Dental Treatment Abroad

[elcheapo]

I need some extensive dental work and wondered if anyone has saved money by having treatment with a dentist in an Eastern European country or India. Any tips about how to go about this would be much appreciated.

[Baglady]

Hi
I know its been a while since you posted. Sorry I can't help, but I am in a similar position as you and the possibility of doing what you are thinking of is interesting. Have you talked it over with your dentist? On another post somewhere it was suggested trying a dental teaching hospital to see if a student would do the work. I tried that one, and hit a brick wall. Maybe someone else can come up with something please? I shall definitely have a think about what you are thinking of doing. Maybe we should confer?

[Ted_Hutchinson]

India (http://jaipurdentalhospital.com/cost.htm)

South africa (http://www.mediscapes.com/about_mediscapes/cost_comparison.htm)

Poland (http://www.escape2poland.co.uk/smile.html)

Hungary (http://www.dentaltravel.ch/preisliste/preisliste_en.html)

All of the above are the results of a google search and are not personal recommendations or to be regarded as medical advice.

Personally for most medical treatments abroad my concern would be what happens if something goes wrong??????

[elcheapo]

Many thanks for advice, will check out some of those sites on Google.

[suki1964]

I go to Turkey a lot and its common place for the brits to spend some of their holiday getting their teeth and eyes done

[Ria]

Does anyone know if dental work is cheaper in France or Spain?

[hrafndot]

Does anyone know if dental work is cheaper in France or Spain?

I remember reading a thread on this site (before it was re-jigged) on the old health boards stating that Brits go to Calais or other French towns as the dentistry is so good and so much cheaper. Do a search of MSN archives. Cant do one at the mo cos I've got toothache (post op)

LOL

[Ria]

Have tried searching archives but no luck. Anyone have any idea where I can find this thread please?

[hrafndot]

Have tried searching archives but no luck. Anyone have any idea where I can find this thread please?

I am going to research dentistry in France as my dentist has told me that I will never again get the quality of crowns on the NHS that I had when my front teeth were crowned 15 years ago. Apparently the labs which produce NHS crowns just cant be arksed. I will spend some time at the weekend and see if I can find the thread.

Results of the research may take some time. Bear with me.

Toothache has gone. I love my dentist.

[Ted_Hutchinson]

Dental Costs Prague / Kromeriz: (http://www.kromeriz.biz/dental-treatment-costs.html)

[Toothsmith]

Just remember to factor in a price for getting something done if it all goes pear shaped. It's human beings we're dealing with here, not washing machines. Not everything goes according to plan in any country or at any price level.

What would you do at 3am if you woke with pain & swelling from an Indian tooth implant?

Keep smiling!

[AJM]

Hi, My family dentist retired from the NHS two years ago and we've been unable to register with another. The "caring" private dentists ,if you were able to register with them which is not possible in our area at the moment, charge astronical fees which are way out of our range. Has anyone been abroad as a "dental tourist" to Poland, Hungary etc. recently? if so we would appreciate any info about who you saw , how you organised the trip etc..
Thanks in anticipation
AJM

[Hobo17]

I have a huge amount of dental work which needs doing - replacement for 4 veneers, another 2 new veneers, 8 fillings... This was pointed out to me about 2 years ago, unfortunately I couldn't afford to have any of it done at the time and I haven't been able to bring myself to go back since. Probably even more problems have developed since I last went to the dentist! Has anyone ever travelled abroad for dental work? I have been googling and seen prices that are less than a quarter of what you'd pay in the UK ( i was quoted 2k for replacing 4 veneers in the UK on my last visit) - is this too good to be true? Does anyone have any recommendations of how to go about it?

[Toothsmith]

Stick 'Dentist Abroad' in the search facility on this forum, and you'll find similar threads.

My advice is on them.

[Toothsmith]

There was THIS (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=94423) thread too.

[Hobo17]

Thanks, that link is the one I managed to find. Unfortunately getting it done here is not an option due to the cost and I really think that at least the 4 replacement veneers need re-doing. They feel like they're about to come off, and quite a lot of the original tooth was shaved away in order to fit them. They were sensitive enough to start with so I don't think I could really leave them with no veneers on them :( They were originally done at a teaching hospital but I was only 16 then. Apparently I wouldn't be eligible to have them re-done there :(

[cath-w]

I have had dental work done abroad, but only when I lived there. I would suggest going to a county where you speak the language well, or where they are able to speak English as this will help explaining the treatment. You also need to find somewhere that is cheap and easy to get to. I had treament in Belgium and it was very good, no complaints at all.

[Agutka]

I was getting quotes for years for my one tooth (killed when I was in my teens :( ) and then I was in Poland and found a dentist who just covered my front teeth with fillings - quicker (well, three hours in the chair) than veneers - that was two years ago, I look fabulous and it only cost £200 for 4 teeth. And the surgery was shinier than any private clinic I've visited here, apart from 'smile', where the shine was so fake I never ran so fast in my life to get out of there.

That was my one experience.

I do not envy you, the horrors that await... Hope it goes smoothly and quickly.
In my childhood, going to the dentist was my after school activity! I'll never forget the evil Mrs Brown!

[karena]

My husband and his friend both need dental treatment, teeth have dropped out so really need quite a lot done, implants mainly! Anyone had any experience in Europe, Poland may be?

[Teerah]

My husband and his friend both need dental treatment, teeth have dropped out so really need quite a lot done, implants mainly! Anyone had any experience in Europe, Poland may be?


I would be wary of getting implants abroad because the "teeth have dropped out". Implants are only successful if there is an adequate amount of good quality bone present. Teeth only fall out due to periodontal disease which indicates poor bone quality and certainly a reduced quantity present. If your family have a consultation here, any respectable oral surgeon will only go ahead if they feel the conditions are right and they have a good chance of success. Also they will have a comeback should any problems ensue and the more complex the treatment the more likely there will be problems associated. Implants, being a complex treatment option, will have a higher failure rate than most other dental treatments. Therefore, it is wise to have a thorough assessment first as good success is dependant on good case selection and not on just doing treatment on request.

[Toothsmith]

But for some people Teerah, cheap will always beat 'done properly'.

[Petal]

Hi there

I went to the dentist this morning. It seems I have an abcess above one of my front teeth (which is a crown on a post)...I will have to have this removed, I have bone loss and will need a bone graft...will have to wear a plate with one tooth on it whilst the bone grows and then have an implant. My dental surgery is fantastic and has all the latest equipment etc. but I'm really worried about the cost. I have to go for a consult first and will probably get a quote then. It just seems that as soon as I think I'm getting financially straight I get whacked with a huge bill for something (last one was £1200 for a new clutch etc).

Was feeling v sorry for myself this morning....I thought I'd just have to have antibiotics! (have got those too)

Ah well.....

[ivyleaf]

Poor you, Petal - I have had exactly the same problem with one of my front teeth, though it's a jacket crown. I had antibiotics, and thankfully the abscess is a bit smaller each time I have an x-ray. It seems to be healing itself. I was originally told I'd probably need a transplant, but it looks as if I may get away with it. Hope you do too - thinking of you!


ivyleaf. :rudolf:

[Teerah]

Antibiotics treat the symptoms of the infection and may control the infection for a while but it is not a longterm treatment. The cause of the problem should be investigated and remedied.

[Testee]

I had tooth troubles whilst travelling and had a crown fitted in Spain - the treatment was absolutely first class. The dentist spoke perfect English, the facilities were much more modern and up to date than any dentist I've been to in the UK. He was really helpful, kind and sympathetic (I'm a real baby with dental surgery), and he explained everything that needed to be done.

Also when I was travelling a lot of people used to go to Agadir in Morocco to have their dental work done. There are a lot of European dentists there, mainly Belgian, and I heard nothing but good reports about the treatment.

[studoc]

Has anyone been abroad for implants and found it successful?

[Rachel71]

Hello

I wondered if anyone could give me some advice about whether to have dental treatment in France or in the UK. I work for a company with an office in Paris and work 4-5 months each year in France (the rest in London) with some trips back and forth. I've previously had all my dental work in the UK. However, I felt some pain in my teeth when brushing them so, panicked, and booked a checkup with a dentist here recommended by some of the people I work with here. The dentist has said that I need quite extensive work, including:

- redoing a root filling
- putting a crown on the root filling
- replacing some other fillings.

I am worried that this will be quite costly (I would have to pay the full cost in France) and am so looking at the options in both France and the UK. I have an NHS dentist in the UK and am thinking about booking an appointment with her when I next go back. However, I have found that her examinations have tended to be quite quick and the French dentist was quite critical of the way the root filling (which my UK dentist did) had been done. I've had checkups every 9 months-1 year.

So....my question is....should I get the treatment done in France/get a second opinion from my UK dentist when I next go back/get a second opinion in France? And does anyone have any views as to whether the work is likely to be better done in the UK or France?

Any help/advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks v much
R

[Toothsmith]

There have been research papers in this country showing that the standard of root fillings done on the NHS is generally less than acceptable.

This is because dentists on the NHS generally don't have the time to do them properly. There are also some pretty crappy ones done in private practice, but on the whole, the dentist in a private practice could and should be able to spend more time doing them.

Root fillings should take at least an hour on a simple one rooted tooth (Front one) and 90 mins + for a more complicated back tooth. Ideally the tooth to be worked on should also be isolated from the rest of the mouth with a rubber dam (So the bug soup known as saliva can't get into and re-infect the tooth).

My private charge to root fill a back tooth is £300. On the NHS, it's about £60 with the Government chipping in an extra £15- so you can see how much time the NHS guy has to work with!

Re-root filling a tooth is never as successful as when you have the first go, because the bugs have become more established. If I can see an obvious failing of the previous root filling, I give the patient a choice, I can have a try and charge £300, or I can refer to a specialist endodontist (Root filler!) who will charge £500+ but almost certainly save the tooth. If the previous root filling looks as good as I could do it, then I offer the patient the choice of seeing the specialist, or I'll take the tooth out.

So, in short, have it done at the most convienient country. If trouble flares up during treatment, the last thing you will want is a ferry or plane ride!

If you are going to get it done in the UK, I would find a good private practice that can spend some time on the job, or ask your NHs lady for a referal to an endo specialist.

I'm afraid if you want to keep the tooth, then the cheapest job will not do the trick. Don't necessarily go for the dearest option, but go for the practitioner you feel most comfortable with that will do the best job for you.

[Rachel71]

Hello Toothsmith

Thank you very much for your reply, that's really useful. The French dentist showed me the x ray for the root filling and explained why she didn't think it had been done very well - she said that the filled in bit didn't reach all the way down as it should do (I'm probably not explaining this very well). The tooth is a bottom molar (third from the back, sixth from the front) Although the tooth and the filling is ok at the moment (the root filling was done in June 2005), she said that there is a risk of infection and showed me a darker area around the bottom part of the roots of the tooth where she thought there might be such a risk. So I don't think that there is any infection at the moment, the replacement would be more to prevent the risk in the future. Would this mean a greater chance of success with the replacement root filing? And then she says that I would need a crown on top to protect the tooth plus the replacement fillings (replacing some which I had done during my teens).

This was what the dentist said to me following the checkup - she is going to send me a written report and treatment plan and then I have an appointment next week with her to discuss the report/plan (and the cost...). This is without a commitment. I would really like a second opinion as the work (from what she said) seems to be quite extensive, particularly with the root filling. I'm in Paris at the moment and will be until mid/end May, although I do go back to the UK for short periods for work so should be able to go to my NHS dentist before then. I would like to take the report from the French dentist to the NHS dentist (or another dentist) in the UK to show them, although it will be in French, the dentist is going to include the xrays and then I should be able to translate what is written in the report for the UK dentist.

As regards convenient, I think that its pretty much equal between France and the UK. I'm in France usually from Jan-May so whether I get it done in France or in the UK its pretty much 50/50 as to whether I will be in the "right" country if/when I have any dental problems. I think that the quality of work and my confidence in the dentist are more important. Cost is also (unfortunately) an issue - whilst I want the best for my teeth, I don't have limitless funds and if it is likely to be more than a few thousand pounds I will probably have to delay the work. That's also partly why I would like a second opinion, to see whether having the work in the UK would be cheaper, even if I went privately (which I think I would do).

Poor teeth....
Thanks again
R

[Mado]

If you can get someone to recommend the dentist in France (you want good work!), then it probably would be better.

The reason being that in France there is no demarcation between NHS (well Securite Sociale ) and private: virtually all dentists will do some work where you can get a small amount refunded by Social security and bigger jobs (such as crowns) will be out of your pocket. So there is less of a demarcation between poor and rich dentists!

[Toothsmith]

I don't quite understand Mado's reasoning.

I do like the way the french dentist is operating, and that's the sort of level of service anybody should look for in any country.

I think the job will come in at a lot less than 'a few thousand' in either country, although I've only your (really quite good) descriptions to go on.

It is worth pointing out that a dentist is completely responsible for the treatment they provide, and saying 'Well, I did it on the NHS' is no excuse for poor treatment.

I wouldn't muck about too much with more opinions. If the costs seem OK at your next chat with the French dentist, and you are happy there, then get it done there as soon as you are able.

[building]

have you looked into private medical insurance and see if they cover you for zwork on teeth abroad? what about your personal resources division in france do they offer employees anything you could find out about and use as an employee. could be one of the perks of the job?Hello

I wondered if anyone could give me some advice about whether to have dental treatment in France or in the UK. I work for a company with an office in Paris and work 4-5 months each year in France (the rest in London) with some trips back and forth. I've previously had all my dental work in the UK. However, I felt some pain in my teeth when brushing them so, panicked, and booked a checkup with a dentist here recommended by some of the people I work with here. The dentist has said that I need quite extensive work, including:

- redoing a root filling
- putting a crown on the root filling
- replacing some other fillings.

I am worried that this will be quite costly (I would have to pay the full cost in France) and am so looking at the options in both France and the UK. I have an NHS dentist in the UK and am thinking about booking an appointment with her when I next go back. However, I have found that her examinations have tended to be quite quick and the French dentist was quite critical of the way the root filling (which my UK dentist did) had been done. I've had checkups every 9 months-1 year.

So....my question is....should I get the treatment done in France/get a second opinion from my UK dentist when I next go back/get a second opinion in France? And does anyone have any views as to whether the work is likely to be better done in the UK or France?

Any help/advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks v much
R

[Rachel71]

Hello
Was just wondering if maybe Toothsmith (or anyone else, but Toothsmith has been really helpful) could give me some advice on my treatment. I've now received my report/treatment plan from french dentist. She has said that I need to have the following:

-root canal with specialist (the endodentist) then crown with inlay core
-8 composite inlays to replace old fillings
-receding gums (5) to be protected with composite

She has given me a quote of E4,500 (ouch) for everything except the root canal (because this will be done by the specialist), which she estimated would cost E500-E700.

Is this reasonable? From what I can work out, this seems to be similar to what I would pay with a private dentist in the UK but would appreciate any advice. Given that the root canal which needs replacing was done by the nhs dentist, I'm thinking that it would be better to go private for this work (although if I had it done in france it would be private). And why would the old fillings (metal) need to be replaced - do they wear out?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Rachel

[Toothsmith]

Hi Rachel,

I can't give any advice on the necessity of any of the treatment as I haven't seen you.

Do you feel happy with the treatment plan? What you've said about the root filling sounds to me like that part of the treatment is quite correct. (BTW - It's endodontist, not endodentist ;) )

The composite inlays will look very nice. Was that the only way of restoring those teeth? Did you have any options? Did she have an intra-oral camera and was able to show you why they needed replacing? Could they be done over a longer period of time if you don't want to pay that much all at once?

It is true to say that if you go to 4 different dentists you will get 4 different treatment plans. None is 'right' or 'wrong' (Unless it's plain stupid, but there's not that many of those dentists around, they just make the headlines a lot!)

It's just some dentists have a more intervention based philosophy, and like everything to be as perfect as it can be, and some prefer to mend and patch wherever possible and make existing repairs last as long as possible.

As I said earlier, I do like the way your French dentist seems to operate. It seems very up front and honest. The prices sound about right, and it should be a lovely job for that money.

If you are happy with everything, then go ahead. If not, either discuss options again with that dentist or try somewhere else. I wouldn't chop & change too much though, you'll spend a fortune in examination charges, and be thoroughly confused by the end of it all!

[jamescredmond]

y'all,
I keep hearing about private dental treatment available in poland at a fraction of the uk cost. even when the cost of flights/hotels are taken into account there are still significant savings to be had. is there any truth to this? if so, does anyone how the arrangements are made?
I'd be really grateful for any info because my teeth are looking more like the ruins of rome.

[Toothsmith]

Put 'dental treatment abroad' into the search bit. It's been discussed quite a bit.

My view is that if humans were washing machines who just needed standard spare parts taken out and put back in, it would be a great idea. But we're not.

Not everything works with people every time. Treatments that work well for one person, can go horribly wrong for someone else. (Look at Lesley Ash!)

If you'd gone off on a cheap flight to Poland, got things sorted, then had an abscess blow up when you get back what would you do?

Cheap flights back have to be booked in months in advance. A local dentist would have to start right at the beginning with no idea what had been done in Poland. The chances of you getting it fixed on the NHS are slimmer than your chances of seeing an NHS dentist now, and repair costs might well be more than you paid to get it done in the first place.

You pays yer money..........

[Bossyboots]

The only thing I would say to this is that I use a private dentist whose newly employed staff are Polish. They are really very good so I wouldn't have any qualms on that point about going to Poland to get work done in that respect but the difficulties Toothsmith mentions are the things that would make me have it done here.

Seems I might have the best of both worlds now though even if it does cost more.

[Undisputedtruth]

I've spoken to a number of dentists in this country about a particular treatment and most of them were quite poor in communicating prices and treatments. However, I was stunned when I spoke to several representatives from the Hungarian dentists as their level of English were excellent and they were very clear in their prices as well as their knowledge in dentistry.

I certainly would have no qualms in travelling over to Hungary to get some treatment done. There is no other city in the world that have more dentist per population than Budapest and the Dentists are on par with their peers in the Western world.

It could take up to 2 weeks to see some of the better dentists in the UK so it might be quicker to book a flight and travel to Hungary.

[Inspiron]

would suggest find a good uk dentist. see the extra money spent as an investment. im sure in the long run ull see the benifits.

Depending on what you need we have some amazing dentists.. truly world class.

Do you have specifics of what treatment you need or may possibly need?

[gamma]

World class dentists but probably the worst teeth in the world? Why is that?

[Toothsmith]

That's more to do with the patients & society.

The NHS has lulled them into the expectation that dentistry is only worth a few quid if anything.

When quoted realistic prices, they prefer to do without.

They're probably not 'the worst teeth in the world'. Just the developed world.

[gamma]

Yes probably true, my teeth arent that great and currently have 2 appointments coming up £280 later! But then again some people are far worse off then me! Just look at Scotland - the worst I've ever seen

As your online - quick question - Ive had a filling and the tooth directly behind it needs a filling too - (ive not had any problems pain or sensitivity wise) but since the filling the tooth is extremely sensitive to hot or cold - Been to the dentist yesterday to do another tooth and he said that the sensitivity is probably due to the decay in the tooth behind? Do u think this is correct? Ive heard sometimes the filling can have a void in it that causes sensitivity although I dont know much more?

Any advise?

[Toothsmith]

Yes probably true, my teeth arent that great and currently have 2 appointments coming up £280 later! But then again some people are far worse off then me! Just look at Scotland - the worst I've ever seen

As your online - quick question - Ive had a filling and the tooth directly behind it needs a filling too - (ive not had any problems pain or sensitivity wise) but since the filling the tooth is extremely sensitive to hot or cold - Been to the dentist yesterday to do another tooth and he said that the sensitivity is probably due to the decay in the tooth behind? Do u think this is correct? Ive heard sometimes the filling can have a void in it that causes sensitivity although I dont know much more?

Any advise?

It could be anything. Teeth can often be sensitive after filling for a few weeks. When the filling behind is done, you'll know! :p

Fillings can have voids, or worse, decay left underneath them, but not by a dentist taking his time to do it properly, and charging accordingly, I would hope!

[gamma]

Well they're def charging accordingly! £280 for 3 visits :) Grrr oh well Investment I suppose! Anyway suppose I will know after a couple of weeks strange thing is my teeth has never been sensitive not even the day after a filling and mind the one I got yesterday is not even sensitive today so something is really up!

[Toothsmith]

Well they're def charging accordingly! £280 for 3 visits :) Grrr oh well Investment I suppose! Anyway suppose I will know after a couple of weeks strange thing is my teeth has never been sensitive not even the day after a filling and mind the one I got yesterday is not even sensitive today so something is really up!

I hit the 'Thanks' instead of the 'quote' :o

Teeth can sometimes be sensitive after filling, even if they weren't beforehand.

It is a living tissue that is being drilled into after all.

In a way this illustrates beautifully why making a trip to Poland to have stuff done is such a bad idea.

Even in good practices, unpredictable things happen. All it would take would be one bacteria to find its way through the dentine (Which looks as holey as a sponge under a microscope) and an infection could start.

I don't for one moment think this has happened with you, and I'm quite sure your tooth will settle down, but stuff happens!

At least when you're close to the practice, you can easily pop back to get reassurance, or treatment if necessary.

[gamma]

I suppose you are correct they are after all just down the road and I have some comeback( they did say if it gets bad they can take me in before work to make sure its sorted) which I suppose comes with the £280 price tag. However when youre just back from Poland and you have a MAJOR issue then youre up ^**" creek? Without a paddle? :P

Anyway I was just abit miffed about the sensitivity of the tooth specially since I've never had such sensitivity before!Hmm

Another thing is my dentist is not keen on me having my teeth whitened, he says its not neccesary...although I think it is... hmmm.Probably gonna try a home kit - Ill refer to the other thread for that :P

[raymond]

Ironically many of them probably trained in the UK courtesy of our taxes !

[Toothsmith]

Another thing is my dentist is not keen on me having my teeth whitened, he says its not neccesary...although I think it is... hmmm.Probably gonna try a home kit - Ill refer to the other thread for that :P


Noooooo!

Have another word with him.

There could be a very good reason why he doesn't think it's good for you.

It is quite a profitable treatment for the dentist to do. He'd be happy to do it IF HE THOUGHT IT WOULD WORK. If he didn't think it would work, it would look bad on him if he 'sold' it to you, and you were unhappy with the result.

By suggesting it's 'not necessary' he could just be trying to damp down your desire to have it done!

If you have white fillings or porcelain at the front of your mouth then they won't change colour, and will look very odd after treatment. If your teeth are a browny red shade, or a grey shade, then whitening is very difficult. It works best on yellow. (These are the subtle underlying shades).

Speak to him again, and get the real reason he doesn't want to do it!

[gamma]

Mine are a pale shade of yellow no brown or greys I do have some white fillings but none in the front of my teeth in the front of my mouth - only oen behind my front tooth..

He quoted about £250 for this and says it might last 18 months if that...
Any suggestions?

[Toothsmith]

Ironically many of them probably trained in the UK courtesy of our taxes !

Foreign students either pay their own fees, or have their governments pay them. That's why British universities prefer foreign students. They don't get shafted like they do by our own government

[Toothsmith]

Mine are a pale shade of yellow no brown or greys I do have some white fillings but none in the front of my teeth in the front of my mouth - only oen behind my front tooth..

He quoted about £250 for this and says it might last 18 months if that...
Any suggestions?


I would have another word.

The price he's quoted sounds good (I charge £360).

It could just be that he's not done many cases, and he's not very confident in the treatment. I was a bit like that when I first started offering it.

I have found though that it is very reliable if you choose the right cases, and it does last for a lot more than 18 months.

[gamma]

The method he described is a tray version where you have to sleep with the tray in your mouth or something to that respect? is this true / good? do u know of that system at all?

Or would you recommend me going to a place like harley street or the like ?

[Toothsmith]

That's the system I use. I find it reliable & long lasting.

Have another word with your own dentist . Going to Harley Street will have a huge premium to pay for the prestigious address.

[lola rose]

has anyone went over to Poland hor dental treatment

[Bargainbabe]

No but my dentist is Polish!

[lewt]

yea had really bad experience try czech repubilic i heard there they at least let the numbness set in b4 they start!!!!!!

[ManAtHome]

Got a mention on the radio this morning, story here http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=105&ArticleID=1392110

[marco1234]

I cant find a thread for health so i'll try here. need a dentist but cannot afford extortionate prices here. Has anyone experienced using a Polish dentist, and gone there to have treatment?

[Bossyboots]

The thread for health is in the Marriage, Families etc. board as a sub board.

[stluke023]

hungary, border of austria and hungary i beleive it is , is the place where the tourists go especially the germans. Watched a documentary on it- amazing

[Pink-winged]

Hi Marco,

I'll move your thread over to the health board for you.

Pink

[Murtle]

I haven't used Poland for dental treatment but have booked treatment in both Mauritius and South Africa, both were booked through friends or family dentists. Top quality treatment, I'd be sure to book through a regulated group if going to Poland as I don't know what their standards of learning are like. Good luck

[CashBash]

These links should help:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8123-2091078,00.html

http://www.treatmentabroad.net/

[CashBash]

My reply to this similar thread should help:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=176511

[saz9961]

After being landed with a whopping £6500 estimate from my (provincial) dentist for a pre-molar implant, a crown and some restorative work on worn molars (using the Dahl technique),, I've really got to look for alternatives. I know dentistry abroad is a fairly popular subject on this board, but hopefully I'll have some questions that haven't been covered before.

1. One concern is through a dentist making a hash of things, and an infection resulting. I've no reason to think that a Hungarian dentist is any more competant than my UK dentist (I read a particularly galling post on a Irish message board noting how bad UK dentists were). I'm a microbiologist by profession, and understand the reasons why any dental surgery is usually followed up by a prophylactic course of antibiotics. What else could go wrong that would be difficult to fix here?
2. Post-operative care; putting in an implant means the gum is stitched/sutured over after the metal post is put into the jaw bone, to allow osso-integration. Somehow.somewhere, the sutures need to be removed; anyone had any problems in a UK dentist carrying out this procedure?
3. My UK dentist has naturally warned me away from going overseas; he cites the lack of insurance and whether guaranteees would be honoured or not. As far as I can make out, Hungarian Law requires all dentists to carry liability insurance, so that appears to be no problem, but on the other aspect I'm not clear about. Those that I have contacted, such as the "British Hungarian Dentist Association" have assured me if a particular dentist left their group, another would be appointed. But I'm not sure what consumer rights I will have. Can I refer to English Common Law, or Hungarian law, or something other. If I use good ol' Barclaycard to pay for it, if there was a non-mdeical compliocation, I could leave it to them to sort out the mess?
4. During my researches, I have come across the "British Academy of Aesthetic Dentistry" and the "Association of Dental Implantology", both of which list Hungarian members. Are these truely professional bodies, and does membership of them actually mean anything?
http://www.adi.org.uk/
http://www.baad.org.uk/

[stluke023]

holiday resort now for germans going primarily for there teeth and then incorporating the other pleasures of holdays.
If the Germans are doing it and their dentists and standards arguably are higher than the uk,---have a holiday go to Hungary

[CashBash]

Saz - see if these links provide you with answers or details of how to find out more information:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8123-2091078.html

http://www.treatmentabroad.net/

[Toothsmith]

there seem to be a fair few of these cropping up today.

Type 'dental treatment abroad' into the search bit at the top, and you'll see it's been discused a fair bit before.

[saz9961]

there seem to be a fair few of these cropping up today.

Type 'dental treatment abroad' into the search bit at the top, and you'll see it's been discused a fair bit before.


I take it from your postings you are a practicing UK dentist. Can you comment on the above linked organisations? Its difficult to dissociate fact from advertising guff at times.

The easy option would be just to go to my exisiting dentist, and get hawked up to the eyeballs. But amongst the many things he was to do is a crown on a root canal filled tooth, on the pretext that the tooth is now more brittle. That might be, but he's obviously forgotten that he had done the tooth 10 years, and its been perfectly fine since then. Sounds a bit like gouging to me.

[Toothsmith]

I have made comment on other threads.

Those organisations are just glorified, if rather specialized travel agents. They run it as a business to make themselves a living. They will be on a %age of whatever you pay.

Dentists in this country and all countries are also running businesses. We too have to make a profit.

The reason it's dearer in this country than Poland/Hungary is because costs are higher.

We're cheaper than Germany, Ireland, USA, Canada.......

Your tooth has been fine for 10 years, but, as your dentist says, dead teeth are more brittle. You would be cross if it broke and needed extracting, and he said, "Oh dear - we could have saved that if we'd crowned it last year!"

If you trust a travel agent and an unknown dentist more than your own (Regular?) dentist then go for it.

Hopefully nothing will go wrong, and you won't be forced to fly to Warsaw with a face the size of a football.

[Toothsmith]

Sorry - if you meant the two organisations in your first post. I'd not heard of either of them until tonight!

From a brief look though, it would seem you just have to pay to be a member rather than do any exams. I haven't looked closely though.

[Undisputedtruth]

FYI

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=105&ArticleID=1392110

Undisputedtruth

[Toothsmith]

FYI

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=105&ArticleID=1392110

Undisputedtruth

Another advert for a holiday company!

[iwin_r]

Hi, this is my first thread.We have been to Budapest twice with a further trip end of May.
1.Kreative Dental were excellent and I had extensive work. All my teeth are porcelain/metal crowned with an upper denture (unavoidable in my case bone density not suitable for implants) which clips on (never option in UK)also a lower 2 tooth denture which clips in and is released by a gold key in the side of the denture(never seen before they only do 1/2 a year in Kreative)
2.Antibiotics are given to all patients as part of the package. Since the hotel is less than 5 mins walk from the clinc any probs are seen quickly.
3.My husband had 3 metal posts put in in January and had stitches removed by our local dentist who is happy to maintain our dental work. He also approved of our going, we consulted him first.His completed costs will be similar to mine £5k+ this includes a bridge.He has had no problems. Our dentist says this is top quality work and he highly approved.
4. All work is fully guarranteed. A uk based dentist is available to lease with at any time. We did not pay by credit card since 3% discount is offered and we took it.Paid for the trip.
5. Finally our experience is that these are professionals who work to a higher standar than any dentist I have been to in the Uk ,since I cant afford a Harley Street clinician I cant compare those.
6.My estimate for work in the Uk was around £24.000.00 It cost me £5.500.00 (completed)in Budapest. Plus we had a good stay enjoying the beautiful cities of Buda and pest. If only we had a transport system like theirs. Incidently a free bus,train,tram pass is given for your stay. A taxi collects you and returns you to airport and the hotel while basic is ok is also subsidised by the clinic.
7.Whilst there all we met were very happy with dental proceedures.If you dont like the Amedaus Hotel you can stay elsewhere at your own cost.The menu caters for dental patients.
Hope all this helps do look at www.kreativedent.co.uk its an informative site.Oh we are pensioners.I have a smile to envy now :D After being landed with a whopping £6500 estimate from my (provincial) dentist for a pre-molar implant, a crown and some restorative work on worn molars (using the Dahl technique),, I've really got to look for alternatives. I know dentistry abroad is a fairly popular subject on this board, but hopefully I'll have some questions that haven't been covered before.

1. One concern is through a dentist making a hash of things, and an infection resulting. I've no reason to think that a Hungarian dentist is any more competant than my UK dentist (I read a particularly galling post on a Irish message board noting how bad UK dentists were). I'm a microbiologist by profession, and understand the reasons why any dental surgery is usually followed up by a prophylactic course of antibiotics. What else could go wrong that would be difficult to fix here?
2. Post-operative care; putting in an implant means the gum is stitched/sutured over after the metal post is put into the jaw bone, to allow osso-integration. Somehow.somewhere, the sutures need to be removed; anyone had any problems in a UK dentist carrying out this procedure?
3. My UK dentist has naturally warned me away from going overseas; he cites the lack of insurance and whether guaranteees would be honoured or not. As far as I can make out, Hungarian Law requires all dentists to carry liability insurance, so that appears to be no problem, but on the other aspect I'm not clear about. Those that I have contacted, such as the "British Hungarian Dentist Association" have assured me if a particular dentist left their group, another would be appointed. But I'm not sure what consumer rights I will have. Can I refer to English Common Law, or Hungarian law, or something other. If I use good ol' Barclaycard to pay for it, if there was a non-mdeical compliocation, I could leave it to them to sort out the mess?
4. During my researches, I have come across the "British Academy of Aesthetic Dentistry" and the "Association of Dental Implantology", both of which list Hungarian members. Are these truely professional bodies, and does membership of them actually mean anything?
http://www.adi.org.uk/
http://www.baad.org.uk/

[Toothsmith]

3.My husband had 3 metal posts put in in January and had stitches removed by our local dentist who is happy to maintain our dental work. He also approved of our going, we consulted him first.


This has the feel of another advert!

In this country, a dentist can be held liable and sued if a person he recommends to carry out some work on referal causes problems.

In 'approving' your trip, your dentist was taking a huge risk. Unless he had personal knowledge of the surgeon who would carry out the proceedures.

If you or anyone else wants to do this, then that is your choice and your money.

Nothing goes 100% right 100% of the time though, and Budapest is a long way to go if things ever go seriously wrong.

BTW - your link doesn't work.

I have found the site by doing a search, and your address looks OK, but I can't get it to link either!

[saz9961]

I have made comment on other threads.

Those organisations are just glorified, if rather specialized travel agents. They run it as a business to make themselves a living. They will be on a %age of whatever you pay.

Dentists in this country and all countries are also running businesses. We too have to make a profit.

The reason it's dearer in this country than Poland/Hungary is because costs are higher.

We're cheaper than Germany, Ireland, USA, Canada.......

Your tooth has been fine for 10 years, but, as your dentist says, dead teeth are more brittle. You would be cross if it broke and needed extracting, and he said, "Oh dear - we could have saved that if we'd crowned it last year!"

If you trust a travel agent and an unknown dentist more than your own (Regular?) dentist then go for it.

Hopefully nothing will go wrong, and you won't be forced to fly to Warsaw with a face the size of a football.

Well, I suppose people have differing perceptions of dental competance. The popular perception for instance on Irish bulletin boards is that UK dentists are not as well trained as their Irish counterparts. Maybe there is a little bias there.

What I am annoyed with is my present dentist noticed molar wear 10 years ago, when I was a NHS patient with him, and took a mould to track changes. Mysteriously, he has now lost the casting. I have had 2 casts taken in the last year, being charged for them now I am private(same dentist). One of his (older, much more experienced) colleagues wasn't too concerned by the wear, thinking it was historic, and just needed monitoring. Of course, two Professionals will disagree.

And at my last exam, this dentist didn't mention my clearly filled lower premolar. I think I saw the "£" symbols light up when I kind of agreed to get an implant done. Yep, the tooth might break, but it could of broken last year as well; no mention of a restorative op then....

I'm a bit suspect of posts on forum like this of glowing recommendations from newly registered users; sounds a bit like a plant. Apologies if you are not! But Vitaleurope do now hold London consultations; its only going to cost £40 to get a second opinion, so little risk at that stage. Just hope it doesn't turn into a timeshare type hardsell. Still, if it did, I'd be the first to gripe publically about it.

Professionally, British Dentistry sounds in a bit of a mess, if there are unaccredited organisations floating about.

This article seems to be a more sober assessment of Hungarian dentistry:
http://www.budapesttimes.hu/index.php?art=747

Put this article through Google Translate:
http://www.budapesttimes.hu/index.php?art=747

It got me thinking; German and Austrian health Insurers are routinely paying for their clients to get Dental work done in Hungary (and other places). If the standard of work was low, these insurers would surely be facing extra rectification costs, and would quite quickly stamp on substandard practices (ie. not pay for work they would approve of).

I'm well aware that labour costs will dictate a portion of the costs, but clearly, dental labour costs in this country are staggering; the cost of materials themselves don't really vary from country to country (gold is gold, after all). UK dentists, in my experience, are more expensive than US counterparts for routine work. I had a tooth attended to in the US. Cost was £40 for a large filling, £20 for an x-ray. Standard of care was excellent; the dentist didn't use an injection to numb the gum, preferring a codeine (or similar) wad), which did just fine.

As for travelling to Budepest; right now I face a 4 hour round trip to see my dentist. If I had a problem, I know he can't get to see me immediately; and would suggest Nurofen for a couple of weeks until an appointment could be made. So I don't have access on demand here either.

[Toothsmith]

I think you just need to find a dentist you can trust - in any country you fancy!

My concern is always continuity of care. People tend to get the worst deal out of dentistry whan they chop & change dentists regularly for one reason or another.

Everybody is different. They have different habits, different diets and things that work well on one person can go terribly wrong on another person.

It takes a while, but given a period of time, a dentist will get to know what works well for one person,and what doesn't work at all. then, that person will be well cared for, and happy with their dentist.

My concern over going abroad for treatment is nothing to do with 'inferior' or 'superior' techniques. It is continuity of care.

A lot of people reading the adverts for foreign clinics will come away with the impression that if they spent a whole load of money on their teeth (which would be a lot less than if the same thing were done in this country) they will never have a dental problem again. Or it will be many years until they do, and then another trip will sort it out again.

This is not true.

Wherever you go, and whatever you have done, you will need regular maintenance. This maintenance will be best done where the work was done.

So, a trip out there now to get £35000 worth of dental work done for £10000 including travel looks brilliant.

Spending £350 to get £75 worth of maintenance twice a year doesn't.

But of course you could get that done in this country, but that would mean chopping & changing.


And there are unaccredited organisations for many trades & professions in many countries. UK dentistry is by no means alone in that one!!

[Undisputedtruth]

Another advert for a holiday company!

Indeed, for the cost of treatment in the UK you can take a holiday, have high quality treatment and still save money.

Has the penny dropped yet Toothsmith?

Undisputedtruth

[Toothsmith]

At least you now accept a dentist can be 'High Quality' without resorting to unproven Ozone treatments.

A penny must have dropped there :p

One more and you'll be a full shilling.

[Undisputedtruth]

At least you now accept a dentist can be 'High Quality' without resorting to unproven Ozone treatments.

A penny must have dropped there :p

One more and you'll be a full shilling.

Poor thing, trying to put words into my again with your tired Ozone argument. Even worse is your unoriginal penny comment! If you had enough esteem in your ability then you wouldn't be misrepresenting my words.

Anyway, moving on the dentist abroad thread, I believe there is a website which gives recommendation on dentists in Europe. Hopefully this will take the uncertainty out of choosing a dentist without the bickering of a certain dentist on this thread who is obviously looking after his self interest.

Undisputedtruth

[saz9961]

I think you just need to find a dentist you can trust - in any country you fancy!

My concern is always continuity of care. People tend to get the worst deal out of dentistry whan they chop & change dentists regularly for one reason or another.

Everybody is different. They have different habits, different diets and things that work well on one person can go terribly wrong on another person.

It takes a while, but given a period of time, a dentist will get to know what works well for one person,and what doesn't work at all. then, that person will be well cared for, and happy with their dentist.

My concern over going abroad for treatment is nothing to do with 'inferior' or 'superior' techniques. It is continuity of care.

A lot of people reading the adverts for foreign clinics will come away with the impression that if they spent a whole load of money on their teeth (which would be a lot less than if the same thing were done in this country) they will never have a dental problem again. Or it will be many years until they do, and then another trip will sort it out again.

This is not true.

Wherever you go, and whatever you have done, you will need regular maintenance. This maintenance will be best done where the work was done.

So, a trip out there now to get £35000 worth of dental work done for £10000 including travel looks brilliant.

Spending £350 to get £75 worth of maintenance twice a year doesn't.

But of course you could get that done in this country, but that would mean chopping & changing.


And there are unaccredited organisations for many trades & professions in many countries. UK dentistry is by no means alone in that one!!


I appreciate the angle you are coming from. As I indicated, I have been with the same dentist over 10 years now (actually cracking on for 17 years on and off, with interim periods seeing NHS dentists in other parts of the country, and dentists in the US). He had no problem taking over from my previous dentist; you seem to suggest one dentist is incapable of maintaining the results of another's "work". I don't buy that.

Actually, I am perfectly realistic in my expectations. I have 3 areas of work that need attanding to:
1. A missing upper premolar. Recently extracted. Teeth either side are prefectly sound. Estimated cost here: £2300-2800. An implant I presume is a fairly standard technique; the parts/systems used are one of about half a dozen different brands.
2. A lower premolar crown; I don't believe this needs to be urgently seen to.
3. Worn upper and lower premolars. The dentist wants to use the Dahl technique to build up the tooth surface, and restore the teeth (6 teeth affected). Now this I imagine is far less straightforward, and would require frequent monitoring by the dentist. Cost is £160 for the initial white fillings, then £500 per adhesive gold filling.

Basically, there is no way I am going to spend £6500+ on my teeth right now.

I'm not so naive that this means no more dentistry; please give me more credit than that :mad:

Your suggestion that work and maintenance on teeth should be kept to one dentist is fair enough. But I am shocked that you suggest that you consider the level of professionalism of dentistry in the UK is the same as the "trades". I think we have all heard of cowboy plumbers.....

How do YOU assess the competancy of a new dentist. Let him carry out a couple of grand worth of work before deciding (somehow) he's any good?

[saz9961]

Poor thing, trying to put words into my again with your tired Ozone argument. Even worse is your unoriginal penny comment! If you had enough esteem in your ability then you wouldn't be misrepresenting my words.

Anyway, moving on the dentist abroad thread, I believe there is a website which gives recommendation on dentists in Europe. Hopefully this will take the uncertainty out of choosing a dentist without the bickering of a certain dentist on this thread who is obviously looking after his self interest.

Undisputedtruth

Do you have a link; the ones I have seen seem to be nothing more than biased advertising. Any links to forums where there are German and Austrian users? There seems to be little feedback from UK users.

[Toothsmith]

I'm not so naive that this means no more dentistry; please give me more credit than that :mad:

I did! That's why I said 'A lot of people' If I'd have meant you, I would have said you!

But I am shocked that you suggest that you consider the level of professionalism of dentistry in the UK is the same as the "trades". I think we have all heard of cowboy plumbers.....

I said :-

And there are unaccredited organisations for many trades & professions in many countries. UK dentistry is by no means alone in that one!!

Which doesn't really mean what you are suggesting there, does it?




How do YOU assess the competancy of a new dentist. Let him carry out a couple of grand worth of work before deciding (somehow) he's any good?

This is indeed a tricky one.

I have described what I consider the best way to find a decent dentist in several previous posts.

1. Go by recommendation.

2. Visit the practice before booking an appointment. Ask questions - cross infection control, prices, preventative philosophy. Get a feel for how relaxed or rushed the place is. Do the prices reflect the time spent with the patients? A decent practice will be happy to answer questions and even show you round.

3. If you do the first bits, things should be fine, but when it comes time for the initial appointment, make sure a full explaination of all the treatment is given, with alternatives if necessary. It is rare that only one pathway is correct. If you can't afford a particular option straight away, see if something can be done to 'put you on' until you can afford it. A costed estimate including alternatives should also be given to you.

Bear in mind though that it is perfectly possible for a technically bad dentist to have exellent communication skills, and vice versa! So it's still a bit of a gamble. Gut feeling is often reliable though.

For you SAZ, I think a 17 year relationship with what sounds to me like a very good dentist is worth much much more than a few quid saved by jumping into the unknown. If you've been going to this guy for that long and still don't really trust him, then something is wrong somewhere!

The above suggestions for finding a new dentist would apply wherever in the world you decide to go next though.

Hope it's helpful.

[Toothsmith]

He had no problem taking over from my previous dentist; you seem to suggest one dentist is incapable of maintaining the results of another's "work". I don't buy that.



Sorry, just spotted this bit.

No - I didn't really mean that.

Patients with quite straight forward treatment needs should really have no problems.

The sort of person who appears in these 'advertorials' though are generally talking about several thousand pounds worth of complex treatment.

This needs a lot more care and attention. If they are prepared to go back to the original dentist to have it looked after, even when that becomes uneconomic, then that is fine. Alternatively, they could find a good dentist in this country who would understand what is going on and get it looked after there. Although this would also committ them to spending more on their teeth than they ever had before.

The thing that disturbs me about the sort of people featured in these adverts is that they seem to fit the pattern of someone who has neglected their teeth for years, decided to have them fixed in the best possible way, got some huge quote from the UK, and found a cheaper place abroad.

There is no mention of having to change behaviour in order to look after this work. It is presented like a quick fix. There are people to whom this will appeal, and they will go into it without any further research, and they will be worse off because of it.

For people who really can't be bothered with dentists, a plastic denture is the best treatment. This can be done for much less than £30 000 at any UK dentist, and needs very little committment to further care.

People like you SAZ who use their brain and do the work and realise the implications may well get away with it.

Personally, I would prefer to have it done closer to home if I needed such work doing. As I've said before though, it's everyone's own choice.

[candyman67]

Last year I went to Hungary, firstly for pleasure, but with the idea of going to the dentist tagged on.
Due to the fact that, other than an emergency extraction, I'd not seen a dentist for about 10 years, I expected a lot of work needed. So I booked in for a check up first.

After a good polish, and a chat about the general work required, I checked their pricing and decided to go for a bit of cosmetic work along with the necessary.
I had a molar missing (that was the extraction)
A rotten stump where the crown went rotten around the screw and fell off (NHS).
I wanted my metal fillings replaced with that white stuff. (Too many sweets as a kid)
And generally a tidy up.

So, I had................................At conversion rate at that time

Panoramic Xray.....................................£12.78
Xray.............................................. .....£4.30
Metal ceramic crowns 9 pieces................£572.50
Anesthetics 10 ampules.........................£17.37
Fillings MOD (replaced metal with white)....£251.81
Radix extraction (Remove a rotten stump).£21.39
Tooth cleaning, inc polish.......................£26.95
Temporary crowns................................£91.25
Filling occlusodist...(what was that?)........£36.67

A total of £1035.02
The standard was great. Professionalism fantastic, and I made the booking from England by phone without any introduction.

This was done over 3 occasions, by my choice. I wanted to visit the country a few times, so I spaced it out, and I am more than happy with the result. It was pay by cash, but credit cards are still a new concept over there. A full receipt, in English was given.

Yes it is a bit of a trek over there, but the work here would have cost at least £2500.
The flights were £80 with BA. Even cheaper because of airmiles.
The saving fully paid for my holidays there, and in fact I'm looking at going back out to have my eyes done. Obviously at an eye clinic!!!! Their price for the best treatment, Ultra-lasek, is the same price as the most basic treatment here.

Would I recommend family and friends to go? Too damn right I would.

I have the dentist details if anyone wants them

[Undisputedtruth]

Actually, I am perfectly realistic in my expectations. I have 3 areas of work that need attanding to:
1. A missing upper premolar. Recently extracted. Teeth either side are prefectly sound. Estimated cost here: £2300-2800. An implant I presume is a fairly standard technique; the parts/systems used are one of about half a dozen different brands.


Would you believe that the cost of making a Titanium implant is in the region of £7 to £10 but the manufacturers
sells them to Dentist for around £300. Then the Dentists charge for the cost of treatment, implants, crowns and x-rays for £2500. A huge mark up by anyone standards.

Undisputedtruth

[Toothsmith]

Last year I went to Hungary, firstly for pleasure, but with the idea of going to the dentist tagged on................................................ ........



More travel agents methinks :mad:

[Toothsmith]

Would you believe that the cost of making a Titanium implant is in the region of £7 to £10 but the manufacturers
sells them to Dentist for around £300. Then the Dentists charge for the cost of treatment, implants, crowns and x-rays for £2500. A huge mark up by anyone standards.

Undisputedtruth

Are you aware of the costs involved in becoming proficient in placing them UDB?

Do you realise the surgeons who do become proficient in bone grafting and techniques such as sinus lifts?

I'm sure you are far to informed to believe any old Thomas Richard or Henry can do it.

How much do you think an ordinary dentist like me would have to shell out before feeling confident enough to drill a bit of titanium into someones skull?

The costs are the same for the Eastern Bloc dentists, it's just their running costs are so much lower that they can recoup the costs of training more easily.


EDIT - just noticed, you quoted the cost price of just the implant, but the full price of implant + crown.

Just the surgery bit to have the implant put in is about £1200.

BTW do you know the cost of a breast shaped bag of saline by any chance? I bet there's a huge profit in that too!

[candyman67]

Toothsmith - Would you be so kind as to offer your email address, then I could forward you a copy of the receipt. It is dated 24 May 2005. Hardly a travel agent service!

Having just joined here, I'm not aware of anybody's credentials, nor am I in a position to cast dispersions against another. However it also means that you are not in a position to judge me.

Just as a quick judgement, I assume from your name that you are representive of the UK denstistry. Perhaps that is why you wish to shut down the concept of people travelling for what is ultimately a better service.
Even if the service is to at least the same standard, which I fully believe it is, the price is dramatically less. So therefore the service is better.

For the information of all, the dentist I visited is called Profident. Their address is Fogaszati Centrum, 1075 Budapest, Karoly Krt. 1
Phone number 0036 1268 1097.

Now....
You've got the dentist details.
I've told you who offers a good flight to get you there.
I've told you how to get that flight cheaper,
And I've neither asked for, nor require any payment of any description.
How the hell does that make me a travel agent?
If every newbie is greeted with that attitude, it's surprising this site still exists!

Screw you Toothsmith!

[Toothsmith]

Just such a coincidence that you appear at a time when this sort of thing is being heavily marketed in this country, and at least 2 other spams have appeard on this site.

I'm sure we will all be enriched with your eloquance in the months to come.

Welcome!

[candyman67]

"Just such a coincidence that you appear at a time when this sort of thing is being heavily marketed in this country, and at least 2 other spams have appeard on this site."

Heavy marketing at 2105hrs on a Thursday?
This has been marketed for a while. Proof of which is the fact that I was easily able to obtain the necessary info to make the decision over a year ago.
Are we to assume that as and when I get my eyes successfully done that the offering of my relevant experience will again be seen as nothing but a mere marketing ploy? But if it was to go wrong then that's OK?

I'm sure there are several members of the UK dentistry who read, and hopefully subscribe to this site, and reviewing a few of your posts, I assume (what the heck, it seems to be the thing to do!) that you are a full member of said profession. Should that be the case, then I take my hat off to you. But it merely makes you a dentist, not judge and jury.

If you and your associates were to dismiss, on a regular basis, the notion of travelling to the distant shores for treatments would that not be perceived by others as being a case of sour grapes? It would seem not, but however 3 cases offered in defense of foreign treatment is somehow seen as a collusion against the UK industry. If the other 2 were obvious spam, then they should have been dismissed without thought.

candyman67 on this site = "A Very Nice Man" on SayNoTo0870
Just so you can check my validity.

My eloquance can go from the gutter to the Hilton, dependant upon the communication.

And whenever I'm in the wrong, I have the appropriate dangly bits to be able to hold my hand up and apologise.

I don't see your hand.

[Undisputedtruth]

Are you aware of the costs involved in becoming proficient in placing them UDB?

Hmmm, Toothsmith not able to justify the high cost of dental implant treatment.

Do you realise the surgeons who do become proficient in bone grafting and techniques such as sinus lifts?

Hmmm, Toothsmith not able to justify the high cost of dental implant treatment again. No facts or figures.

I'm sure you are far to informed to believe any old Thomas Richard or Henry can do it.

Do you have evidence that I think that any old Thomas Richard Henry or Toothsmith can do it? Let me answer this for you....NO, so carry on making up my mythical opinions.

How much do you think an ordinary dentist like me would have to shell out before feeling confident enough to drill a bit of titanium into someones skull?

Correct, ordinary dentist feeling threatened by competition
from abroad.

The costs are the same for the Eastern Bloc dentists, it's just their running costs are so much lower that they can recoup the costs of training more easily.

Apparently not. The cost of implants varies according to country.

EDIT - just noticed, you quoted the cost price of just the implant, but the full price of implant + crown.

Just the surgery bit to have the implant put in is about £1200.

Again, you're unable to justify the 1500% mark up.

BTW do you know the cost of a breast shaped bag of saline by any chance? I bet there's a huge profit in that too!

Probably not as much as the mark up in dental implants.

Undisputedtruth

[Toothsmith]

Last year I went to Hungary, firstly for pleasure, but with the idea of going to the dentist tagged on.
Due to the fact that, other than an emergency extraction, I'd not seen a dentist for about 10 years, I expected a lot of work needed. So I booked in for a check up first.



I am glad you are happy with your teatment.

I am not against anyone going anywhere for dental treatment, it is your choice. I am merely pointing out the pitfalls that are not always mentioned in the press releases that advertise such treatments. These centre around continuity of care.

Now that you have your new smile, could you let me know how your behaviour and attitude towards you teeth has changed?

Has the treatment been reviewed by anybody, either where it was done or here? Has your diet changed in any way to protect your new smile? Do you now intend to make regular visits to a dentist (Anywhere) for regular check ups?

[Toothsmith]

Again, you're unable to justify the 1500% mark up.


Undisputedtruth

This is so mind numbingly ignorant that it must be a wind up!

Of course I can't show you a 'price' for training - it's a career pathway. There is no one way of doing it. How can you quantify everything involved?

To be able to place implants in simple cases either a UK based course at one of the teaching hospitals, probably on a day release basis, usually once a month over a couple of years, would be necessary. Alternatively, one could go on a couple of week course in either Scandenavia or the U.S (Depending on which system the dentist chose to use). The cost of this would be in the 10s of thousands, plus the time off from the surgery, plus all the tools that go with placing the things, and an implant kit.

Also, if it is important to a surgeon that his implants last a decent length of time, a good working knowledge of occlusion and the forces involved is necessary. This is a different bunch of courses, although the better implant courses include this aspect.

Moving onto the more complex cases will require more time off from the day job to study the anatomy, and the surgical skills necessary for the operations I mentioned. Again, there are many ways to go about this, but none are cheap.

By the time somone becomes proficient case assessment, treatment planning, surgery and the prosthetic build up that follows, the best part of £150 000 could easily have been spent.

[Inspiron]

Well said Toothsmith, couldnt have put it better myself.

The amount of investment ( time and money ) it takes us to be well trained dental surgeons i think we should be able to charge 10x what we do.

I have been only out of uni for a few years and post grad education has cost me approx 50k if u also take into acc time off work.

Then people complain that we charge what we do for out skills !

A course of cancer supressent drug that has been in press recently costs under 5p per capsule. Yet drug companies are charging over £20,000 for a years supply. WHY ? Because of all the years it has taken to produce that drug ? Food for thought

[Teerah]

So, I had................................At conversion rate at that time

Panoramic Xray.....................................£12.78
Xray.............................................. .....£4.30
Metal ceramic crowns 9 pieces................£572.50
Anesthetics 10 ampules.........................£17.37
Fillings MOD (replaced metal with white)....£251.81
Radix extraction (Remove a rotten stump).£21.39
Tooth cleaning, inc polish.......................£26.95
Temporary crowns................................£91.25
Filling occlusodist...(what was that?)........£36.67

A total of £1035.02
The standard was great. Professionalism fantastic, and I made the booking from England by phone without any introduction.

This was done over 3 occasions, by my choice.

How many fillings did you have replaced? Apart from your crowns the other treatment costs are on a par with NHS prices here. Thats a hell of a lot of work to have done in threee visits after not having been to a dentist for ten years! Must have been fun. As far as saying that the standard was great I'm afraid unless you have had this verified by another dental professional then this can only be assumed on your part. People usually judge their treatment on their experience of pain and how they were made to feel during treatment so unless something gos wrong, it is impossible for you to say whether or not the standard actually was great from a clinical point of view.

[Undisputedtruth]

This is so mind numbingly ignorant that it must be a wind up!

If I was truly mind numingly ignorant then I would believe your over exagerated spiel.

Misrepresenting people's words and over exagerating comments without supplying full facts or figures does no favours to your credibility.

By the time somone becomes proficient case assessment, treatment planning, surgery and the prosthetic build up that follows, the best part of £150 000 could easily have been spent.

Even if the the figure was true it still does not justify the 3700% mark up fee on the implant alone.

The amount of investment ( time and money ) it takes us to be well trained dental surgeons i think we should be able to charge 10x what we do.

Yeah right £25,000 for an implant! Affordable treatment for the patient is not on your agenda despite the fact he or she may have contributed to your education as a tax payer.

I have been only out of uni for a few years and post grad education has cost me approx 50k if u also take into acc time off work.

Then people complain that we charge what we do for out skills !

How much would the debts be if you don't take into account time off work as you were a student? I would imagine the difference will probably be living costs, student fees and beer money!

The only way people will stop complaining about how much dentists charges is when more and more people realise that they can cut costs by flying over to countries such as Hungary. Then the UK dentists will have to end their greed as well as their monopoly and compete on the free market.

Undisputedtruth

[Toothsmith]

Again, you're unable to justify the 1500% mark up.







Even if the the figure was true it still does not justify the 3700% mark up fee on the implant alone.




Make your mind up!

Any advance on 3700%? :rotfl:

[Pennywise]

Alternatively, one could go on a couple of week course in either Scandenavia or the U.S (Depending on which system the dentist chose to use). The cost of this would be in the 10s of thousands

Just wondering, if the training costs are so prohibitively high, how can the dentists from the "cheaper" countries afford the courses and then go on to charge so little for the treatment compared with UK dentists. Are you saying they don't go on the same courses in Scandanavia or US to learn the skills or are they charged less?

[Teerah]

Education has many standards and thus different costs. In addition, cost of living varies in different countries, therefore the same dentists' charges that are being exhalted here may be seen as equally prohibitively expensive in other countries.

[Teerah]

How much would the debts be if you don't take into account time off work as you were a student? I would imagine the difference will probably be living costs, student fees and beer money! Undisputedtruth

But inspiron states the education was post grad, therefore he was taking time off work to further his/her education. :confused:

The only way people will stop complaining about how much dentists charges is when more and more people realise that they can cut costs by flying over to countries such as Hungary. Then the UK dentists will have to end their greed as well as their monopoly and compete on the free market.

Undisputedtruth

Hmmm... highly unlikely. Dont you think the cheapest option is actually to look after your teeth in the first place? ;)

[millie]

The only way people will stop complaining about how much dentists charges is when more and more people realise that they can cut costs by flying over to countries such as Hungary. Then the UK dentists will have to end their greed as well as their monopoly and compete on the free market.

Undisputedtruth[/QUOTE]


Here Here I agree with you wholeheartedly

[Toothsmith]

Here Here I agree with you wholeheartedly


Go for it then Millie!

[Inspiron]

Thanks Teerah...yup i said post grad so thats been all after uni...

The manufacturing companies bomb us with ridiculously high prices ie..implant components, which in other european countries are 1/10th of the price (seriously).....we also cannot import stocks from europe so we have to use uk suppliers...we obviously pass that charge on to our patients and we also need to cover overheads and make a profit.

Prices in europe would thus naturally be very much cheaper.

Think of it as an invesment and not a cost. If the work is done properly it will last many many years.

[Toothsmith]

Education has many standards and thus different costs. In addition, cost of living varies in different countries, therefore the same dentists' charges that are being exhalted here may be seen as equally prohibitively expensive in other countries.


This is a good point.

I wonder how many locals the English dental tourist is likely to encounter in the waiting room?

Just think, in Hungary, on a chat forum, there could well be a Hungarian Undisputedboll**s bemoaning the incredible mark ups of Hungarian dentists.

"How can they justify such prices when they pay their nurses 2 sceckles a month?"

The answer, of course is that there are plenty of people all across the richer parts of Europe for whom cost is the be all and end all. So long as they get something that looks good on the day and the price is right, boring little details like 'looking after it' don't really matter.

Nor does the environmental cost of the trip, and what the heck if all the Hungarian dentists are pandering to their needs rather than the Hungarians?

So, as long as a British tightwad can get a new set of shiny teeth, when too much Coke & chocolate knackered their first set, who cares about a local population?

And just because a 2 week holiday isn't enough to bring about a habit change enough for that new work to stand a chance of lasting more than a few years - what the heck? They're only teeth!

Go to Hungary, Poland, India, wherever you like. Get a nice new shiny smile for next to nothing if that's what you want. You will get exactly what you pay for.

When you want dental CARE, we'll still be here. Thankfully, there are enough people who know the difference.

[Undisputedtruth]

Go for it then Millie!

Toothsmith, your credibility is even getting lower.

Millie was actually agreeing with me about UK dentist ending their greed and monopoly on the UK market. See post 38.

Undisputed

[Undisputedtruth]

But inspiron states the education was post grad, therefore he was taking time off work to further his/her education. :confused:

Basically was trying to gain sympathy by stating a large figure through loss of earnings. Perhaps he should mention how much money he has made or make by attending a post graduate course.

Hmmm... highly unlikely. Dont you think the cheapest option is actually to look after your teeth in the first place? ;)

I agree with the cheapest option is to look after your teeth but there could be circumstances beyond your control on losing your teeth. For example losing a tooth through a fight, falling down on the ground, etc. I'm sure you're able to understand that. I've posted my comments about the cheapest option as this thread is about treatment in Hungary and not how to look after your teeth. I hope you understand that.

Undisputedtruth

[Undisputedtruth]

This is a good point.

I wonder how many locals the English dental tourist is likely to encounter in the waiting room?

Just think, in Hungary, on a chat forum, there could well be a Hungarian Undisputedboll**s bemoaning the incredible mark ups of Hungarian dentists.

"How can they justify such prices when they pay their nurses 2 sceckles a month?"

The answer, of course is that there are plenty of people all across the richer parts of Europe for whom cost is the be all and end all. So long as they get something that looks good on the day and the price is right, boring little details like 'looking after it' don't really matter.

Nor does the environmental cost of the trip, and what the heck if all the Hungarian dentists are pandering to their needs rather than the Hungarians?

So, as long as a British tightwad can get a new set of shiny teeth, when too much Coke & chocolate knackered their first set, who cares about a local population?

And just because a 2 week holiday isn't enough to bring about a habit change enough for that new work to stand a chance of lasting more than a few years - what the heck? They're only teeth!

Go to Hungary, Poland, India, wherever you like. Get a nice new shiny smile for next to nothing if that's what you want. You will get exactly what you pay for.

When you want dental CARE, we'll still be here. Thankfully, there are enough people who know the difference.


Dental implants are more expensive in the UK then in the United States.

Indeed there will be Dentists in the UK for the normal dental care. But at least the patient has a choice of flying abroad or risk getting ripped off by greedy dentists in the UK.

Undisputedtruth

[tomstickland]

Personally I want to build a long term relationship with my dentist, so flying off elswhere for cheap treatment doesn't appeal to me at all.

[Undisputedtruth]

Personally I want to build a long term relationship with my dentist, so flying off elswhere for cheap treatment doesn't appeal to me at all.

Fine, some people would do both and get the best of each world. Thus saving some money from greedy dentists.

Undisputedtruth

[Toothsmith]

Toothsmith, your credibility is even getting lower.

Millie was actually agreeing with me about UK dentist ending their greed and monopoly on the UK market. See post 38.

Undisputed


So Irony can be added to the list of things lost on you UDB.

Along with

Evidence bases
Buisness economics
Sustainable development
Career development
Healthcare economics
Reasoned argument
The truth
..........................................

[Teerah]

I agree with the cheapest option is to look after your teeth but there could be circumstances beyond your control on losing your teeth. For example losing a tooth through a fight, falling down on the ground, etc. I'm sure you're able to understand that. I've posted my comments about the cheapest option as this thread is about treatment in Hungary and not how to look after your teeth. I hope you understand that.

Undisputedtruth

Of course there may be circumstances beyond a persons control which may lead to tooth loss. As a dentist I fully understand that, but as a dentist I can assure you that this is not the most common means by which a tooth is lost. As this site is about moneysaving , I feel I am justified in saying that looking after teeth in the first place is the cheapest option. If teeth are lost in an accident of some sort, there will usually be compensation available which will pay for the treatment in the UK. Therefore other tooth loss which incurs large bills can be preventable. I hope you understand that.

[Undisputedtruth]

So Irony can be added to the list of things lost on you UDB.

Along with

Evidence bases
Buisness economics
Sustainable development
Career development
Healthcare economics
Reasoned argument
The truth
..........................................

Toothsmith, you can use as many terms as you wish but they do not disguise greediness in my books.

Of course there may be circumstances beyond a persons control which may lead to tooth loss. As a dentist I fully understand that, but as a dentist I can assure you that this is not the most common means by which a tooth is lost. As this site is about moneysaving , I feel I am justified in saying that looking after teeth in the first place is the cheapest option. If teeth are lost in an accident of some sort, there will usually be compensation available which will pay for the treatment in the UK. Therefore other tooth loss which incurs large bills can be preventable. I hope you understand that.

Yes I do understand and if you read my post properly you will find it covered the points you are making above. So I refer you to my earlier comments on this matter.

Undisputedtruth

[Toothsmith]

Toothsmith, you can use as many terms as you wish but they do not disguise greediness in my books.

Undisputedtruth

Are your books nicely coloured in? Or aren't you allowed pointy things? :dance:

[Teerah]

Yes I do understand and if you read my post properly you will find it covered the points you are making above. So I refer you to my earlier comments on this matter.

Undisputedtruth

If you had understood and agreed with what I had said there would have been no need for your earlier comment. Because you commented on what I had written, I assumed you did not understand why I had made the point on this thread so I felt it necessary to explain more fully so that I could clarify matters for you. I do not wish to drag this thread further off topic however with petty arguments so will not be dragged into this further. Thanks.

[Undisputedtruth]

If you had understood and agreed with what I had said there would have been no need for your earlier comment. Because you commented on what I had written, I assumed you did not understand why I had made the point on this thread so I felt it necessary to explain more fully so that I could clarify matters for you. I do not wish to drag this thread further off topic however with petty arguments so will not be dragged into this further. Thanks.

As I said before the thread is about dentists in Hungary and other places. My comments were made in relation to this but your comments were completely incongruent to the whole thread. If you want to discuss the issue of preventative Dentistry then by all means start a new thread rather than dragging this thread further off topic. My advice to you would be to read my posts carefully and understand the essence of the thread to avoid future conflict. I hope this make sense to you. If not, please give me a shout and I'll give you a more simple explanation.

Undisputedtruth

[Teerah]

Hi undisputed truth, you do provide some light relief. However, please follow you own advice, ie carefully reading posts. I have clearly explained why I made the comment and you may continue to show your ignorance by choosing to ignore anything that you do not personally agree with. That is up to you. Your reply infers that travel to hungary and such places is mostly due to trauma and this is, of course, a nonsense and I think you realise that or you would not continue to ignore what I have said. I am not sure what you hope to achieve by continuing with this. And yes I have replied to this again but only so other readers may understand why I have posted previously (although it was self-explanatory). Regards, teerah

[Toothsmith]

As I said before the thread is about dentists in Hungary and other places. My comments were made in relation to this but your comments were completely incongruent to the whole thread. If you want to discuss the issue of preventative Dentistry then by all means start a new thread rather than dragging this thread further off topic. My advice to you would be to read my posts carefully and understand the essence of the thread to avoid future conflict. I hope this make sense to you. If not, please give me a shout and I'll give you a more simple explanation.

Undisputedtruth

At last it seems to be sinking in with you that going to Hungary, or anywhere abroad for a major rebuild has nothing to do with preventative dentistry. It also seems to have got through to you from the earlier quote, below, that the cheapest option is to look after your teeth. This is best achieved by enrolling as a patient with a convenient dentist who subscribes to the principals of preventative dentistry - wherever in the world that may be.

I agree with the cheapest option is to look after your teeth but there could be circumstances beyond your control on losing your teeth. For example losing a tooth through a fight, falling down on the ground, etc. I'm sure you're able to understand that. I've posted my comments about the cheapest option as this thread is about treatment in Hungary and not how to look after your teeth. I hope you understand that.

Undisputedtruth

The subject of preventative dentistry is absolutely key here though, it is not a side issue at all.

As I have said before, and seems to be backed up by Candyman67's silence now, the vast majority of people to whom this idea will appeal are those who have neglected their teeth for years and have built up a huge backlog of work.

A person with galloping gobrot getting a quote for (let's say) £20000 worth of cosmetic rebuilding, and then going abroad and getting it done for £3000 are not saving £17000. They are wasting £3000.

It is like putting lipstick on a pig! Difficult, expensive, fraught with danger, and ultimately pointless!

Unless the process that got them into that state in the first place is addressed, then nomatter how well the treatment is done, it will fail.

The principals of good treatment planning are the same the world over.

Get the patient out of pain
Remove anything that can't be saved.
Treat & stabilise the disease process.

This first bit should be ALL that happens in the first phase of treatment. During that phase, advice and education should enable the patient to understand why their mouth has got into that state, and how they can avoid it happening in the future.

Over the next few months to years, the situation should be maintained and stabilised.

ONLY when the patient has demonstrated a pattern of improved attendance, care and motivation should anything more advanced be undertaken.

Doing more advanced stuff on people who are not ready for it is not only going on abroad. It also happens in this country, and is even televised in such programs as '10 Years Younger'. At least in this country though, there is no excuse for the patient not to go regularly, and by paying a more realistic amount of money for the treatment, a patient is more likely to value it and look after it. (It still shouldn't happen though - in my opinion.)

saz9961, the OP does have a sensible attitude towards getting work done abroad, and appeared to understand the implications of it all. Provided nothing unexpected goes wrong during the treatment, which could get very expensive he could easily come out of it with some good dentistry. The more typical 'client' which these clinics target though, are types like Candyman67 and for them, it is completely inappropriate.

I am happy to keep this debate going on as long as UDB is willing to play the fool. Like the medieval jester, he does bring up some valid points and is not afraid to look completely stupid. The world needs his type.

[candyman67]

The reason for my silence was that I had said my bit, and it was for you to think about it and form your own opinion. That's the reason for forums like this.

The 10 year neglect of my teeth was indeed my fault, however, as a few are pointing out, a long term relationship with a dentist is for the better. However, having moved a few times in those 10 years, including a 60 mile relocation, long term was not an option.

The amount of fillings that I originally had was due to an over indulgence in my youth. The original (broken)crown was necessary due to an accident. The 2 crowns above were done at the same time. Same accident. They're still there and I'm happy.

It needs to be pointed out that when I had the emergency molar extraction, the dentist at that time, English by birth and English trained, had a look around my mouth, and with the exception of the rotten stump at the front, could find nothing else necessary.
Even the removal of the stump, which was a crown gone wrong, done by an English trained dentist, practising here, was not necessary. It just didn't look good, therefore it was cosmetic. I had the extraction, a polish and then away. That was just over £50 for 25 mins work.
REMEMBER, HE FOUND NOTHING ELSE WRONG, AND HE IS ON PIECE RATE!

As I didn't need the stump removed, the molar replaced, or more importantly any other fillings or work, I would say that those 10 years of not visiting the dentist were justified. Perhaps I was the lucky one, or maybe my routine got better. I still only brush once, at the end of the day, so the change must be diet.

The reason for deciding to get all the bridge work etc was purely for vanity / cosmetic reasons. What the heck, I'm late 30s so time to start preserving the looks. It's all downhill from here otherwise!

I figured if I'm going to go the cosmetic route, then I may as well go all the way. So I did a check with same dentist that did the extraction, and to replace the 7 metal fillings with white, remove the stump, do a 4 piece bridge for the front and a 5 piece for the left, would have cost in excess of £2500. Far too much just to maintain my stunning good looks. As you can read from my first postings. I was able to get all the work done for just over £1000 in Hungary. If you add the 3 flights (I did say I split it by choice) at £80 each, it brings it to about £1300. I could have had it done in one trip over a week, but I'm seeing somebody from there, so it gave me something to do while they were at work, and I just had a little done on each occasion.

My brushing regime has not changed, still once a day, with the occasional mouthwash or extra brush if I'm going out. The only thing that has differed is the further lowering of my sugar intake. But that has as much to do with health as it does with the maintenance of my teeth.

Another concern for some of our citizens is the fact that "Big Brother" has yet another way to keep tabs on us. How often do we here that a body could only be identified by dental records? Where are these records held? How did they know where to start? What is the legal obligation of our dentistry to update those records? Another reason, for some, to use a foreign service. I've screwed them up now with my new mouth!
Got any answers anyone?

Putting aside your strange past-time of trying to put make up on a pig (just how do you know how difficult it is?) Could I suggest that next time you take a visit to a foreign shore, and let's be honest, at your rates that must be at least 3 times a year, why not pop in to a clinic there. All it needs is just a check up or a polish, nothing serious, just so you can judge for yourself their professionalism.
I often assess other driver's skills and standards in the passenger industry, both here and abroad, against mine, just to make sure that I am delivering a high level of service to my clients. Come down from your celestial throne and join us mere mortals, if nothing else, you could then justify your position.

But with regards to the arrogent attitude of a previous poster that you should be able to charge 10 times the current amount.......... £500 to have a tooth pulled. That would have resulted in another set of teeth being broken.

[Teerah]

Another concern for some of our citizens is the fact that "Big Brother" has yet another way to keep tabs on us. How often do we here that a body could only be identified by dental records? Where are these records held? How did they know where to start? What is the legal obligation of our dentistry to update those records? Another reason, for some, to use a foreign service. I've screwed them up now with my new mouth!
Got any answers anyone?



These records are just the dental records held at dental practices, there is no national register. As far as knowing where to start, basically the body has already been given a possible identification, this is then confirmed or disproved by checking the dental records. It would be impossible to identify somebody solely from dental records without having other information to go on. Not really a reason to use a foreign service though unless you intend to be found at the bottom of a lake/in a fire/otherwise mutilated. (and yes I know your comment in relation to this was tongue in cheek)

[Toothsmith]

Thak you Candyman, for stepping back into the ring to confirm my suspicions.

I have seen some technically very bad crowns that have caused no problem whatsoever inside some patient's mouths. I have seen excellent crowns rot away into mush.

The difference? How the patients look after them.

Your 'Stump at the front' was caused by a 'crown that went wrong' because you didn't look after it properly. The edge of a crown is always a weak spot where decay can start off much more easily than on a healthy tooth. Had you been to a dentist more frequently, the initial decay might well have been spotted before it became a stump.

You don't explain why the molar had broken, but they don't just break for no reason.

What have you now had done?

Loads more crown units put on - which will have disturbed previously healthy teeth. Created a load more food traps around your mouth and sites for decay to start. Replaced perfectly good metal fillings with a material which is much more prone to get decay at it's edges. And you still are no wiser as to why it all went wrong in the first place.

And that's money well spent?

You will probably be fine for the next 5 years. Assuming the work is of high quality.

Unless something radical changes in your self-care though, and you actually start visiting a dentist for routine maintenance, all you have achieved is to bring forward the date you will need full dentures by about 20 years.

There's value for money.

[Undisputedtruth]

Hi undisputed truth, you do provide some light relief. However, please follow you own advice, ie carefully reading posts. I have clearly explained why I made the comment and you may continue to show your ignorance by choosing to ignore anything that you do not personally agree with. That is up to you. Your reply infers that travel to hungary and such places is mostly due to trauma and this is, of course, a nonsense and I think you realise that or you would not continue to ignore what I have said. I am not sure what you hope to achieve by continuing with this. And yes I have replied to this again but only so other readers may understand why I have posted previously (although it was self-explanatory). Regards, teerah


I think I've given you an answer before so can't be bothered to stoop down to your level.

Best wishes

Undisputedtruth

[Undisputedtruth]

Could I suggest that next time you take a visit to a foreign shore, and let's be honest, at your rates that must be at least 3 times a year, why not pop in to a clinic there. All it needs is just a check up or a polish, nothing serious, just so you can judge for yourself their professionalism.

Interesting comment, as Teerah and Toothsmith are busy fighting for their market share and let's face their comments do have an hint of desparation then it might be sensible option to visit Hungary to see what they have on offer whilst ensuring that you take preventative measures with Dentists in the UK or abroad.

But with regards to the arrogent attitude of a previous poster that you should be able to charge 10 times the current amount.......... £500 to have a tooth pulled. That would have resulted in another set of teeth being broken.

I can't seem to trust the Dentist on this thread due their arrogance. Corporate greed and arrogance seems to go side by side with them.

Undisputedtruth

[Kickstone]

I was wondering if any body else has any details of Dentists in Hungary and a quick review if possible. I'm looking to go there quite soon as I don't think I've been that lucky with my teeth. I'm 32 and I've now had three teeth extracted, along with a six crowns and a bridge. The crowns are fine but I am thinking of getting three implants to fill the gaps. Was wondering if any body could give me some advice on where to go. The one I have been looking at is http://www.dentistabroad.co.uk/index.html. Thanks for the details candyman, I'll check that one out.
Please don't respond to my post Toothsmith.

[Toothsmith]

Please don't respond to my post Toothsmith.

Why's that then? Am I making people think a bit too much before parting with their cash and damaging your travel agency?

Interesting how many first posters on this thread seem to insert links to commercial organisations. I wonder how many are the same person with multiple registrations?

As I don't do implants, and tend to go more for preventative care, it's also quite nice to have UDB recommending my services.

It was a full moon last night though!

[Kickstone]

Why's that then? Am I making people think a bit too much before parting with their cash and damaging your travel agency?
No, you just come across as smug, arrogant and a bit of a scaremonger. I could go into my personal views why I believe you are like this but I really don’t have the patience for a petty little argument on a notice board. I’ve come here for advice and I don’t think you have any to give, even in your professional position. You've only gone and reinforced this by assuming I run some medical travel agency, as you have done with a lot of what seem genuine people on here.
My teeth are in a bad way and I do not have the money to get the treatment done over here. I will be going over to Hungary because I have no other option. I am therefore looking for advice on who to visit. I doubt you have ever been so there really isn't much you can add, other than silly remarks which aren't beneficial to anyone.
I’ll ask again, please do not respond to my post. This post is to help people and all you are accomplishing is scaring people away from posting due to fear of being ridiculed.
Any advice from anyone who has been over to Hungary would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Toothsmith]

All I have really said is that if a mouth has fallen to bits, it's a bit pointless spending money on rebuilding it unless you realise why it has fallen to bits.

As treatments get more complex, the potential for real problems when it goes wrong gets greater.

All the Foreign clinics advertising for British clients just offer to rebuild mouths. Not address any of the problems that got the mouths there in the first place.

It is your money. It is your mouth.

I'm sure all the clinics are technically excellent, and are staffed by dentists for whom making money is the very last thing they want to do.

Take my advice or leave it. It is given with good grace. I do not benefit financially one way or the other.

[Kickstone]

I didn't say you would benefit, you just seem very negative about the whole idea. You are entitled to your opinion but you don't seem to be giving a valid argument. I agree that people should know why their mouth is falling apart. But most people aren't idiots. I know where I went wrong. I have addressed these issues but I now need to fix the problems which I admit I brought upon myself. The simple fact is I am losing teeth at a fast rate and it's either implants or dentures in the years to come. Preventative measures are no good to me now, trust me. I do everything I can to keep my teeth in good health due to a very strong sense of foreboding. I do need this work carrying out though if I wish to smile on pictures or laugh when I'm out with friends without feeling embarrassed.
I also think I am aware of the risks involved in such a complex procedure due to the locality but that's exactly why I'm on this forum asking questions. It is something I have been thinking about for a long time and it is being offered at a price that I can afford in a different country. I would like as much info as possible before I go ahead with it.
Apologies for the name calling. It wasn't my intention to offend. You do seem overly negative about it though and very eager to jump to conclusions. Believe me, if you had my teeth and my bank account I'm sure you would consider it.

[camdi]

This is my first post, can anyone help, I've been told that lots of British people are going to India for dental work hundreds of pounds cheaper. My husband is in desperate need of major work & I'm wondering whether a holiday to India may be a cheaper option as it will be extremely expensive in UK.

Thanks
Camdi

[Toothsmith]

We do seem to have started on the wrong foot!

This thread does not really bring out the best in me as there is a poster who, despite his username, speaks absolute rubbish, and I have no regrets about being rude to him!

I have my own dental practice in a small market town. I went private for adults 7 years ago, and have just stopped doing NHS stuff for kids having resigned my NHS contract when the new regime came in a couple of weeks ago. I am still quite busy enough.

The UK has only ever produced enough dentists to serve about half of the population on a regular basis - but that was OK, because that is all that ever really wanted regular care. About 15 years ago, there was enough slack in the system to cope with the other 50% who only ever wanted to see a dentist when something hurt.

Over the past 10+ years, as NHS funding has dried up, more and more dentists have gone private. In doing that, they have reduced their list sizes to a core of patients who really value the service they get, and are prepared to pay for it. Much as it may surprise people who don't value good dentistry (I don't mean you Kickstone, or anyone else directly - even UDB) those people are not just 'the rich' but a whole cross section of income ranges - even those on benefits. In fact, it is often 'the rich' who are first out of the door, into their Beemers, and off down the road to another practice still doing NHS.

Over the past few months, even more dentists are doing even less NHS. This is creating a huge rift in the status-quo of UK dentistry. the patients who have stuck with their dentists are loyal, happy and not likely to move. There is now a huge pool of people who whilst not really thinking dental treatment is worth the UK private prices, believe that good dental care can be had for what was NHS prices.

What is the relavence of all that? You ask.

Into this uncertainty, over the past few months, companies marketing dental treatment abroad have come flooding in. They appeal to, and target, people who prehaps have had difficulties in obtaining treatment in the last few years, they see a huge gap in the market. People who want 'good' treatment, but don't understand enough about what good treatment actually is. They market 'good treatment' as a final commodity, not an ongoing process.

Rarely a day goes past without some local paper having an article about George & his wife Mildred, who, having been quoted several thousand pounds to have 20 years of neglect put right in the UK, had it all done, in a few visits, in a couple of weeks in some ex eastern bloc country and it only cost a couple of hundred.

These adverts, to me, a dentist, are as misleading and dangerous as the Carol Vordaman "Consolidate your loans into one easy payment, and hey - have a new car as well"

Every MSEr knows that these adverts are B***oks. You are paying back loads more over the rest of your life. But they are there because there are enough stupid/desperate people who WANT to believe life will be easier with a Purple Loan

It is 'too good to be true'.

It is just the same for all these Hungarian & Polish ads.

If your teeth are falling to bits, it is NOT too late for preventative dentistry to help. If the situation in your mouth is not stable before you start this treatment, the treatment WILL FAIL. It may take a few years, but it will. When it does, you will be worse off than before you started, it will be more expensive to fix, and your options will be much more limited with less good teeth for support.

I have conceeded in previous posts on this thread, with relation to SAZ, the OP, that in certain, very carefully considered circumstances, someone might be able to make this work for them. But the risks are high, especially in countries with very loose regulation. A plasma TV on the waiting room wall is fine. I'd want to see the cross infection control protocol though. It may be fine, but who checks up on it? Is it worth the money saved?

Do you have a UK dentist Kickstone? What is his/her suggestion for what you do?

I am sure a proper long term treatment/care plan tailored to your pocket will suit you much better in the long term.

[Nile]

Hello camdi


Welcome to the MSE site.:wave:

I'll move your thread over to the 'Health MoneySaving' board, where it should get more views and responses.

Hi, Martin’s asked me to post this in these circumstances: I’ve asked Board Guides to move threads if they’ll receive a better response elsewhere(please see this rule (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=1009335#post1009335)) so this post/thread has been moved to another board, where it should get more replies. If you have any questions about this policy please email abuse@moneysavingexpert.com (abuse@moneysavingexpert.com).

Regards

Nile

[Teerah]

If your teeth are falling to bits, it is NOT too late for preventative dentistry to help. If the situation in your mouth is not stable before you start this treatment, the treatment WILL FAIL. It may take a few years, but it will. When it does, you will be worse of than before you started. Or even if you had not had it done.



LOL I keep getting shot down for making this point :D

[Undisputedtruth]

No, you just come across as smug, arrogant and a bit of a scaremonger.


http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.html?p=1970712&postcount=62

Hi Kickstone

I definitely agree with you on this about Toothsmith and some of the other Dentists.

As Toothsmith is unable to counteract the chants of greedy dentists he has resorted to giving childish insults and inappropriate remarks. One wonders if anyone would actually choose him as their dentist. I think it is a case of what's best for Toothsmith rather than what's best for the patient.

Regards

Undisputedtruth

[Teerah]

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.html?p=1970712&postcount=62

Hi Kickstone

I definitely agree with you on this about Toothsmith and some of the other Dentists.

As Toothsmith is unable to counteract the chants of greedy dentists he has resorted to giving childish insults and inappropriate remarks. One wonders if anyone would actually choose him as their dentist. I think it is a case of what's best for Toothsmith rather than what's best for the patient.

Regards

Undisputedtruth

I thought you were keen to keep this thread on topic and set aside petty name calling? :confused: So you dont like UK dentists. Ok, ok, we get it. :rolleyes: However, UK dental health isnt brilliant so I dont think it is appropriate to put other people off by labelling us greedy. Lets move on...

[Undisputedtruth]

LOL I keep getting shot down for making this point :D

I'm afraid not. You're keep getting shot down for not reading the posts properly and then having the arrogance to think that no one should reply to your points.

Undisputedtruth

[Teerah]

I'm afraid not. You're keep getting shot down for not reading the posts properly and then having the arrogance to think that no one should reply to your points.

Undisputedtruth

And so it continues... *yawn*
LOL :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Toothsmith]

So your point UDB, is that a rotten mouth CAN be fixed by encasing the failing teeth in porcelain, and filling the spaces with implants?

This treatment is really easy to have done, never goes wrong, and hardly needs any maintenance once completed.

UK dentists are up in arms about it, because it blasts their lies that you only get good teeth from looking after them, and that involves visiting a dentist quite frequently.

Could you please point out any errors I have made in understanding you?

If this is correct, I would really love to see the science you base your opinions on.

[Undisputedtruth]

And so it continues... *yawn*
LOL :rotfl: :rotfl:

Showed yourself up yet again. A credit to your profession.
Twisting the facts to make you make yourself look good while attacking those that pose a threat. Keep up the manipulation peolpe will eventually see through you.

Undisputedtruth

[Undisputedtruth]

So your point UDB, is that a rotten mouth CAN be fixed by encasing the failing teeth in porcelain, and filling the spaces with implants?

This treatment is really easy to have done, never goes wrong, and hardly needs any maintenance once completed.

UK dentists are up in arms about it, because it blasts their lies that you only get good teeth from looking after them, and that involves visiting a dentist quite frequently.

Could you please point out any errors I have made in understanding you?

If this is correct, I would really love to see the science you base your opinions on.

Toothsmith, trying to put words into my mouth will only make you look manipulative to other people. This is in addition to the other comments people have made about you being smug, arrogant and scaremongering. If these are typical examples of dentists in this country then it goes to show how poor their service really is.

Undisputedtruth

[lola rose]

Hi

has anyone heard of VitalEurope, was thinking of going over to have dental work done. would be grateful for advice.

[Toothsmith]

Can anyone help me out. I am looking for the best dental practice in Glasgow.


could you not find one in Glasgow?

[lola rose]

Too expensive, 780.00 per crown compaired to 180.00 in prague
hsve you heard of this company?

[Toothsmith]

It won't be £780 everywhere in Glasgow. How many places did you try?

I'm not a fan of dental tourism!

Another thread (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=176670)

[lola rose]

two different dentists, infact, the first one I went to was charging 11,000 for 8 crowns and bridge work.

[j-baby-scotland]

I've a brilliant dentist here in Glasgow, been with him over twenty years.
He only takes private patients now, & pre-existing NHS ones like me (though practice still takes NHS).

I'd recommend him to anyone.
PM me for his surgery address if u want.

[Toothsmith]

When did you last visit a dentist? And how often do you usually go?

[lola rose]

I`m ashamed to say its years since I`ve been. I`ll pm you. thanks

[Toothsmith]

Then you do fit the pattern I was talking about in the other thread.

You can't make up for years of letting your teeth go with one 'big fix' in any country.

I don't recommend you go to Prague, nor do I recommend you pay £11 000 in Glasgow. Unless you can get yourself into a pattern of regular attendance I feel any big work you have done will fail, and leave you dentally and financially worse off because of it.

Go to J-Baby's dentist. Have things put straight at a reasonable cost and spend some time (not money) learning how to look after your teeth. Make looking after them more of a priority in your life, and then, when everything seems more stable, look into having something done to make them look really good.

By the time you get to that stage though, you will probably realise that £11 000 is probably worth it, and you'd want a dentist to do the job who knows you and knows your teeth well.

Hope it all works out.

[kajuco]

I've looked after my teeth over the years, but now I face the prospect of having an implant done [because a) apparently there isn't enough tooth to fix a crown to - the crown keeps slipping out - and b) I've had an abscess for about a year, it doesn't hurt, and seems to be being kept in check with homoeopathic medicines, but I dread to think how it may be destroying the root] and was considering going to Eastern Europe. It is claimed that the prices for this vary in UK, but I understand that on average it's at least £2000. I even got in touch with the Association of Dental Practices, which I was told was an association that provided good service but somewhat cheaper than most UK dentists, but was told by one of their dentists that an implant would cost about £2500. This is huge money for me. Does anyone have any advice?

[kajuco]

Hm. That's interesting about Kreativ. Because I've found several very negative references to them on another forum: http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g274887-i263-k290192-Dentist-Budapest.html
It's so difficult to know who to believe.

[Toothsmith]

What does your own dentist recommend?

[kajuco]

Well, he says I need to have the root (that's causing the abscess) extracted, and then it's up to me: I could have a bridge on the NHS, or an implant, but they're only done privately. Alternatively, I could just leave a gap, but as it's UR5, I don't think that's an option. And as I understand it, a bridge involves filing down the two teeth on either side to put a crown on them as well as a shrinking of the gum where the extracted root no longer is. Oh misery me.

[Teerah]

And as I understand it, a bridge involves filing down the two teeth on either side to put a crown on them

Not necessarily, there are different types of bridge design, you should discuss with your dentist the type he envisages having to use as it will depend on the health of the surrounding teeth and gums and also on your bite. In favourable circumstances bridge preparation can be quite minimal and conservative.

[kajuco]

Thanks, Teerah. But it was my dentist who described to me the procedure for a bridge. And in any case, I don't like the idea of the gum shrinking, be it ever so slightly, after the root is taken out. That's why I'm contemplating an implant, but, so far, the cost seems to be prohibitive. So, ideally, I'd like to hear from anyone who has had an implant in Budapest or somewhere, and that it's been a good experience. Or any other advice. Including in VitalEurope, which someone else asked about. I found their website, but personal experience is always more useful than self-promotion.

[kajuco]

That's funny. I got email notification of a reply to my last message, but there doesn't seem to be one.

[Inspiron]

especially with implants you need the after care. Will u be able to travel regulary to have it looked after.

V small % of implants fail....what will you do then. The fee of 2.5k incompasses all possibilites. Think of it as an invetment. Most practices will offer a finance package...maybe even interest free.

[goanmad]

Hi Camdi

As you can see by my name I'm a bit of a Goa addict. I'll be having some treatment in Goa later this year and all of the people who live / holiday there regularly are very happy with the standard (and cost) of dental work available.

The main tourist area in the North is Baga, Calangute and Candolim and if you avoid Xmas and New Year you can pick up a very reasonable deal.

A well known Calangute-based dentist is Dr Ambert Pimenta , he is a regular contributor on several Goa forums I belong to. Here's his website:

http://www.goadentist.com/index.htm

You'll find his site fairly comprehensive with prices and before and after photographs.

There are lots of other reputable dentists in and around Calangute. I'd recommend you check out Holiday Truths Goa forum for loads of useful tips, experiences and advice.

http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=60

Good luck xx

[Teerah]

They do seem to have randomly made up the NHS prices!

[kellyplanet]

Hi me and my partner were looking into the costs of cosmetic dentistry. WOW!!!!!!!! Not cheap!!!!

My other half was looking to have porcelain veneers and myself to get my teeth whitened.
Well the costs in the UK are mad and it seems you can save as much as 60% getting it done overseas in Budapest for example.

It seems that there are a few websites in relation to having treatment done overseas for a lot cheaper and getting a holiday in the bargain!!!!! :rotfl:

Has any MSEs had any experience of this? :confused: Is the work af good quality?

Thanks

[Inspiron]

few detailed threads on this very topic...and recent as well...just have a look.

personal advice. if you go abroad then yes you may get the treatment at a cheaper price but look long term.

You'll need good maintainance etc etc...what if there are problems etc etc... here you have the ease of seeing your dentist but will you keep travelling to europe.

You'll save 60% but may have 100% more hassle. It might all be perfect but then hey it might not.

Think of it as an investment for life...spend 60% more but atleast youll have the peace of mind thats if anything goes wrong it can be redone easily...

eg..what if for example the veneer comes off.....r u going to go to europe. I guess youll see your own dentist and then pay for that etc etc.

This is your health...and for cosmetics...wait a year if you have to and save a little more.

[quidsinquentin]

My friend in Brighton recently had several teeth knocked out during a game of football and one or two cracked/chipped. The quote for the dentist work in Britain was around £3000+.

He was out of work at the time, and had to put the costs onto plastic.

He checked on the internet and found a place in India that would do the work for about a third/half of the price, plus cheap flights and hotels. (He'd just been to India the year before for several months.) Making the total cost less than £2000 - £2500 and supposedly of a very high standard.

He went, had the preparatory work done - about 75 - 80% of total work needed - uncomfortable, not pleasant but no more. And all in all not a terrible experience. Plus short holiday out of it. He would have to return 6 months-ish later for new teeth to be installed and work completed.

He was unable to go back because of work commitments. When he recently went to a uk dentist for the work to be completed, he was told that all the previous work he had had done would now have to be undone as its not the correct standard or methods used. The bill now? (last week) £4000+

He's back in work now. Was it worth it? No.

[quidsinquentin]

This is my first post, can anyone help, I've been told that lots of British people are going to India for dental work hundreds of pounds cheaper. My husband is in desperate need of major work & I'm wondering whether a holiday to India may be a cheaper option as it will be extremely expensive in UK.

Thanks
Camdi
Hi

I've just posted a reply to this thread above - "Has anyone had dental treatment overseas" that you might find interesting.

Cheers

[jorgeuk76]

As im making some research to do my cosmetic dental treatment in Hungary I've been looking at a few companies but its really hard to find out who are the best ones. This is a major and if not one of the best decisions in my life and I want to make sure I get it right with the right clinic!
Please send me your reviews if you have been patients of the following:
www.dentistabroad.co.uk (http://www.dentistabroad.co.uk)
www.hungarydental.com (http://www.hungarydental.com)
www.access-smile.co.uk (http://www.access-smile.co.uk)
www.smilesavershungary.co.u (http://www.smilesavershungary.co.u)kIf you have been to any of this clinics please send your honest opinion/reviews to me! It would be very apreciated! :A

Thanks

[mda99das]

You cant brand dentistry. Every dentist has their own style and every patient is unique. Boots tried to brand dentistry and failed.

[iain_60]

Hello jorgeuk76,

Came across your post and thought I'd tell you my story about dental treatment in Hungary.

I've just completed the treatment and can assure you that Hungarian dentistry is 1st class.

I've been having my treatment over the last 9 months, I've had implants, Crowns, Bridge work etc. I've made three trips and saved over £12,000 compared to what I would have had to pay in the UK.:money:

I did much researching, as I guess you are. I scaled the internet and the press. I managed to narrow it down to 2 dentistsabroad.com (http://www.dentistsabroad.com/) and kreativdental.co.uk. (http://www.kreativdental.co.uk) After much discussion with my wife and speaking with each I decided to go with kreativ dental. I'm glad to say this was one of my better decisions.

I'm 60, so my wife and I travelled together for the 1st visit. I had my consultation and treatment plan drawn up. The service was good, my wife enjoyed the hotel so we decided that I would go ahead with the treatment. Initially I was shocked at the difference in Price compared to the UK.

The next 2 trips went as well as the first and for the first time in 25 years I'm the proud owner of a full working set of nashers!

I had my dentist have a look at the quality of the work and he rated it as good as anything he had seen.

To say the least Im a happy man.

I wish you all the best with the treatment you receive in Hungary

Good luck

Iain

[jorgeuk76]

Hi Iain!

Thanks a lot for your response! very much appreciated! I'm now divided between dentistabroad.co.uk (http://www.dentistabroad.co.uk) and dentistrytravel.co.uk (http://www.dentistrytravel.co.uk) and your story really gave some points extra to dentistabroad. However I had a very good deal from dentistrytravel and thinking to consider their offer! I'm so looking forward to see and feel the changes this treatment is gonna make in my whole life! I'll be a new man! I'm sure you felt really thrilled when you saw the results!!

Now the challenge is to get it financed! Apparently my credit rate at the moment doesn't give me a lot of choices apart from high interest rate loans to get it done :confused:

Jorge

[Parisien]

This is because dentists on the NHS generally don't have the time to do them properly.

Then either they are accepting payment under false pretences, or they are crap dentists to start with, can you tell us which?

If you know this and your profession know this, and there are checks/audits are carried out by the relevant authorities every year, how many Dentists are struck off, disciplined or held to account...precious bloody few I am sure!!

[Toothsmith]

Can you imagine what would happen if NHS dentist's were struck off for practicing NHS dentistry!!!

Of course it is known what compromises have to be made on the NHS. It is just hushed up!

And where do you get the idea from that there are any checks and audits?? Yes - people come in to look at the paperwork to make sure we're following regulations, but hardly any actual treatment is ever inspected.

I have far more checks and audits as a dentist using the Denplan system than I ever had as an NHS dentist. And being an Excel accredited dentist, I have volunteered for even more and more thorough checks - but that's not a compulsory accreditation.

[donteatthat]

Our practice takes referrals for implants and complex dental reconstructions.
Often the patients who are sent from NHS practices are not dentally fit in any way, shape or form, despite having been regular attenders at their practices.
This upsets me, as not only have these patients given their trust that they have been recieving quality dental care on the NHS, but they have a hell of a way to go before they are dentally healthy enough to be considered suitable for implants, crowns, bridges etc.

My big concern over people going abroad for dentistry is that there is not the time scehduled into the visits to take care of the preliminary aspects to get things to a reasonable state to be placing implants. Stuff like implants, multiple crowns and bridges, RCT's should only be done in those who are in a fit state and understand why their mouth has dropped to bits, and those who have a clear understanding of what they have to do to put things right.

Its a bit like the bl**dy extreme dental makeovers. Who provides continuing care for these people? after their treatment is finished?
Not the "cosmetic dentist" who treated them I tell ya.
They are left to rot like they were doing before.
Completely maverick at best, and unethical and negligent at worst.

Implants need ongoing review and maintenance. And a good system should be used, not some untried clone for which no parts will be available in 2 years time because the company has gone bust.

Also -if you have lost teeth due to gum disease there is a fair old chance your implants could go the same way. Our at-risk implants patients see the hygienist every 8 weeks in some cases to preserve their implants. Are people willing to go back abroad for this that often?

Please don't take chances with your teeth. And if you must go abroad for implants, find out which system is going to be used and check it out fully. Once those implant fixtures are in, you will be up the proverbial creek without a paddle if the company goes belly up and your implant-crown snaps off.

[Parisien]

Guys, as ever its a much more complex, difficult aspect of health than I previously realised.......there is much work to be done to get this over to the general public........ignorance is NOT bliss; nor indeed is leaving your oral health to get to a point of almost...no return then have to fork out a huge amount of dosh!

Nevertheless, relative to incomes, dental care is way too expensive..what else can be done?

People have been voting with their feet, a paper article today estimated the volume going overseas for all treatments, to go up by another 50% this year!

[donteatthat]

You are right - prevention is better than cure in every case.

I am unsure as to the answer. The dental profession need to try to keep educating people about prevention, making good choices for their health and teeth and trying to accomodate them when things go wrong.
I have seen quite a few disaster of treatment done abroad, as have many of my colleagues. This will come more to light to the general public as time goes on I guess.

I am lucky - I work in a very affluent area, so finances are less of an issue compared to the cost of doing the job properly. My concerns are less to do with scare over loss of people to treat but more what we will do 5-6 years down the line when we have to sort out the aftermath of the cheap implants that have failed.

[tomstickland]

Spam alert.
Anyway http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=483744&in_page_id=1774

[misscomickat]

I'll be living in Poland for 4 months next year, and I have heard dental treatment is cheap there.

I would like my teeth whitened and maybe straightened a bit, they are all gappy.

Had anyone had dental work done in Poland or another country in Eastern Europe?

I'm scared of the dentist, but the prices in the UK are pretty scary too!


http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/images/threadbanner.gif

[Toothsmith]

When did you last see a dentist?

If you want them straightened by orthodontics (Braces) then it's a 2 year job.

If you want them straightened by hacking off the enamel to put veneers & crowns on, then be prepared for an awful lot more maintenance/problems over the rest of your life than you would have if you just left them alone.

[misscomickat]

When did you last see a dentist?

If you want them straightened by orthodontics (Braces) then it's a 2 year job.

If you want them straightened by hacking off the enamel to put veneers & crowns on, then be prepared for an awful lot more maintenance/problems over the rest of your life than you would have if you just left them alone.

The last time I went was 2 years ago, the last time I could get it for free. There's not many things in life I'm scared of, but I actually shake and cry when I go to the dentists.

Maybe Ill give the straightening a miss, I didn't know it was that complicated. Wouldn't mind a general checkup and whitening though.

[Toothsmith]

That really would be easier in this country.

Get recommendations from friends/colleagues/family/neighbours, visit the practice to book your appointment so you can get a feel for the place, and check out the fees. Also this would mean that it's not a completely new place your walking into when you first go for your appointment, and you will know some of the faces there.

Then get them checked out.

[misscomickat]

That really would be easier in this country.

Get recommendations from friends/colleagues/family/neighbours, visit the practice to book your appointment so you can get a feel for the place, and check out the fees. Also this would mean that it's not a completely new place your walking into when you first go for your appointment, and you will know some of the faces there.

Then get them checked out.

I can't afford to have it done here! Last time I went I had an H thingy form so I didn't have to pay.

[morg_monster]

If I was THAT scared of the dentist, I would want to be reassured in English not Polish or broken English!!
And you know if you just have a basic NHS checkup and they don't have to do anything special it is only £15 or so.
No offense but if you can't afford £15 for a checkup you might want to put your tooth whitening plans on hold until you are a bit more flush?! They always sell those kits in Boots!

[misscomickat]

I can't afford to have whitening or cosmetic treatments in the UK, that's what I meant. I'm also not registered with an NHS dentist here as I moved house and can't find one.

Many Poles speak very good English and I can speak some Polish so the language thing does not concern me.

[moneylover]

When did you last see a dentist?

If you want them straightened by orthodontics (Braces) then it's a 2 year job.

If you want them straightened by hacking off the enamel to put veneers & crowns on, then be prepared for an awful lot more maintenance/problems over the rest of your life than you would have if you just left them alone.

I was under the impression that veneers last about 15 years?

[Toothsmith]

It depends what you mean by 'last'.

Yes, the bit of porcelain could physically stick to your tooth for 15 years (Although I would have said that 8-10 is a better average figure) but I would very much doubt one would last that long without any staining at the edges, chipping, cracking or some other general wear-and-tear that meant it didn't look anywhere near as good as the day it was fitted.

If the reason for having it done is 'cosmetic' then will that patient be happy with chipped, stained veneers for 3-4 years before they actually 'need' replacing, or will the more likely replacement cycle be every 4-5 years?

I feel there are a lot of people out there having these treatments thinking they will be a once only affair. They're not.

Someone aged 25 having 6 veneers on their upper front teeth could well have them replaced 10 times in a lifetime - and there ain't enough tooth to do that!!! Which means that perfectly healthy teeth, that could have lasted a lifetime, won't. And all for 'cosmetic' reasons.

[mjmal51]

When did you last see a dentist?

If you want them straightened by orthodontics (Braces) then it's a 2 year job.

If you want them straightened by hacking off the enamel to put veneers & crowns on, then be prepared for an awful lot more maintenance/problems over the rest of your life than you would have if you just left them alone.

I can see the argument against veneers for purely cosmetic reasons, but surely this does not apply to modern porcelain crowns? I've had two crowns for 30 years and show no signs of wear, chips, etc. The only problem is that the metal core black line is now beginning to show at the gum. Also they have not needed any more maintenance than the natural teeth.

[Toothsmith]

I can see the argument against veneers for purely cosmetic reasons, but surely this does not apply to modern porcelain crowns? I've had two crowns for 30 years and show no signs of wear, chips, etc. The only problem is that the metal core black line is now beginning to show at the gum. Also they have not needed any more maintenance than the natural teeth.

Crowns are more destructive than veneers, as they take tooth off from all round the tooth, whereas veneers just shave a little bit oiff the front.

So, no, I wouldn't recommend crowns for purely cosmetic reasons either.

Crowns are a very good way to repair teeth that have big fillings in them, or accident damaged, but I wouldn't want to crown a perfectly healthy tooth.

The type of crown you describe, the porcelain bonded to metal type is pretty bullet proof. It's problem is that because the metal layer has to be hidden, the porcelain can't have much colour depth, and they never quite look like real teeth. Plus, you have to take off enough tooth for the metal layer, and then enough tooth for the porcelain layer, and you end up taking off about 1 1/2 -2mm of tooth all the way round, which is a fair proportion.

In long term studies, 20% of this type of crown are found to be non-vital after 5 years. that means that in 1 in 5 of teeth treated like this, the nerve of the tooth has died. This doesn't always give symptoms straight away, but it means that either the tooth will just snap off, or it will blow up into an abscess at some point in the future, unless a dentist spots the problem on an x-ray in advance.

The same death rate is observed in the simpler, but less strong porcelain jacket crowns.

The modern dentine-bonded ceramic crowns have a much better nerve survival rate. Very few of them seem to die after 5 years. The jury is still out as to whether this is because less tooth is taken away, or whether it's the way the tooth is cemented on. By bonding the crown to the dentine of the tooth, a chemical seal is formed which is much less permiable to bacteria than the cement used for more conventional crowns.

Personally, I now seal all cavities I drill, and crowns I prepare with dentine bonding agents before filling them, or sticking crowns on, just in case it's the seal that is the important thing, but then, I'm private and have the time to faff about like this!

30 years is a very good survival time, and so conditions in your mouth must be very good. Bear in mind though that the 8-10 year quoted survival times are the averages, and averages are made up of people who's crowns have lasted for ages, and those that haven't. No-one can be 100% sure when doing the treatment whether it will be a long lasting one, or a shorter one.

Having a dentist who has seen you regularly, and has built up a bit of knowledge of how your particular mouth works will have the best chance of guessing correctly whether a treatment is suitable or not - which is why I hate the idea of people popping off for a couple of weeks to have their teeth sorted out abroad.

There is no way a dentist who has never seen a patient before cn plan anything really complex. If they do, it really is trusting to pure luck for it all to survive.

[mjmal51]

Thanks Toothsmith for the comprehensive reply. Forgot to mention that the 2 crowns I have are on baby teeth which were getiing worn in my twenties, am now in my late fifties, so looks as though I must just be lucky with conditions. As the crowns were done an age ago the materials used is not the most natural looking so was thinking about replacing with new cerec.

[Toothsmith]

Thanks Toothsmith for the comprehensive reply. Forgot to mention that the 2 crowns I have are on baby teeth which were getiing worn in my twenties, am now in my late fifties, so looks as though I must just be lucky with conditions. As the crowns were done an age ago the materials used is not the most natural looking so was thinking about replacing with new cerec.

It's more than lucky, it's verging on the miraculous!!!!

If I was crowning baby teeth for a 20 yr old patient, even with modern materials, I'd be very cautious about promising anything longer than 5-6 yrs!!! But then it's much better to be proved wrong that way round, than promising they'll last for ever and them falling off after 3 yrs!!

Cerec isn't a personal favorite of mine, but there are dentists who are very fond of it, and so that is just a personal preference rather than any reasoned dislike.

It will certainly look an awful lot nicer than bonded porcelain with edges showing.

I completely agree that having them changed is probably better than leaving alone crowns that don't look their best anymore, but please be aware that the act of changing them could always be the last straw for the teeth.

Even if the worst came to the worst though, and they were lost, it wouldn't be too hard to do some sort of adhesive bridge to replace them I shouldn't imagine.

[givememoney]

From personal experience of veneers I would say `don't go there`.

I had two lower front teeth that had the nerve removed some years ago and they had turned grey.

I thought, in my ignorance that veneers would be the answer. I thought they just sort of stuck them on your teeth. What I didn't realise as stated by the Toothsmith, they would hack away most of the tooth to do so.

My regular dentis who normally seems to perform quite well administered these veneers which promptly fell off leaving me with fangs. She reapplied them and then reapplied them again. In the meatime I swallowed one. One of them stayed on for about 6 months and then fell off.

After many months of toing and froing to the dentis she eventually fitted crowns which have thankfully stayed in place.

[Toothsmith]

Veneers can be done quite thin, but if the tooth underneath is discoloured, then you need a thicker bit of porcelain to hide it.

Lower incisors can be a nightmare too, as they are such fiddly little teeth to start with.

Nowadays, probably internal bleaching would be the treatment of first choice.

Taking out the filling in the back of the tooth where access to the nerve was gained for the root filling, and then using tooth whitening agents in that space to get the tooth back to it's original colour. (Or as near as possible).

[moneylover]

Its so good to have a dentist on here prepared to take the time to answer questions. I had no idea that veneers might last such a short time. My problem is that my front teeth are very prominent - I had orthodontics in my teens but everything has moved forward again. Is sixty too old for orthodontics if the bone is healthy (I have no crowns, bridges, dead nerves etc just a few fillings)??
My mum had teeth that were really buck teeth - no orthodontics in her time! When she was about forty the dentist offered to take them out and she had a little plate after that! She absolutely loved it! I guess no dentist would do that today. But would a dentist do a bridge maybe? Veneers wouldnt be any use - one tooth sits on top of another! But I suppose a bridge is equally destructive.
When I have watched 'ten year younger' programmes I have always thought that the work people have had done on their teeth has made the most difference. But it did worry me when one woman had about 12 veneers because she was not well off and I did wonder what she would do if she couldnt afford replacement veneers in the years ahead.

[Toothsmith]

Its so good to have a dentist on here prepared to take the time to answer questions. I had no idea that veneers might last such a short time. My problem is that my front teeth are very prominent - I had orthodontics in my teens but everything has moved forward again. Is sixty too old for orthodontics if the bone is healthy (I have no crowns, bridges, dead nerves etc just a few fillings)??
My mum had teeth that were really buck teeth - no orthodontics in her time! When she was about forty the dentist offered to take them out and she had a little plate after that! She absolutely loved it! I guess no dentist would do that today. But would a dentist do a bridge maybe? Veneers wouldnt be any use - one tooth sits on top of another! But I suppose a bridge is equally destructive.
When I have watched 'ten year younger' programmes I have always thought that the work people have had done on their teeth has made the most difference. But it did worry me when one woman had about 12 veneers because she was not well off and I did wonder what she would do if she couldnt afford replacement veneers in the years ahead.


Sixty probably isn't too old for orthodontics, so long as everything else is OK.

As to any more destructive stuff, it's a different kettle of fish doing things like that to a 60yr old as to a 20 yr old.

If you can excuse my indelicacy, stuff done to an older person isn't going to need replacing as many times as it is for a younger one. Meaning that slightly more extreme things could be considered.

Having said that, it's easily possible these days that you could well still be around for another 40+ years, and pretty active for an awful lot of that time. (My Grandad hit 90 this year, and last Summer recorded his second ever hole in one at his local golf club, where he still plays regularly)

So it's still important not to compromise your dental wellbeing.

Just having the front two teeth out is not a good treatment plan though for a bridge, as the incisors next to them are also thin fiddly teeth like the lower ones. They are not usually good bridge supports.

I would have a good chat with your dentist the next time you're in, and ask him what he thinks the options are, and if he could suggest anything, or refer you anywhere.

[mjmal51]

I suppose we have hijacked this thread from the original theme of having dental work done abroad. However, I had considered that in the past and after reading threads on this forum in the past on this topic I have decided that I will use a private practice in the UK rather than run the risk of language problems and distance should things not go completely right by going abroad to save money. Although UK prices are higher the peace of mind gives better value for money in my opinion.

[moneylover]

Toothsmith, yes, I could be more extreme at sixty in what was done but when I imagine having to have it done again perhaps at eighty it isnt so appealing. And veneers once done no going back of course! I might investigate orthodontics. I think I will look for other older people on the arch-wired message board....

In the meantime two last boring questions which nevertheless might interest other people.
1 Should you clean your teeth before or after breakfast? Or maybe clean before and floss after?
2 Is dental gum helpful after other meals/snacks when teeth cleaning isnt an option ie at work and if so is there any particularly good one?

Its a pity we can only give you one thanks per post!

[Toothsmith]

Brush your teeth after breakfast, ideally not sooner than 1/2 hour afterwards.

Any sugar free chewing gum has benefits if cleaning isn't an option. 'Dental' ones have no particular advantage over normal ones.

[scotsbob]

I can speak very highly of www.dentistabroad.co.uk (http://www.dentistabroad.co.uk).

If you are really worried, they also have a clinic in London if you require advice and/or quotes.

Unlike UK dentists they list their fees online and these are about one third of UK dentists.

No dentist here will tell me their fees until they have charged me for an examination and x-ray. If you want to compare prices you have to pay each dentist these fees.
Rip off Britain again.

My crowns cost £180 each and the consultation and panoramic x-rays were free.

[bintheredunthat]

Excellent info from Toothsmith.I'm now 54 (a young 54 at that ):j and I want my top back teeth, both sides, 'sorted'. They are a mass of metal filling and at my last check I asked my dentist if he would cap/crown them.I would go privately if necessary. He suggested crowns or take the old fillings out and replace them with white. He didn't seem confident that either would last that long (lets face it I hardly need a 40 year guarantee!) but thought 5-6 years. These teeth are slowly wearing as they are where I do most of my chewing :D I had fillings there last year and are due some tomorrow:eek: . My question is, should I bother ? It's only vanity (and a mortgage to pay for it) after all or should I just carry on and not meddle ?
I also was going to go abroad, to Hungary, but have just read a couple of scare stories so am losing my nerve (ends?).

Any advice welcome - before tomorrow !

PS I had a crown put on a front top tooth when I was 17 as I hadn't looked after it and a large section had gone black and broken. I still have the crown and have never had a problem with it - it was an NHS treatment before government messed about with them.

[misscomickat]

I have found on some websites that I can get my teeth whitened in Poland for around £100 (compared to around £500 here).

It's definitely something I am going to consider when I get there.

[ddudgeon]

If you're going to the U.S. for a money-saving shopping trip, make an appointment for UV laser whitening. It's about $300 USD and takes 2 hours.

[MFTC]

:jHi,
I felt the same anxiety about British dentists as so many on the forum. In my experience they are scandalously overpriced. Although most are well educated and competent they are driven by an almost insane profit motivation. They operate on patients like an assembly line - we've all been there where you have an injection, wait, then be treated a little, then wait again - meanwhile a queue of others shuffles along. They do this because the make their money on piecework. I have spent thousands of pounds on my teeth over the years - I am now 47. Most fillings fall out, most caps fail because of their “necessarily” quick shoddy work which is horribly overpriced! I have learned to mistrust their recommendations as they often do unnecessary work.

Last year I watched the Travel Channel took their advice went to Krakow and had £3000 of work done - mostly to ameliorate the mess that Brit Dentists had left behind. All the dentists speak fluent English; they are lovely & old fashionedly polite, gentle and my Goodness incredible value for money! They have post graduate degrees from Western Germany. Their clinics are by Law all equipped and operated at European standards - often higher than ours. They also use Swiss steel made implants. The best porcelain and if you ask will give you receipts for the products they use. The same treatment which took 5 pleasant days in a beautiful city( - just like a holiday) would have cost me upwards of £7000 and would have taken umpteen appointments over many months to fit in with the local Brit dentist For God’s sake vote with your feet and don’t get ripped off here. I met loads of Brits over there as well as Germans, Dutch Italians – they all had the same story about over pricing and poor quality in their “developed” countries. Just look up Polish Dentist on the web. Use a cheap budget flight (as little as £0 from your local airport and go to Poland. After a year my teeth feel fantastic. I have been back for another lovely stay with the wife for a follow up check-up (part of the treatment) and have never had such a good feeling about my gnashers!

[MFTC]

Sorry the budget flight should have read c£30 . still can't get one for only £0!

[Toothsmith]

If you put the same effort into finding good dentists as you obviously have done into finding cheap ones, your experiences would have been a whole lot different.

I hope you are as happy with your teeth in 5-10 yrs time as you are today.

I personally would feel very uncomfortable about providing £3000 of dentistry (Even at UK prices) in 5 days.

[Toothsmith]

I have found on some websites that I can get my teeth whitened in Poland for around £100 (compared to around £500 here).

It's definitely something I am going to consider when I get there.

If you look around, you can get tooth whitening in the UK for a lot less than £500.

I can think of two places local to me that have had limited special offers on it at £99 within the last year or two.

[scotsbob]

There you go, some dentists in the UK can do whitening at European prices. Shows you how much those charging £400-500 are ripping us off for.

[Toothsmith]

There you go, some dentists in the UK can do whitening at European prices. Shows you how much those charging £400-500 are ripping us off for.

So, the concept of 'marketing' is above you?

You can get a perfectly reasonable steak at a Toby Inn for £10.

Does that automatically mean that a more upmarket restaurant is 'ripping you off'?

Is there somebody in the country doing the same job as you for less money?

Does that mean that you are 'ripping somebody off'?

If I could employ someone from eastern Europe to work for half your money what exactly would that 'prove'?

Have you ever stopped to think what it is that makes dentists in the UK so 'Greedy'? Why is it ONLY UK dentists? Even the foreign ones when they get here seem to breath in some sort of gas that turns them from altruistic philanthropists in their own country when they run 'cheap' clinics, into money grabbing profit machines when they get here?

Does it not occur to you that back in their own country, with the lack of regulation, cheap labour, low living costs, very little chance of foreigners coming back with complaints, or being able to successfully sue, that they are actually onto a much better earner even at the rates they charge than they ever would be in a dearer country?

Dentists operating in foreign countries for the tourist market do so for one reason - to make money. Just like anyone else running a business.

The sort of client they attract are the high-need, low knowledge, cost cutter. The dentistry these places turn out is hugely variable in quality (I know of one dentist in this country running a very successful business almost exclusively putting right the mouths of 'dental tourists'). The thing with dentistry though is that even poor quality stuff can look good, and last a few years.

Even if it were good dentistry though, (And it can be) a fortnight's holiday is nowhere near enough to change the lifetime habits that got the teeth into a bad state in the first place, and even good stuff rots if it's not looked after. Advanced dentistry breaks down much more quickly than natural tooth, as there are many nooks and crannies for bugs to get into.

The difference between good stuff and bad stuff is often how replaceable it is when it gets to the end of it's life, not how good it looks when the dentist holds up the mirror.

[LondonDiva]

www.nhs.uk (http://www.nhs.uk)

for lists of NHS dentists in England, if you have difficulties, please contact your local PCT (also searchable on the site for help).

I'm amazed by the number of people who've claimed not to be able to fidn a dentist, but when I ask tell me about the Daily Mail reports rather than their experiences.

If you don't want an NHS dentist, do some asking around for recomendations from those you know.

I had a polite (not quite row, but close) conversation with someone upset that the dentist wanted to charge £2000 for dental work. When I asked her what comparisons she had from other dentists and whether she felt the quality of the work / experience was better than other dentists she'd seen, she told me that she'd walked into the dentist at random. She couldn't be bothered to see what the quality or price was elsewhere, wanted full on orthodontic work and special behind teeth braces etc etc, but was concerned about the price not the work:rolleyes:

:mad:
People send thought, time and money choosing a car or mobile phone, but grudge a fraction of the effort on their health.

[MFTC]

Thank you Toothsmith. The problem is you are part of the problem as a British Dentist: over priced, working at piece rate and churning out as many high profit fillings and extractions as possible. Your scare tactics are now old hat. I am not saying that we cannot accept any British Dentist as a honest broker but we know your interest lies in maintaining your position . Unfortunately for yourselves the public has a choice. As I explained, in my experience, the dentists in Poland are better educated, have the latest and most hygienic conditions;operate to rigorous European standards and sadly for British Dentists, give a more patient, better quality, much much much economically priced alternative. Vote with your feet British Public - you don't have to be ripped off any longer! You will not regret it. Thousands of Brits already have done what I did and received outstandingly better longer lasting treatment for an honest price.

[SparkyG]

Thank you Toothsmith. The problem is you are part of the problem as a British Dentist: over priced, working at piece rate and churning out as many high profit fillings and extractions as possible.

How do you know that? Are you one of his patients?:confused:

[Toothsmith]

How do you know that? Are you one of his patients?:confused:


He's not the demographic I target, certainly!!! :D

[SparkyG]

He's not the demographic I target, certainly!!! :D


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[moomin_white]

There you go, some dentists in the UK can do whitening at European prices. Shows you how much those charging £400-500 are ripping us off for.

the dentists work at use the Britesmile whitening system, problem is the dentist has to pay Britesmile everytime they use the machine(and use a new Britesmile pack) and that costs them around £200 each time.
It's not as simple as you may think!

[moomin_white]

Thank you Toothsmith. The problem is you are part of the problem as a British Dentist: over priced, working at piece rate and churning out as many high profit fillings and extractions as possible. Your scare tactics are now old hat. I am not saying that we cannot accept any British Dentist as a honest broker but we know your interest lies in maintaining your position . Unfortunately for yourselves the public has a choice. As I explained, in my experience, the dentists in Poland are better educated, have the latest and most hygienic conditions;operate to rigorous European standards and sadly for British Dentists, give a more patient, better quality, much much much economically priced alternative. Vote with your feet British Public - you don't have to be ripped off any longer! You will not regret it. Thousands of Brits already have done what I did and received outstandingly better longer lasting treatment for an honest price.

one of the problems is that you are tarring all British dentists with the same brush.
the surgery i work at is amazing, high cross infection control standards, polite and highly trained staff, continual professional development and high standards of care. We spend time on every single patient, just a check up takes 15mins! (i've worked in NHS practices where a crown prep took 15mins...urgh) We use high quality laboratories and materials (this makes all the difference)

one of the problems is patients don't see the hidden costs - such as surgery rental, cost of hiring support staff(nurses, receptionists),dental material costs(put the work dental in front of something and suddenly you can charge 3 x the price!), electricity, professional fees, and on and on.

there are some dentists that are rip off merchants, but that goes for every trade out there. Just don't think we're all the same!

[Strapped]

www.nhs.uk (http://www.nhs.uk)

for lists of NHS dentists in England, if you have difficulties, please contact your local PCT (also searchable on the site for help).

I'm amazed by the number of people who've claimed not to be able to fidn a dentist, but when I ask tell me about the Daily Mail reports rather than their experiences.

If you don't want an NHS dentist, do some asking around for recomendations from those you know.

I had a polite (not quite row, but close) conversation with someone upset that the dentist wanted to charge £2000 for dental work. When I asked her what comparisons she had from other dentists and whether she felt the quality of the work / experience was better than other dentists she'd seen, she told me that she'd walked into the dentist at random. She couldn't be bothered to see what the quality or price was elsewhere, wanted full on orthodontic work and special behind teeth braces etc etc, but was concerned about the price not the work:rolleyes:

:mad:
People send thought, time and money choosing a car or mobile phone, but grudge a fraction of the effort on their health.

Moved here in March. Advised NO dentists currently accepting new NHS clients in the whole of this part of the county. Added my name to the only waiting list (for a practice 20 miles away). Still waiting to be accepted.

[Lifesaver]

No dentists taking NHS patients onto their lists in South Cumbria........and when one opened people queued from 3am.

I go to the Emergency Clinic who are good, but only deal with an aching tooth.

Appalling situation, in fact, I'm thinking of going to Hungary to get sorted - at least I'll get a holiday and treatment!

[sheilavw]

I went to my dentist for a check up last week (private) he is new. He was doing my checkup and said "Oh have you had some work done, its not on my records". I explained that I had had the bridge done in Turkey last August. He was really impressed that I paid £425 for 5 unit bridge and 2 extractions and confirmed it would have been closer to £1800. He said he didnt blame me if I could get it done at that price and asked me loads of questions like did I arrange it prior and how I found it over there.

[donteatthat]

He's not the demographic I target, certainly!!! :D


Nor me. One of the luxuries of private practice - you can choose who you treat.

[nuttywoman]

We`ve not had a nhs dentist for nearly a year now, and the ones local are`nt taking on any new patients!

[nuttywoman]

Forgot to say, also, i remember when i was younger, i`m in my 50`s now , when i started work in a factory, nearly all the people in their twenties and upwards had false teeth.One woman told me she`d had all her teeth out at 19.
Will we see more of this i wonder?

[donteatthat]

Yes possibly.
The NHS encourages extraction over root canal treatment, but it also doesn't encourage denture making! So we may be heading for more toothless peeps.

[Toothsmith]

Yes possibly.
The NHS encourages extraction over root canal treatment, but it also doesn't encourage denture making! So we may be heading for more toothless peeps.

That would be true if the NHS dental service is going to be around long enough to do that sort of damage to people.

I think the future will be the death of NHS dentistry for all but toothaches in very deprived inner city areas.

Everyone else will have to make their own arrangements for dental treatment.

There is great resistance to this at the moment, as there is still a strong feeling of 'entitlement' to free or heavily subsidised dental treatment.

That is why this nonsense of 'saving money' by going abroad is a bit of a fad at the moment.

Once the reality sets in though, and people realise that low cost dentistry has gone the same way as free higher education, reliable busses, chiropody, and small local Post Offices, they will look around, and see that some of the insurance products out there at the moment really are good value for money, and, so long as you take them out before your mouth gets into such a state that it will cost thousands to put right, they can make regular, routine, preventative dental care for themselves and their family quite affordable.

Dental care and dental health in this country will then only improve.

I would argue that one of the biggest factors holding back dental care in this country over the past 20 years has been the dying rump of NHS dentistry.

[ronnie2456]

:rotfl:hello. i went to budapest 3 weeks ago for 4 implants. so far so good all together i will be saving £8,000. i went to Dentistabroad.co.uk. their dental technology is amazing. i recommend it to anyone. i did 6 months research before i finally chose dentist abroad, i went to a dentist here who was offering free consultations, but she was to pushy and scared me to be honest, we take a big risk when we go abroad but do the research talk to people its worth it in the end.. and i got a 5% DISCOUNT so no need to use the credit card.. Hi, this is my first thread.We have been to Budapest twice with a further trip end of May.
1.Kreative Dental were excellent and I had extensive work. All my teeth are porcelain/metal crowned with an upper denture (unavoidable in my case bone density not suitable for implants) which clips on (never option in UK)also a lower 2 tooth denture which clips in and is released by a gold key in the side of the denture(never seen before they only do 1/2 a year in Kreative)
2.Antibiotics are given to all patients as part of the package. Since the hotel is less than 5 mins walk from the clinc any probs are seen quickly.
3.My husband had 3 metal posts put in in January and had stitches removed by our local dentist who is happy to maintain our dental work. He also approved of our going, we consulted him first.His completed costs will be similar to mine £5k+ this includes a bridge.He has had no problems. Our dentist says this is top quality work and he highly approved.
4. All work is fully guarranteed. A uk based dentist is available to lease with at any time. We did not pay by credit card since 3% discount is offered and we took it.Paid for the trip.
5. Finally our experience is that these are professionals who work to a higher standar than any dentist I have been to in the Uk ,since I cant afford a Harley Street clinician I cant compare those.
6.My estimate for work in the Uk was around £24.000.00 It cost me £5.500.00 (completed)in Budapest. Plus we had a good stay enjoying the beautiful cities of Buda and pest. If only we had a transport system like theirs. Incidently a free bus,train,tram pass is given for your stay. A taxi collects you and returns you to airport and the hotel while basic is ok is also subsidised by the clinic.
7.Whilst there all we met were very happy with dental proceedures.If you dont like the Amedaus Hotel you can stay elsewhere at your own cost.The menu caters for dental patients.
Hope all this helps do look at www.kreativedent.co.uk (http://www.kreativedent.co.uk) its an informative site.Oh we are pensioners.I have a smile to envy now :D

[moomin_white]

the concern i have with people going abroad for dentistry is that these people describe all these thousands of pounds they save but you only need that amount of treatment if you have a badly neglected mouth.
Will these people go to a dentist regularly once the treatment is complete? or will they just ignore their mouth again for years ahead?
also,people only get bad problems because of neglect and poor oral hygiene and diets-so unless these things are addressed they will again end up with problems.
I see going abroad for dental treatment as a sticky plaster rather than a holistic whole approach for long term dental care. Which for me,as a hygienist,goes against the reason why i work in dentistry.

Plus people seem to forget/ignore the fact that implants can fail -they're not absolutely perfect.

[Toothsmith]

That's exactly right Moomin.

I suppose there may be some sort of perverse satisfaction in only flushing £3000 down the toilet instead of £10000, but for anyone who looks into it any further than the price, they will see that done slowly and carefully over several months rather than a couple of weeks, there will be an awful lot of re-education built into that as well.

[Tiggs25]

I recently had a consultation in London with Dentist Abroad, who are based in Budapest, Hungary. They have given me a quote for complete upper jaw implants (8 in all) together with 12 teeth. Has anybody had any experience with this company?

[moomin_white]

no tthe reply you are hoping for,but have you done your research on implants? do you know if the person you had a consultation with is a dentist or a sales person?

the implant dentist i work with does a thorough examination, radiographs, bone densitiy scanning,etc.All these things are important to discover whether you have enough bone for the implants-if you don't any implants will probably fail

If you need that amount of implants-when did you lose your original teeth? the longer it has been-the less bone you probably have to support any implants.

[Toothsmith]

Three months ago, this was posted:-

Me and my wife are the lucky ones who are registered with NHS dentist.

My wife had a bridge (for 2 tooth) which unfortunetly came out and also right next to that one more tooth came out. We been to dentist and they gave her normal medications and advise bridge will not now be possible due to 3 teeth missing. This means she will have to get partial teeth denture.

However the twist is my dentist refused to it as says they do not do it on NHS eventhough we are registered as NHS patients. Instead they have referred us to another dentist (we think they are private) who we have to initial consultation in two weeks time. Also our dentist was saying each tooth cost normally £1500 means it will cost us £4500 for 3 tooth replacement!!!!!!!

Now I was wondering if anyone can advise me that:

If it's correct for my dentist to refuse to do her tooth replacement and refer us to somewhere else?
Does each tooth replacement really cost £1500?
If not what can I do about this?
And most importantly how can I arrange my wife's replacement tooth done?Finally forgot to mention that my wife works and I have made redundant from work as of 18/1/08. Any advise or help is appreciated and thank you in advance.



Then yesterday, we had this:-

I am aware that the advise will not be professional medical however any info would be appreciated.

My wife had implants done in INDIA recently as was quoted too much in UK. Everything was find initially however had infection after 2-3 weeks when she returned to uk. So we saw another dentist here who prescribed amoxicillin 250mg for 7 days after taking x-ray and said it's due to infection. However puss came out of gums yesterday so we saw dentist again who put cut and drained the puss out. He is saying the implants might have failed however will not do anything due to implants done in India. He will also not refer has to hospital to at least cure the infection and puss. On the otherside the dentist in India says everything will be fine if she continue taking antibiotics. Currently gums still swallon a bit and not sure what to do now.

She has already been off work for about a week and worried that the longer this drags will have to take more time off work which might create problem although it's genuine.

Thank you in advance.

How glad do you think these people are that they got a bargin price now?

Now this sort of thing can happen anywhere - this might have been done at a fantastic clinic in India (Although the indian dentist saying it will be fine if she just keeps taking the antibiotics makes me think that it wasn't).

Occasionally things don't go to plan, and if something goes wrong, you'll find great difficulty getting anything other than basic emergency care in this country. This is becaue if yo have an implant system that a dentist isn't familiar with, more harm may well be done in removing it all, so no-one will risk touching it and then having a complaint made against them later on.

[charlie_mac]

Hi, I just wanted to give my thoughts on the matter and to get some advice if possible. Although my dentist says my teeth are good the problem, as I have explained to him, is that they are not straight, all he says is that they are cramped so he recommends comin in every 3 instead of 6 months to clean but will now recommend any sort of cosmetic dentistry to get them to look straighter. I have therefore been looking at the ones abroad and what my options would be, could anyone give advice on this? my major problem is that the tooth to the right of my two front teeth has been pushed back and looks like it is going behind one of my front teeth, my lower teeth are quite crooked but not drastically so. I have asked my dentist about this and he never seems to give a suitable solution. Im not sure if this is because im younger or what. Also I have noticed this talk of 'well if they get it fixed will they keep they mouth in good shape and how did it get like this in the first place?' well my problem was tat my mother didnt really care about teeth so I was never fully educated in good oral health however as soon as I realised a bit later its importance I have improved and even my dentist has said he is very pleased with my teeth compared to what they were like when I first joined him. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Toothsmith]

Your problem is completel different from dental disasters who go abroad for what they think is a 'quick fix'.

You are a young person with good, but a bit crooked, teeth. And you go to the dentist regularly and look after them.

Kept as they are,you may well have a lifetime of very little dental work.

Your dentist is probably putting you off because he knows that as soon as you take a drill to a tooth, you are taking away something that may well last you your lifetime, and replacing it with something that will need a lifetime of care, replacement and maintenance.

How bad is the crooked tooth? Do other people REALLY notice it?

Does he really know how much it bothers you?

The first avenue I would explore if I were you would be orthodontics. Braces and the like.

This would mean that you'd be wired up for a year or two, but the huge advantage is that at the end of the day, it would still be a smile made up of your own healthy teeth, and not great chunks of porcelain or other ceramic, which although looking great for a few years, will need replacing every now and again.

Orthodontics needs regular appointments every few weeks for that 2 year period, so going abroad for this isn't really an option.

If orthodontics isn't possible, then I really would think long and hard before you go down the road of letting a dentist take a drill to a healthy tooth, ad be sure that you have the finances to aford regular replacement.

I would find a dentist in this country to do the work, for all the reasons I have mentioned in the past. Maybe ask your own dentist to refer you to a cosmetic specialist that he knows and trusts.

[Stephb1986]

i have the same problem well sort of

the teeth that are at the side of my 2 front teeth at the top are behind my front teeth so they are crooked :(

my bottom teeth are slightly slanted but im not bothered about them

im going to bulgaria in june and thinking of getting 2 veneers and having my teeth whitened. but i have got a appointment with my dentist next monday but i know i need about 4 or 5 fillings im terrified of the drill and dentists what am i going to do :(

Steph xx

[Toothsmith]

If you are not 100% comfortable with the thought of dental treatemt n then under no circumstances should you have anything that's not completely necessary.

If you need 4-5 fillings, then there is something going on with your teeth, especially if it's not been that long since you last went.

If it has been a long time since you last went, then again, why is that? If it's because you're terrified, then the last thing you want is unnecessary work doing (Unnecessary as in just for cosmetic reasons).

The very first thing you need to think of is finding a dentist with whom you are comfortable. Get into the habit of going regularly and reducing the amount of fillings you need each time.

When things are stable, and you are a happy dental bunny, then you can think about cosmetic stuff.

It's a bit like having one of those houses on the cliffs of the East coast. It's a bit silly thinking about conservatories when the next storm could wash away the whole house!!

[Stephb1986]

its been a while since ive been to be honest last time i went he told me i needed 4 fillings and now i think i need 1 more as i asked him for sedation and he wouldnt give it me so wasted my time sending me to this other clinic where this other bloke wouldnt sedate me so ive been too scared to go back and now next week its a different dentist than i had last time so im being brave if they did a silent drill i wouldnt be as bothered.

Will they do all 5 fillings while im there or ask me to come back?

Steph xx

[Toothsmith]

No idea.

If it's an NHS place, they'll probably need to get it done as soon as they can.

If it's private, they really should centre it more around your needs, so it'll probably get done in more manageable chunks.

[Stephb1986]

its NHS im terrified :(

I cant even eat chocolate because i get toothache when i eat it (only sometimes) :)

Steph x

[Got2change]

Phew - I have just read this entire thread; it interested me because I too had considered Budapest for treatment (actually you'd think that I would know better, having had cosmetic sugery in South Africa - and having real issue with the outcome... but that's another story) but am definitely having second thoughts - and besides, nothing's in my budget at the moment so I don't know what to do.
I have good - alebit weak - teeth. That and a fear of dentists from age 4 (first visit was with an abcess) means that fair enough I have a mouth "full" of mercury (?) fillings and some gaps towards the back.
On my 21st birthday, I had a nerve removed from the tooth behind my canine and gradually the tooth gave way and I ended up having a bridge and crown from the tooth behind (no idea of names and numbers) to fill the gap. Not that it's a factor now but this cost £55 in 1986 - the year I got married (no way was I going ahead with the gap....). The fixture lasted until last year when the tooth supporting the crown (and therefore bridge) started to give way. By now I had lost my place with the NHS dentist but still went to the same one on a private basis. She stuck it back in twice but I never even ate on that side for fear of eating the bridge and crown. Lost loads of weight though!
Then this year it came loose again and detached itself, leaving me with what I call a gap in my smile. It may not be immediately apparent until I smile - but I like smiling and it's making me sooooo self-conscious. Problem now is that I can't afford ANYTHING (bullied out of my job just before Christmas) other than having had the remains of the tooth that supported the crown extracted at a NHS dentist that I had never been to before (he was OK but not English and tbh I wouldn't hurry back), so now I have a two-tooth gap and one very-filled tooth right at the back and my virgin canine tooth to the front. My lovely dentist ('s nurse) has been calling me to see what I want to do because they don't know my financial circumstances (i.e. can't afford private any more) and nor do they know that I had the extraction elsewhere.
I certainly look after my teeth but have been cursed with weak ones (does a mother giving a child a dummy with syrup on do any damage as my grandmother said?); they are white and a little gappy but I would give anything to have this one tooth gap filled in some way - I just don't know the best course of action any longer. (Toothsmith?)
Any suggestion gratefully received (apart from telling me to live with it....).
x

[Toothsmith]

Pursue your employer for constructive dismissal, and spend the money on fixing your smile.

Employment law is a complete minefield for employers, and if you leaving was not completely by-the-book, then you will almost certainly have a case they will find very hard to defend.

Unfair dismissal or constructive dismissal is extremely hard to defend against if the paperwork isn't completely up-to-date and according to current law.

Even if the employee who left was the worst employee in the world - you still have to follow fair proceedures to get rid of them.

[Got2change]

Pursue your employer for constructive dismissal, and spend the money on fixing your smile.

Employment law is a complete minefield for employers, and if you leaving was not completely by-the-book, then you will almost certainly have a case they will find very hard to defend.

Unfair dismissal or constructive dismissal is extremely hard to defend against if the paperwork isn't completely up-to-date and according to current law.

Even if the employee who left was the worst employee in the world - you still have to follow fair proceedures to get rid of them.

I hadn't been in the job long enough to make any claim against them (just under six months). Part of the bullying was to manufacture so many faults with me that in the end even I believed that I was incompetent, rule-breaking and stupid. I initiated the grievance procedure (post-departure and with thoughts of taking them to a tribunal) but halted it at the 11th hour and never really did intend to go through with it. I had not one ounce of support in the company and had to leave the matter with my health intact if not my self-esteem. The ripple effect has been dreadful.
Thanks for the advice though.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[HOLLY]

I haven't read the whole of this thread but i think it does debate Hungarian Dentists. Well i feel i must add my experience on the matter.
I thought i had researched extensively when i chose Vital Europe a dental agency in Budapest. They recommended using a Dentist called Profident also in Budapest. To cut a very long story short ,the outcome was the loss of all my top teeth. I now wear a denture, which has caused no end of misery and depression.
This was caused by having a one piece bridge fixed attached to nine teeth and an implant at one end. So my English Dentist tells me that you cannot have a one piece bridge of twelve teeth which is bad enough but attached to an implant. Reason being if one tooth has a problem whole bridge has to be drilled off. More importantly teeth are not ridged as are implants so any normal movement of teeth of teeth against the solid implant makes the bridge unstable. My eventual outcome was that the bridge snapped off taking with it several of my teeth ,of which most are still stuck in the solid cement .
O.K now i have some teeth left beyond repair because the dentist left a gap between tooth and gum when fitting allowing infection. My dentist advised me to have all remaining removed and implants inserted. This i did placing nine implants.
I informed Vital Europe of this who guarantee a refund should new crowns fail. Because i had not returned to to the same dentist who had caused such trauma in my life,to finish me off completely by taking everything out and fitting a denture , my refund or even a complimentary gesture was ignored. With such an outcome ,who would return to the same hangman.
I have sent reports, letters , emails, photos, asked for my notes and,x rays. All i received was a letter in Hungarian. I rest my case.
I still intend to fight for some justice ,but when i am not feeling so down.
So the moral of the story is when you think you have researched extensively ,do some more .

[Toothsmith]

My heart always sinks when this thread reappears.

Reading your story HOLLY is much worse than trying to explain to those recommending such options (but not having them done themselves) that there is a reason that dental treatment is cheaper abroad.

A recent WHICH? report had it as high as 1 in 5 medical/dental tourists were unhappy with their treatment.

The problem with dental treatment is that it's generally such huge treatment plans that are done in the 'fortnight's holiday' that when things do go wrong - they really are disfiguring, and life-changing.

I fear that with the way eastern european countries regulate their dental practices, seeking redress may well be throwing good money after bad.

Thank you for posting this though.

[HOLLY]

Did you have your treatment with Dentistsabroad

[alison999]

i always thought implants took weeks to do properly.

[Toothsmith]

They do!! :rolleyes:

[alison999]

They do!! :rolleyes:


lol go figure. just remember cheap doesnt equal the best. put it this way my 4 year old can cut my hair for free (yay) OR i could pay £50 and get it done RIGHT. he he

[donteatthat]

Try months by the time you have a "dentally fit" patient then have done all the initial planning, consenting, preliminary surgery and then the actual implant placements, reviews of surgery, provisional restorations and final restorations which would usually include several visits for trials :)

[kazwookie]

Also insurance costs a fortune for all this

[Toothsmith]

For anyone interested, the General Dental Council has issued a leaflet for people considering dentistry abroad.

http://www.gdc-uk.org/NR/rdonlyres/BA5A3BC8-D751-4FB1-8D79-5A0ABBD9F491/82885/GoingabroadforyourdentalcareFINAL.pdf

It deals with what to look out for, and good questions to ask of the people you're considering going with.

[cymro]

Shocked at prices of dental care so contemplating health tourism. Does anyone have any experience of using overseas dentists. Was the treatment good? Was it cheaper/worth the effort of going overseas? Any specific recommendations for a dentist?

[alison999]

Theres a massive thread on this, http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=25445&highlight=dental+tourism

[cymro]

Thanks - My initial searches failed to uncover this.

Tom

[arunadasi]

Shocked at prices of dental care so contemplating health tourism. Does anyone have any experience of using overseas dentists. Was the treatment good? Was it cheaper/worth the effort of going overseas? Any specific recommendations for a dentist?

I've just returned from a few days in Germany where I had dental treatment, so for what it's worth I thought I'd give some info on dental care there, and maybe get some good feedback and advice here!

Some background info: I lived in Germany for over 30 years and am included in my husband's civil servant health plan, which means I get 70% of all my dental and medical bills paid by the german state. I can have private health care abroad coverted as well, as long as it does not exceed the German tarifs. The remaining 30% I can pay myself, or arrange for private cover. Private cover in Germany would have been very expensive so I decided not to get it.

I've been living in England since 2001 and have had regular NHS dental check-ups since then. I found the care OK but it annoyed me that almost every time I was seen by a different NHS dentist at the same clinic. So i took out private dental insurance in the UK, just in case, but never used it all these years.

Last year in March I went to my former German dentist who informed me that one of the teeth beneath a bridge, a tooth that holds the bridge, has died and is rotting away. I would need to have the bridge removed and something done - something expensive; she recommended implants. Now, the bridge covers three front teeth which are missing, and four others which were filed down! So it's a huge job, and the 30% I'd have to pay myself - well, I just wouldn't be able to afford it.

Back in the UK, I went ot my NHS dentist and did not tell her about the German diagnosis. It was just a check-up and a filling. AN XRay was taken but the dentist did not notice the dead tooth. SO I lost confidence completely there.

AFter a piece broke off of the bridge, I went to my private UK dentist, for the first time. I was very impressed when he confirmed the German diagnosis, even without an Xray! He too said it would be very expensive, invoving implants and what not. According to my policy, my UK insurance only pays £500 for implants. I am not sure if this is per tooth, or for complete treatment.

Last week in Germany I went to a new dentist who specialises in implants- he says the work should be done ASAP. He had all kinds of high tech apparatus and was able to show me close up photos of the teeth in question and the damage that is going on beneath and behind them.

He says he can't say exactly what work needs doing until the bridge is down and he can examine the bone beneath it. OIne thing, though, it is going to be a very long process involving at leastr three trips to Germany.

He told me that, as far as he knew, dental treatment in the UK was the most expensive in the EU with British dentists earning the most, and German dentists the least. He thought that after 70% of the costs were paid the rest would not be too prohibitive.

I need to ring my insurer to find out a) if the £500 is per tooth and b) if they pay for costs abroad. If there's a yes to both of those, I think I'm home fine.

The nice thing about treatment is Germany is that they don't expect payment up front. They send a bill; you collect the money; and THEN you pay the dentist.

The big hassle will be travelling to Germany a few times to get the treatment done.

Since there were questions as to dental care abroad I just wanted to put this info out there. German dentists are really fantastic, very thorough and you get plaque removal etc done while you wait, by their invariably friendly assistants! Most of them speak good English, and if there is a problem afterwards you'd certainly have no problem getting it put right again. And Germany is also a very worthwhile place to have a little holiday.

[arunadasi]

OK, I just called my insurer. They do not pay for treatment abroad, and they pay £500 per implant, with a maximum of £1000 per policy period.

I just checked a few dental implant UK websites, and there are offers of imaplnts for around £600 - £800. Are these reliable?

It seems to me that I am better off having the treatment done in the UK, and if I am lucky I might be able to get it all covered.

[arunadasi]

I just found this site, which lists costs for implants in various countries.
http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/private-dentistry/dental-treatments/dental-implants-guide/cost/

Accdording to them, a UK implant costing £2000 would be £600 in both Hungary and Germany. If that is true there's no way hubby's health plan will cover most of it.

[Savvy_Sue]

At the risk of sounding like the Tooth Fairy's assistant (which I'm not), the dentists have pointed out that implants are not a permanent 'fix it and forget it' solution. People need to have good dental health and habits before they're appropriate (which it sounds as if you do), and then keep those habits up.

It's preferable to have consistent care too.

So, wherever you spend more of your time, getting your implants there would be the 'best' option, so that any problems can be fixed promptly and without a lot of fuss. Getting them done in Germany but expecting a UK dentist to give you the best 'ongoing' care or vice versa is fraught with potential problems.

[Toothsmith]

The nice thing about treatment is Germany is that they don't expect payment up front. They send a bill; you collect the money; and THEN you pay the dentist.


They've obviously not had that much experience of british dental patients!

The dentist would send the bill, the patient would collect the money, the patient would blow it all on some shopping spree and stuff the dentist - they're rich enough anyway!

I pretty much trust my little cohort of regular patients, but anyone new arriving and it's at least pay-as-you-go if not payment up front!