Oyster card users: always touch in and out or get fined!

[MSE Martin]

7 November 2006

What's this?

From 19 Nov, Transport for London will automatically charge the maximum cash fare for Oyster card pay as you go users who fail to touch in or out using the system's yellow card reader.

What does that mean?

When you touch in at a station, the maximum cash charge of £4 (£5 at selected National Rail stations) will be deducted from the balance of your Oyster card. This amount will then be adjusted by touching out at a station when your journey ends. If you fail to touch out, your oyster card will remain deducted of the maximum cash charge.

This charge also applies if you fail to touch in at the beginning of your journey; when you touch out, the maximum fare will then be deducted. You'll also be liable for a penalty fare or prosecution.

What about the daily price cap?

You'll also lose the benefit of cheaper Oyster fares for that journey as this charge won't count towards any cap you might reach that day. For example, a one day off-peak price cap is £4.90 for zones 1-4, but if you fail to touch out between two underground stations on two separate occasions, you'll pay over £12.


For more information see www.tfl.gov.uk (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2006/general.asp)

Martin


http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/images/threadbanner.gif (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips)

[wendy_ann1983]

From November 19th PayG customers must ensure that they not only touch in & out but that they have a minimum of £4 on their cards per journey.

PayG customers are currently charged the minimum fare of £1 when they enter a station, if you don't have £1 then you cannot enter.
This will become £4 so you must ensure you have £4 on your card before you travel (rip off I know) then when you touch your card out the computer corrects this to whatever it should be. For example the current fare for going 1Zone is £1, so touch in and it takes £4, touch out and it credits back the £3. Don't touch out and the card will keep the £4 charge.
It will also charge you £4 if you touch out but did not touch in.



The current amount it will charge you in one day is £13.10, the cost of a peak 1-6 travel card, but who knows what will happen in the future.

The charge will not go towards the daily cap either.

As far as I have been informed IT WILL NOT CHARGE CUSTOMERS WITH WEEKLY OR ABOVE. Just the PayG customers.

For a few weeks after this is introduced you will be able to go to the ticket office at any tube station and they can rectify the journey. They will not be able to do this for long though so you really should get in the habit of touching in and out now.

You may think this is unfair and so do alot of LU staff but you should also be aware that if you are caught by a member of revenue staff and you havent touched in you are liable to the £20 penalty fare or even court action.
The terms and conditions state that you MUST have a valid ticket for your journey, if you havent touched in your card is not valid


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not take this out on station staff, we did not ask for this and are not happy about it either but the decision came from above and we have to deal with it. We wil try and help as much as possible but when someone is shouting at us it isnt easy.

[isasmurf]

This is already in force according to notices I've seen at various tube and DLR stations. It says something like

"From 10th October if you fail to touch in or touch out you will be charged the full cash fare for your journey. 98% of customers use their Oyster correctly, are you the 2% that don't?"

[wendy_ann1983]

No, as far as staff have been told it is the 19th Nov

[wendy_ann1983]

I have checked at work today and 7 stations ran a trial that started on Oct 10th. It will go out to all stations on the 19th Nov

[justtoclarify]

So this on top of £3 deposit I had to pay. Now I have to have a total of £7 plus the fare for that trip tied up with an PAYG oyster card, just so I can use it without having to top it up every time.

Ken has a lot to answer for.

[wendy_ann1983]

Yep, its great, I know. Oh an the fares will go up AGAIN on Jan 1st, and now that most customers are on Oyster he can start to put those fares up as well, maybe not just yet but you can guarantee they will go up soon.
Its great, it makes staffs lives hell.

Any travel questions I will try an answer quickly an honestly.

[victory]

thank you read it all and will make sure I touch in and out !! xxx

[black-saturn]

Thanks, I'll remember that. I use the bus as often as I can in London.

[gromituk]

TFL is at least trying hard to make the dopiest Tube traveller aware, with lots of posters and announcements.

Of course, announcements would have more impact if they didn't saturate your ears with pointless "a good service is running" marketing messages (however rarely that happens :rolleyes:).

[BritSwedeGuy]

The problem is the stations that still don't have readers, the irony is that those without cards can often travel for free but card-holders could get stung.

[thepikie]

slightly off-topic. Are there any regulations that effect fines for not using an oyster card?

My girlfriend has just received a court summons for a £95 fine for her ONLY ever offence for not swiping the oyster card. On a busy double decker bus (253), she was bundled past the reader and didn't touch on. Corraled by the crowd, she went upstairs a few stops later, and left without swiping. It was her honest intention to swipe on, I believe her because she always swiped on, but wasn't able to in the crowd. On getting off the bus, her card was checked, and she apologised, and gave all her details, fully expecting a fine, but a bit aggrieved that there was no way she could have reached the machine on boarding.

A few months later, she got a letter, warning a court summons was possible. My girlfriend replied to the letter, explaining what happened, and asked them to check the oyster log to see that this had never happened before. Also, she asked for the card back, because it had a few pounds on it- which was lost, along with an extra £3 for a new one. This morning, a few more months on, a court summons has appeared.

By coincidence, on a trip to london before I moved a few years ago, i bought a book of tickets to use on the bus. On the bendy bus, I expected a conductor to come and collect the ticket, because the route had been a routemaster before. THey didn't. Instead, I ended up with a ten pound fine, some months later.

Is it legal to apply the law so differently to mine and my girlfriend's case? Is it cos I lived outside of London, so couldn't be a repeat dodger? My girlfriend's card was never returned?

I'm a student nurse. My girlfriend is a media runner. We live in a pokey @rse room, with four housemates we don't know, in an expensive city. We try to do things properly, and a stupid system like the Oyster card meant a rule was broken once, and this is now being taken out on us- as if we are scapegoats for a pre-pay system that doesn't work and is abused by thousands.

Does anyone have suggestions? Should we accept it? I imagine this happens quite often, and Transport for London is making scapegoats, rather than applying the law blindly. This lady ended up with a £300+ fine, I believe:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4361286.stm

p.s. sorry about the length. I could go on. And my name, thepikie, is not a reflection on my honesty, but a nickname earned through second-hand clothes and not spending.

[alanrowell]

My girlfriend has just received a court summons for a £95 fine for her ONLY ever offence for not swiping the oyster card.
No her offence was travelling without a valid "ticket"

[wendy_ann1983]

if you take the tube you touch in & out for that journey, it works out what you need to pay, then you take the bus and it takes the set fare for the time of day travelled. As long as you touch in & out it will work out the cheapest fare for you.

[UKHCGirl]

any news on whether things like southwest trains are going to let us start using payG cards for shorter journeys (eg wimbledon to waterloo)?

Its a pain in the !!!!. I dont want to get overcharged because i have to buy a return to waterloo and it takes me a full 25mins more to use the district line. that and the lines arent always working anyway

[isasmurf]

Oyster is being rolled out to National Rail within London over the next couple of years.

[jobbingmusician]

Back on subject - what happens if the bloody machines don't work properly, and how are you supposed to know? ATM they give you a very brief glance at how much money they have deducted - if you're lucky. I'm a very fast reader, but I can never check that my daily fare has been 'capped' at the correct level :(

[needaspirin]

WOW Big Brother at it's infancy. Roll on ID cards :eek:

[bllipp]

:confused:

I've been thinking about this for a long time. I feel like everyone's been gradually forced onto Oyster, with rising cash fares and penalties for those don't.

They have complete control over their prices and can see wherever and whenever anyone goes anywhere.

George Orwell would be spinning in his grave.

[Deluks]

:confused:

I've been thinking about this for a long time. I feel like everyone's been gradually forced onto Oyster, with rising cash fares and penalties for those don't.

They have complete control over their prices and can see wherever and whenever anyone goes anywhere.

George Orwell would be spinning in his grave.

I didn't have to register when I got my card, the shop keeper recommended that I fill in the form but you don't actually have to. They know where I've been but don't know who I am :cool:

A friend gave a false name and address when he registered. Once he jumped on the tram as the doors were shutting and didn't have time to touch in. When the inspector came and told him he's have to pay a fine my friend thought he'd got away with it due to the false details, but they actually put the fine on your card after a few weeks so he was about -£20 in credit, so had to pay the amount to get the card usable again. (he just got another card though!)

[Old Gold]

So if something goes wrong with the machinery as often happens it means we have to pay for TFP's mistakes? Ken Linvingstone may have got away with calling a reporter a Nazi guard but this system shows exactly the kind of bullying that would have done the Nazi's proud. More and more ordinary people are being criminalised under this kind of mentality. How long are we going to stand for this.
Please write to your MPs to complain.

[dougkillen]

The corollary of this is that until 19 November, if you touch in and don't touch out, you only get charged the minimum fare for the journey!

[dougkillen]

The corollary of this is that until 19 November, if you touch in and don't touch out, you may get undercharged for the journey! :whistle:

[LaraHoust]

I think it's pretty harsh to have to have £4 on your card at all times, I mean you don't oftenly know what you have on your card because there's not really anywhere to check it.

Also although TFL have put up loads of posters about being charged, they haven't mentioned anything about the £4 thing.... I feel sorry for the staff because loads of people are going to try to touch in and even though they have enough money for that journey won't be able to travel, which is going to make people rather cross....

[gromituk]

Ken Linvingstone may have got away with calling a reporter a Nazi guard but this system shows exactly the kind of bullying that would have done the Nazi's (sic) proud.Oh don't be silly and regain your sense of proportion. Whatever the circumstances, people are only being prosecuted or fined because they are fare dodgers.

And yes, Oyster cards do track all your movements on London Transport, but credit cards, debit cards and loyalty cards track all your spending. It's a fact of life. They're not just pushing Oysters to spy on you - think of the money saved by the reduced use of paper tickets, ticket machines, barrier traversal times, etc. And my Oyster card is topped up automatically from my credit card (a facility for which they paid me £10) so I never have to worry about money for fares at all.

[jordylass]

I go to London as often as I can recently 2-3 times a year. I bought an Oyster card, top it up when I'm there and use it. I've never been anywhere else (in the UK) where the public transport system could rival London's. You have it easy with Oyster cards, you should see what most people in other city's get charged, (for much worse public transport).

The Pikie, I find it hard to sympathise, because your girlfriend hadn't been caught before didn't mean it hadn't happened before, and what if she hadn't had an Oyster card, would she have thought it was OK to get shuffled past the driver without paying?

[HeaddyMX]

Ken Linvingstone may have got away with calling a reporter a Nazi guard but this system shows exactly the kind of bullying that would have done the Nazi's proud. More and more ordinary people are being criminalised under this kind of mentality. How long are we going to stand for this.
Please write to your MPs to complain.

Forget proportion! Anyone who agrees with these ridiculous fare hikes and big brother mentality obviously voted for Livingstone in the last mayoral election. And that's what we have to do the opposite of next time - vote "not Livingstone"!

(ahem) I don't use my homing beacon - erm - Oyster card at present, because I work outside of London and get a National Rail ticket.

[gromituk]

I refer you to the honourable lady's post just preceding yours...

[Old Gold]

Oh don't be silly and regain your sense of proportion. Whatever the circumstances, people are only being prosecuted or fined because they are fare dodgers.

And yes, Oyster cards do track all your movements on London Transport, but credit cards, debit cards and loyalty cards track all your spending. It's a fact of life. They're not just pushing Oysters to spy on you - think of the money saved by the reduced use of paper tickets, ticket machines, barrier traversal times, etc. And my Oyster card is topped up automatically from my credit card (a facility for which they paid me £10) so I never have to worry about money for fares at all.
Yes I think we can see where you are coming from. Start off by insulting me but cannot justify what you say and raise something that I made no mention of in your second paragraph.
Where is the proportionality in a lady being hounded and possibly fined £1000 because the machinery did not work on the bus. Or maybe you think everyone is a liar and a cheat. I am not usually vindictive but I hope it happens to you and then see how you feel.

[Old Gold]

I go to London as often as I can recently 2-3 times a year. I bought an Oyster card, top it up when I'm there and use it. I've never been anywhere else (in the UK) where the public transport system could rival London's. You have it easy with Oyster cards, you should see what most people in other city's get charged, (for much worse public transport).

The Pikie, I find it hard to sympathise, because your girlfriend hadn't been caught before didn't mean it hadn't happened before, and what if she hadn't had an Oyster card, would she have thought it was OK to get shuffled past the driver without paying?
What an incredible insult to someone you dont know. Are you really telling us all that you think this girl was lying. That she did not get pushed and shoved past the ticket point. You really do not live in London and travel in London if this experience does not happen for you.

[jordylass]

I already said I don't live in London, but I used to and I use public transport when I'm there. I did not say that she was lying, but her boyfriend said she gopt caught for not scanning her card, that comes with penaltys which have properly been put into place.
Of course, I like probably everyone else who gets on a bus in London, have had to scramble to get to the scanner or driver, but I have made sure I did it!

[Old Gold]

Then if you were at that time capable of looking after yourself well done but many people are not for whatever reason. There are many people who cheat the system but this oyster scheme does not catch them as much as innocent travellers.

[MrSmartprice]

Why are public transport costs in this country so outrageous? No wonder they have so many people dodging fares and trying to beat the system. I am actively discouraged from visiting London, and using public transport generally, as it is so expensive.

Go to other European cities and you find clean, modern metro systems in relatively small cities, where people all use them and therefore don't clog up the roads. There is little fare dodging since it is so cheap to use. Examples I have used recently are Barcelona, Valencia, Lille, Lisbon and Porto.

I have just returned from Porto, where in a city of 250,000 people there is an ultra-modern 5 line metro which includes the airport link. They use the smart card system where you just hold the card near the reader at the start of each journey. A day ticket is 3 euros for the central zones, a bit more to include the airport zone. A monthly pass is about 23 euros. This includes buses, metros and even the funicular and the sightseeing trams.

When will this country ever get the message on public transport?

[SammyD]

Back on subject - what happens if the bloody machines don't work properly, and how are you supposed to know? ATM they give you a very brief glance at how much money they have deducted - if you're lucky. I'm a very fast reader, but I can never check that my daily fare has been 'capped' at the correct level :(


My oyster currently has an "uncompleted journey" on it, which I think means that I swiped in but not out. I am absolutely certain this has not happened. My best guess is that I had my oyster in my hand when I went through a barrier on one of the days that the Tube was accepting my train pass (ie when First Capital was once again not running), and it picked it up.

Every time I try to sort it out with the underground staff, I have had no luck - in the City, they say sort it out at the other end, then they say no staff available when I get there. Better sort it before the 19th I guess.

Also, I find it incredibly frustrating that you can't use the PAYG oysters twice on the same journey - ie, my husband and I can't go on the bus with one oyster between us.

[jinkssick]

I buy a weekly travelcard, but are people sure this wont affect me.

And how does this work when you are solely using the British Rail to travel to your destination. Not all have a oyster reader. remote stations such as Barnes. or Catford Bridge.

[UltraCheap]

My OH and I have had Oyster Cards now for about 2 years. Beware that after awhile they become FAULTY which is a real problem when you are getting on to a bus (which is 30 minutes late - and you are therefore once again late to get to your destination due to the London Bus system) and the reader is unable to read the card. I have been thrown off the bus twice now due to the card no longer working, and have received really nasty customer service from the driver that wouldn't even allow me to pay for the trip with cash. My OH and I have both replaced our cards now once, and it looks like I will have to replace my again as this week I had another problem with my card. It seems that the microchip - or whatever - inside the card eventually becomes damaged? I keep my card in my wallet, so it does not get bent or anything.

On Tuesday, I swiped my card through and it came up faulty, the driver got really upset with me and started to make a scene, so I swiped again, and it still came up faulty, so I pulled the card out of the holder and this time the card worked. I then told the driver that I thought they had been rude. The driver proceeded to shout swear words at me, "f***ing b**tch cow" to be precise. I jotted down the license plate of the bus and I am going to write a letter to London busses to find out if this is a special aspects of their driver training and customer service! Bet I don't get a reply.

I am really unhappy with this system. It isn't my fault that these cards stop working after a few years, and yet I have been treated really badly by the drivers. It's like some sort of weird power trip, where they have the power to throw you off the bus - even though you have followed the rules and pre-paid your fare.

Also, if the card becomes faulty, the system can no longer retrieve details from the card including the remaining balance!

[Old Gold]

And yet TFL seem to claim the system works. Oh for some kind of passenger representation.

[gromituk]

Yes I think we can see where you are coming from. Start off by insulting meIf you think being called silly is an insult, then you ought to get off the internet, for your own sanity. Saying London Transport acts like Nazis is disproportionate and silly.

[tottiefish]

firstly, yes they are trying to get us to use oyster cards: but only because processing cash costs more, takes more time etc: and people don't seem to mind paying by 'topup' for mobile phones etc; and there is always the option of buying a carnet of tube tickets, or those bus 6ers (and these can be shared).

but what will happen if you don't know that you have less than £4 on you oystercard? only some tube barriers show the balance on your card when you check them in or out

[ringo_24601]

I put my oyster card inside a nice leather holder (2.50 from M&S), it never leaves it. I've had the card for over a year and it looks as fresh as the day I got it from the shop.

I can see no reason why the RFID chip in the card would fail though.

My big gripe is my local station leaves it's gates open in the morning.. this is almost an enticement to forget to swipe though.

Once London Transport starts restricting the rights of specific groups and systematically sends them to their death, then you can call them Nazi's. Charging you 4 quid for being stupid enough to not swiping a piece of plastic past a tube/bus entrance is not fascism.

[gromituk]

Yes, it seems the barriers at the more central stations don't have balance displays - perhaps to reduce congestion. But you can use any of the large ticket machines to check your balance. (And get it topped up automatically from a credit card.)

[gromituk]

Don't get me on to my complaint to TfL when I touched in at three seconds past 7pm and it charged me peak fare... ;)

[TheBlonde]

Is there any option for appeal against the maximum fare?

I always swipe in and out and yet I still end up with the odd incomplete journey on my card - can the gates be trusted to always read the card correctly??

I don't want to have to check it for every journey I make

[Old Gold]

If you think being called silly is an insult, then you ought to get off the internet, for your own sanity. Saying London Transport acts like Nazis is disproportionate and silly.
Try your little games if you like. Yes it was an insult and no I dont need to get off the internet. My sanity might be challenged by unfeeling people like yourself but I dont run away. Are you employed by TFL or just a Livingstone groupie?
If you support intimidating people as this systme is doing it does show who you are. If you think its okay to punish people because your own equipment or system is faulty then you align yourself with the Livingstones of the world.
If you cant feel for people who are faced with heavy fines or criminal records because of a mistake usually created by London Transport then I feel sorry for you. I just hope that more people will actually start to stand up and challenge these unfairnesses that will grow unless we act now.

[isasmurf]

I buy a weekly travelcard, but are people sure this wont affect me.

And how does this work when you are solely using the British Rail to travel to your destination. Not all have a oyster reader. remote stations such as Barnes. or Catford Bridge.
If you have a travelcard and travel in the zones covered by your travelcard then there will no effect. You have a valid ticket. If you forget to (or can't) touch in or touch out, it assumes your journey was within the zones covered on your card.

The issue comes when you travel to or from a zone not covered by your travelcard. You must then touch in and touch out for the system to know how much to charge you. When you touch in, £1 (or £1.50 from Z1) will be automatically deducted from your card.

You must remember when switching modes of transport (e.g. NR to tube or tube to DLR) you must touch your card on the readers on the platforms.

I should credit the uk.transport.london newsgroup for this info.

TFL have a FAQ (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/oyster/general-entry-exit.asp) on the new system

[Old Gold]

Once London Transport starts restricting the rights of specific groups and systematically sends them to their death, then you can call them Nazi's. Charging you 4 quid for being stupid enough to not swiping a piece of plastic past a tube/bus entrance is not fascism.
No Ringo it isn't but being fined £1000 or having a criminal record might just be moving that way. And I think if you read what others are saying you will see it is not a matter of not swiping the card but the equipment not working.

[MKB]

I live outside London and only found out about the Oyster card through a message board similar to this one. Thanks to that, I've been able to avoid the rip-off £3 tube charges on my occasional visits to the capital, but I really feel for other visitors who are unaware that they could be paying less.

The first time I used my Oyster card on a bus, I had no idea what the touch pad looked like, where it was or how to tell if it had read my card. The bus driver didn't want to help. I worked out what the pad was and touched it with my card. Later, I discovered I wasn't charged for that journey, so I can see how innocent people could get caught out by jobsworth ticket inspectors.

One question I still don't know the answer to: are you supposed to touch out on a bus, or is that just on train journeys? I didn't see anyone doing this on a bus so assumed not.

[peter999]

Funny how this wonderful piece of technology, has turned into an Orwellian controlling nightmare, with automatic penalties being imposed.

[jinkssick]

the only way to make sure you are allowed on the service is to keep the receipt white one, that you get when you purchase. this shows that your ticket is valid.

I am not the happiest person as this service actually means you are being targeted. I take a route that not only constitutes as going in and out but I never get charged even though i go out of my zones.

[Old Gold]

I live outside London and only found out about the Oyster card through a message board similar to this one. Thanks to that, I've been able to avoid the rip-off £3 tube charges on my occasional visits to the capital, but I really feel for other visitors who are unaware that they could be paying less.

The first time I used my Oyster card on a bus, I had no idea what the touch pad looked like, where it was or how to tell if it had read my card. The bus driver didn't want to help. I worked out what the pad was and touched it with my card. Later, I discovered I wasn't charged for that journey, so I can see how innocent people could get caught out by jobsworth ticket inspectors.

One question I still don't know the answer to: are you supposed to touch out on a bus, or is that just on train journeys? I didn't see anyone doing this on a bus so assumed not.
I appreciated your post which is probably more than TFL would do themselves. The whole point of what is being raised here is that it is unfair and unreasonable the restrictions that our transport system are imposing. In many cases you cannot even use the service unless you have the correct ticket and I believe sometimes money is not allowed. A sad day from when I was young and you would not be refused your journey because you did not have the fare - you could give your name and address.
The oyster system is being sold with beautiful spin that it is cheaper but the fares are high enough as it is and anyone out of the system is being penalised even more.
In answer to your question as far as I know you only touch in on the buses. I have never seen anyone touch out but you never know......big brother is watching.
Ps be careful as they dont actually wear Nazi uniforms.;)

[wendy_ann1983]

Some people may not wish to register their Oyster cards so that they cannot be "followed" but think of this, if you loose your card you cannot do anything about it, its lost, and so is any moey left on it. On a more sombre note (correct me if I am wrong) but I believe Oyster details were used to find out if people had entered the system on July 7th.

Some people are in such a rush to get out of the gates (ok nobody likes hanging around stations too long) that they all pile into the gates and if the first person has a problem getting out, the person behind taps them out, the person behind them taps them out and so on until the last person cant get themselves out, TIP slow down, make sure you tap yourself out, if you tap your card and it doesnt work, step out of the gate and ask for help, staff may ask you to tap your card again so we can see what is wrong with it, this will not take more money off your card.
On the yellow readers there are three lights, when you go up to the gates you want to see the amber light, when you tap and your card has read the light will go green, if there is a problem the light will go red, if the light is already red, dont try and tap your card it wont be read. This is VERY important if the station you are using has its gates open, you must still tap in.

You do not need to touch out on buses as it is a flat fare no matter how far you travel (they only change with the time of day).

Just because people work for LU does not mean we agree with what people are charged, we all need a job. It only puts backs up when people shout at staff for something they have no control over, we do our job. They send people out to check that the job is being done properly and this includes sending people to buy another ticket if they have lost the original. If we were all 'jobsworths' and went buy the strict rules a lot of people would not travel and would be fined regularly.

As for the system being out dated, well it is the oldest system, there isnt much room for expansion, the system was never intended for carrying soo many people. They are trying to make it better but this is a slow and tedious project. They are trying to get as much done as possible by 2012.

Sorry this is a bit long.

[gromituk]

There are many people who cheat the system but this oyster scheme does not catch them as much as innocent travellers.Really? Where's your evidence for that please?

[Old Gold]

Really? Where's your evidence for that please?
You really do give yourself away dont you. Yes you do work for TFL and you are company orientated as shown above. Open youreyes and ears and you will see and hear people talking about it. Do you really believe it doesn't go on or have your masters really brainwashed you that much.
"Have I got evidence" - what a laughable question.

[starray]

"Is there any option for appeal against the maximum fare?

I always swipe in and out and yet I still end up with the odd incomplete journey on my card - can the gates be trusted to always read the card correctly??

I don't want to have to check it for every journey I make" (don't know how to use the quote function)

Totally agree with that post - it's hard enough to work out if the correct "capping" has been done. I ALWAYS take extreme care to tap in and out correctly and even when we have to change midway through the journey. - and yet, still end up with the incomplete fare message. Suspect it's to do with faulty machines!

The machines often don't work or no red light or green light is shown and no message is shown (And this happens not so much at the entrances or exits of stations, but when you have to interchange midway on one journey.)

So - if machines are faulty(and how can we prove this) will customers still be penalized?

[peter999]

Some people may not wish to register their Oyster cards so that they cannot be "followed" but think of this, if you loose your card you cannot do anything about it, its lost, and so is any moey left on it. On a more sombre note (correct me if I am wrong) but I believe Oyster details were used to find out if people had entered the system on July 7th.
How often have you lost your cards ??
How much money would you lose ??
-probably a few pounds if you use Oyster for occasional journey.

Oyster is just being used to create a web of surveillance.
Don't have Oyster card yet & prefer to remain anonymous.

I'm often in London, rarely/never use public transport, never go into Congestion Charge zone due to charge.
Small businesses are shutting down in central London due to TFL policies.

I'm amazed there are so many problems with Oyster card system touching in/out.
.

[starray]

Sorry, that should read I end up with the "incomplete journey" message.

[Sam Bee]

The Oyster Card is a blessing for sane, non-paranoid members of London's Society.

1) I pay less on my bus now than I did 12 years ago.
2) The bus is quicker because payment is quicker, less time at every bus stop, and far more, effectively managed bus lanes. And many more buses. (Thanks Ken!)
3) Tube stations - so much quicker than they used to be to get in and out.
4) Shorter queues at ticket machines as most people already have tickets via pre-pay Oyster Cards.

I presume everyone still queuing for paper tickets must be the hyper-sensitive, paranoid, sub-culture that believes that Red Ken is either reforming the British Nazi Party or tracking our every move before feeding us to giant Communist blood-sucking Russian Leeches.

[peter999]

The Oyster Card is a blessing for sane, non-paranoid members of London's Society.

I presume everyone still queuing for paper tickets must be the hyper-sensitive, paranoid, sub-culture that believes that Red Ken is either reforming the British Nazi Party or tracking our every move before feeding us to giant Communist blood-sucking Russian Leeches.
You can be the first to be microchipped, tracked by satellite, CCTV & realtime networked databases.

What's the problem with that, you've "got nothing to hide".

2020: then what ??
2050: then what ??
2100: then what ??
2500: then what ??

[Sam Bee]

2020: then what ?? - Still cheaper and quicker buses? Wahooo!
2050: then what ?? - I'll be living abroad.
2100: then what ?? - I'll be dead, so don't care!
2500: then what ?? - See above.

But it's not a personal liberty point I'm making. But i'm certainly not going to obsess about modern technology in todays world, it's a personal battle you'll never win.

[gromituk]

Yes you do work for TFL and you are company orientated as shown above.Eh? I don't work (and never have worked, and don't foresee myself ever working) for TfL. Where did you get that idea from? I even mentioned a complaint I made to them! Concluding that someone who doesn't have quite as negative an opinion of an organisation as you do must work for it was so self-evidently silly that I didn't think it was even worth rebutting. Oh, and it had the amusing side-effect of giving you the opportunity to dig an even bigger hole for yourself.:rotfl:

So, back to the question. You stated:
There are many people who cheat the system but this oyster scheme does not catch them as much as innocent travellers.Where is your evidence for this? You can

1) provide it;
2) withdraw the statement; or
3) continue bluffing.

If you choose the third option, it won't take a genius to work out that you pulled the statement out of a hole in your hat.

[gromituk]

Oyster is just being used to create a web of surveillance.
Don't have Oyster card yet & prefer to remain anonymous.You seem to be mixing up two things here.

Firstly, not having an oyster card at all means you are paying dearly for it buy buying paper tickets instead. And to preserve your anonymity, you must not use any form of card to buy a Tube ticket.

Secondly, an unregistered card doesn't prevent your mug being linked with it every time you use a ticket barrier, via the omnipresent CCTV. And the same point applies about only ever using cash to top it up.

[Old Gold]

So, back to the question. You stated:
Where is your evidence for this? You can

1) provide it;
2) withdraw the statement; or
3) continue bluffing.

If you choose the third option, it won't take a genius to work out that you pulled the statement out of a hole in your hat.
You need evidence do you? What kind of evidence? Do you want me to go filming people that I see cheating the system or video the countless programmes I hear? what kind of person are you? You have already suggested that you dont believe anyone who is caught could be a victim of the system you support. Sorry pal but you believe what you want but dont expect us to tell you the truth. Up to you but I dont withdraw something you could probably check on by even asking the police especially the transport police.

[gromituk]

That'll be option 3 then? :D

[Old Gold]

That'll be option 3 then? :D
If it pleases you to bury your head in the hole you claim I am digging for myself then be my guest.
My concern is for the growing number of passengers who will fall victims to an unfair system. The difference between us is I care and you seem not to.

[zappomatic]

Instead of whinging and wailing, why don't some of you read the FAQ on the TfL website http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/oyster/general-entry-exit.asp ? For example, you don't need £4 on your card at all times:

Do I need to have at least £5 on my Oyster card to start a Tube/DLR journey using pay as you go?

No. The amount you must have on your Oyster card before you can start a pay as you go journey at a station depends on the zone you start your journey in and how close you are to reaching a daily price cap.

Oyster cards are able to have a negative balance. As long as you touch out when you use the tube (and to be honest you'd have to be a bit thick not to) it will make no difference.

And the barriers in central London stations do have balance displays on them but only on the exit side - this is the only side you need it so you can see how much you have left and if you need to top up when you get out.

[wendy_ann1983]

How often have you lost your cards ??
How much money would you lose ??
-probably a few pounds if you use Oyster for occasional journey.

Oyster is just being used to create a web of surveillance.
Don't have Oyster card yet & prefer to remain anonymous.

I'm often in London, rarely/never use public transport, never go into Congestion Charge zone due to charge.
Small businesses are shutting down in central London due to TFL policies.

I'm amazed there are so many problems with Oyster card system touching in/out.
.

I work for the underground and if I loose my staff pass I have to pay for it, so I don't loose it.
If you want anything over a weekly travelcard you have to register it. I read that some put down false addresses, fine if you send off the form but if you try and do it in station staff will know within minutes (we use the electoral roll, another way of tracking?? better not put your name on that either). So what happens when those who put down false details and buy a weekly or top up with up to the £90 that it can hold then loose that card? They come in and moan at staff.

I will say again I dont agree with the fact that people are being forced onto Oyster but in a society when you are caught on CCTV in every shop you go into, when you have complete strangers film you on their mobiles, tourists take pictures of you as you walk down the street, banks checking on when you shop and where so they can offer you deals (?) and people in other countries hacking into your computer, I don't think a small bit of plastic that is cutting down on queing times and reducing the amount of wasted paper is that bad.

Yes people do cheat the system, everyday I see people jump through the barriers and yes unfortunatly it is the 'legal' cutomers that pay for this but until revenue inspectors get the police backing they need they are quite rightly not going to tackle these people (some are know to be violent).

[wendy_ann1983]

Instead of whinging and wailing, why don't some of you read the FAQ on the TfL website http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/oyster/general-entry-exit.asp ? For example, you don't need £4 on your card at all times:



I will have to look into this further but I believe you will have to have a minimum balance of £4 for every journey. I'm pretty sure it will not allow you to tap in with less than £4 on your card. I'm not in work till monday, will try and find a definate answer for you.

[peter999]

If you want anything over a weekly travelcard you have to register it. I read that some put down false addresses, fine if you send off the form but if you try and do it in station staff will know within minutes (we use the electoral roll, another way of tracking?? better not put your name on that either). ).
How can you possibly use the Electoral Roll to check anything in a city with a massive population of foreigners/migrants/transient people.

There are more foreigners in London than native British people.

Is this some sort of joke ??

This is exactly the sort of problem that can happen with all this misuse of data
-some minion employee (yourself/TFL) chooses some database (Electoral Roll) to verify someone's identity, which is COMPLETELY unreliable !!

The Electoral Roll is for Elections, not a way of verifying identity.
(and yes, the Electoral Roll is being misused by TFL & others).

peter999

[Old Gold]

Be careful Peter you may have a certain someone asking you for proof of what you have said.;)
However I wonder what the percentage of those 'unknowns' cheat the system as opposed to us 'tagged' ones?

[wendy_ann1983]

So I guess you ticked the box that said they weren't allowed to use your details when they sell the list every year to varying companys, it is not used to varify identity just address and if your not registered we can still do the card it just takes longer, my point was trying to put down a fake address that doesnt exist.

And I don't know about native British as I myself am English. You sound like you have a real bee in your bonnet over this, (even though you say you do not use public transport) I would suggest you sit back, take a deep breath and relax, there are far worse things out there than the Oyster card. What about those pesky store points cards keeping track of everything you purchase?

At the end of the day you are not the one who will have to try and do your job whilst being verbally abused and possibly physically assaulted by irate customers over something staff were not consulted about or asked if we wanted.

I believe this thread was started so people could ask genuine questions about how the system works not vent their personal grievances about how it works, why not start a seperate thread for that

[Old Gold]

Wendy I am not going to condone the actions of any passenger abusing staff but I find it just as offensive when people in senior positions hide away from irate passengers. They are just cowards and it inflames the situation and therefore many staff take the abuse meant for them.

[thepikie]

The Pikie, I find it hard to sympathise, because your girlfriend hadn't been caught before didn't mean it hadn't happened before, and what if she hadn't had an Oyster card, would she have thought it was OK to get shuffled past the driver without paying?

Jordylass, as someone else pointed out, that is a very rude thing to say. I'd just like to make a few points. She had never missed touching in before. NOT 'hadn't been caught before'. If she hadn't had an Oyster card, this would not have been a problem. She would have paid for a ticket- like she had done. Someone else said that she hadn't bought a ticket. SHE HAD, that's the daft thing. The Oyster Card had £10 worth of ticket and had been used every day but one. And she didn't shuffle past anyone, she was herded past. And I wasn't asking for sympathy, I was asking for advice. I didn't appreciate logging on to read an uninvited and ill-informed judgement , when all I was wondering was if other people have experienced similar.

The assumption you made, is exactly the one that Transport for London have made. The Oyster card is abused all the time- particularly on the rubbish bendy buses -and for that reason, they're handing out exorbitant £95 fines as a deterrant. But not everyone is deserving of this fine, or done much wrong. We're paying for their inefficiency- did you know that they were drafting in police on overtime from Hertfordshire to catch dodgers? And this for a bus designed to save money spent on conductors.

Incidentally- my girlfriend's written a letter to tfl, requesting to pay the normal £20 fine, apologising, and explaining the situation. We've also asked them to look at the Oyster card, and see that it was used every weekday on the 253 for as long as my girlfriend had it. I'll let you know what they say.

Also, my regular buses seem to terminate early, more often. I think they've done a cost-analysis on the oyster card, and seen that ferrying people to the extremities of hackney is a waste of money. And that making people get 2 buses, instead of what used to be 1, makes people get travelcards instead of using top-up.

[peter999]

So I guess you ticked the box that said they weren't allowed to use your details when they sell the list every year to varying companys, it is not used to varify identity just address and if your not registered we can still do the card it just takes longer, my point was trying to put down a fake address that doesnt exist.

And I don't know about native British as I myself am English. You sound like you have a real bee in your bonnet over this, (even though you say you do not use public transport) I would suggest you sit back, take a deep breath and relax, there are far worse things out there than the Oyster card. What about those pesky store points cards keeping track of everything you purchase?

All sensible British people I know, now tick that box on the Electoral Roll form
so their data is not sold for junk mailing, misuse & abuse.

Before this change the government conveniently decided any old tom/dick & harry
could use your data for anything they liked
-even though the data was only given for Electoral Roll registration & public are legally obliged to give it.

I know it's not the employees fault.

peter999

[gromituk]

All sensible British people I know, now tick that box on the Electoral Roll form
so their data is not sold for junk mailing, misuse & abuse.Unfortunately, this box was only added a few years ago, and, unbelievably, doesn't apply retrospectively. So, if you haven't moved house in the past few years, you still appear on all the websites, and the only way to remove yourself is to write to them all individually.

[peter999]

Be careful Peter you may have a certain someone asking you for proof of what you have said.
What are you referring to:
-that London is a melting pot of migrants ??
-that the Electoral Roll is unreliable in verifying identity of people in a place like London, many people: not entitled to register/ change addresses/ just passing through ??

peter999

[wendy_ann1983]

Wendy I am not going to condone the actions of any passenger abusing staff but I find it just as offensive when people in senior positions hide away from irate passengers. They are just cowards and it inflames the situation and therefore many staff take the abuse meant for them.

Your not alone on that thought, all staff have asked for senior management to come out and see what we put up with on a daily basis, but they are far to busy making dodgy decisions that make working life even worse.:mad:

Latest good idea is to close ticket offices early (in some cases 2 in the afternoon) and hope staff can help people through the barriers, give directions, help people use the ticket machines, on top of being shouted at by the customers that you have taken longer than 3 seconds to get to. And we have to keep smiling through it all.

[siennalizard]

Dear all,
I've written an open letter to Oyster on this subject. Please e-mail them and back me up if you agree.

http://jdv.hopto.org/index.php?/archives/72-Open-Letter-to-Oyster-have-card,-will-travel.html

Cheers!
J.

[M Thomson]

Dear all,
I've written an open letter to Oyster on this subject. Please e-mail them and back me up if you agree.

http://jdv.hopto.org/index.php?/archives/72-Open-Letter-to-Oyster-have-card,-will-travel.html

Cheers!
J.

Your letter is wrong on one point. You do not have to have a minimum balance of £4 on your card at all times under the new November 19 regime. Oyster cards can have negative balances, so you will be charged £4 if you do not touch out.

[siennalizard]

Your letter is wrong on one point. You do not have to have a minimum balance of £4 on your card at all times under the new November 19 regime. Oyster cards can have negative balances, so you will be charged £4 if you do not touch out.

Thank you, M. I have never had a negative balance on my card, though, so this must apply only to fines and the new charging regime. Surely if that is the approach they are taking, people will use, then dispose of cards with a negative balance? Maybe the system requires at least one payment by CC.

J.

[M Thomson]

Thank you, M. I have never had a negative balance on my card, though, so this must apply only to fines and the new charging regime. Surely if that is the approach they are taking, people will use, then dispose of cards with a negative balance? Maybe the system requires at least one payment by CC.

J.

I guess the way it will work is that if you only have £1.50 for a central London Single tube journey, it will make you -£2.50 until you touch out. I doubt there will be much incentive to dispose of an oystercard to avoid the £4 if you have to pay a £3 deposit each time you get a new Pre Pay card.

[wendy_ann1983]

As far as staff are aware it will not let you in unless you have a min £4 on your card. I am trying to find someone who can answer this for definate, but even from the inside its not easy.

[isasmurf]

From the outside, it's very easy. All I have to do is look at the FAQ (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/oyster/general-entry-exit.asp#balance) on the TFL website? ;)

Do I need to have at least £5 on my Oyster card to start a Tube/DLR journey using pay as you go?

No. The amount you must have on your Oyster card before you can start a pay as you go journey at a station depends on the zone you start your journey in and how close you are to reaching a daily price cap.

which I read as you need at least enough to cover the maximum Oyster fare or to reach the cap from the zone you are starting in.

[Saffie]

From November 19th PayG customers must ensure that they not only touch in & out but that they have a minimum of £4 on their cards per journey.

PayG customers are currently charged the minimum fare of £1 when they enter a station, if you don't have £1 then you cannot enter.
This will become £4 so you must ensure you have £4 on your card before you travel (rip off I know) then when you touch your card out the computer corrects this to whatever it should be. For example the current fare for going 1Zone is £1, so touch in and it takes £4, touch out and it credits back the £3. Don't touch out and the card will keep the £4 charge.
It will also charge you £4 if you touch out but did not touch in.

The minimum entry fee of £1.50 within zone 1 and £1 within any other zone will not change, you do not need to have a minimum of £4 on your card when you start your journey.

[wendy_ann1983]

My apologies, we had really confusing training on it, its the same as it currently is, you must have the minimum fare for the zone you are entering. £1 for entering zones 2-6, £1.50 for entering zone 1, the Oyster then works out how mush to take off when you touch out, dependant on where you travel.

If you have £10 on your card and touch in in zone 2 it will take £1 off to come in, forget to tap out and it will charge £4 to your card. This will leave you with £6 on your card. Again you tap in at zone 2 and it takes off the starting £1, somehow you forget again to tap out, it will take another £4 off your card so your balance is now £2. Your having a bad day and not only have you not noticed that your pre pay seems to be disapearing but you've made another journey and forgotten to tap out again your balance is now -£2. DOH.
You can be charged up to 3 times.
These charges will not count towards your daily cap.

If you exit a station and think Uh-Oh I don't think it read my card, you can check by going to the touch screen machines, tap your Oyster on the pad and then touch 'View Oyster Usage' this brings up the last few journeys and will show if your last journey completed. If it hasn't you may be able to do it by asking the staff if they can tap it on an exit pad (or if the gates are open you can do it yourself).

[Tiggerwoos]

Well the Oyster capping starts today and as I'm on nights and work for the Blunderground and just now on the last trains have already seen a load of people not bother touching their card on the reader as they barged through the manual gate.

Will be plenty of unhappy customers in the morning shouting at us!

[wendy_ann1983]

tiggerwoos, i know the feeling, im just on my way in for a late shift, oh what fun thats going to be.

[wendy_ann1983]

Well after the first day of the £4 charge I am still alive. However I really do need to find a new job, I have a soul and a conscience.
A poor woman came through, she had £3.80 on her card, tapped in at a station, got to her destination and it wouldn't let her out, so we checked her card and it had taken the £4 off. Leaving her -£0.20. We couldn't work out why it had done it. So for a £1 journey she ended up paying £4, just because the card decided it didn't want to play. Another guy mad 1 journey, tapped in at A- charged £4, got to station B- got charged £4 so for the 1 journey thats £8, should have only been £1, could see no reason for the card to have done it.
So beware, to be honest if youre using pre pay to get the daily cap, you may as well spend the extra 50p and buy a paper ticket, less hassle in the long run.

[puritycontroller]

Can anyone help?

I'm going to London next Monday (27th), staying for 5 days and travelling within zones 1 & 2 using the tube and buses.
Bearing in mind that I will also be there in January for another five days, what's the cheapest thing to do with regards to an oyster card?
Would pay as you go be cheaper than a travelcard?
Can I just put £25 on a PAYG oyster - would that last 5 days ? I've been reading all the comments here about oyster and all my initial enthusiasm about the card had decreased!
Any suggestions? I would appreciate your comments!

[Starfish]

Can anyone help?

I'm going to London next Monday (27th), staying for 5 days and travelling within zones 1 & 2 using the tube and buses.
Bearing in mind that I will also be there in January for another five days, what's the cheapest thing to do with regards to an oyster card?
Would pay as you go be cheaper than a travelcard?
Can I just put £25 on a PAYG oyster - would that last 5 days ? I've been reading all the comments here about oyster and all my initial enthusiasm about the card had decreased!
Any suggestions? I would appreciate your comments!

Not sure what the price of a weekly zone 1 and 2 travelcard is but if you PAYG you won't pay more than £4.40 per day for travel within those zones provided you travel after 09:30 Monday to Friday. Can't say how much you will pay in January as most likely fares will go up then.

[puritycontroller]

Thank you starfish! That sounds reasonable :-)

[wendy_ann1983]

Can anyone help?

I'm going to London next Monday (27th), staying for 5 days and travelling within zones 1 & 2 using the tube and buses.
Bearing in mind that I will also be there in January for another five days, what's the cheapest thing to do with regards to an oyster card?
Would pay as you go be cheaper than a travelcard?
Can I just put £25 on a PAYG oyster - would that last 5 days ? I've been reading all the comments here about oyster and all my initial enthusiasm about the card had decreased!
Any suggestions? I would appreciate your comments!

Oyster does have its problems but if used properly will work out cheaper.
The initial card will cost £3, you can then put up to £90 PAYG on it (though I wouldn't suggest it). If travelling after 09:30 then £25 should be enough. If you end up not using it all, anything left over will stay on the card for you to use on your next trip.
Hope you don't want to use the bus too much on 27th, as there is a strike, Metroline drivers, approx 70 different routes, though keep an eye on the news as it may change.

Just remember to ALWAYS TOUCH IN & OUT. Oh and enjoy your trip.

PS there are 2for1 deals that you can make the most of with your Oyster, look out for the leaflet in stations.

[puritycontroller]

Oyster does have its problems but if used properly will work out cheaper.
The initial card will cost £3, you can then put up to £90 PAYG on it (though I wouldn't suggest it). If travelling after 09:30 then £25 should be enough. If you end up not using it all, anything left over will stay on the card for you to use on your next trip.
Hope you don't want to use the bus too much on 27th, as there is a strike, Metroline drivers, approx 70 different routes, though keep an eye on the news as it may change.

Just remember to ALWAYS TOUCH IN & OUT. Oh and enjoy your trip.

PS there are 2for1 deals that you can make the most of with your Oyster, look out for the leaflet in stations.


Thank you for your advice! Especially for the bus strike info - I wasn't aware of that. And I'll look out for those 2for1 deals, as I'll be travelling with friends.
Thanks for taking the time to reply!

[wendy_ann1983]

Keep an eye on http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/
will deatil which services are not working

[M Thomson]

Well after the first day of the £4 charge I am still alive. However I really do need to find a new job, I have a soul and a conscience.
A poor woman came through, she had £3.80 on her card, tapped in at a station, got to her destination and it wouldn't let her out, so we checked her card and it had taken the £4 off. Leaving her -£0.20. We couldn't work out why it had done it. So for a £1 journey she ended up paying £4, just because the card decided it didn't want to play. Another guy mad 1 journey, tapped in at A- charged £4, got to station B- got charged £4 so for the 1 journey thats £8, should have only been £1, could see no reason for the card to have done it.
So beware, to be honest if youre using pre pay to get the daily cap, you may as well spend the extra 50p and buy a paper ticket, less hassle in the long run.

You should have checked their journeys made on the ticket machine. My guess is for some reason, they didn't touch in properly.

[gromituk]

From "Your texts" in "Thelondonpaper" 24/11/06:

"I was charged a penalty fare on my Oystercard twice. Staff at Waterloo said it's a random fault and they are getting hundreds of complaints. The helpdesk confirmed the problem and said they were getting loads of calls from people whose cards have been emptied this way. Don't use your Oyster card till this problem is solved." - Anonymous

Of course this might be complete baloney, and the advice given is wrong: keep using your Oyster card but keep an eye on its balance. If you don't use your Oyster card you'll simply pay more, all the time (as well as be inconvenienced).

[wendy_ann1983]

You should have checked their journeys made on the ticket machine. My guess is for some reason, they didn't touch in properly.


If it was just that they hadn't touched in/out, I wouln't have posted it. The first thing I do is to check the card usage.

We are now getting many complaints that people are being charged twice and some lucky ones are not being charged at all.

Please keep an eye on your balance using the sceern on the gates and using the touch screen machines, go to 'View Oyster Usage' this will show your last few journeys and whether you have touched in and out.

[brenmcc1]

I've just started readig this thread...not up on all the oystercard ways so am I correct in saying that if I travel off peak between zones 1-4 all day the maximum I will pay on my card is £4.90??!?!

[wendy_ann1983]

I've just started readig this thread...not up on all the oystercard ways so am I correct in saying that if I travel off peak between zones 1-4 all day the maximum I will pay on my card is £4.90??!?!

Yes, as long as you use it correctly.

[brenmcc1]

ah excellent, I've been buying day passes all the time at £5.50.
ah but toes it also count for busses too? because you can use the day pass on bus also...

[gromituk]

Read all about it on TfL's website...

[wendy_ann1983]

if your just travelling on buses it will cap at £3 for a bus pass, if you are travelling on bus and tube it will cap at travel card (only in zones travelled on tube, no bus zones anymore) you still cant use the PAYG on a lot of mainline services though.

[FannyHill]

Last time I was in New York I used a Metrocard for buses and subway and it was so easy.Use it at anytime,swipe as you enter the system,leave by the gates no swiping and very cheap.Once you swipe it's disabled for 15mins so you can't hand it to your friend to get into the system.