Maintenance Agreements...Are They Enforceable?

[pennym]

My daughter divorced last year. She and her husband signed a maintenance agreement that he would pay £400 per month for the maintenance of their two sons, now 16 and 18.

The eldest is hoping to go to uni. in October, the second lad will stay at school for A levels.

The father is now unemployed and cannot find a job in the professional sector as he is now 54. He has paid the maintenance up to now, but he announced yesterday that he will pay nothing more from August 31st as he cannot afford it.

He has an unencumbered house which he is selling and intends to live in France. He maintains a good lifestyle and does not seem short of money.

My daughter works and her income is low enough to get tax credit. She has no mortgage but outgoings and maintenance for the boys are expensive and she already has an overdraft.

She is loath to go to a solicitor about the breach of the agreement as that would cost money she does not have.

Can anyone advise if there is anything she can do about the situation. Can she go to court and represent herself? Should she approach the CSA?

The ex seems to think it is just her bad luck!

He has a new partner who works, but she has also sold her house prior to going to France and is no longer going to work, or so he says.

We just do not know what is best for her to do.

We would appreciate any advice you can give.

[Fran]

Was the maintenance agreement part of the divorce? I thought maintenance stopped at age 18 (needs checking)? Your grandson, with daughters help if necessary (?) should make sure that he has looked into all the options for assistance with the college course. He should contact the college and local authority about this (students board on this site is worth having a look at too). Perhaps your daughter could save money herself by looking at this site! She could go to her local Citizens Advice for advise on this free. (I'm trying to suggest other ways of increasing her income because chasing him through courts is going to be extrememly difficult and time consuming if he is going to live abroad, in fact she needs to find out whether he can be chased if he lives abroad.) CAB can tell her whether there are solicitors offering a free first half hour (for example) in her area.

[lisyloo]

I agree with the last poster in that I think he won;t have to pay anything for the child who is now 18.

If the 16 year old is in school then I think he still has responsibilities.

Try the CAB and I would have thought that the CSA would help.
The maintenance agreement may have to change because of one child now being an adult and also perhaps because of his circumstances but ultimately yes, I think the CSA can enforce payments.
It may however prove to be difficult if he moves to another country.

He has a new partner who works, but she has also sold her house prior to going to France and is no longer going to work, or so he says.


I'm not being horrible, but I can't see why you expect his partner to have any reponsibility for someone else's child. The responsibilities fall to you and him.

[pennym]

I only mentioned his partner as I thought he and she may remain unemployed so as to avoid paying anything at all.

Also I read on another thread that when the CSA got involved, they took in TOTAL income of the couple.

I agree, this woman has no obligation to my grandsons, but my ex son in law has at least an moral obligation as he signed an agreement to pay for the boys upkeep whilst they were in full time education.

I am sorry if you gained the impression that I expected this woan to be liable.

[lisyloo]

It is possible that they are both remaining unemployed and going to another country as well to avoid payment.

I would think it is worth approaching the CAB when she should be able to see a solicitor for free and get advice from the CSA.

I have always heard in the past that the CSA are very vigilent in chasing up fathers who do not pay.
I suspect it will be harder for them if he is France but not impossible.

[trafalgar]

I agree with the last poster in that I think he won;t have to pay anything for the child who is now 18.

.
If he signed a official agreement ,depending on when, she may still be able to get it enforced by the courts

When myself and my first husband divorce we had a court agreement written up to which he had to pay certain payments whilst the kids remained in full-time education....for example if one wanted to go to uni I could apply for a continuance after 18

It really depends how watertight the agreement was.....however there is very little chance of enforcing it if he moves abroad.what would happen is he would be arrested for non-payment if/when he arrived back in the uk :-/

[filigree]

For new applicants the CSA will apply the new rules. The ex-husband's new wife's income will not be taken into account, only his income.

Unemployed absent parents are charged a flat rate of £5 per week, but if the allegedly unemployed parent enjoys an affluent lifestyle (because he is living off substantial savings perhaps) then he can be charged more.

I'm afraid it looks like pennym's daughter will have to get legal advice. If the court order can't be enforced, she can try the CSA but they are notorious for a) taking ages and b) getting their sums wrong anyway. She should probably try to get advice on applying for more benefits, or WTC, to boost her income in the meantime.

[pennym]

Thnak you all for the good advice.

I will pass it all on to my daughter.

She works long hours and so I may go to see the CAB on her behalf and maybe arrange a timed interview with a solicitor.

I just feel the intention to sell his house and move to France is an effort to get out of paying any maintenance...it wouldn't be the first case!

I think you need to check what your maintanence agreement says. IF he has agreed to pay until they have finished full-time education, then he will be breaking the law by not doing it. However, I know from another friend's experience that it can be very, very difficult to get them to pay, especially if they're moving abroad.

One thing that is relevant is that if the son going to uni applies for a student loan then the father is required to complete a form about his income and savings. If these are high or if he refuses to give this information, then the student loan company will assume that he is contributing to your grandson's upkeep and this will affect what financial support he can get.

[lisyloo]

IF he has agreed to pay until they have finished full-time education, then he will be breaking the law by not doing it.

It is one thing to win a legal case against someone but quite another to enforce it.

I had a problem with a builder once and had a case against him. Unfortunately he lived on a caravan site and said he would leave the area if I pursued him
I could have won a small claims court case and paid the balliffs £50 per time to go round to his caravan, probably without success (and with the chance of bricks though my window).

As well as working out your legal rights, you also have to asses your chances of enforcing any court order.
If either he is going to great lengths (like leaving the country) to avoid paying OR his circumstances really have changed for the worst so he can't afford it, then you seriously have to consider that.
You can't get blood out of a stone, even if you are in the right and have the paper work to say so.

I am sure any solicitor will tell you this.

Would there be any chance of discussing this with him and offering a lower agreement or have things got past this stage?
This gives hime the avantage of paying less (which I believe is somewhat justified as one child is an adult).
Also gives her the advantage of getting something and avoiding legal fees.
This might not be ideal, but would be something which is better than nothing.

[pennym]

He came to see her at the weekend and virtually siad that was it.

We feel he has money hidden away, which he gave to his family whilst the divorce was going through. he manages to travel up and down to see his new partner and keeps up his membership at an expensive club.

The boys feel that he has truly deserted them and that he does not talk to them.

He has told me not to email or phone him again.

Quite frankly, I honestly believe my daughter has little or no prospect of getting any money out of him, although i still think that once his house sells, he should pay the years maintenance.

After that it will be Gran and Grandad who will have to step into the breach.

Although I'm a woman myself, I am sick of other women demanding that their ex husbands shell out for their children. Men are not walking wallets and should not be used soley for this purpose. £400 a month, for doing nothing is alot to expect from her ex partner. The father of my son has been dead for the past 10 years, and there is no government fund to pay towards his upkeep, I simply get on with it myself. I am not bitter or resentful of this fact, but I do get highly annoyed with women who think that it is there right to expect the fathers to shell out for everything. So the children have to go without some things? So they want to go to university and they can't afford it? Big deal... we can't always get what we would like in life. My advice to any women chasing their ex partners for money is this... STOP IT AND MANAGE BY YOURSELVES. Any father that willingly gives gifts of money to their children usually have plenty to spare. Any man that doesn't give money probably doesn't have enough to give, and if that's not the case then they're not worth chasing.
I would advise your daughter to manage on her own and stop thinking that she has a right to her ex's money, just because he fathered the children.

[chugalug]

Ouch - thats a bit harsh! Surely if a child has 2 parents then it is the duty of both parents to maintain that child? ???

[filigree]

Ouch - thats a bit harsh! Surely if a child has 2 parents then it is the duty of both parents to maintain that child? ! ???

Yep, and we have a duty to pay life insurance so that they don't suffer poverty if we die.

life insurance would have been good but unfortunately, because my partner commited suicide, even if he did have any (which he didn't) life insurance does not pay out if a person takes their own life.

Some may think my comments harsh, but so many men are fleeced by women, who tell their children dreadful lies about their father, mess up contact arrangements and try to make their life a misery... but mention money and hey presto! They're filling forms in like a shot and 'demanding' his contribution.

I know a few people whose life has been made a miserty by the CSA who incidentally have openly admited that the system is not fair and doesn't really work.

What is it with these women that try to force blood out of a stone? No one these days lives in poverty, there are benefits galore to be had- Children do not go without, mothers just bleet on about not getting money from their ex's because they are bitter and want a better lifestyle and more money.

[chugalug]

RESPONSIBILITY. I would still argue that both parents have a duty to maintain their children. Sure there are people that would abuse that but not just women. I know far more couples where the father has just left the first family and not taken any responsibility for maintaining his children and then gone on to have more children all the while bleating about having to pay maintainance. Sure the CSA is an unfair system, I think the majority would agree with that but its the best we've got at the moment. And as for 'plenty of benefits available' why should the state (tax payers) step in when parents refuse to support their own children? I really wish there was an easy answer but there isnt and condemning whole groups of people (women) really doesnt help.

[filigree]

"no government fund to pay towards his upkeep" versus "Benefits galore" - WTF? A complete reversal of opinion there...

I shan't bother to point out the other flaws in the argument because the poster knows full well that their posts are inflammatory and contradictory.

I suspect this is a troll, and from the bitter misogynist tone I suspect a non-resident father with a political axe to grind.

It's a shame pennym's concerns have been hijacked by someone else's agenda.

[Fran]

Lucy - Shouldn't the issues of maintenance and child contact be kept seperate? I think 2 people pay if two people create as previous posters have said, but I agree with your point that a lot of fathers get a raw deal when it comes to child contact.

I absolutely swear that I am a woman (and not a troll as suggested although that bit did make me laugh) I am NOT a man who has been caught in the maintenance trap either. I know that there is absolutely no way of letting you know that this is true, but I promise that it is.
My argument about 'benefits galore' and 'no government fund available' when the father dies, wasn't contradictory, but perhaps I did not explain myself very well.
Yes, of course there is WFTC (the benefits galore bit!) but maintenance paid to mothers does not take this into account, so they get both. A mother asking for maintenance from the CSA will get the full amount due, even if she already gets the full amount of WFTC as well. What I meant was that although I am entitled to £45 a month WFTC, there is not another government fund that provides a form of maintenance for my son as his dad is not alive to do so - I hope that makes better sense?
I still stand by what I said. Women should learn to manage by theirselves and get a job.

[jockettuk]

Ive had to fight for my childs rights in my divorce as my ex thinks that anything he gives to her money or whatever will benefit myself.. ive never asked or will never ask that he pays for my upkeep i can do that myself but why should my daughter go without when he has moved in with another person and her children dont go without. if my ex had died i would have moved on and got on with whatever life threw at me but he didnt and i dont see why he should have the life of luxury whilst our child suffers.. After childcare costs we dont have a lot to live on but we manage the best we can anything we do get from her father is a bonus that means she can go on school trips etc

As for the lady whos daughter needs advice tell your daughter to seek legal advice as if she has no assests she will be able to claim legal aid..

[kittenlucy]

Why does your child 'suffer' ? Does she go without clothes, food, warmth, shelter, love? I doubt it. Divorce would be so much easier if women didn't nag on about their 'children suffering' What a load of rubbish. Unless your child is beaten and mistreated or has a life threatening illness or is physically disabled, then he or she is not 'suffering'. You must move on and provide love and support for your children and stop thinking that your ex's wallet solves all problems.

[trafalgar]

Kittenlucy
I think the person you were responding to was trying to make the point ........................

why should her/their child have less because the man has decided to shirk his responsibility to their child but has since gone off and had more :-/

Are you saying this is acceptable behaviour ???

[nearlyrich]

I have some relevant experience here, I know that you can't make someone take responsibility but you can get on with life and make yourself proud of what you can achieve without him.

I have 2 children now 17 & 18 my ex left when they were very young when he decided he didn't like the responsibility of parenthood.

I have a court order which is OK till you try to enforce it and it is more grief than enough.
I had to fight for any money in fact it cost me to go to court on several occaisions.

I decided it was better for my sanity to take the responsibility for them myself and any money he paid treat it as a bonus.

He stopped paying his £100 per month ( Yes for 2 teenagers) when no 2 was 16, both still in FTE and hoping to go to university one this year and one next year.

I have worked since they were young, had great support from my mum, now have a decent job and reasonable lifestyle. Trying not to think of the cost of the next 4 years!!

It hasn't always been easy but my advice to your daughter is take what if anything is on offer but don't waste your life chasing what you can't get.

[Plumpud]

In response to the original query from the person who's ex-son-in-law is going to France. Get your Daughter to go to a GOOD solicitor ASAP.

If he has a property, the Court can place a charge on the property, so that when it is sold, he is not paid all of the proceeds (in exactly the same way that a lender is paid if there is a mortgage on the property).

As a previous reply said, if she is on low income she will probabley be entitled to Legal Aid. I wouldn't advise going to the CAB, as from personal experience, they have given me completely wrong advice. I also had dealings with a number of different CAB's through my previous job, it was surprising how few of the approaches from them were done either in the correct manner, or by anyone who had the slightest idea what they were talking about.

Just because the marriage/relationship has ended, does not mean that his financial, legal or moral obligation to his children has. A child going to university, is considered by the law, to still be in full-time education, so a court order would be given for maintenance. If the Father wants to go to France and do nothing, then a calculation of the cost of support for the children until they finish full-time education should be done and taken from the proceeds of the sale of the property.

Alternatively, if he has 'hidden' money and declared differently, either in legal agreements, or to the court (or CSA), then that is 'making a false instrument' and is a criminal matter for the Police.

If you know he has money in a specific bank account, if the Court agrees a certain amount, the Court can 'garnishee' an account and seize the money directly from the account. To be considered if the property has already been sold.

The Court has authority to make him produce his bank statements and get him to prove how he maitains his lifestyle - if he says that his girlfriend or family member pays for certain things, HE HAS TO PROVE THIS.

I cannot emphasise the importance of getting a good solicitor for this.

Before anyone starts posting rude replys to this, I would like to point out that I believe fathers (and mothers) who leave their families, should make a reasonable contribution towards the upkeep of their children until they leave full-time education.

The matter of visitation rights is totally different and is not appropriate to this thread.

[Fran]

I wouldn't advise going to the CAB, as from personal experience, they have given me completely wrong advice. I also had dealings with a number of different CAB's through my previous job, it was surprising how few of the approaches from them were done either in the correct manner, or by anyone who had the slightest idea what they were talking about.

I used to work for the C.A.B. I'm surprised you were given "completely wrong advice" as advisors have 6 months training now and the standards required from funders have gone up too. I don't think you should be advising people not to go to the C.A.B. as it is free access to all sorts of information under one roof. Perhaps your gripe with them is to do with your previous employment (did you work for housing benefit or another similar agency?). It would be unusual to get "completely wrong" advice as the C.A.B. could be taken to court and are very careful about giving correct advice.

[Prudent]

If you apply for maintainence through the CSA you may be able to overcome this problem.
They will investiagte income where a parent's lifestyle is inconsistant with their stated earnings.If you can prove your case, a new award will be made.

I made an appeal over the award I received for my daughter. My ex husband (ironically a head teacher -paid by society to protect the welfare of children) tried to evade paying full maintance for his child. He declared an annual income of £38,000. His true income is £57,000. This meant I received £151.00 a month less than I should have for my daughter.

I took it to appeal and won. It was a very lenghty process. It was a 8 months before I finally got the full amount. He has to pay back to me (in installments) the amount which did not pay originally.

I don't know if this would work if your ex moved abroad.

[jockettuk]

for what its worth my child doesnt suffer in love or anything else from me .. My ex husband and i decided to have a child together to love and cherish for the rest all her life.. Our love for each other ended and he moved out and was full of promises for her untill he met up with someone else then all the promises and love etc seems to be waining.. Im the one that has to scrape together the money for school trips and we not talking abt a couple of pounds these days otherwise she will miss out on those so i go without so she doesnt.. he has never gone without in his life and why shouldnt i press for his payment to help with his daughter after all she is both our responsability as parents .. as for the csa.. yes they can help but in my case they made it worse for my daughter

[Plumpud]

I used to work for the C.A.B. !I'm surprised you were given "completely wrong advice" as advisors have 6 months training now and the standards required from funders have gone up too. I don't think you should be advising people not to go to the C.A.B. as it is free access to all sorts of information under one roof. Perhaps your gripe with them is to do with your previous employment (did you work for housing benefit or another similar agency?). It would be unusual to get "completely wrong" advice as the C.A.B. could be taken to court and are very careful about giving correct advice.


As one of my ex-colleagues now volunteers for the CAB, I am fully aware of the 6 months training. It is the equivalent of an evening course, which can usually be done once you have started volunteering.

I don't have a 'gripe' with them. I just don't like them being recommended as some 'cure-all'.

Personally I have had a number of experiences with the CAB's poor advice. When they told me there was no way I could change my eldest daughter's surname without her father's agreement. Despite her being known by a different surname on her medical and school records etc., she still had to have a passport in a different name. Some time later I discovered that as we had not been married all I had to do was a 'change of name deed'. The name change was at my daughter's request - not mine.

My friend consulted them when she left her husband, and was told all sorts of rubbish. I suggested she went to a solicitor for a free consultation, for a second opinion. They soon put her right. As her husband had neglected to divorce his previous wife (who had since died) before they were married (not telling either of them), he was a bigamist, so she couldn't divorce him. The marriage had to be annulled and the Police had to be informed.

I could quote you alot more besides.

As to my previous previous work, I worked for the Inland Revenue. I lost count of the number of times the CAB would phone up to discuss someone's tax affairs, without us having any written authority to deal with them. Despite them supposedly being trained that this is the case for all banks, building societies, other government departments etc. Then we'd get 'I'll fax it through' - no original signature, no good. This was consistant across at least 4 different CAB's. We tried outreach and invited them in to explain what we legally required, but we still got the same response. They never seemed to get the full picture from their client's of their individual situation. They also seemed to have little or no understanding of the very basics of tax, so I often wondered why they were representing someone who usually knew more about it than they did.

Back to my original point, there is no substitute for a good solicitor. One would hope that they know more about their specialist subject after years of full-time training and day to day work experience in the Courts, than a CAB worker with 6 months of night classes. There are bad solicitors as well as good, that is why I said get a good solicitor. They can easily be worth their weight in gold. Sometimes you have to pay for professional advice - but always do your homework first. I have used them at appropriate times through my life - criminal compensation claim, class action against the local council, buying and selling houses, maintenance claims in the Family Court, etc. - and they have saved me or gained me money every time.

Ask around and get recommendations. People always seem to be keen to recommend good solicitors - even if they solicitor in question was representing 'the other side'.

[pauljoedavis]

Sorry to pour cold water on your hopes but English court orders are not enforceable in France. French law alone applies.

Also the CSA are absolutely toothless.

A friend has been awaiting a single penny from her ex for over 18 months. Each time he moves the process starts again.

Court orders expire after 18th birthday but CSA can claim money for a child up to 19 when in full time education. They claim it but don't get far.

Court orders however can be altered if no longer reasonable but it means a visit to court. Get in quick before second child is 18.

Good luck

Paul

[sandra120000]

I think you should contact either a Solicitor, the Csa or your local family proceedings court as there is such a thing as a reciprocal maintenance Order.
Reciprocal Enforcement of Maintenance Orders - or REMO - is the process by which maintenance orders made by UK courts on behalf of UK residents can be registered and enforced by courts or other authorities in other countries against people resident there. I believe that France is a reciprocal country.

[cyberactivist]

Personally I think its a disgrace that non resident fathers are purused with zeal by envious ex wives who have nothing better to do with their time. There should be some moral responsibility to support your own children IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT. My ex wife cohabitted with a window cleaner in the house I paid the mortgage for every month - he had 2 jobs, a side fiddle business and she was working as well AND coining in child benefits, tax credits - the gravy train was in full flow. Ive always been rated as a NIL contirbution due to my very low income and being in FT university as a mature student. The boys are now 21 (out of age for CSA) 20 (now out of age for CSA) and 13 (who I send regular money to anyway and always have done. One of my sons doesnt even acknowledge my existence even though he is showered with pocket money, BDay and Xmas gifts, i have never given up or ignored him. The other two are very close.

However, the CSA have just written to me with a 'recalculation' claiming £15,000 plus in bac payments as the ex wife has told them tons of lies saying I was working a business when I wasn't and also stating I have an inherittance coming after losing my Mum. As soon as my Mum died, the ex was saying she wanted money out of me. I would rather pack up and move abroad than let that vampire have a single penny out of me.

Oh yeah, Ive heard all about impoverished women having to bring up the kids on their own bladi blah... it was her who took the decision to leap into bed with the windowcleaner... her who wanted a divorce.... her who was shacked up claiming benefits she wasnt entitled to with him in the house, poisoning my children against me. So hard up they completely refurbished the house, sometimes two all inclusive med holidays a year and the very latest gismos and gadets galore. hardly seems hard up does it, and especially when the money is payable to the mother and not the children directly. It often is squandered as in the case of my ex wayward Jezebel.

And yeah, I do have an axe to grind. If CSA money is due in line with what can be afforded, then it should go to the kids direct NOT the mothers who seem to save it up for holidays in the sun or a constant supply of new clothes and make up (as in my case). Also if you have no contact whatsoever with the so called 'child' involved despite trying, why the Hell should you have to pay anything. Ive heard of several fathers who are constantly denied access to their children, yet the mother still wants to coin it in from his pockets. Its a disgrace.

[Broken hearted]

The poor guy has lost his job and his career yet all the ex wants to do is put in the boot, why because he dares to have a partner who works. She is not responsible to pay for the children. The eldest can support themselves through uni and the younger one can get a saterday job then no-one has to go without.

[likabu]

The poor guy has lost his job and his career yet all the ex wants to do is put in the boot, why because he dares to have a partner who works. She is not responsible to pay for the children. The eldest can support themselves through uni and the younger one can get a saterday job then no-one has to go without.

This thread is 4 years old!!

[*Louise*]

I was going to reply - then notied the originasl post was 4 years ago!

I reckon the OP's granchildren are well past the age of the mother being able to claim anyhting now.

[Broken hearted]

I was going to reply - then notied the originasl post was 4 years ago!

I reckon the OP's granchildren are well past the age of the mother being able to claim anyhting now.
Good :beer:

[Lunar Eclipse]

Also if you have no contact whatsoever with the so called 'child' involved despite trying, why the Hell should you have to pay anything.


Because you are their father and thus 50% responsible for their financial upkeep. It has nothing to do with contact with them, or your feelings/relationship with your ex.

Having said that it is sad that due to limited/nil contact you are unable to share in full parental responsibility of your son/s.