15-07-2008, 11:26 AM

your all forgetting the little vauxhall astras (i think)... mines a 1996 1.4 lovely car with r/c/l, cd player, airbags (horrible things)....

i bought mine for £300, on £20 of fuel she does around 200 miles, tax is 120 p/y, she flew thru her MOT, and if she was a brand new car she'd be on of those that dont have to pay tax due to incredibly low emissions. the only thing needed doing for MOT was a new water hose (£12) BARGIN!!!! Plus also ideal first car :)

camaj

15-07-2008, 4:52 PM

your all forgetting the little vauxhall astras (i think)... mines a 1996 1.4 lovely car with r/c/l, cd player, airbags (horrible things)....

if she was a brand new car she'd be on of those that dont have to pay tax due to incredibly low emissions.

I doubt that a 1.4 astra would come close to something like a Bluemotion Polo. I'm not even sure it'd be in the 101-120 g/km band that supermini's of the world occupy

stevesavingmoney1272

16-07-2008, 9:47 AM

I agree with you. Last year I was looking for a cheap runabout for work commuting. I bought a 1998 Skoda Felicia 1.3 on a R plate at the beginning of March. It had 11 months MOT and 5 months tax and had done 72000miles. It was advertised for £150 privately but I haggled the seller down to £100. Cosmetically it was a bit rusty round the rear hatch and the wheelarches but otherwise fine. The seller said the car didn't hot-start well, but a quick look at the owners manual cured that: simply press the accelerator down whilst starting. I got 8 months cost-free motoring out of it. I serviced it myself as soon as I got it (£30) and insurance was £100. I sold the car for £300 as a part-ex for a family car. It was the most economical car I've ever had. It never broke down during my ownership, but I reckon it would have struggled on its next MOT.

The bargains are to be had out there. I shall be doing the same again next year:beer:

dan.the.man

16-07-2008, 9:51 AM

My first 10 cars cost an average of £600 each and I scrapped them when they died, best classic bargains were a Rover SD1 3.5 V8 for £300 and a Manta GTE for £210.

Like some of the previous posters I love the bigger beasts as they seem cheaper than the smaller cars, nowt wrong with scrapyard tyres as I have purchased loads, just check them as you would when buying a car. My pair of Peugeot 405's were plagued with electrical problems and were occasionally dumped on the roadside prompting me to go Japanese.

Also have been incredibly lucky to buy a Mitsubishi Evo 6 and sell it a couple of years later for only £400 less than I paid for it which was two years in supercar territory for £200 per year (plus the huge fuel and insurance bills of course), do your homework, buy the right car and they can almost be an investment.

Cheapest car was an Austin Maxi picked up for free, needed £20 quid of welding and it sailed through a few years of MOT's before my brother took it off my hands, he then sold it to a banger racing driver for £20.

anewman

16-07-2008, 10:43 AM

I bought a 1998 Skoda Felicia 1.3 on a R plate at the beginning of March. It had 11 months MOT and 5 months tax and had done 72000miles. It was advertised for £150 privately but I haggled the seller down to £100. Cosmetically it was a bit rusty round the rear hatch and the wheelarches but otherwise fine.

Just to think the seller could have got more scrapping it with careful choice of where they send it to.

Most common areas on those cars. Nothing a wire brush, rust converter, aluminium tape, primer, hammerite, and a can of unbranded waxoyl from toolstation for £2.50 can't sort out usually :)

The seller said the car didn't hot-start well, but a quick look at the owners manual cured that: simply press the accelerator down whilst starting.

I believe the temp sender is most likely the culprit.

but I reckon it would have struggled on its next MOT.

Wonder why? I have the older model the Felicia is based on (the Favorit - they share lots of the same parts) and it's presented few problems at MOT time. I suspect a CV joint gaiter is on it's way out, but that's probably part of the course with a 14 year old car. They're a relatively easy car to work on and on the whole quite well made. The other main problems with the cars to look out for include rusty spring cups (which eventually collapse with the spring going boing), rattling timing chain (cheap part and DIYable), leaking windscreen seals (they can leak into the fusebox and sometimes the first sign is iffy electrics) - and the ever annoying leaky sunroof (but again that's usually easily sorted with a little clean up and silicone grease on the seal). On the models with the "VW improved" thermostat often the thermostat housing collapses meaning you need to replace the entire unit at a price of about £45.

getreal

17-07-2008, 9:25 AM

Just reading this thread.. I have a Volvo S60 T5 which I love to pieces.. or I did should I say. I am spending over a £100 a week on petrol and I am on the verge of financial crisis... I desperatly need to buy a cheap to insure, chap to run but SAFE for two toddlers car....

Can anyne help me? i have no idea where to start there seems to be millions of cars on ebay and autotrader, I literally have a couple of hunded to spend

getreal

17-07-2008, 9:27 AM

sorry about the spelling, my mothers 12 yr old key board

getreal

17-07-2008, 9:31 AM

I think I am asking if that anyone with a big heart and some spare time.. if they knew of anything in particular worth bidding etc.. I really am desperate i know i know get the violin out lol

anewman

17-07-2008, 12:13 PM

I desperatly need to buy a cheap to insure, chap to run but SAFE for two toddlers car...
Unfortunately no car is 100% safe, there is always an element of risk.The best you can do is fix them in properly, and drive to try avoid accidents. Bear in mind car accidents don't happen everyday.

markelock

17-07-2008, 12:26 PM

Surely if you only have a couple of hundred pounds, but you get a car that will do twice the mpg, you'll halve your fuel costs. therefore you can stretch your spending out, and reclaim it via fuel savings?

as others have said, I'd go japanese. get a fsh, check for the next MOT, Service and tax due dates & do a check on the vehicle.

beautifulgorgeous

17-07-2008, 5:39 PM

Junk yard tryes could be ok. A year last Sept I picked up our zafira after its MOT with three news tyres. That was at 1.30 did the schoolrun and parked outside my friends house, at 7 o`clock somebody ran into it and it was a writeoff, the tyres had done less than 7 miles and the insurance company didn`t settle the mot bill! incidentally we paid 16 grand for it and were paid out 6 and it was just 4 years old. Last new car I shall ever buy!

anewman

17-07-2008, 7:50 PM

Be sure to check the age of the tyres as well as condition. My GF recently had a tyre blow out on her although the tyre was in good condition and passed an MOT not long ago, and the tyre pressures had been checked recently. The breakdown recovery aid the tyre failed just because it was an old tyre, think it was something like 10 years old.

Tyre age is printed on the sidewall somehow in some sort of hidden code.

lincroft1710

17-07-2008, 7:56 PM

Beautifulgorgeous - sorry to hear about the accident, BUT if you'd shelled out £78k for a 6 litre Audi A8, 4 yrs later you'd have got about £27K max, a little over one third. The percentage drop in values for 4 yr old cars is about the same with a few exceptions - Honda Jazz is renowned for low depreciation. If you don't want the depreciation of a brand new car, best bet is 1/2 yr old car with fsh and pref 1 careful owner.

steven77

19-07-2008, 9:14 AM

That was the sound of me jumping on the "Bangernomics" bandwagon. I have had a brand new Seat Ibiza for the last 3 years which I have given back recently, so basically I have leased it, which isn't too bad as they took my old car as deposit. Now they are charging me £400 to fix the dents etc and a £75 "option to purchase fee" when I'm not purchasing it!! I don't know any other shops that charge you a fiver on the way out on the basis that you might have bought anything! That'll teach me not to read the small print.

Anyway, my plan now is to buy a car from ebay for around £250, and to raise the money entirely by selling other bits and pieces around the house. Hence begins the "Garbage for a Car" challenge... :beer:

thestealer

21-07-2008, 10:30 PM

Interesting thread, I've just done the Bangernomics thing too.

Previous vehicle: Citroen Xsara Picasso. Cost: £4995

Finance: £113/month
Tax: £11/month
Fully comp Insurance: £21/month
Fuel: £86/month
MOT + repairs: £33/month
Servicing: £18/month
Sundries (car wash, air fresheners etc.) £15/month

Total: £297/month

New car: Toyota Carina 1994. Cost £280

Finance: £0/month
Tax: £16/month (bit more to tax)
TP, F & T Insurance: £14/month (paid in a oner)
Fuel: £90/month (petrol instead of diesel)
MOT + repairs: £10/month (doing minor repairs myself)
Servicing: £4/month (do it myself)
Sundries: £3/month (not worth keeping sparkly)

Total: £137/month (Yay!)

Admittedly, there are a couple of one off costs. I bought a trolley jack and axle stands for £35 for servicing, but even supposing...huge saving :)

And to be honest, it's a nicer car, well appointed, electric everything, sunroof, REALLY comfy.

It's like getting the thick end of a £2000 per year pay rise!

jaygrunt

23-07-2008, 12:19 AM

. Hence begins the "Garbage for a Car" challenge... :beer:

This I like :-)...I is gonna do dis so I can give my daughter a car on her birthday next year !!!! or this depending on how well it goes

Now to suss out how to do this ebay thingy

Any suggestions PM me or put em here PLease ....thanks

jaygrunt

23-07-2008, 12:24 AM

New car: Toyota Carina 1994. Cost £280

!
Could I ask where you got such an amazing bargain?
Please tell cos I is wanting one of those cars especially at that price

big gay kirk

23-07-2008, 12:40 AM

try the auctions.. thats about the going price.. lets be honest, t reg mondeos are only getting up to about 600 -700 round here...

philhuff

23-07-2008, 9:12 AM

I can't pretend to fit entirely in with the Bangernomics thing, as I've got three cars, but one definitely fits the bill.

I picked up a Renault Safrane for £51 on eBay back in March 2007 for the specific reason of entering the Staples 2 Naples banger rally, raising money for SPARKS as I did so and happily supported by Martin here at MoneySavingExpert.com.

Now 16 months on, the car has just passed it's second MOT. Costs so far have been...

A bit of servicing that I just didn't have time to do myself, and the parts/fluids required: £200
Two MOT's: £80
Rocker cover gasket: £25
It also needed tyres, but they were donated by Micheldever Tyre Services. Value was circa £320.
A surprise fuel leak was also fixed by my good friends at ASAP in Huntingdon for free.

That's all that was needed over that time. I'll ignore the ridiculous paint job, unnecessary scoops and vents, the stickers supplied by Mitchell Signs in Kent, and a dashboard mounted overide switch for the cooling fans at the front, as none of those were strictly speaking needed.

Insurance is almost nothing, at around £100 a year. Tax is £185 a year.

The only downside is the fuel economy, which hovers around the 23mpg mark.

Total cost of £625 (inc tyres, tax, insurance, etc) over 16 months leaves a cpm of a little over £60 a month thus far. By way of comparison, one of my other cars costs around £350 a month in depreciation alone.

thestealer

23-07-2008, 9:57 AM

Could I ask where you got such an amazing bargain?
Please tell cos I is wanting one of those cars especially at that price

Local paper. Every Saturday is car sales day and there are bargains to be had. I had to visit a few cars that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole before finding a good one. The previous owner also lived out in the country which maybe put some potential buyers off.

Keep an eye out for those free classified ads papers too. The internet is not always the best place for bargain hunting.

sarahemmm

23-07-2008, 12:30 PM

given the choice i would always go for a Japanese car, you just cannot beat them for build quality and reliability.
Yup - Had a Daewoo a couple of years ago which was brilliant, and this Primera is (fingers crossed) absolutely great.

i always aim for something that is not atheistic pleasing , a few superficial dents and dings and a nasty color will see a perfectly good car avoided by the masses .Mine's a nice maroon colour, but the laquer has gone in splotches all over.

other great things about a banger are :

you don't have to worry about people trying to steal it . great if it lives half it's life in a train station car park. I never lock mine at all nowadays - so no worries about not having a remote :D

you can get dirt cheap 3rd party fire and theft insurance ( £97 is my record so far) .

you can bully shinny cars in city traffic . people who see your car has dents and is a banger think twice about cutting you up etc.Yes indeedy, and boy, is it fun :rotfl:And seeing their faces in your mirror when you can still drive better and get round bends/roundabouts/traffic lights faster than their badly driven beemer...

MrBangernomics

22-08-2008, 11:08 PM

I am really that so many of us don't believe in overspending on new cars when there are perfectly decent used ones out there. Mark 2 Golfs are still great and I've had a whole load of Saabs which have been really good. Also BMWs are great from the earlier '90s. Maybe I operate at the posh end of Bangernomics, but I have saved a fortune and never had any big bills....MrB

thestealer

29-11-2008, 8:16 PM

Continuing the bangernomics ethos...

The Carina I bought from a few posts earlier gave up the ghost with multiple electrical problems sadly but I flogged off some bits and scrapped it.

Battery: £3
Interior mirror: £2
Alternator: £15
Oxygen sensor: £30
Injectors: £45
Haynes manual: £17
Scrap metal: £80

Total £192....cost of 4 months motoring...£90ish so not too bad.

Just bought a V reg Kia Shuma for £550 with only 59000 miles on the clock, hoping this one will last longer.

Arbie

02-12-2008, 12:10 AM

Davesnave

02-12-2008, 7:14 AM

I've been re-reading this thread with interest, as I've owned a VW Golf GT TDi for the past 5 years. I was the 3rd owner and bought it at 32k miles for £11k; over 110k trouble free miles later I managed to drive into someone on Friday :( The idea, of course, was to keep it until it died (estimated 250k miles, another 6 years) - thereby giving me maximum value for my cash. Oh, and it helps that it's pretty nippy and still does 50mpg, of course! Although the crash was pretty minor, I'm worried that the insurer will take one look at it (the Glass's list price is about £2200) and write it off - so we'd be firmly into bangernomics territory. Of course, it's worth far, far more to us than that (even accounting for the servicing bills increasing year in year as more components reach the end of their life). Has anyone had experience of buying the salvage back from an insurance company? My local mechanic is pretty sure he could patch it up for minimal cost, and we may be in the odd position of being given the settlement for the write-off, buying it back, paying our friendly mechanic for the repairs and being a hundred quid up, if my estimates are correct!

In 2002, someone rear-ended my Carlton estate and drove off before I could come to my senses. I didn't chase them because there were witnesses, who all turned out to be totally useless!

The insurers, Fortis, decided to write the car off, but there was nothing dangerous about the damage, which was a bentish bumper, rear valance and boot lid. (Luckily, I had a tow bar & a full load of sand on board, making me rather solid! I often wonder how far the other guy got with a puntured radiator.) Fortis just assumed I'd want rid and offered £560. However, when I asked if I could buy it, they were only too happy to do that & send me a cheque for the difference (£450) So, I got to keep my car & had a nice Christmas present.

The only down side was having the claim on my policy for 5 years (protected discount) and the fact that they'd only insure the car 3rd Party thereafter. I think I drove it for a year or more afterwards, then sold it to someone doing a house removal for £120!

Hope that helps. I like Fortis & I'm still insured with them through RIAS.

carbonmonoxide

02-12-2008, 4:24 PM

Davesnave

03-12-2008, 1:18 AM

I like this thread - I don't own a car yet but am hoping to pass my test early next year. I was worried I wouldn't be able to afford to buy and run a car but it looks like there is some hope for me after reading this :j

The only problem is I don't know the first thing about cars so how would I know if I am getting a bargin or a dustbin on wheels?

Also I want something that's going to be safe and can handle the odd long trip on the motorway. Apart from that I won't be driving it much as its easier to get public transport to/from work.

Any advice?

Well, once you pass your test it is a balance between power & insurance cost. You'll have no no-claims bonus, so anything middling-size engine wise will be horribly expensive to insure.

My daughter went for a one litre Volkswagen Polo and had a Nissan Micra in mind too. Her insurance was around £450 -£500. Both cars are small, and in their 1 litre form, run out of steam a bit on hills, but they have a good track record of reliability. If you think you can afford to insure them, the 1.3/1.4 litre versions will be less tiring on long runs. Of the two, the VW is the more roomy and solid, the Micra more sporty.

If you can go a bit further in engine size, the Nissan Almera is worth a look in 1.5 litre form. Older ones are cheapies now. Toyota Corollas in 1.3 litre guise are very good too. Later Fiestas are OK as well.

A lot of mechanics would say steer clear of anything by Renault, Citroen and Fiat. So would I. We had a small Fiat which was OK mechanically and fun to drive, but things fell off, snapped, rusted etc.

Buying a used car isn't that scary. Even the way the 'phone is answered will tell you a lot about the owner, and you should spend at least as long 'reading' the seller as you do looking at the car.

When phoning, ask about 'the car' and if they have to ask 'which one?' you know you have a part time dealer.
That isn't necessarily bad news; I bought my last two cars from mechanics who dabble in auctions, but I also got a full service history and HPI check.(Google HPI) In both cases I spent an hour with the seller & was satisfied they were working from their own home. Never buy in a car park or other public place.

I haven't mentioned the car yet, but obviously it won't be perfect, and neither should it be tatty. If it looks and sounds good, drives and stops well then that's about all you'll know for sure. Give it a good test run though and ask loads of questions, including why they want rid. If you can take someone mechanically minded along, so much the better. Anything obvious you spot wrong, like well-worn tyres can be put into the equation when you haggle the price down!

You won't always need to haggle much. My last two cars were such good deals I didn't want to slash the price being asked.
The best thing you can get with a car is a good service history, proving it's been well cared for and showing what's been replaced. Also its imperative to be given the car's Registration Certificate.

When I'm looking for a car these days, I use Auto Trader's web site and a lot of patience. There are thousands of cars out there, and probably one in three is dodgy or 'undesirable,' but using common sense and an eye for detail the 'diamonds' can be found.

Look at Parkers web site and Honest John for other tips. Good luck with that test.

carbonmonoxide

03-12-2008, 10:58 AM

wow - thanks Davesnave, that was very helpful and informative. Funnily enough my driving instructor recommended the Micras and said he'd owned loads and never had a problem with them, so I think I will start with them. A 1 litre sounds fine for me at the moment. Thanks again.

Arbie

08-12-2008, 8:23 PM

In 2002, someone rear-ended my Carlton estate and drove off before I could come to my senses. I didn't chase them because there were witnesses, who all turned out to be totally useless!

The insurers, Fortis, decided to write the car off, but there was nothing dangerous about the damage, which was a bentish bumper, rear valance and boot lid. (Luckily, I had a tow bar & a full load of sand on board, making me rather solid! I often wonder how far the other guy got with a puntured radiator.) Fortis just assumed I'd want rid and offered £560. However, when I asked if I could buy it, they were only too happy to do that & send me a cheque for the difference (£450) So, I got to keep my car & had a nice Christmas present.

The only down side was having the claim on my policy for 5 years (protected discount) and the fact that they'd only insure the car 3rd Party thereafter. I think I drove it for a year or more afterwards, then sold it to someone doing a house removal for £120!

Hope that helps. I like Fortis & I'm still insured with them through RIAS.

Well, it was a close run thing! The assessor did indeed want to write it off (and offer us £1980), as the repairs were quoted at about £2200; but my friendly local mechanic talked him round to letting him repair it with a salvaged bumper and bonnet...no write off, and we get to keep our cracking little Golf! No need to go down the salvage route, which saved a lot of hassle - but thanks for the advice - much appreciated.