Penalty Train Fares - Not Legally Enforcable

[RickS]

Since the railways were privatised, ticket prices unsurprisingy went up, largely filling the pockets of investors instead of improving the service. Not content with clobbering the ticketless with a £10 fine, recently all networks upped the 'penalty' to a full twenty quid. South West Trains issued a memo to its 'revenue enforcement' officers saying that they must always presume someone traveling without a ticket is guilty and to sting them for a score regardless of the excuse. But what if you arrived at the station, your train's about to leave and there's a big queue for tickets?

The penalty fares rules state that if there were "no facilities available to issue the appropriate ticket" you can't get done. One barrister, Richard Colbey, says this means that there must have been someone ready to sell you a ticket and if that person (or machine) is serving a queue then the facilities to buy aren't actually available. That's paragraph 7.4 of the penalty fares rules, by the way. To fine you the train company has to sue you through the county court and so far none have done so. Happy travelling!

Reference: http://money.guardian.co.uk/consumernews/story/0,,2114918,00.html

"Those who couldn't buy a ticket should politely refuse to pay the penalty. The guard is entitled to a name and address and to know where they got on, and will get off. Mentioning paragraph 7.4 of the penalty fare rules is likely to win the argument, at least on the train.

"If the guard issues a penalty notice anyway, there is 21 days to appeal to the company. However even if there is no appeal, or the appeal is not allowed, the company is not automatically entitled to its money. It first has to sue in the county court. Judges hearing such claims would not give judgment for the penalty sum unless the company could justify it.

"There has been no reported case of a train company suing in this way. The last thing the rail industry would want is a pronouncement by a judge on its levying of penalty fares. "

Please distribute this information as widely as possible.

[anewman]

It's probably because most people pay fares, or when they get a fine pay the fine. There was a fuss kicked up in leeds train station not so long ago mentioned in the news. A woman moved house so caught the train one stop further away (an extra 20p) and forgot when she asked for her ticket. An enforcement officer followed her and gave her a penalty.

[Hereward]

If you are using the argument that you could get a tickect becasue there was a queue at the station, I think you would quickly lose as its not upto the station staff to ensure that you arrive early enought to purchase a ticket and board your chosen train. I believe that Paragraph 7.4 refers to unmanned staions or stations that do not have ticket offices open 24 hours a day.

[sinizterguy]

If you can get away with stations having a queue then travelling from London must be free for all surely ? Every damn station I go to has queues for just about everything most of peak times.

If this is true, why does everyone bother to pay ?

[RickS]

If you are using the argument that you could get a tickect becasue there was a queue at the station, I think you would quickly lose as its not upto the station staff to ensure that you arrive early enought to purchase a ticket and board your chosen train. I believe that Paragraph 7.4 refers to unmanned staions or stations that do not have ticket offices open 24 hours a day.Paragraph 7.4 refers to any station that does not have facilities available to anyone wishing to purchase a ticket. Such facilities may not be available for a variety of reasons, such as an unmanned station, or a station with no ticket machine, or a fully open station with a large queue and not enough staff to serve that queue in a timely manner, as stated by the Barrister who wrote the article.

[RickS]

If this is true, why does everyone bother to pay ?Because you're supposed to pay for the service. Most train companies have service level targets and aim to serve passengers within a certain time of joining a queue. I don't have exact figures, however if, say, First Great Western aim to serve people within five minutes, or perhaps ten minutes at peak times, it is reasonable for passengers to expect to be served within that time frame. It is reasonable for the train company to expect people to wait ten minutes during peak times to be served. However if the station is short-staffed and the queue is out the door and round the block (as it was in Reading station recently) it is not reasonable or acceptable to expect passengers to wait 20 or 25 minutes for a ticket. Under such circumstances passengers should not pay the penalty ticket and quite rightly so.

[impy78]

What about the permit to travel machines, which they have at just about every train station in the UK?

Surely that counts as enabling you to buy at least something to travel with?

[RickS]

I'm just an ordinary passenger and by no means an expert. I'm not sure about those permits to travel. I would assume that you'd need one to get through a manned ticket barrier if there was nobody available or ready to sell a ticket. Is the ticket checker at the barrier obliged to open the barrier if the passenger intends buying a ticket on the train? Could they insist on a permit to travel? What is the legal situation with those permits to travel?

Thanks :)

[Conor]

The penalty fares rules state that if there were "no facilities available to issue the appropriate ticket" you can't get done. One barrister, Richard Colbey, says this means that there must have been someone ready to sell you a ticket and if that person (or machine) is serving a queue then the facilities to buy aren't actually available.

I think Richard Colbey is clutching at straws if he thinks that because a queue exists, you can't get hammered with a penalty fair for having no ticket.

[RickS]

I think the rail companies are clutching at straws if they think they can get away with charging passengers penalty fares when they hire more people to check tickets and issue penalty fares than to sell tickets! Think about it!

[Andy L]

However, what would you rather do, pay the £20 penalty or be thrown off the train at the next stop & have to wait for the next train - not to bad on a commuter route but if it's an inter-city that could be a couple of hours

[piptiddlepip]

What about the permit to travel machines, which they have at just about every train station in the UK?

Surely that counts as enabling you to buy at least something to travel with?

Surely you jest. Have you ever tried using one of those? I have, and EVERY SINGLE TIME it has swallowed my £1 and given me nothing back.

[RickS]

£1? I usually put in 20p! Ha!

[Hereward]

I'm just an ordinary passenger and by no means an expert. I'm not sure about those permits to travel. I would assume that you'd need one to get through a manned ticket barrier if there was nobody available or ready to sell a ticket. Is the ticket checker at the barrier obliged to open the barrier if the passenger intends buying a ticket on the train? Could they insist on a permit to travel? What is the legal situation with those permits to travel?

Thanks :)

Permits to travel can be exchanged for tickets at your earliest convenience (they never are though they're just treated as tickets), so a manned ticket barrier would let you through. If you turned up at a manned barrier any said you wanted to purchase a ticket on the train, they would turn you away as you must have a valid ticket (or permit to travel/travel warrant) before you are allowed to pass.

[moonrakerz]

I heard someone on the radio last night saying that he took photos (on his 'phone) of the closed ticket office and the out-of-order ticket machine to prevent any arguments on the train. This worked - and those photos have worked lots of other times since !