Private Parking Fine

[bambam69]

Hi

I wonder if anyone knows anything about private parking fines, rather than ones you get from the council for illegal parking etc?

I have had a couple for parking in a university car park. One was for parking on the grass (not in anybodies way and only because there were no proper spaces available, I even got a ticket from the machine!) and another because I didn't have change and only went to college to take books back to the library, was gone max of 5 minutes and had a ticket when I came back (it would have taken the same amount of time to go in and get change from the shop anyway!).

Unfortunately I lost the tickets when I cleaned out the car but thought this wouldn't be a problem as they write to you anyway in case someone takes them off the windscreen. Months passed, they didn't follow it up and I confess I thought maybe they'd not bother, but this week I have had two identical letters through in the same week demmanding 70 quid each. No other reminders etc, just an increase of over 50%!

I am fairly disgusted with this as it seems the uni is trying to squeeze money out of the people it is supposed to be educating. I have never heard of a car park demmanding money on weekend evenings when there is no-one there, or sundays, or bank hols but this one does. Even council pay and displays are free when there is little demmand such as these examples.

The letter says I have to pay immediately or they will pass the matter to their soliciters to consider legal action. I am not a rich student being put through college by a rich mum and dad and really can't afford this. What shoyuld I do and what are they likely to do?

Help very appreciated!

R

[rikbar]

Hey Dude,

Be warned, at my uni if you had outstanding fines at the end of your course, be it library or parking etc then they may withold your degree unless they are paid in full. This is normally part of the terms of your student contract when you start your course and as far as I am aware has not been challenged sucessfully yet.

With regards the fine, do not assume that they will chase you for their money, they already informed you of the fine when they gave you a ticket. Parking outside the confines of a space is a normal fineable item in most car parks and it might not matter if you were not in the way, and being minus a ticket is yet another. Without the purchased tickets I doubt you will have much joy in defending the tickets.

I would contact the uni and try and claim some kind of poverty and see if they will reduce the fines to the original fee, but as I say unlike a typical private fine you may have trouble ahead as they might withold your final degree, and I am sure that is worth more than the money.

I hope all goes well

Rikbar

[Elle00]

Well if you want genuine, honest advice - pay the fines you clearly owe!

Firstly you parked on grass instead of a specified parking bay (imagine if everyone did that when the spaces ran out?) and then you went to return some books with no intention of even paying on your return - so intended on parking for free anyway not getting some change.

Then, to top it off YOU threw away both fines and didn't bother to chase up the matter with the uni which you would have been able to do within the 14 days of issue thus paying the original fines and not the inflated ones you've been handed for throwing away fines!!!

I just don't see so much as a toe to stand on here mate. Pay up and park properly next time!!!

[Hermione54]

demmanding money on weekend evenings when there is no-one there, or sundays, or bank hols but this one does. Even council pay and displays are free when there is little demmand such as these examples.

The letter says I have to pay immediately or they will pass the matter to their soliciters

Blimey, I hope you're not doing a degree in English!

[Idiophreak]

I agree pretty much with Elle83

Parking on the grass is worth a fine - people work hard to try and keep campus grounds looking nice.

Not paying for a ticket (even for "just 5 minutes") is worth a fine.

If you didn't appeal or pay the fines at the lower rate, that's hardly the Uni's fault...

I think you just need to pay up and think more when parking in future.

[ckerrd]

You could write and say you lost the originals which is why you didn't pay and you would now like to pay the original amount, please.

There is a Uni car park near me which charges all the time - must make a small fortune in the evenings when many people assume it is free.

[bambam69]

Sweet baby Jesus!

I love this site and its forum but some people really do take full advantage of the opportunity to get on their self righteous high horse!

What perfect sin-free lives some people must lead, and what perfect worlds they must live in. It is clear that the answer is to move to the perfectly run Utopia they live in, away from the travails life in my city seems to throw up... Clearly in the places some people live the car parks are never full, and the parking machine accepts notes and card payments as well as small change. Although perhaps Elle and her friends have more small change in their pocket as I imagine instead of buying the occasional Big Issue or putting a few pence in someone less fortunates hand they probably lecture them for 5 minutes on how they have ruined their own lives and wasted all the free education given them by Mrs Thatcher, possibly giving them a small kick when they are down.

It is a University. It is meant to educate people. It is not meant to extort huge fines for minor offences.

Given that there is nowhere within half a mile that isn't resident parking or yellow lined, where would any of you have parked when there are no spaces? And who on earth would buy a parking ticket on the way out of a car park, when the minimum cost is a pound for half a day and you are now leaving after 5 minutes? Are you really so concerned about taking money away from the poor company directors charging students to use thier own car park at 3 am on christmas day should they feel the need? It wouldn't have made a difference if I had got change to buy a ticket on the way out I would still have had a fine!

Some people make my blood boil as is probably obvious, I know that by the letter of the law I haven't got much to stand on but that doesn’t always mean that there aren't mitigating factors.

Here's a beautiful English word for you - sanctimonious.
Spell check that, pedants!

[anewman]

Do what I do and leave the car at home and walk to university. No parking problems and is much cheaper. Don't be lazy and walk/catch the bus, it's cheaper than paying to park and stress free + keeps you fit. I've never ever had a parking ticket.

I personally think the Univeristy *is* educatiing you with the fine. The education is park within the rules, or leave the car at home, or get a fine.

Most universities that do have any parking it is usually all taken unless you arrive particularly early, and I think most universities will point out student parking is limited.

As for the no change problem if you keep a good amount in the car you will always have some in case of emergencies.

Not trying to be self-righteous, just realistic. 1 million students need to be at uni, say half are lucky enough to be able to afford to run a car, and there are less than 1000 spaces. Something's got to give.

[Elle00]

Sweet baby Jesus!

I love this site and its forum but some people really do take full advantage of the opportunity to get on their self righteous high horse!

No I was just PMSL at your blatant ignorance! Nothing "sanctimonious" about it, I nearly cried with laughter.

What perfect sin-free lives some people must lead, and what perfect worlds they must live in. It is clear that the answer is to move to the perfectly run Utopia they live in, away from the travails life in my city seems to throw up... Clearly in the places some people live the car parks are never full, and the parking machine accepts notes and card payments as well as small change. Although perhaps Elle and her friends have more small change in their pocket as I imagine instead of buying the occasional Big Issue or putting a few pence in someone less fortunates hand they probably lecture them for 5 minutes on how they have ruined their own lives and wasted all the free education given them by Mrs Thatcher, possibly giving them a small kick when they are down.

If you think spending the last year struggling to be a young single Mother, working in a degrading and tiring shop job and attending college part-time is somehow a perfect life you surprise me considering the special treatment you think you deserve for what appears to me to be a pretty easy life in comparison. I frequently have to lug my 30lb toddler and bags of shopping for what should be a two minute walk but takes ten minutes to get to my flat because all of the spaces are gone but as upsetting as it is, I know I have to respect the rules the same as everyone else does else the parking system would be in anarchy. I sincerely doubt you regularly buy the Big Issue although thanks if you do because it has helped those of us who have experienced extreme poverty and homelessness (not that you'd actually know about that though right, thanks to your rich parents?).

It is a University. It is meant to educate people. It is not meant to extort huge fines for minor offences.

In fairness they're obviously not doing a great job of teaching students to respect rules, appreciate that they are equal to their peers and obey rules but at least they are trying by reinforcing the parking rules they have in place.

Given that there is nowhere within half a mile that isn't resident parking or yellow lined, where would any of you have parked when there are no spaces? And who on earth would buy a parking ticket on the way out of a car park, when the minimum cost is a pound for half a day and you are now leaving after 5 minutes? Are you really so concerned about taking money away from the poor company directors charging students to use thier own car park at 3 am on christmas day should they feel the need? It wouldn't have made a difference if I had got change to buy a ticket on the way out I would still have had a fine!

I really do not think half a mile would have killed me and you don't say you have any medical conditions so if I could manage then I'm sure you could too. If you had genuinely gone to get change to pay for parking you would likely have been let off one of the fines because you did not intend to park illegally and were trying to remedy the situation. Most people would have been bright enough to buy a ticket regardless of seeing the fine to "prove" that's what they were doing. As for 3am on Christmas Day, wow you're a bad liar! You're telling me the uni was so packed at 3am on Christmas Day that you had to park on the grass? Or are you suggesting the library is open at that time? No parking attendant works at 3am any day!!

Some people make my blood boil as is probably obvious, I know that by the letter of the law I haven't got much to stand on but that doesn’t always mean that there aren't mitigating factors.

Here's a beautiful English word for you - sanctimonious.
Spell check that, pedants!

Yeah, no there really aren't any mitigating factors here. You have enough money to run a car, rich parents to support you through the further education you are undertaking out of choice (nobody forced you to be a student) and you deserve the fines you have been given. If you'd come on here saying that you had gone to get change, were being absent-minded, suffer from a medical condition that makes transport difficult etc people would have been only too happy to help find loopholes for you. But as it stands you deliberately broke the law because you think you're somehow more special and deserving than everyone else!

That's all I'll say on the matter. Take it like an adult and learn from your mistakes. Nothing worse than those who go through life blaming everyone else for their mistakes. The uni are not at fault here and you did not park illegally out of protestation - you did so out of obnoxious laziness.

[Hermione54]

Here's a beautiful English word for you - sanctimonious.
Spell check that, pedants!

Well done - you got that one right. Now how about 'demanding' and 'solicitor'

[ckerrd]

Sweet baby Jesus!

I love this site and its forum but some people really do take full advantage of the opportunity to get on their self righteous high horse!

What perfect sin-free lives some people must lead, and what perfect worlds they must live in. It is clear that the answer is to move to the perfectly run Utopia they live in, away from the travails life in my city seems to throw up... Clearly in the places some people live the car parks are never full, and the parking machine accepts notes and card payments as well as small change. Although perhaps Elle and her friends have more small change in their pocket as I imagine instead of buying the occasional Big Issue or putting a few pence in someone less fortunates hand they probably lecture them for 5 minutes on how they have ruined their own lives and wasted all the free education given them by Mrs Thatcher, possibly giving them a small kick when they are down.

It is a University. It is meant to educate people. It is not meant to extort huge fines for minor offences.

Given that there is nowhere within half a mile that isn't resident parking or yellow lined, where would any of you have parked when there are no spaces? And who on earth would buy a parking ticket on the way out of a car park, when the minimum cost is a pound for half a day and you are now leaving after 5 minutes? Are you really so concerned about taking money away from the poor company directors charging students to use thier own car park at 3 am on christmas day should they feel the need? It wouldn't have made a difference if I had got change to buy a ticket on the way out I would still have had a fine!

Some people make my blood boil as is probably obvious, I know that by the letter of the law I haven't got much to stand on but that doesn’t always mean that there aren't mitigating factors.

Here's a beautiful English word for you - sanctimonious.
Spell check that, pedants!

Made me smile a lot.
So many holes in your argument that it is laughable.

What an unfair world it is indeed, and it is the only one we have so we better get used to it.

[Optimist]

Hi
The letter says I have to pay immediately or they will pass the matter to their soliciters to consider legal action. I am not a rich student being put through college by a rich mum and dad and really can't afford this. What shoyuld I do and what are they likely to do?

Help very appreciated! R


What should you do..My view is to bite the bullet and pay the fine.

What are they likely to do if you do not pay.. Not too sure about a university car park but if run along the same lines as a private car park they will put the debt collectors on to you which will be more hassle plus extra cost.

[alanrowell]

I have never heard of a car park demmanding money on weekend evenings when there is no-one there, or sundays, or bank hols but this one does. Even council pay and displays are free when there is little demmand such as these examples.
I think you need to get out more. I know places where Sunday, Bank Holiday and even evening parking isn't free - even in council car parks

[herbie-152]

Hi

Let's not get too moralistic about this shall we. If you always keep your bank account in credit, you may not be too excited about the success that this site has had in reclaiming "illegal" charges, but I for one think it deserves applause.

If we can avoid being judgmental for a moment about the original case here, there are at least two very important points that we should consider:

1. Under what law are the private parking company dishing out a fine?

If you receive a fine for parking on the road then you are covered under the Road Traffic Act 1991, even if its is a private contractor, as long as the Council has a Special Parking Order in place. This does not apply however, to private car parks. In fact, the legal position of the operator is so tenuous, that they don't call it a fine or a penalty, but stick to words like "notice".

It would appear that the only legal positions that they have are to either prosecute you in a civil court for trespass - time consuming and patently ridiculous if you've been shopping in their client's store - or that they are relying on penalising you because they have notices up saying that they are going to do so. As we know from the bank charges campaign, any penalty charged under a contract in English law, must be proportional to the actual costs incurred. You cannot penalise someone just because you say you are going to or else the banks would not be giving millions back. I would question that £50 for 20 minutes parking is proportionate.

2. Can a private car parking firm get your details from DVLA?

Surprisingly, yes they can! The government has given private operators a loophole under the The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 to request owners' details from DVLA if they have "reasonable cause" to receive it. Parking on private land is deemed to be a reasonable cause. The DVLA has ignored all comments regarding data protection legislation and has also decided that it is too onerous for them to write to owners to tell them that their details have been requested.

So before we all get too judgmental about where other people park - ask yourself whether you want to be "fined" by a private company who has no legal right to do so because they don't like what you've done: and, probably more scarily, are you happy with a private company being able to get your name and address from the DVLA? Just a thought.

[anewman]

As we know from the bank charges campaign, any penalty charged under a contract in English law, must be proportional to the actual costs incurred.

Parking somewhere incorrectly and keeping your bank in credit are two different things - and this argument is unlikely to bear out in a court of law. Besides, when you park somewhere there is no legal contract. If I come park in your drive there's no contract between me and you, but your drive is your private land.

Also fines are not for length of time parked. They will no doubt pay the parking enforcement officer's wage and the cost of administration and charges for DVLA searches and so on.

You can either park correctly or expect a fine. What would the world be like if we all just parked where we liked?

If it *really* is like you say then there will be caselaw of someone parking on private property, not paying the fine, the case going to court and them getting off without paying the fine. I doubt there are any cases and I doubt that isn't because everyone pays the fines, or that private parking companies are too lazy to take the cases to court. If people were successful in getting off with fines, everyone would park how they liked on private land and laugh off the notices throwing them on the ground. In fact private land would become the best the best haven for motorists to avoid penalty notices, and everyone would park in superstore car parks that charge to prevent people using the car park while not shopping there, and not pay..

Don't give the OP any false hope as they'll just land in a much bigger mess than they already are. Paying up now is the best approach unless you can provie firm evidence to the contrary that after parking incorrectly on private land and being given a notice, you can take the case to court and get off with it.

[ckerrd]

Perhaps it was not covered by English Law but Scots Law.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/sc514.html

[Conor]

I have never heard of a car park demmanding money on weekend evenings when there is no-one there, or sundays, or bank hols but this one does. Even council pay and displays are free when there is little demmand such as these examples.


Sorry but you're wrong. Around here, the Council Car Parks charge Sundays and Bank Hols and Disabled are NOT exempt. Only day they don't charge for is Xmas day.

[bambam69]

Thanks Herbie for being the only one who actually gave me the information I was asking for.

Everyone else, I'm not saying I was blameless but merely stating that I do not think the 'punishment' fits the crime. A minor fine or whatever, ok. But 70 quid each in a university car park is a bit much no? So that in mind I wanted to know where I stood legally, not morally( but even morally have my transgretions caused 140 quid of damage, or are they merely trying to make money out of people who can ill afford it?).

And Elle, I'm an independent student, I was driving my husbands car who earns little over minimum wage, I DO NOT have rich parents supporting me, I have struggled all year to keep 2 jobs and go to Uni, the campus is 8 miles from where I live. Anything else? I sympathise with life as a single parent, I take it you don't ever ask for help or support as you "brought it on yourself etc". If you are trying to say you were homeless once then I am sorry but your holier than thou attitude betrays you. I worked with homeless people for 3 months and I never ever met I self righteous one! Besides, sleeping rough is a crime. Surely you deserved punishment, you knew the rules right?

I was not saying that I was there at 3 am on christmas but merely making the point that if I was I would be expected to pay for a ticket even though there can be no grounds for charging at this time as there would be no one else there (the Uni say they have to charge as if they didn't everyone would park there all day etc. Fair enough, but why charge at off peak time when there is little demmand? The everyday charges pay for the carparks upkeep. Answer-They want to squeezed students dry...)

And I'm not trying to say I'm special or deserve special treatment, far from it, I don't think that ANYBODY should expect such improportionate 'fines'. If they were realistic for the offense I would pay them without quibble, but I refuse to pay whatever they ask for just because they have sent a few letters.

[Altarf]

I don't think that ANYBODY should expect such improportionate 'fines'. If they were realistic for the offense I would pay them without quibble, but I refuse to pay whatever they ask for just because they have sent a few letters.

But the point of a fine is to stop somebody doing something. If the fine is 'affordable' then people will just ignore the restriction and pay the fine.

[rikbar]

Bambam

Which university are you at?

As I mentioned earlier, some DO hold onto your degree until you pay things like this, as such if yours is one that does, pay now while the cost is somewhat small. If they keep challenging you etc and incurring more expense are you really going to want to pay a huge bill to graduate just because of this.

Ignoring parking fines is OK unless you are relying on the person fining you for something else which they can use as a lever to make you pay. It may not seem right, but a lot of Unis do it and theres not much you can do about it.

Hope all comes good

Rikbar

[anewman]

But the point of a fine is to stop somebody doing something. If the fine is 'affordable' then people will just ignore the restriction and pay the fine.

Yep was a programme on TV recently about traffic wardens. One traffic warden described how a man in a really expensive car would park on double yellows like clockwork to go buy a coffee. The traffic warden would be there to put the ticket on the car and the traffic warden joked about how it must be the most expensive cup of coffee ever.

[anewman]

But 70 quid each in a university car park is a bit much no? So that in mind I wanted to know where I stood legally, not morally( but even morally have my transgretions caused 140 quid of damage, or are they merely trying to make money out of people who can ill afford it?).

If you cannot afford it you should have realised the first time and taken notice of the thing put on your windscreen saying exactly what would happen. You ignored the first one and you did not park within the rules after getting the first one. You also ignored the fact that the fine would increase if you did not pay up.

Also if you cannot afford £140, how can you afford the £135 or so road tax when that comes up? Seems to me like you can afford what you need to but not what you don't want to.

You could have been treated even worse. Your car could have been clamped and if you didn't pay then your car could have been towed away. I personally think you're getting off quite lightly.

[ckerrd]

Thanks Herbie for being the only one who actually gave me the information I was asking for.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but in the original post you asked what you should do - and many people gave you advice. Pay the fines.

If you want a different answer, ask a different question.

[reduceditem]

Private firms running wild charging parking fines and clamping people on a THIRD PARTY'S land will enjoy reading this thread to know they can continue this ludicrous practice with the approval of so many!

If you do not reply in writing or by telephone to the demands you cannot be prosecuted. They need you to confirm your address as the DVLA info is not sufficient. My advice is that you do not confirm it to them....you are under no legal obligation to do so.

Parking fines from a local authority incurred on the public road are another matter and should be paid if correctly issued.

[Optimist]

Thanks Herbie for being the only one who actually gave me the information I was asking for.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but in the original post you asked what you should do - and many people gave you advice. Pay the fines.

If you want a different answer, ask a different question.

Very true the OP asked a question and Herbie gave the answer that the OP agreed with, not the answer that was necessarily correct. If you do decide to ignore the letters you received then I hope you come back at a later date and let us know how much you finally had to pay.

[reduceditem]

The DVLA can confirm who is the current registered keeper of a car, that is all. Legally this means precisely nothing, it's just an indicator. A private parking firm cannot proceed against you (other than sending threatening letters) until they verify these details and that can only be done by somebody replying to them or phoning them up. Not responding will have one sure outcome...you will pay nothing. I have received probably about 5 'fines' from firms like these over the years...I have paid nothing, never been 'taken to court' and my credit rating is unaffected. These firms rely on bullying and fear to extort money....I see no reason to comply.

If you turned your car on my drive and as you paused to shift gear I ran out and slapped a piece of paper on your car saying that you owe me £60 would you pay it?

Its only when they bolt a clamp onto your wheel that they've really got you by the goolies.

[ckerrd]

Private firms running wild charging parking fines and clamping people on a THIRD PARTY'S land will enjoy reading this thread to know they can continue this ludicrous practice with the approval of so many!

If you do not reply in writing or by telephone to the demands you cannot be prosecuted. They need you to confirm your address as the DVLA info is not sufficient. My advice is that you do not confirm it to them....you are under no legal obligation to do so.

Parking fines from a local authority incurred on the public road are another matter and should be paid if correctly issued.

I am not sure I understand.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that if I was a landlord and decided to use some of my land as a car park then I could expect to charge people for parking there. I would also wish to penalise in some way those who ignored the parking charges. Employing a firm who would patrol and serve fine/penalties/notices also seems sensible.

Is it the legality of employing another firm to do this that is in question, or the charges themselves?

[Timmne]

A minor fine or whatever, ok. But 70 quid each in a university car park is a bit much no?

I tried to stay away from posting but I must - my guess is that if you'd have paid the fines when they were due they wouldn't be £70 each, probably more like £35 with a 100% increase if you don't pay within 14 days.

I got a fine a while ago - it was my fault for not topping up the meter early enough so what did I do? I PAID IT!!

I'm certainly not wealthy but I know that if someone needs paying they're not just going to disappear and it'll always end up costing you more when you do eventually pay it.

Last point - parking "just for five minutes" is like driving at 33mph in a 30mph zone - it's wrong! You see it as "only just" breaking the rules but it's either breaking them or it's not - there's no inbetween.

[herbie-152]

Please note, I am only talking here about private firms - this is not a rant against parking wardens or on-street parking tickets or anything to do with parking meters.

I think its important here to differentiate between our legal and moral position. We could argue for ever about the morality of this situation but what concerns me is the legal position of these private companies giving out "fines" at their sole discretion and the DVLA potentially giving out my details without my permission.

What still concerns me is that private firms are penalising consumers who have not broken any law. If they haven't broken the law then either these companies are trying to demand money with menaces - blackmail - or are trying to exercise a penalty clause under contract law. In this regard, I still think this is very similar to the excess bank charge situation. There is very little difference here between accidentally going £10 overdrawn and being penalised £38 and being accidentally 10 minutes late back to your car and being penalised £30.

If these fines were backed up by the law, I would not be arguing my point on this thread. The point that is being missed here time and again is that people are being fined without having broken any law by an organisation that they cannot influence directly (unlike local or national government). This is bullying. ckerrd comments below that he would expect to be able to do the same but that is not the case. If someone parked on your drive without permission, you would have legal recourse, but not an ability to fine them. Likewise, the DVLA would not give you the details of the registered owner.

Some of you may argue that everyone should park pretty and keep within the time limits. In a perfect world I agree: but in a perfect world no-one would exceed their overdraft limit and private companies wouldn't get away with fining the public because they fancy it. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world, but at least as this site has shown, we don't just have to lie down and let these companies walk all over us.

[Timmne]

They may not have broken the LAW but have broken RULES - it's private property!

If someone constantly parked on your front lawn you'd be pretty quick to find a solution at a guess - the most efficient way is to introduce fining.

Just because it's a university in question rather than your front lawn doesn't make any difference. It's still private property and the land owners are free to do what they want to stop people using it as their own parking areas!

[reduceditem]

ckerrd....I'm not challenging the legality of anything (we could do that on another thread). I'm simply stating the legal position on enforcement of these 'fines' as it relates to the issuer and the person who receives it.

[herbie-152]

They may not have broken the LAW but have broken RULES - it's private property!

If someone constantly parked on your front lawn you'd be pretty quick to find a solution at a guess - the most efficient way is to introduce fining.

Just because it's a university in question rather than your front lawn doesn't make any difference. It's still private property and the land owners are free to do what they want to stop people using it as their own parking areas!

Timmne - this is an interesting point, but who has set these rules? It isn't the law or even a by-law. The local or national government haven't been involved. We're talking here exclusively about "rules" set by private companies and then enforced by the same companies.

Land owners are free to limit access to their land - subject to right of ways etc. - but they are not free to arbitrarily fine members of the public. They are land owners NOT courts!

[ckerrd]

ckerrd....I'm not challenging the legality of anything (we could do that on another thread). I'm simply stating the legal position on enforcement of these 'fines' as it relates to the issuer and the person who receives it.


To keep me right then, is it the case that a person who parks without paying or in a space not designated for parking, such as described by the OP, cannot be pursued for any fines, as set out by the owner of the land?

[sparky_1]

Well ive heard opinions supporting both sides in this thread ie to pay or not to pay private firms "parking charges". But surely the factor which decides who is right and who is wrong is the side that can say "here is plenty of case evidence proving that people who are deciding not to pay private parking companys charges are being taken to court and LOSING. The courts are supporting the private parking companys" or alternatively " cases that have gone to court ARE being thrown out because at the end of the day, like bank charges, private parking companys "parking charges" are not proportionate and do not have any law supporting them. ie you cannot just decide you are going to fine someone and decide you will fine them any figure you please!"

Now IS there any real case evidence supporting either side in this argument ? Does anyone have any real evidence that Private parking companys are losing in court or is everything in this thread just personal opinion ?

In the case of bank charges the decision to tell people to challenge them is based on proof that the banks are NOT disputing the matter or winning in court because the law does not support them. Well plenty of people here are stating that the law does not support car parking companys and that they wont take the matter to court or win. Well surely a claim like that is easy to prove. Is this just personal opinion or IS this being proved to be true in the actual courts or are people being taken to court and losing.

[herbie-152]

Sparky

Thanks for bringing some shape to the argument. Unfortunately I don't know the answer to your question. I have read other message boards where people have gone to court and the case has been thrown out, but that is just heresay.

I would also be very interested in knowing if anyone has first hand experience. If the car park operator has a hold over you - e.g. school/university or employer - then the situation is obviously difficult. What I'm interested in is the shopping mall type operator.

What I can bring to the argument is that Euro Car Parks (whom I spoke to yesterday) refuse to call the ticket a "fine" or a "penalty" but only a "charge notice". I can only think that this is to allow them to argue like the banks have done that this isn't a penalty but rather a charge for operating the service.

I am going to ignore the ticket that my wife got while shopping and I'll keep the thread updated with my progress.

Thanks.

[ckerrd]

The legality was obviously challenged in Scotland (see post 16) and the authority of the car park owner/finer was upheld in that they could levy "fines" as there was a clear indication of that being done and by parking in an area designated for permit holders only, people accepted the ability to be fined.

I know what you mean about the shopping mall type situation, however I suspect in Scots Law the same would apply. Interestingly wheel clamping on private land is illegal in Scotland when it was ruled "extortion and theft" in a court case.

[herbie-152]

To keep me right then, is it the case that a person who parks without paying or in a space not designated for parking, such as described by the OP, cannot be pursued for any fines, as set out by the owner of the land?
ckerrd: As far as I can work out, these are some of the pertinent facts:

1. You are breaking no criminal laws by parking on private land longer than someone wants you to.
2. An individual or company cannot impose a fine for breach of contract on another individual or company under English law that is disproportionate.
3. An individual or company cannot demand that another individual or company pays a fine that they have given out without a court order.
4. An individual or company may have some form of legal redress, e.g. trespass or breach of contract, against another individual or company, but this must involve the courts.
5. Unfortunately, the DVLA have decided that they can legally hand out the details of a car's registered owner on requested by a car park operator. This has been hotly contested but I don't believe the DVLA have been challenged in the courts and according to the DVLA website they are continuing to do so.

I accept that this doesn't give you a complete answer but hope that it helps a little.

[ckerrd]

very interesting.

I can understand about not breaking any criminal law.
Appears to be a split in the way this is handled North/South of the border.

I wonder what would happen if everyone going to a shopping centre/mall/ etc etc decided not to pay. Would the companies have to go through the courts every time to recalim the money? Blimey, what a palaver.

[Elle00]

And Elle, I'm an independent student, I was driving my husbands car who earns little over minimum wage, I DO NOT have rich parents supporting me, I have struggled all year to keep 2 jobs and go to Uni, the campus is 8 miles from where I live. Anything else? I sympathise with life as a single parent, I take it you don't ever ask for help or support as you "brought it on yourself etc". If you are trying to say you were homeless once then I am sorry but your holier than thou attitude betrays you. I worked with homeless people for 3 months and I never ever met I self righteous one! Besides, sleeping rough is a crime. Surely you deserved punishment, you knew the rules right?

Excuse me but you're the one who started on with the sob story! And you're also the one who mentioned having rich parents... You've dug your own hole mate - don't try and pull the rest of us down with you. You asked for advice and I offered you the only viable option I see available to you: Pay the fines you clearly owe. I wasn't the one who got nasty and personal in the first instance and I think you owe me an apology for being so downright spiteful and assumptive. Sorry you didn't hear what you wanted to hear but I don't know what on earth you expected. This site is supposed to help people improve their finances by managing their money and using cheaper products etc. It's not here to help people escape paying fines they knew they would get for disobeying rules that the rest of us have to follow.

And how DARE you imply I deserve to be on my own with a young child it took two parents to create. That is just downright malicious.

[bambam69]

As has been pointed out on previous replies, they are not fines as a fine implies having broken a law. If the 'fine' was reasonable (if not particularly justified in my opinion) then I would have paid it by now and this would not be an issue. But it isn't, it is way out of proportion.
Others have said if the amount was affordable then people would just rack up the fines every day but this is not true. If it was a 5 or 10 pound fine payable to the university then people would still get a ticket from the machine for 1 pound wouldn't they? I didn't park in the middle of the road and block an ambulance! The government talked a few months ago of creating a more fair parking ticket system whereby people people who are 5 minutes late are not treated the same as people who park in front of fire stations etc, as is now the case. This again backs up in theory what I am saying, that parking tickets are often out of proportion.
And I do believe there are strong parallels between this sort of thing and the bank charges issue. Why not? You know the penalty for going overdrawn, if you break "THE RULES" (thanks for capitalising Timmne, you make it look even more petty) you are penalised. You don't have to have an account with the bank, you have signed that you agree to the terms and conditions (unlike when you park in a car park, where they do not give you advance written notice of the potential penalties), so when you get a 40 pound charge for being 1p overdrawn fair enough, right?
If someone can explain to me the difference between breaking one set of RULES (sorry, but the caps make me laugh every time) and another, then I would be grateful. Otherwise I'll assume that all the people on this forum who have expressed an opinion that I have no point challenging this, 140 quid is very fair, and I'm essentially whining about something which is my own fault are expending equal amounts of energy telling Martin that the bank charges are fair, all the people trying to wriggle out of them knew the rules, etc etc.

And Elle, you seem to misunderstand. I am not saying that you have brought single motherhood on yourself etc, but merely that many in society who choose not to look at the details of someones life may draw this conclusion. I feel that you were very quick to pass judgement on MY situation with moral pontificating, when someone in a situation so often moralised against could have had more understanding. That is all.

[bambam69]

Also, for all those that pointed out that I asked for advice and now smugly tell me that they did indeed give me advice (pay up), thanks very much.

It's a bit like the doctor saying you have cancer and you replying "What can I do?"
and the doctor saying "Die?"

[ckerrd]

Also, for all those that pointed out that I asked for advice and now smugly tell me that they did indeed give me advice (pay up), thanks very much.

It's a bit like the doctor saying you have cancer and you replying "What can I do?"
and the doctor saying "Die?"

A somewhat poor analogy.

You asked for advice.
Got it.
In my case I suggested that you contacted the Uni and asked if you could pay the orginal fine, others suggested you cough up the full amount. Yet another suggested you may be able to ignore it.

All advice freely given - if you don't like it then fine. (no pun intended)

And if you do go to the doctor with cancer one of the options is to have no medical intervention of any sort and indeed you may die quicker than you would have had you not had cancer. Or you may not.....

[Ironick]

I don't see why people hae to get so worked up about things, the OP's (and respondents') personal circumstances are surley irrelevant.

Essentially you have 2 choices;
a) Pay
b) Don't pay, recieve letters through the post and ignore them, I don't think they can realistically make you pay. You were parked incorrectly so getting the "notices" cancelled or reduced is not an option.

Don't worry about the threat of not letting you graduate, the car is in your husband's name, even if it was in yours I doubt the university have any way of linking you the student with this fine. Library fines and money owed directly to the university are different.

[Elle00]

And Elle, you seem to misunderstand. I am not saying that you have brought single motherhood on yourself etc, but merely that many in society who choose not to look at the details of someones life may draw this conclusion. I feel that you were very quick to pass judgement on MY situation with moral pontificating, when someone in a situation so often moralised against could have had more understanding. That is all.

In your OP you went out of your way to morally justify why it was okay that you shouldn't be fined for parking incorrectly - so I responded to clarify that from my point of view yes you should be. Your post was not a simple one-line question; the overall question was preceeded by a short essay exploring the moral issues surrounding the way in which you obtained the fines.

You started the debate so I don't know why you then took exception to other people contributing.

I'm still waiting for an apology.

[Altarf]

As far as I can work out, these are some of the pertinent facts:

1. You are breaking no criminal laws by parking on private land longer than someone wants you to.

Correct, but the landowner could sue you for the loss they have incurred by you trespassing on their land. They are also allowed to clamp you, subject to the Private Security Industry Act 2001 and charge a fee to release the car.

2. An individual or company cannot impose a fine for breach of contract on another individual or company under English law that is disproportionate.

What most of the car parks do, is not impose a penalty for breaching the conditions, but allow you to do things subject to a charge. For example, "Free parking for 2 hours providing you use our shop, £150 after two hours or if you don't use our shop, or park outside a bay, or park in a disabled bay without a blue badge, etc". They are not saying you cannot park for more than 2 hours, etc, but are saying you can and if you do then you have agreed to pay £150.

3. An individual or company cannot demand that another individual or company pays a fine that they have given out without a court order.

It's not a fine, but an agreed charge between the vehicle driver and the landowner. The landowner can pursue the driver for the amount that they agreed to pay.

4. An individual or company may have some form of legal redress, e.g. trespass or breach of contract, against another individual or company, but this must involve the courts.

But as described above, unless the car has been clamped, then in all probability the amount being sought will not be for trespass or breach of contract, but for money due under an agreed contract.

5. Unfortunately, the DVLA have decided that they can legally hand out the details of a car's registered owner on requested by a car park operator. This has been hotly contested but I don't believe the DVLA have been challenged in the courts and according to the DVLA website they are continuing to do so.

In fact the DVLA will give out information to anybody who can demonstrate "reasonable cause" (I think that you bumped into my car is given as an example) - http://www.dvla.gov.uk/foi/relinfo.aspx

On other internet sites, people are arguing that they have no legal duty to advise the landowner who the driver is and it is up to the landowner to prove who it is. To date the car park operators seem reluctant to push the debt to court, probably because they get a high enough payment rate anyway with the legalistic threat letters they issue and as it would end up in the small claims court they would have difficulty getting their costs back. However if they did, then since such cases are "on the balance of probability" you might well lose if you refused to tell the court (or "couldn't remember") who the driver was as they might surmise "on the balance of probability" it was you.

[Hapless]

I should imagine that if you park on privater property you should then be bound by the rules of the landowners conditions of use. i.e. park correctly.
What would you have done if the rules were incorrectly parked vehicles would be towed?
When I was at college the rules were...any vehicles incorrectly parked or not displaying a college parking permit will be towed immediately. These rules were in the college building and in the students handbook.

[hollydays]

Well done Timne-caused a first time poster to quit on the vent board (post now called" forget it").. and to think i accused you of being nasty...how right i was.
Edit-Timnne post now removed from here..

[frank potter]

For correct details of the legal position relating to private parking (as opposed to some of the speculative ones previously mentioned) I suggest browsing the following link:

http://www.logiclaw.co.uk/pages/PJ.html

and also the forum at:

http://www.pepipoo.com/

Hope that this helps.

[Altarf]

For correct details of the legal position relating to private parking (as opposed to some of the speculative ones previously mentioned) I suggest browsing the following link

Not exactly unbiased are they though.

[frank potter]

Not exactly unbiased are they though.

If you consider the above advice to be incorrect please kindly quote a County court case of this kind where a private parking company has been successful.

I have yet to hear of one.

[Altarf]

please kindly quote a County court case of this kind where a private parking company has been successful.

I have yet to hear of one.

Keep up, that's what I said several post ago. That doesn't make these two sites unbiased or right though.

[frank potter]

Keep up, that's what I said several post ago. That doesn't make these two sites unbiased or right though.

And it doesn't necessarily make them wrong either.

Also from your earlier post on an earlier thread may I assume that you agree with them?

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=3310076#post3310076

I would again encourage anyone interested in private parking matters to browse the dependable websites that I mentioned earlier and not to be discouraged from doing so. The websites I mentioned earlier being:

http://www.logiclaw.co.uk/pages/PJ.html

and also the forum at:

http://www.pepipoo.com/

[Altarf]

And it doesn't necessarily make them wrong either.

Also from your earlier post on an earlier thread may I assume that you agree with them?

Not really. As I posted above the reason why they won't take it to court is not that they won't win, but because it is not economically viable.

[Danno]

I was recently away in Oxford when my car was being used by a friend. This friend parked in Castle Marina Retail Park in Nottingham and left the site for a few minutes before returning to shop on the park.

A Private parking Ticket was issued, I have been contacted by Central Ticketing Ltd with a demand for £85.

I have written back and told them I was not the driver at the time and can produce corroberative evidence toe prove this.

They are still trying to say I am liable, however as far as I am aware their Contract is with the driver and not the registered keeper.

Does anyone have any comments?

[tomstickland]

Firstly, you are in the wrong regarding your parking. However, I do share your sentiments on this:
What perfect sin-free lives some people must lead, and what perfect worlds they must live in. It is clear that the answer is to move to the perfectly run Utopia they live in, away from the travails life in my city seems to throw up... Clearly in the places some people live the car parks are never full, and the parking machine accepts notes and card payments as well as small change. Although perhaps Elle and her friends have more small change in their pocket as I imagine instead of buying the occasional Big Issue or putting a few pence in someone less fortunates hand they probably lecture them for 5 minutes on how they have ruined their own lives and wasted all the free education given them by Mrs Thatcher, possibly giving them a small kick when they are down.
I've seen it happen a lot of times on here.

[tincanali48]

In response to some of the threads I have read I'm sure everyone would agree the way to treat these companies is to cost them as much as you possibly can,if you are in dispute write to them, send it recorded delivery ensuring you request a response within a specified time. That way they have to pay someone to sign for it and reply. Each reply costs around £15.00 Pay your fine by recorded delivery to the registered office address rather than the PO box number on the back of the fine as this is usually the bank used by the company. That way you have proof of receipt and they have to physically cash your cheque. Never pay by phone or electronically as they may sell your details (ie email address) this is also the cheapest method of collection for them. If you want to spend more money and be a real swine then cast your mind back to the 1980's and the dreaded poll tax. If your'e old enough you'll remember people painting cheques on 3X2 concrete slabs before delivering them to the bank to be cashed. At that time a court judge deemed the action as perfectly legal. A few of these sent to the registered office would soon eat into the profit margin and cause lots of disruption.