I wanna find a new NHS dentist [Archive] - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums

Poppy9

25-01-2005, 4:39 PM

Same problem here in Wales. It is now impossible to transfer to an NHS dentist.

Perhaps a dentist can explain to me why they are going private. Their traininng was paid for by tax payers and for years they have earned a much better living than doctors or nurses who also provide health care. In addition dentists unlike other medical professionals work 9-5 Monday to Friday. I have never met a poor dentist. This moving over to Denplan is a con. Min. payment per adult is £14 per month that is £168 per year. Ok this covers routine treatment but as I paid just £22 for my last filling and £30 for 2 checkups (with scale and polish) what exactly am I getting for the extra £106? When my dentist went private they tried to use blackmail to get you to sign up by saying each dentist currently has 3000 patients and will only be taking on 1000. They are therefore quite happy for 2000 patients each (multiply by 4 for the 4 dentists in the practice) to go without a dentist. Nice committed health professionals (not). Obviously they are just looking forward to the £168,000 per year they will each collect. If you consider 4 dentist in one practice that equals £672,000 per year. If they employ 2 receptionists and 4 nursers that will cost approx. £90,000. Premises rent and overheads say £15,000. That leaves £567,000 between 4 = £140k each per year. Not a bad living for a 2/3rd cut in workload.

If they are truely private it should be like seeing a private doctor. You make an appointment when you need to see one and pay the one off cost. As most check ups take less than 15 minutes the cost should be no more than £17 (based on £140k per year for 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year = £67 per hour). You only really need 1 check up per year.

Final note it seems easy to get a private dentist but they insist you go on denplan. Is this fair? Should we be contacting the office of fair trading about unfair practices? BT, BG etc lost their monopoly to give customers more choice and cheaper prices. Denplan seems the new monopoly.

Dentist discussion thread (http://forum.moneysavingexpert.com/forum/showthread.html?p=241519#post241519)

weaver

25-01-2005, 4:53 PM

Ive had the same problem. My dentist has gone private wants to charge:

25.00 to register as private patient and I will pay 100% of any dental costs

or 10.00 a month and I get 20% knocked of my treatment bill.

Not many NHS dentists in my area, search NHS Direct and you can enter your postcode and it will tell you of all NHS dentists in your area.

In the end I have taken out a policy with Foresters ( as a suggested health policy company in "The Money Diet" )It will cost me 16.99 a month and it covers eyes & teeth 100% costs upto a limit(115.00 eyes & 105.00 teeth plus physio,chiropractice etc.) They have 4 options starting at 6.00 a month to 22.00 a month. I ve only just joined so cant tell you how they are but with the cost of my contact lenses and dental registration & check ups I feel at least the first year I should cover the monthly fee.

Hope this helps

www.foresters.co.uk

Poppy9

25-01-2005, 5:01 PM

plumpmouse

25-01-2005, 8:30 PM

donteatthat

26-01-2005, 7:14 PM

I am a dentist and I will explain to you why I have come out of the NHS and for a drop in income....which blows your monetary theory somewhat out the water.
I'm sure alot of dentists will have read your enllightening post, so I hope you get your answers.
I got fed up with the free-for-all service I was having to provide. I got sick of patients who didn't have to pay for their treatment taking that as a carte-blanche to muck me about with missing their appointments, not being bothered to brush their teeth before they came in, being rude to reception staff, failing to complete their treatment, and generally taking the wee-wee. Some seemed to confuse an "ON CALL SERVICE" with "BECK AND CALL".
They spoilt it for the patients who did genuinely care.
I got sick of not having enough time to treat my more deserving patients, as the types of patient mentioned above would ring in pain and demand emergency appointments to sort out the things they hadn't bothered to return to have treatment on.
I got fed up with being treated like a government tax collector, and Im sure this was the reason for some of the disrespect we recieved from the patients we were trying to help.
I got sick of the underfunding from the government.
I got sick of seeing patients on what felt like a conveyor belt.
I got sick of waiting for the government to sort out our new contract, which by the way is supposed to make NHS working life better, but infact is actually just going to force alot more dentists to go private as they have failed to address the main issues.
FYI, just because we are trained by tax payers money this does not mean we have to work in the NHS. And why should it morally if we can provide a better service outside the constraints of the NHS? Are all solicotors forced to work with legal aid cases - No.Are alll teachers prevented form working in private schools? No. And so on.......dentists pay tax too, and think about the number of useless degrees there out there that we subsidise but get no service back in return.
In my experience the people who complained about even the cost of NHS treatment seemed to be the ones who expected everything for nothing. They always had money to pay for their mobile phones, acrylic nails, hair extensions and new clothes, but then whined about their "missed appointment charge".
If people spent more time looking at the reasons why they had bad oral health, and trying to correct that instead of neglecting their mouths, then blaming the dentists when they can't get to see one we would be moving forwards. In the meantime the dentists of this country are forcing people to put the correct value on their oral health by going private and charging fees more inline with what it actually costs to run a dental surgery.
I could go on all night......but I have better things to do quite honestly.
Oh, and by the way - I have a mixture of private patients, and no-one is forced to go on Denplan.
HTH,
donteatthat

Willowrose

26-01-2005, 7:22 PM

In reply to all seeking NHS dentistry the best option is to ring the Contractor Service Agency for your area or NHS direct and they will tell you who is taking on new NHS patients. In reply to Poppy9 her post is grossly misinformed so some facts need to be put straight. It is true that the tax payer used to fund a university education. I am not aware that the person who receives that education is obliged to then work for the state in order to repay the tax payer. Are lawyers only allowed to do legal aid work? are actors only to work for the BBC? I am sure that many people who have obtained a degree at British universities do not feel that they owe the state anything. Why should dentists be different? As an NHS dentist I am not aware that I have earned more than my local NHS GP. The figures show that GP's earnings vastly outstrip dentists earnings-where did you get the idea that dentists earn more than doctors? I particularly liked your idea of the outgoings of a dental practice!!!!Where did you get your £15,000 from? do you seriously think that is the out going figure for a year!!!I presume that you have no idea that rent/mortgage is paid plus wages, Lab.fees(at least £1500 a month and that is for NHS work treble that for a lab doing private work),Materials(have you any idea how much local anaesthetic costs? amalgam, composite-that is the white filling material-alginate to take impressions with-the cost of the instruments - files and burs- I have just paid £600 for a new drill and I need at least 3 to keep in line with health and saftey regs.The list is endless and the costs to the dentist too.We pay for correct waste disposal,as well as service contracts for our equipment. Don't forget normal business costs of phone .post, printing etc. Plus we have to pay massive indemnity costs because of the sueing culture now common- that is a lot of money every month plus normal business insurances.In my NHS practice my bills(outgoings) are at least £5000 per month.
Do you know having reread this post I don't know why anyone would want to be an NHS dentist in this day and age. The british public have had the benefit of very high quality dentistry at rock bottom prices for years because each successive government has refused to fund it(nhs dentistry) properly. They have relied on the good will of UK trained dentists to provide a good nhs service in return for less and less money. Some people felt that they could not compromise the quality of service they provided and went private in order to give a good service to those that could payi.e. the correct rate for the job provided. VERY VERY few did it in order to line their pockets. Those of us left in the NHS know that we are at breaking point and that to go private is the only option we have left. Blame the government and not just this one for the failings of the NHS but DO NOT BLAME the dentists

shrek101

26-01-2005, 7:47 PM

You ought to live in my town the worse town in the whole country for getting a dentist, as seen on TV last year.

The practise that was featured on TV managed to get a Dutch dentists, however she left due to a legal case in Holland.

My mother in law moved back to our town late last year, she had hell of a job to get a dentists which in the end was a foreign on. I have no objection to the people who come over here but far better to have a British dentists rather than deprive an another area unless there a surpluss in that area.

Anyhow on last week on local paper went to this dentist for a check-up to be told she needed 6 fillings think that was correct. Turned out after seeing two other dentist that's she didn't need this work.

So I wonder how many others are doing this.

I also think the government (think it was under Tory then) shouldn't of closed that establishment that trained them, and that all dentists should sign up an agreement to not leave NHS control without seriously financial penalty. However in return they should be paid a reasonable amount and should be determined under an independent control.

I find it remarkable that he thinks because you many people get free treatment that they are some what people who mess them about, and don't brush there teeth and are rude.

If people are rude fine refuse them, if they don't turn up without a genuine excuse fine, fine them my dentist wont treat people unless they pay a fine ex amount per minute late. I agree totaly with what he does, and hes a decent fellow.

However how can ony same they just because you pay you are somewhat better client. I have come across some rich people are are arrogant, selfish greedy snobs but I wouldn't say everyone is like that hopefully its the miniority.

You ought to hear some of the awful stories I hera in my local paper/radio about people having to YES pull there own teeth put with pliers, now something needs to be done.

donteatthat

26-01-2005, 8:04 PM

lol I didnt suggest that my more "deserving" patients were ones who were paying. I had plenty of lovely, genuine, decent non-paying patients and I had no problem with treating those patients. Like all systems tho, there are some that abuse it, and in my experience the main abusers were non-payers. They expected mountains movced for them, at their convenience only, and two-fingers to everyone else.
Maybe thats a symptom of the area I was working - not too far from Scarborough actually.

Queenie

26-01-2005, 8:21 PM

.......... They expected mountains movced for them, at their convenience only, and two-fingers to everyone else.
Maybe thats a symptom of the area I was working - not too far from Scarborough actually.

Oooh err!!! Actually, I think that that is the way society is going now - not just an attitude extended to Dentists! (Nor determined by income!!). The "I-want-it's-MY-right-and-I-demand-it-now-or-I'm-going-to-blah-blah-blah attitude does appear to be more prevalent these days!

I think it is a crying shame that the NHS, in *all* it's services, is being steadfastly eroded. But, as we all know, those in Government who are creating these situations can well afford to BE private patients; sadly, once again, it's your good old Joe Bloggs who is paying the *real* price ;)

Yet again, it's the minority who have ruined things for the majority - whichever way you look at it ;)

endojedi

26-01-2005, 8:33 PM

Being an NHS dentist is like driving a car at 90 miles an hour, it can work for a while but it isn't safe for the driver or the passenger or other road users!
Being a private dentist is like driving a car at 45 miles an hour, both passenger and driver get there and don't cause any carnage on the way.
Efficiency in dentistry is not the same as effectiveness.
I am a dentist and think that middle man insurance schemes like denplan are a con.
Get yourselves a fee per item private dentist, who comes recommended from a friend who has seen the dentist for >5 years.
If you are quoted for a lot of treatment, say that you are stuck for cash at the moment and could any of it be prioritised/delayed.
Most dentists will respond very sympathetically to honesty, and level with you about what can be delayed.
In dentistry you should look for value for money.
Like cheap parachutes and cheap contraceptives, bargain dentistry will cost you more in the long term.
Take it from an insider!!!

Poppy9

26-01-2005, 8:48 PM

3 friends are dentists. 1 private, 2 nhs. Two relations are Dental Nurses and one is practice manager. Also friendly with a couple of GP's. Dentists all admit to earning more than GP. Also admit they would be financially better off in private practice. Their complaints weren't with patients - perhaps they were lucky with their practices just with nhs paperwork etc. In my practice the only person late for the appointment was the dentist. At least 15 minutes often 30 minutes. I like others accepted this as I appreciate its not possible to be totally accurate with appointment times. It seems strange that people who do not bother to brush their teeth bother visiting the dentist.

My rough costings include the cost of salaries of receptionists and dental nurses. I reiterate - does anyone know a poor dentist? The ones I know live in very expensive houses, take min of 3 holidays per year and have luxury cars. They do not pretend they have a poor standard of living.

I fully understand that graduates are not obliged to enter state service. It costs (per House of Commons response to MP question) an average of £140,000 over 5 years to train a dentist. I agree with a previous poster that they should be committed to providing NHS dentistry for x number of years. From info available on the web the quoted cost of training a solicitor is £10,000 as part of the cost is funded by private practice which a graduate needs to enter to complete their qualifications.

Tax payers are already paying for health care - dentists are always telling us that oral healthcare is as important as body healthcare - via our NI contributions. So to say we are not investing in our own oral health is incorrect. We have not had a service at rock bottom prices. In addition to handing over 8% of our salary in NI contributions (this excludes the employers contribution) we also pay additional cost everytime we visit the dentist. A root filling just cost a relative £100. Being a working single parent with limited income meant she had to wait 2 months to afford the treatment. What about people who cannot afford this extra cost. It all sounds very reasonable to say it's costs from just £14 per month but for a family of four that is £56 - nearly £700 per year.

It was recently reported a teenager died because of a mouth abscess that he couldn't get treated quickly because there were no NHS dentist in his area.

From the two dentists who have posted I still cannot see a substantial reason for them going private. No reason has been given why they are happy (in my practice at least) for 2/3rds of their patients to be left with a dentist. Ok so you are fed up with your terms and conditions. Welcome to the real world. Ask anyone if their conditions have been eroded over the years and they will say yes. Retail staff now have to be available to work over 7 days per week. Shops only close for Xmas day. Ask them how they feel. Sadly they do not have the luxury of going private - even though many shops are providing an essential service. They too would like shoppers to pay more for their shopping to give them better working conditions and wages but it won't happen. (no I am lucky I donot work in retail).

Toothsmith

26-01-2005, 8:49 PM

<However how can ony same they just because you pay you are somewhat better client.>

I dont think he was saying that. He said 'more deserving patients' there was no mention of whether they paid or not

<I have come across some rich people are are arrogant, selfish greedy snobs>

So have I!! And when I converted my practice to private 5 years ago, most of them thankfully left, to search out some other mug on the NHS whose life they could then make a misery. The rest I asked to leave!

What a lot of people seem to miss in this argument is that it is NOT the people with the least money who are forced out of dental care by a dentist switching to private care, it is those who VALUE the service the least.

Even though I kept a lot of my NHS patients who were exempt from charges on the NHS when I converted (I just got rid of the pains in the bottom who mucked me around) Many of those NHS patients asked to go private (And joined Denplan!) in order to access the extra services I was providing. I Added two new surgeries to my practice and brought in hygienists and generally really got going with a truly preventative dental service.

Exactly the sort of thing the Government now wants to throw out the window with it's 'new contract' ( do you remember the press reports when the NICE agency made it's recommendations that more people could go longer than 6 months in between check ups? - Have you asked yourselves why that report came out? Could it be to do with the right royal c**k up the Government have made over NHS dental provision, or do you believe you can go 2 years in between dental visits?

People who value a service will pay for it - look at all the Sky dishes in run down housing estates. Those that see no value in healthy teeth will moan at even the paultry NHS fees.

Poppy, I did think your figures for expenses were quite accurate, until I realised you were talking PER YEAR!!! Come on love! What planet are you from? Premesis rent & overheads £15 000 per year!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

Have you any idea of the red tape and general crap we have to put up with in terms of regulations, insurances, waste disposal. I also notice you have us working 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year. To make your figures right, we'd need a patient in the chair being worked on for every minute of those 2080 hours. When do I get to do the paperwork? When can I take my wife & two boys on holiday? when am I supposed to go on courses to keep my skills up to date (And that I have to fund out of my own pocket?) :confused:

Your bit about Denplan is not correct either, although I do know some practices that do only see patients who sign onto a scheme. (Denplan is just one of many, although it probably is the most well known). I guess you are just basing you comments on personal experience. I have Denplan Patients, and fee-per-item patients too. So long as the bills are paid, I don't really mind.

In reply to Plumpmouse, dentists are independent contractors, and they can say who they take on and who they don't. Children, adults, smelly people, idiots who expect them to work 52 weeks per year, anyone.

This new contract which the Government is trying to force through, (but keep delaying - originally it was supposed to be April 2004, then it was delayed to Oct 04, now it's Apr 05) Will make matters a lot worse. The only dentisits left in the NHS will be the ones who really don't believe they can convert their practices for one reason or another, or those approaching retirement and holding out for the (it must be said) rather good NHS pension.
I myself am planning to privatise childrens services as well, just because I cannot be forced to take responsibility for the dental health of my child patients if I am directed by the powers that be to only see them yearly.

Never has the old adage been truer - YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

I will leave you all with a question. If you are all really concerned that the poorer members in society have no NHS dental care, then why don't those of you who can afford it, join a private dental practice, pay your £10-20 quid a month and free up some places in NHS practices for these poor souls?

nearlyrich

26-01-2005, 9:02 PM

We have a problem with dentists or lack of dentists in East Lancashire, a guy was on TV earlier in the week because he goes to Poland for dental treatment rather than pay a private dentist in his home town. Personally I think that's going a bit far no pun intended but there have been queues for 3 hours for a new practice which opened nearby with 1000 NHS places after all the other local dentists either retired or went Private only.

My own dentist of 30 plus years standing went private in 1991, on NHS rates I pay about £30 per year for 2 checkups and scale and polish, the Denplan minimum in 1991 at this practice was £15 per month. So why would I want to pay an extra £150 for exactly the same service ? I declined the invitation to be fleeced explaining that I pay quite a substantial amount of NI contributions every month and didn't want to pay extra for the only service I could get value from.

I managed to get us all registered with another NHS dentist fairly locally and he is a much better dentist than the previous one so the story has a happy ending, for now. Next problem is this dentist is almost ready to retire so we will have to start looking for a new dentist again. How much is a cheap flight to Poland anyone?

Just for the record I have always cleaned my teeth in the waiting room bathroom before seeing the dentist, always paid my bills on leaving the surgery and never abused a receptionist or dentist even if they deserved it.:p

shrek101

26-01-2005, 9:06 PM

I actually get free dental due to me being on family credit. However I do value the job dentists do. I also appreciate that dentists do have some difficult customers but so do many other people who deal with the general public.

I don't pretend to know the ins and out as to why many are leaving the profession, some of it is down to money, but I am sure it not a true reflection of what is going on.

Perhaps if the government and the dentist profession got together and sorted this problem out and as I said before had an independent review regarding payments, hours etc

The general public are just piggy in the middle and ultimately are the ones that suffer particularly those who can least afford it.

Toothsmith

26-01-2005, 9:08 PM

<How much is a cheap flight to Poland anyone?>

I'd wait if I were you - all their dentists are supposedly coming here!! :)

Toothsmith

26-01-2005, 9:11 PM

If anyone is interested, there was an excellent program on radio 4 today. If you go to the BBC website, go to You and Yours, and click on 'listen again, you'll be able to hear it.

endojedi

26-01-2005, 11:29 PM

Coming up to election time, both patients (Consumer Association) and dentists should be campaigning for tax relief for dentistry- after all the money is spent in the country,not on foreign imports and foreign holidays, the dentists pay tax on it (yes poppy at 40% cause we are all so bourgeois and it means the patients get something back for being proactive and looking after their oral health.

There should be a high quality core service for exempts and the NHS should only exist for these and children.

Why should taxpayers pay twice? -once for private dentistry and again for propping up the governments !!!!!!!! contract promising NHS dentistry for all.
The tory government let the private genie out of the bottle in 1992 with their 7.2% fee slash, and its never going to go back in.

The government is wasting YOUR money on dental access centres, recruiting dentists from third world countries and ploughing money into advertising the new contract which encourages dentists to supervise the neglect of their patients oral health and lie to them about how often they need to see a dentist.

Any middle man interference in the relationship between a patient and a dentist is unwanted whether that is a government contract or a capitation scheme like denplan.

NHS dentistry is the laughing stock of the world and dentists from the US advice their patients not to go near one, if on holiday and suffering toothache.

Britain is the 4th largest economy in the world, and should not have a prehistoric dental service!

ON Poppy's point about forcing dental graduates to work in the NHS after graduating-WE ARE NOT IN CHINA-dental students treat patients for free while in university, give up at least 5 years to train unpaid,are competitively selected on A level results having a minimum 2 A and a B, graduate with £15,000 worth of debt (soon to grow enormously with tuition fees),sit countless exams through training and have to work on the NHS for a year as part of Vocational Training.

Only rich kids could afford this if we implemented your plan--have you heard of the free market?

Remeber if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys!
I would retrain as a plumber, if I was forced to work on the NHS!!!!

27-01-2005, 1:27 AM

was going to mention this, as that is how I found mine

plumpmouse

27-01-2005, 12:15 PM

In reply to Plumpmouse, dentists are independent contractors, and they can say who they take on and who they don't. Children, adults, smelly people, idiots who expect them to work 52 weeks per year, anyone.

Thanks for answering my question. I had thought someone had once told me that dentists were obliged to take on children. Obviously they were wrong. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

weaver

27-01-2005, 1:33 PM

Weaver

Have you tried getting a private dentist to take you if you are not on Denplan? They only really want Denplan patients because they are assured of a set amount of money per month.

I too was going to use private health insurance until a colleague pointed out that no dentists locally would treat you privately if you weren't on Denplan.

Thanks for this Poppy9 Ive just checked with the dentist and as long as the fee is paid it does not matter who you are with, they give you a bill to claim fees back from the health insurance company. (glad you mentioned this though)

My dentist as stated wanted to charge me 10.00 a ,month, a friend I recommended a year ago has been given the option of paying 5.00 a month, the reason - they only attend once a year. Im sorry to all the dentists reading this but I feel this is unfair and unjust. A set fee should be equal for all, its like many insurance policies, some you win some you loose. I wouldnt mind but when I queried this with the dentist they said when you next visit the dentist assesses you and decides which policy is best. The paper work we both got stated 10.00, so you take out the policy and then find that you could have got away with 5.00 a month, it stinks.

Im NOT saying ALL dentists do this and Im not getting at all dentists, I just feel that my old dentist doing this is wrong. He also cancelled an appointment I had made 6 months earlier because he was going on holiday, (not got a problem with that - we all deserve one )the only appointment I could get was 6 months later when he had gone private ( seems a little suspect to me )

The dentist was excellant as many are and its not a job I would like, I think you all deserve medals as do any health care professionals but I feel the public is being let down mainly by the way the funding is going and this is run by Government ( thats another soap box debate)

chpetros

27-01-2005, 7:46 PM

Here's exactly how much the government values your teeth:
A filling on a child pays less than a pizza.
A root canal treatment on a front tooth, on which outcome the future of your tooth depends on, pays less than a playstation game.
How can anyone expect a quality service with this kind of funding is beyond me. I have several american dentist friends and they all tell me the same thing: the quality of british dentistry they see is consistently the worst in the developed world. If one of their patients moves to or visits Britain, they warn him NOT to seek NHS dental treatment under any circumstances (this was actually reported in the parliament some weeks ago). They know of the money we're getting paid and they wonder how we're able to run a dental practice. Meanwhile, british oral health has been turned into an international joke (see the Simpsons and the "Big Book of British Smiles").
The fact is that NHS dentistry is grossly underfunded and the only way dentists are able to make money is by compromising treatment and cutting corners. Some do it a lot and get rich, others become frustrated and go private or get poor!
The government knows it cannot afford to pay for decent dentistry but they won't admit it. They tried to open their own practices and hire dentists to do the work, naming them Dental Access Centres (cool name, huh). It turned out that it took 5 times more money to treat each patient... they might have sent them off to a private dentist and saved a few of the taxpayers' quids! But no, "private" is anathema in this country that is rapidly turning into a socialist nightmare.
I'm tired of seeing patients on chronic benefits complaining because I charged them 10 quid due to their failure to attend a 30-minute appointment, while at the same time sporting TWO posh video camera mobiles. My mobile is 5 years old. I don't have a car and I live in a 1-bedroom flat. I once saw a patient 8'o clock in the evening, rid him of the "terrible pain" he was feeling, then asked for the 10 pounds I was entitled to under the NHS. He told me he didn't have any money, all while holding a bag with brand new trainers he had just bought before he came in. F**k those people and f**k the NHS.
I'm tired of having to see 30-40 patients a day while the politicians who whine about greed dentists get private treatment for their perfect white smiles. I don't want to get rich, but I want to work in humane conditions, using modern materials and equipment, like my colleagues in US, Europe, Australia, New Zealand,Japan, hell everywhere else, do.
For those of you who pay National Insurance contributions and expect something in return... tough luck, you're not going to get it. I pay contributions as well, which have expanded to a 8% supertax, and for what? So that I get 7 whole minutes with my GDP (7 minutes, for f**k's sake). Or that I have to wait 6 months to get an appointment with a consultant? That's a poor service and a disgrace of a health service. Maybe it's to support the poor soul who has been unemployed for a zillion years, gets drunk everynight and now he wants me to fix the teeth he's broken in last night's "fight with the lads". And of course he wants it done right away, and he won't bother to show up for 2-3 appointments, wasting the time I could spend with an OAP in genuine need.
I'm terribly sorry for my rant, but the NHS isn't any health service at all; it lies in shambles and dentistry isn't different. It's high time the government's monopoly in this field ended, so that everyone could start taking responsibility for his own health. As for myself, the first chance I get I'm getting off the circus operation that is NHS dentistry and I'm not ever looking back!

Poppy9

27-01-2005, 7:49 PM

What a lot of people seem to miss in this argument is that it is NOT the people with the least money who are forced out of dental care by a dentist switching to private care, it is those who VALUE the service the least.
You are assuming that all working people have the same level of income as yourself. Take a family of 4 with just 1 parent working as say a school teacher earning £30k per year. Can they afford to pay the £56 a month extra? Why should they on top of NHS. Is dentistry a health service?

or do you believe you can go 2 years in between dental visits?
Many have to due to lack of NHS dentists. In 20 years the only treatment I have required is 1 filling. My partner in 25 years has only had 1 filling. Do we really need to see a dentist twice a year or just a hygenist?

People who value a service will pay for it - look at all the Sky dishes in run down housing estates. Those that see no value in healthy teeth will moan at even the paultry NHS fees.I reiterate - working people are already paying for this service through NI

Poppy, I did think your figures for expenses were quite accurate, until I realised you were talking PER YEAR!!! Come on love! What planet are you from? Premesis rent & overheads £15 000 per year!!!!!!!!!! :eek: a £200,000 mortgage would cost £1000 per year. On top you have heating, electric, insurance. More than 1 dentist is often based in a practice.

Have you any idea of the red tape and general crap we have to put up with in terms of regulations, insurances, waste disposal. I also notice you have us working 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year. To make your figures right, we'd need a patient in the chair being worked on for every minute of those 2080 hours. When do I get to do the paperwork? When can I take my wife & two boys on holiday? when am I supposed to go on courses to keep my skills up to date (And that I have to fund out of my own pocket?) :confused:
A simple calculation used to work out most people average wage. I forgot you dentists seem to think you have a right to a better life than the rest of us. If you saw 20 patients a week over a year that totals 1040 patients. Seeing them twice a year gives you 40 patients a week. If you wished to say have 10 weeks holiday a year then that is 48 patients a week. If you worked the average of 40 hours a week - like say police officers (which no doubt you expect to be a free service to protect you) then you have almost an hour per patient. Given that the majority just have a quick check up. Bags of time for paperwork.

Your bit about Denplan is not correct either, although I do know some practices that do only see patients who sign onto a scheme. (Denplan is just one of many, although it probably is the most well known). I guess you are just basing you comments on personal experience. I have Denplan Patients, and fee-per-item patients too. So long as the bills are paid, I don't really mind.From mine and colleague and family experience. No one I know has been quoted less than £14 per month per person for joining.

Never has the old adage been truer - YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.Seems to be true. Middle class people who have lost touch with reality.

I will leave you all with a question. If you are all really concerned that the poorer members in society have no NHS dental care, then why don't those of you who can afford it, join a private dental practice, pay your £10-20 quid a month and free up some places in NHS practices for these poor souls?Again you quote as if all members of a family are working. I reiterate most people only earn the average wage (thats why its the average) and feel they already contribute sufficently for this service. They are already paying for anything extra than a simple checkup as mentioned if you need a root filling on the NHS thats £100 please.

I am really sadden by the apparent selfishness of the replies from Dentists. As mentioned it costs over £140k to train a dentist. Second only to the cost of training a doctor. They have trained in a profession of which they know is essential to the public wellbeing. They knew when entering the profession what the employment conditions and rewards were. They seem to have tried to blackmail the government into abandoning efforts to contain costs.

I leave you dentists with a question. If you need an ambulance at an accident would you be happy to pay an extra £15 per month for this service or else make your own way to the hospital. If you need a police officer to attend a crime at your house would you pay £15 per month in case you need this service. These groups of people work long unsocialable hours. Could you working from 7pm to 7 am dealing with all sort of crimes and people and injuries. They truley risk their life do you? Doctors make life and death decisions everyday - do you? These people all work longer hours than dentists for less money. You too have a monopoly and yet are full of self righteousness and pity.

jinxsi

27-01-2005, 7:59 PM

I turned private recently and this is why.

Back in 1992 the government cut funding to NHS dentistry by 7%. Funding for NHS dentistry has been cut every year since. Initially I coped just tightening the purse strings etc but eventually I reached the stage where I had to make choices about closing down and moving on or taking some radical steps. A dentist friend of mine went bankrupt at this time.

After 18 years of 100% NHS dentistry I decided to subsidise NHS treatment through doing some private treatment. This worked and the practice finances recovered. As annual NHS dentistry funding awards were being remorselessly outstripped by dental inflation I had to continually increase the percentage of private to NHS just to stay on level ground.

Another crisis point was reached about 3 years ago when again practice finances deteriorated and something had to be done. I took a risk and invested in technology that allowed me to carry out high tech private dentistry. This worked and about 2 years ago we reached a situation where we were 50% NHS and 50% private and practice finances were stable. We were still taking on NHS patients and providing quality care. NHS patients were oblivious to being subsidised and private patients were oblivious to subsidising them.

Then came a huge influx of NHS patients. They came from miles away and they had mouths full of cavities and needed loads of dentistry….NHS dentistry. We coped initially, appointment waiting times went from 2 –3 weeks to 2-3 months and the ratio of NHS to private went the wrong way and the practice finances started to go haywire again. My way of stabilizing finance and get back to providing a decent service for all my patients was to stop taking new NHS patients. This allowed me to slowly work through the huge influx of NHS treatment that I had taken on. Eventually, as my NHS : private ratio worked its way back up to 50% stability returned.

Its important to appreciate that the only way I can stay in business in the NHS is through my private income subsidizing NHS treatment.

Then came the news of the new contract. I wont go into these details but suffice to say there was enough uncertainty and DoH threats to make me worry about my ability to mix NHS and private treatment in the future. I was also concerned that the DoH would make it more difficult for dentists to leave the NHS once they signed up to the new contract. …there’s a lot more that I wont go into.

I felt I had no choice but to selectively withdraw from the NHS. I continue to treat exempt patients and children on the NHS and I have set fees for private patients that I feel are very realistic. My objective is not to get rich quick, but to be able to continue to provide a good service for my patients and remain solvent.

I did not want to leave the NHS, in leaving I have lost a reliable well paid job and a fabulous pension but I felt pushed out and I cant help feeling that the government agenda is to get as many dentists out of the NHS as possible….but that’s just the conspiracy theorist in me.

Personally I feel that the best solution for dentistry in this country is for the available government budget for dentistry to pay for comprehensive treatment for children and exempt patients and a core service for everyone else. If they want comprehensive treatment for all on the NHS then funding must go up by about 100%….and some of that must go to dentists. Recently the government has allocated millions for “dentistry” but the NHS dentist is getting 2% this April - that is not going to attract dentists back from the private sector.

Anyway, for anyone who has got this far here are a few personal statements:

Expenses for the tax year 2003 – 2004 were £132 000 (single dentist)
I hate denplan
I have seen poor dentists, even bankrupt ones.
Some doctors earn more than some dentists and visa versa….obviously.
The government is throwing money away with both hands opening access centers, can someone table a question at prime ministers questions asking how much access centers cost?
IMO it is impossible to carry out quality dentistry in a practice funded only by NHS.
I don’t understand the “I pay my NI therefore I am entitled to NHS dentistry” argument.
Why isn’t NHS dentistry on the NHS escalator?

Bye
Jinxsi

Willowrose

27-01-2005, 11:41 PM

I have skimmed through the postings on dentistry. Forgive me if i have missed some essential pionts but some thinngs jumped out so I wanted to post again. Some people feel that they should have good quality dentistry cheaply because they pay large NI contributions. I could not agree more. We all pay NI in order to fund the NHS The general public feel quite rightly that dentistry is part of the NHS. Why doest someone tell the government that!!!
We have all been ripped off and i mean dentists(me) and the public. of course the public should have good quality dentistry but for years the public have had to pay for their own dentistry. Did you not realise that the fees you paid at the dentist were set be the government and that they put them up every year! The dentist NEVER got any more money for it - you just paid more and more. I presume the NI payments just went into medecine.
Most dentists just want to provide a good quality core service free of charge and let patients pay for cosmetic work. The trouble is that no government will allow this as it would mean that they had to admit that the service was not free. IT HAS NEVER BEEN FREE TO THOSE NOT ON BENEFITS. those on benefits can get EVERYTHING free crowns bridges veneers -the lot.
Apparently it would be political suicide to deny these people free treatment so every one else pays. At this moment in time if you pay you pay 80% of your treatment cost. This is a political issue and we should all stand together against ity but as far as I can see there is no party that would alter the situation so we are all stuck with it.
Postings from the general public on this site about fees for NHS treatment seem to be very strange. There have been a few postings quoting £100 for root canal treatment. This is rubbish. NHS treatment costs are set out in the SDR published by the DoH. NO root canal treatment on the NHS costs £100-Max for molar endodontics is £60. This is in itself a ridiculously low figure and the NHS dentists that do it for that charge are ripping no one off but themselves. Private charges for molar endodontics will be about £400 per tooth which is much more realistic for the work involved.
Please Poppy9 give up on your stupid assertation that dentists are so rich with ther 3 holidays per year etc etc Do you live in London? are you talking about private practioners verses young hospital house doctors. GP's earn about £90k per year the equivalent GDP earns about£55k--I know it is a lot of money for both of them but that is a different socialist argument and not what we are discussing here.
It seems to me that the clear thread is that the public would like to have cheap good quality dentistry provided by the NHS. There are very many dentists who would be happy to provide it but no government of whatever colour is willing to pay for it.They con the public in to thinking that it is available then blame the dentists for not providing it. All of you out there calling dentists greedy are just falling into the trap they have set you. That is exactly what they want you to do!

Willowrose

28-01-2005, 12:04 AM

Have just read poppy9 reply to toothsmith it seems that her calculations on running a practice were made with no reference to my own posting on the estimated costs of running an nhs practice. I suggest that she re reads my posting on costs and refers to her own friends who are dentists and asks them how much their outgoings are per month before she decides to post again. Of course if what she says is true she could make her fortune by setting up a course which shows the rest of us at the coal face how to keep our costings down to her marvellous figures. I have obviously been doing it all wrong so far and would be happy to pay for her expertise to learn how to save my self massive amounts of money per month. Of course i would spend it on an enormous house and 3 holidays a year in order to become like her friends.
Yours
an nhs dentist with a semi det ,3 kids not in private schools and an old and small rover car and no foriegn holiday for a number of years!
What am I doing wrong???

Poppy9

28-01-2005, 12:06 AM

chpetros

28-01-2005, 7:39 AM

As previously mentioned I live in Wales. My dentists friends do take 3 foreign holidays per year. Typically skiing in Jan - US - August and Canaries in October. Cars one has a jag and a people carrier. My own dentist has a car Mr P would die for - something sporty which always brings out the comment - aahhhhhhh look at that car from the men :)

Re £100 for root filling. I will be on the phone 1st thing to my dentist (or rather Mr P will). He paid 6 months ago a total of £126.45 (I am looking at the receipt now). He paid for a check up, scale and polish, x ray and root filling.

Your friend paid 126.45 for a check up, scale+polish, xrays, root filling and then something on top of the root canal - either a simple filling or a crown. So thats 126.45 for 5 items of treatment, not for 1! 5 items that took at least 1-2 hours of a decent dentist's time and carried a lot of expenses in materials.
Now, 126.45 just for a root canal would also be a real bargain. With that kind of money it would be impossible to use NiTi files, thermally condensable GP and other contemporary materials, as you would end up with a bill far greater than the profit.
The problem is that the government just doesn't understand that it can't expect us to provide modern quality with 1950s fees. Most practitioners I know are tired of doing piecework on the NHS nand want to switch to private for the opportunity to work with a manageable number of patients, doing quality work, for the same income, not to get richer. A british dentist sees more patients than any other dentist in any developed country. At 30-40 patioents/day he soon becomes a hazard to himself and to his patients, but he has to keep doing to stay afloat on the NHS... the treadmill effect.

jinxsi

28-01-2005, 7:49 AM

man goes to the shop buys a pound of tomatoes for £1.00, a pound of apples for £1.00 and a pound of bananas for £1.00. Comes out and says "Yikes, £3.00 for a pound of apples, thats expensive".....happens all the time.

jinxsi

Toothsmith

28-01-2005, 10:41 AM

Poppy,

Someone once said, "It is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

You obviously have some sort of deep problem with dentists. Do you have the same problem with other people who study hard at school, get through university, work hard to improve their skills, take significant personal financial risk in borrowing a lot of money to set up a business, and then manage to enjoy the fruits of their efforts?

I became a dentist because it suited what I am good at. I also became a dentist because it is a secure profession, and the rewards are good (Both financial and personal) if you are prepared to put the work in. I was still a student when lots of my schoolfriends were out in the world earning. Since I have qualified I have probably paid more tax in total than all of them. I have easily repaid my training costs. I do not apologise for having financial security. Do you have a problem with that?

You still seem to have a problem with this monthly/yearly thing as you seem to think £200 000 costs £1000 per year. Prehaps you could introduce me to that bank?

Whilst we are on that subject, you show here that you have no business experience whatsoever, as you cannot get a 'mortgage' to buy a dental practice. You have to borrow money on business terms which is significantly more expensive.

<You are assuming that all working people have the same level of income as yourself. Take a family of 4 with just 1 parent working as say a school teacher earning £30k per year. Can they afford to pay the £56 a month extra? Why should they on top of NHS. Is dentistry a health service?>

I assume nothing, but yes, this is exactly who my patients are. When a practice goes private, it does not loose all it's old patients and have a new lot roll up in Bentley's and Ferraris. They are the same people. Plus, I haven't privatised kids yet. The only difference is the ones that stay probably have a better grasp of reality than you.

Just to give you some real numbers, I saw my accountant last Friday for my end of financial year talk. My Tax - allowable expenditure for 2003/04 (Not all expenditure is allowable against tax) was £125551. That means my 48 patients per week (Planet Poppy figures again)would need to pay me at least £50 per visit before that was covered. Then there's repayment of my loans - currently at about £200 000 and costing me about £1500 per month (This is not allowable against tax, only the £8483pa intrest is tax deductible) that's an extra £8 per visit per patient. Now, pay for me - Sorry - of course, I'm not allowed to earn anything am I :rolleyes: But let's just have a bit of fun and pretend I earn about £40000 - about the same as a decent plumber. That's about an extra £16 per patient per visit. Then there's a pension for myself, cos heaven forbid that I'd sponge off the taxpayer in my old age. One should generally aim to invest about 15% of one's income in a pension so that's an extra £2.40 per patient visit. Not all building maintenance costs are tax deductible, so let's add £2 to cover that, and an extra £3 to cover contingencies like equipment needing renewing, temporary staff, sickness, This all tallies up to £81 per patient visit. £162 per year = £13.50 per month. Pretty close to your quoted Denplan minimum monthly charge

This is for a practice with me full time, my associate 2 days per week, and employing a practice manager, one full time nurse, three part time nurses and two part time hygienists.

This is far from an accurate picture, but it is ballpark and it does blow £15000 per year expenses out of the water. Even I see more than 48 patients per week but there are many who need a lot more than 2 visits per year. There are NHS practices that, in order to survive need to get through in excess of 80 patients per dentist per DAY. God knows what the quality of that work must be like.

The public is RIGHT to be angry, but direct that anger where it is deserved.The Government is not trying to "Drive down costs" it is trying and succeeding in driving dentistry out of the NHS. With an election looming, now is the time to kick up a fuss. It will be too late in a few months time, as the lying B*****ds will have been elected again, and then the won't give a flying fig.

jimmylaff

28-01-2005, 10:59 AM

Poppy9 :eek: :confused: :mad: :(

Imagine you are a fish and chip shop owner. You pay for potatoes, batter, oil, staff, equipment and the other usual business expenses, heat, light, phone, advertising, mortgage or rent, and waste disposal. (and boy, does this list go on!). And quite likely you had to buy the business itself too.

Unfortunately, someone else fixes the price at which you can sell your chips at. And it bears no relation to what the costs of making the chips are.

So you work faster, you sell more chips, trying to keep your profitability the same, despite the eroded margins. Then the price fixer slashes your fixed price, devastating your margins further.

So you work even faster, and you have to start to cut corners, as there is now absolutely no way you can sell the chips at a profit without.

And some of your customers start asking for new products: saveloys and curly french fries. You can command a premium price for these. And you can take your time preparing them; you present them beautifully, and the customers appreciate the time and care. You notice that your saveloy sales start to subsidise your chip sales. The saveloy customers don't!

Poppy****9, your gross generalisations about dentists are offensive in the extreme. My practice profit last year was £49k between 2 dentists. We have personally invested £140k to generate that income, and this is not giving us a decent living, never mind a return on the investment.

This is why dentists are leaving the NHS in droves, and your narrow minded poisoned vitriol will only increase my resolve to reduce my NHS committment.
By the way: I have zero private patients, but after reading your postings this will change. Why should I invest the amount I have, work 41 hours a week clinically, another 20 or so on admin, take home £25k a year and work like a dog. Just because you think I have a duty because the state (no, not the NHS: again, get your facts right!) PART funded my education. Get off your soap box and join us in the real world. A world where dentists make the personal investment to set up in practice, and then, not unreasonably, expect a lifestyle of some minor comforts.

If you can find any mortgage lender who will lend £200k for 1000 a month, please send him/her my way. They are as big a mug as me for continuing to provide NHS dental treatment.

Get a life.
Get some common sense.
Get your facts right.

Just
Get out of here!
jimmylaff

Poppy9

28-01-2005, 3:39 PM

£1000 per year should have read per month as I am sure you are well aware.

From the example of my previous dental practice based on the number of patients they said they were taking on (in the letter clearly says 1000 per dentist - 4 dentists so 8000 current patients will be dropped)

Dental practice
Dentist 1 Dentist 2 Dentist 3 Dentist 4 Total
No. patients 1,000 1,000 1,000 1,000 4,000

assume all pay £14 per mth each dentist gross income per year is £168,000 multiply by 4 for whole practice =£672,000

Annual Income £672,000
Out goings
4 dental nurse 2 receptionist -£90,000 (see my 1st post)

Premises - either rent or loan -£12,000
Premises costs -£3,000
Fees and materials as quoted £5k per month by another dentist -£60,000
Total expenses -£165,000
Net Income £507,000
Income per denitst before tax £126,750

Jimmylaff - I find you rude and offensive. Nice 1st post.

Toothsmith - just because you don't like my opinion and choose to be selective in the reading of my posts no need to be so rude. do you assume I live on benefits. How wrong. I too benefited from further higher education. I too have a professional qualification. I too ran a successful business for 10 years. With regard to premises. Our dentists in this town are all located in residential areas. My current dentist in a 3 storey terraced house. Ground floor is reception, waiting room and 4 surgerys. Upstairs is rented out to alternative therapists. Purchasing a house means that you can get a mortgage. A capital and interest mortgage on a fixed rate until 2007 costs £1127 per month. Of course an interest only mortgage would be a lot cheaper. Interest payments are then tax deductable. Alternatively you could buy the house privately and then rent the house back to the business. All rent is a business expense. At the end of 25 years you own the property. If not your main residence you would of course have to pay capital gains tax. With regard to other assets you invest in they are form part of your capital allocation. Generally assets are depreciated over 3 or 5 years.

No I have no problem with dentists collectively just the selfish ones who try to intimidate patients into signing up through fear. I also object to Denplan being virtually compulsory in the surgeries I have contacted. Even other dentists admit to it being a rip off.

Toothsmith

28-01-2005, 4:40 PM

You obviously know far more about all this than I do. Maybe you could get a job in the Department of Health - you'd fit right in there.

I've tried to put across what actually happens in the real world. Take what you want from my posts, I shall trouble you all no more.

Sheel

28-01-2005, 7:24 PM

Hi

I realise that this thread has been on the I Wanna board for a few days now , but i've only just got me 'powers' back and I think it more suited to the Marriages , Relationships , Health etc board , so i'm moving this over there

regards , Sheel

audoen

28-01-2005, 8:48 PM

Dear Poppy,
you may remember that you asked that some dentists should consider a reply to your original question, or more accurately your accusation that they were primarily personally financially motivated in their decisions to reduce their NHS commitments or leave the service entirely.
It probably surprised you that so many chose to answer your accusation.
I suspect that at this stage to only people reading these messages are the dentists who answered your call and yourself. The rest of the contriubuters have better things to do.
From what I have read your questions has been answered honestly and in full, and you should by now be drawing the inevitable conclusion that your initial assumptions and financial calculations were way off the mark.
You are in danger of becoming a characature of somebody digging themselves into an ever deeper hole.
You say that you have the benefits of a third level education and that you ran a business. The first assertion is not hard rto believe these days, but the second causes me some concern. Anyone who has run a business for any time would not make the simplistic assertions that you have in relation to business expenses. Your gross estimates for some major expenses may be right for your area, but you could just about double them for the South east of England. However it is the hundreds of recurring and other occasional unplanned minor expenses which can reduce profitibility and drive any business to the wall. Therefore I for one do not rate your business expertise.
You say that you have friends who are dentists. Maybe you do, I have no way of checking, but I would respectfully suggest that you don't show them the vitriol you have posted on this site. They may not consider you to be a friend any more.
You have a problem with Jimmy lafferty.
I met Jimmy at a conference in Belfast 3 years ago, and a more decent young chap you couldn't hope to meet. At that time he told me of his enthuasiasm for working within the NHS. I, being quite a bit older and having once shared that enthuasiasm in earlier years, tried to warn him about the risks of attempting to provide a decent, ethical service for NHS fees.
I take no pleasure in seeing my predictrions come true. It is a great shame that cynical politicians and senior civil servants have taken advantage of the Jimmy laffertys of this world and screwed them to the point that realise that they have to get out of the NHS or go to the wall.
You may choose to disbelieve his figures, and those of others, which amply demonstrate that an ethical dentist might be better off working as a junior manager in Dixons than working entirely within the NHS. But what you believe does not make much difference. Most dentists don't care what you believe. They know that many of their colleagues have gone bust. Some have even committed suicide. They know that the Department of Health mandarins and New Labour politicians are mostly a bunch of duplicitous liars.
For every person like you with a poisonous dislike for all dentists there are countless others who understand the problems and appreciate a professional service. They may not want to pay for it, but they believe that HMG is trying to shaft every dentist in the land and they won't stand for it.
Therfore the dentists don't need you, and your wretched attitude.
Now that leaves you with the problem.
Audoen

Sofa_Sogood

28-01-2005, 9:08 PM

It probably surprised you that so many chose to answer your accusation.
I suspect that at this stage to only people reading these messages are the dentists who answered your call and yourself. The rest of the contriubuters have better things to do.

Not this contributor ;)

I'm finding the whole topic fascinating, and learning, just by reading this, how this Government works. Or doesn't perhaps.

Only last week I was tutting about the money my husband paid out to his dentist. I'm seeing things in a different light this week.

Thanks, it's a very topical discussion which I've enjoyed reading.

DownintheMouth

28-01-2005, 9:23 PM

Dear poppy9 and others,

I am a Dentist (yes another one) and I can assure you that no-one is more annoyed/frustrated/helpless at the continued demise of NHS Dentistry than Dentists and their teams!!!

By all means blame us if you wish, but at the end of the day everyone paid their National Insurance to Government for their healthcare and politicians keep telling us and the public, that Health includes Dentistry. So who exactly isn't delivering that promise?

By all means go off on an "Anti-Dentist" campaign if you must - I can assure you that will not restore what was once a system that Dental workers were actually proud to be a part of, what seems mny years ago now.

I am in the very sad position of seeing NHS Dentists go bankrupt - I think it's about 100 per year. They get no sympathy because (obviously) they are perceived as rich or privaledged according to everyone else. Therefore their bankruptcy must have been caused by their own neglect/stupidity/fault, not by an inadequate NHS Dental system.

Unfortunately reality doesn't match this popular myth, with Dentists having the highest suicide rates of all healthcare workers and the third highest of all Professions. I won't mention early retirements due to chronic illnesses, bad backs etc, or depression caused by constant bad public press, people telling us they "hate the Dentist" on a daily basis and the high-tech, high manual skills required to treat minute teeth with even smaller holes with a high-speed drill doing 400,000 revs a minute with a diamond bur on a twitching patient, on a back tooth inside their body.

Who would be a Dentist ? Good question, you would have to be really dedicated to the job, otherwise one could easily go sideways into another saliva/blood/decay/rotting-food free profession like Law or Accountancy etc.
They certainly are not foolish enough to be totally limited by state funding cuts!!!

However I actually like my job despite the increasingly occuring pitfalls.
I believe Dentistry should be truly NHS - remember what that means!!!

Currently Dentistry is NOT National, not Health and not a Service - no wonder the public AND the Dental profession feel SO let down.

Let down by whom? Government, plain and simple and they want you, the public to bame the workers!

Also, why, if it's NHS, is the maximum patient's charge £378 ?

No-one pays to see their GMP, GMP's are so well funded compared to Dentists that they nearly have all had extensions paid for and added onto their Surgeries in the past and now many are moving on into Purpose Built complexes, again paid for by Government through PFI (that's Private!) funding initiatives, virtually cost-free to the doctors!

Good luck to Doctors, they deserve EVERY penny and more, yet even they still feel hard done by the NHS system - it still makes them do too much paperwork, spend less time with patients etc,etc.

NHS Dentists could only DREAM of been treated like this - indeed I know Dentists would actually take a substancial pay cut IF all their overheads, especially the buildings, high-tech equipment like digital X-rays, mouth cameras, lasers etc. were covered by Government. But they are not and NHS Dentists must carry ALL the risk/loans. Can you imagine asking Hospital Consultants to "fund" their own hospitals and staff, high-tech equipment etc and still stay totally NHS for decreasing funding etc?

If NHS Dentists had full capital and overheads funding, they could then practice to the high standards they were taught to - Wow.

I totally resent that I should have to reduce my commitment to the NHS because the gross funding, as wonderful as it may sound to you or any other member of the public, is so inadequate that I cannot provide Dentistry to the standards I was taught at University - let alone actually apply the new, advanced techniques I then learn on further courses etc.

Why should I HAVE to seek Private funding, directly from patients, so that I can asure them of my BEST standards, adequate time and the proper care they deserve?

I have 20 years experience, spent mainly in the NHS. I'm a reaonably skilled Clinician who has kept up to date. I cannot properly numb then fill or extract a tooth in a child in less than 30 mins, if this is to not hurt the child. I want that child to have a "good" Dental experience, even when they have stayed away and only come when a problem hurt, but could have been prevented in the first place.

Similarly, I wish to treat adults with the same amount of care and attention and skill, in what is after all a distressing situation for everyone.

So when some administration from the NHS comes in and says I have to "rush" this job and do it in half my normal time, should I?

Which corners of care would you like me to cut, to meet NHS targets?

Many Dentists are faced with such unsavory choices - as much as I dislike "going" Private, my choices are reduce my clinical standards and stay "NHS" in name, or seek proper funding for proper care from the Patient/parent!

Some other Dentists are lucky though and ARE getting some additional NHS funding/grants/advantages over the majority of "Family" Dentists, to see mainly toothaches in the very worst areas, so NHS direct can say there's a service. An example of this is the 48 Dental Access Centres (DAC's) that have been given £1millon pounds each to work - Wow!

Again, most Dentists can only dream of anything like this kind of funding, even in the Private sector in the middle of London!

So I want you to keep protesting Poppy9, and all you others, at MP's. The money is there to fund NHS Dentistry so that it's available to everyone AND free of costs too - just like for Medical Doctors.

It has only been through public protest at Government that they have "found" some extra funds for some "lucky" other few Dentists - keep the political pressure on before this next general election (in May?) ad maybe we'll get some improvement.

But please, please, please don't blame it all on Dentists, otherwise government Spin will have worked and you can guarantee the collapse of what is left of this "partial" Dental NHS system - it will then go the route of the Opticians, 90% Private!

I believe Government has more than enough funds to give everyone FREE NHS Dentistry and upport Dental Practices like Hospitals/Doctors for overheads - it would cost £4Billion a year compared to the curret underunding of £2Billion a year. However much that sounds, remember they are spending anywhere between £6Billion and the latest estimate of £30 Billion Just on a new NHS appointment system!

Which would you rather have - a true NHS Dental service UK, or a new "flash" computerised NHS appointment system that will probably crash abd turn out to be a white Elephant anyway.

I would LOVE to be able to come back into the NHS, but unfortunately Government Spin is still far removed from that possibility - so please protest LOUD and protest at the right quarters = MP's pre-Election !!!

Yours just as frustrated,

DownintheMouth.

paul4798

28-01-2005, 9:30 PM

Well I have had a look and found the following for you go to this page:-http://www.nhs.uk/england/dentists/MapSearchResults.aspx?pct=5H3

digh

28-01-2005, 11:34 PM

As a rich "single handed" NHS dentist I suppose I shouldn't moan, but since we're on the subject of why it's hard to find NHS dentists these days I feel I can contribute.
For those wishing to follow in my toothsteps this checklist may help.
As a single-handed dental practitioner you will have to learn to contend with inter alia:-
the Access to Medical Records Act, case reports, clinical waste,
confidentiality issues, consent, COSHH, credit licensing, cross
infection control, the Data Protection Act, the Disability Discrimination Act,
electrical testing, emergencies, fire regulations, first aid, fraud, the
Health and Safety Act, inspection and testing of all your equipment, your dental
laboratories, specialist referrals, the Medical Devices Directive, pathology specimens, radiology,
RIDDOR, solicitors, sterilisation and pressure vessels, vaccinations,
VDU regulations, water regulations and written policy documents e.g.
practice manuals. Absenteeism, appraisals, contracts
of employment, discipline, discrimination, firing, gifts, hiring,
interviewing, holidays, hygienists, locums, maternity and SMP,
paternity, part-time workers, operating a PAYE system, student loans,
stakeholder pensions, references and statutory sick pay.
Business rates, complaints, banks, consultants, credit cards, fee scales, leasing, merchant
services, logos, buildings insurance, personal health insurance, car insurance, public liability insurance, third party payment plans, the Dental Practice Board, Regional Dental Officer inspections, Dental Practice Advisor inspections, Primary Care Trust representatives, staff training, Xmas parties, your accountant, your bank manager, junk mail, marketing, suppliers, repairs, computers, drugs, gases, light bulbs, fire extinguishers, waiting room decor, air conditioning and web sites.
You also have to be an expert on adhesive resins, cements, amalgam, bad breath,
bleaching, diet, endodontics, needlestick injuries, the NHS, articles in
the newspapers, nickel, white fillings, implants, tooth germs, ozone and prescribing.
You will also need to design and delegate production of practice
information leaflets, signs, opening time notices, staff badges, appointment cards, childrens
stickers, checklists, compliments slips, daylists, diet analysis sheets,
labels for tablets, leaflets, letterheads, mailings, failed appointment
letters, private fee guides, quotations, receipts, prescriptions, rubber stamps, time-sheets and Xmas cards.
If you are unlucky you may also be required to cope, in no particular
order, with the delights of rent reviews and surveyors, leasing
regulations and subletting, parking problems, vandalism, security
alarms, flood protection, the PRS, the BSA, passport applications,
firearms applications and bad debts. If all this seems too easy I
suppose you could also apply to register for VAT as well!
Plus you have to do your main job (dentistry - the bit you get paid for) and have a family life.
Finally, assuming you live long enough, selling your practice. Apparently, although I haven't done this yet, selling your dental practice can be very stressful and take a long time as well.

aloha

29-01-2005, 12:19 AM

Aloha

I must first mention that I too am a dentist who 15 years ago was on the point of bankruptcy when I decided to give up NHS Dentistry before the arrival of the bailiffs.

Poppy9 is indeed a charicature of the type of patient who does not care who pays for her dental treatment as long as it is not her.

She states that she has had very little need for treatment over the years so her dental outgoings are negligible so pay as you go would seem to be a better bet for her than any insurance scheme on which she would lose out long term. Of course if her needs were higher and insurance would be a good buy then she might be keen but her dentist would then lose out so (s)he might not be so keen to take her on on that basis.

I am not surprised she seems to no longer be in business as she seems to wilfully ignore the figures that do not accord with her own ramblings and this may be a factor in her change of status. If she can confirm that she was the Bill Gates of her generation then I am sure we will all be willing to pay handsomely (at NHS rates) to gather at her feet to await her advice on how we should profitably organise our lives to better serve her needs at the lowest cost (which she might still find exorbitant)

She seems steadfastly commited to her own point of view in spite of any advice to the contrary and in my experience this type of behaviour is to be found amongst a minority of teachers or a majority of politicians.

Dentists start out with a genuine enthusiasm for helping their fellow (wo)man
but there is a minority of whom poppy9 seems to be a member that sour their outlook.

Eventually you have to exclude these people from your life for your own sanity and for the sake of those around you.

I would think that as this person claims to have friends who are dentists and doctors then she ought to be able to persuade some of the dental ones to take her on as a patient. If she can not then there must be a reason and I would surmise it is because they know first hand what a handful they would be taking on. All most dentists require are I would suggest are reasonable patients who are prepared to pay a reasonable fee for a reasonable service and to have reasonable manners whilst they are about it.

We all gel with different people and I am sure poppy9 will find the dentist for her eventually.

It will probably just take longer for her than most people.

I wish poppy9 all the best in her search for the ideal dentist and I wish said dentist all the best once (s)he has been found.

Poppy9

29-01-2005, 12:51 AM

Thank you to all the dentists who felt the need to persoanally attack me. A few dentists made sensible posts which I could identify with. Funny how so many of you are first time posters - as a 'old hand' at this MSE thing its very unusual. My posts were not personal to people - yours were. I only said on this forum what others are saying everyday in shops, offices, pubs etc.BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4041059.stm)

Yes you feel hard done by. So do 90% of the population. Every business proprietor is fed up to the back teeth (pardon the pun) with the excessive paperwork involved in running a business. Every year there are new rules and regs - especially if you are employing staff. I was shocked to read that the sucide rate for dentists was amongst the highest. You can see these statistics on the Govt. statistics site. govt stats (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/article.asp?ID=628&Pos=2&ColRank=2&Rank=672)

I have had no problem with the 2 dentists I have been with for 40 years. In fact they seem very eager to keep myself and my family. We are not abusive to dentists or doctors. We do not turn up late, we do not miss appointments, we do not turn up dirty and smelly, we pay all our bills on demand, we do not require much work. Seems like your ideal patients. Finally I would never want to be treated by a friend - for me this crosses boundaries.

Just for your info.I gave up my business to raise a family. I did not go bankrupt.

I am glad to say that the personal attacks made by new posters is not typical of more experienced MSE members. I too will take my leave and rejoin the real MSE members who do not become so abusive.

chpetros

29-01-2005, 1:18 AM

Hey Poppy9, chill!
I'm sure noone meant to personally attack you in the first place, but dentists as a profession have been abused by the government and the NHS since year 1 when the service started 50 years ago. Since year 1 the government began cutting fees, making us work harder for the same money. And unlike other businesses, we have no control over the prices we command. So, 50 years of abuse has made us a little touchy with that subject, especially with those who put us in the "greedy dentists" stereotype and don't seem to get it after we explain it to them. It's all politics in the end, as is with most things that don't work right in this world.
As a moneysaver, please remember that "the bitterness of poor quality will remain long after the sweetness of low price has evaporated" (don't remember who said that). If you're looking for a good, safe car, you don't go for the cheapest one, if you're looking for a private school to send your kids to you wouldn't go for the one with the lowest quotation, so don't do the same with your teeth.

paul56

29-01-2005, 9:08 AM

Dear Poppy
Sorry if you feel you've been insulted but if you refer to any group of people as 'con' men and 'blackmailers' (see your first post on this thread) then you are likely to get some pretty strong replies from those people.
Dentists on the whole are good people trying to a difficult job in difficult situations. Some of them have tried to explain those difficulties to you.
Take a step back, read their replies again and think.
Paul56

Willowrose

01-02-2005, 9:11 PM

I am sorry that you have received personal invective from some of the dental posters and I appreciate that you have valid concerns but as a dental poster whose replies I think you have read I would still like to say that i do not understand your sums regarding outgoings. I know that the BDA states that outgoings are at least 52% of gross. how that equates with private v. NHS I am not sure but all I can say is that earning a living as an NHS denist is hard grind and I would not like to be in the south where overheads are very high.
The trouble begins when you have to start cutting corners to make ends meet and that is the main problem for the NHS dentist. In the spirit of complete honesty and in order to try to show how things really are this month my returns from the NHS are £8100 from this I have to pay out £6200. I am hoping that I can offset some bills by paying only a portion of some of the bills this month. Obviously these bills will still have to be paid next month but I hope that if I work extra hard next month I might have the money to pay them. I hate having outstanding bills I worry about it all the time. I think it is clear that you have genuine concerns about getting a decent standard of care but as you can see I have equally genuine concerns about my capability to provide it.
P.S. have just had small child telling me how much he loves me and demanding ten kisses!!! he is my priority not knocking myself out to provide a cheap service for all and sundry at the behest of the government. In future i will do the best for my beloved children and also for the loyal patients that I treat and am lucky to have and for whom i have the deepest respect.

rach1973

12-02-2005, 2:06 PM

I think it is shocking that in this day and age that we can't get NHS treatment with a Dentist.
I have managed to register my eldest (nearly 2) with a dentist near by (as the other one is 10 miles away and NOT pushchair friendly :mad: :mad: :mad: )
Luckily they will take my youngest on when he turns 2 (he is 6 mths) but for myself I have no chance.
I was fortunate enough to recieve Free dental treatment as I was in the Navy for 8 years - but now I have left to be a SAHM I receive none.

What is the world coming to????????????

Willowrose

21-02-2005, 8:47 PM

Good luck to all out there seeking nhs dentists!!! It is deserved by all working people but I fear will be received by few. I dont know the answer but can only strive to look after my own(i.e those already registered with me). This has been a most informative post for all concerned. I only wish that the DoH has read it but that is unlikely!

DownintheMouth

23-02-2005, 12:03 AM

3.4% rise is only a % of the already greatly inadequate NHS Practice funding for high-cost premises, staff, equipment, materials, sterilisation and even more disposables etc.

My costs have risen by 20% this year, so to stay NHS will cost (lose us) 16.6% of total turnover, again. Yes I know that Dentists aren't felt sorry for, but this represents no rise for me and in fact cuts in the service - rush NHS people in and out even faster than already done perhaps? No thankyou!

If that wasn't bad enough, I heard a rumour that the new NHS patient charges (already decided) will now be delayed going public until AFTER the election (?May), because it will cause bad press, as the average patient will be charged much more than at present, perhaps very close to private Dental fees now!

In short, I would have to collect from the average patient MORE money from NHS patient charges to give to Government than I would be actually paid to do their work - no wonder they want that to be quiet until after the election!

Without doubt, many Dental colleagues who were waiting and hoping, will now have to accelerate to total Privatisation (including children) of Practices ASAP, if they wish to have a long-term future, providing properly funded Family Dental care.

I don't think Private patients will be happy to subsidise exempt NHS patients from their Private funding, will they?

Now I understand why Opticians and Chiropodists are 90% Private, I guess the real plans are to do this to Dentistry too, but subversively by a thousand cuts ?

Significant numbers of Family Dentists should not feel forced to leave the NHS like this - it's disgraceful, but what else can one do, apart get burnout or become another dental suicide statistic !!!

3.4% in the current NHS Dental Crisis is an insult, frankly. Maybe Government thinks they can import foreign Dentists from poland and india quicker than UK Dentists will leave the NHS?

This latest total NHS funding increase of a meagre 3.4% is about to turn the NHS exodus into a torrent, I suspect. Practice overheads needed about 50% improvement, before considering wages at all. This 3.4% is unbelieveable but to the average observer they probably think it's an actual wage rise and government spin will try to create that impression - until after the Elections anyway!

Yours DownintheMouth.

Willowrose

24-02-2005, 8:23 PM

3.5% I am stunned where did you hear that I was under the impression we had been given 2% an even more insulting offer considering how costs are rising!

DownintheMouth

25-02-2005, 12:33 PM

I heard it from the Doctors and Dentists review body report, a government quango who for years have overseen NHS Dental underfunding reduce quality patient NHS dental services further and further.

Mind you, even they expressed reservations, but their hands are tied by very tight government directives and restrictions too, so not independent really.

Unfortunately I suspect it's too late now, the irreversible damage has been done by this final cut to UK NHS dental needs.

Dentistry is about to join Opticians and Chiropody as a largely Private service.

I wonder which part of the body will be forced to leave the NHS next?

DownintheMouth

DownintheMouth

01-04-2005, 12:34 PM

Just a few more observations;

The papers were full of stories of Dental ques, apparently the latest one in Lincolnshire was over a MILE long to register with an NHS Dentist - that should go in the Guiness Book of records! But I wouldn't want to be that Dentist trying to cope with such a heavy workload, or frankly be one of the patients being processed through such a busy clinic either !

Secondly, Blair was interviewed on Sky News and had to deal with a poor old lady who was forced to extract her own tooth with pliers - She said "...three foreign dentists brought in to work in her home town of Scarborough had all been sacked, proved unqualified or proved unsatisfactory".

Mr. Blair admitted that there were bigger problems than they had anticipated and agreed it was not solved !
However, he still blamed Dentists as " We cannot force them to work in the NHS"!

Presumably though it's OK to force Dentists away from the NHS into the Private sector by providing chronic NHS Dental underfunding, mis-management and poor working conditions too !
Patients AND Dentists deserve better - Spin doesn't treat Dental problems !!!

Will this go down in history as some sort of (broken) record too ?

DownintheMouth.

Toothsmith

14-05-2005, 10:00 AM

EBay came up in the Tooth Whitening thread.

Today I noticed this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11843&item=4379482798&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) on the site.

I day left. Be quick!!! :rotfl:

P.S It's not with me!!!!

DownintheMouth

13-09-2005, 11:08 PM

Dear All,

Just to let you know there will be a "fire-sale" event where like fuel shortages recently, Dentists will feel forced to leave the NHS on 1st April 2006 by a new contract that is unbelievably bad !!!

Basically it seems even regular NHS patients are to be put on much longer waiting lists to be seen, to make room for those who couldn't be bothered to register in the past or follow advice to see a Dentist regularly.

This is how Government wants to solve it's Access targets problem, by putting those who tried their best, at the end of their Dentist's que :(.

Also the new NHS charges are more close to Private charges now for those that pay (69% of patients). More NHS patients will pay more NHS fees, but get a much worse service even than now.

It's a lose-lose situation that Government is hoping to partially prop-up with foreign personnel and telling people to stay away much longer from their Dentist, until they get pain. Isn't that how so many people ended up with toothache, abcesses and bad breath already?

No Dentists won't get those extra NHS fees either, like VAT it goes straight into government's pockets, even though it's supposed to be NHS and free.

Those Dentists that clung onto the spin that Govrnment were going to fix NHS Dentistry, must feel very betrayed, yet again. They will not stand around and watch all their training about prevention and personal patient care be sacrificed just because Government doesn't like Dentists or their regular patients.

No doubt Government and some who believe the positive spin that inevitably will be produced, will want to say it's all Dentists fault. We are the easy fall guys and girls for them to target and shift blame away from the real source :(.

Next it will be GP's going Private because their paperwork and targets also are not patient-centred and 20% all at once are due to retire in 2 years time.

Just going now to prepare my lifeboat to leave NHS "titanic" Dentistry before the supposed unsinkable thing is allowed to reach it's lowest depths.

No-one, especially regular patients, are likely to be well served by trying to cling onto it now in this state of deterioration.

Sad but true,

DownintheMouth

jinxsi

03-10-2005, 8:30 PM

For anyone who is intersted in the reasons dentists are falling over themselves to get out of the NHS, the British Dental Association has just published it response to the governments proposals for a new dental contract in April 2006. Most of us believe this new contract will be the end of NHS dentistry as we know it and the start of something much worse - and not just for us.

BDA1 (http://www.bda.org/advice/docs/BDA%20response%20to%20draft%20regs%20Sep%2005.pdf)
BDA2 (http://www.bda.org/about/docs/Patient_charges_response%20doc.pdf)

I have also created a page to keep up to date with whats happening, ** Personal link removed - Edited by Abuse Controller ** its links and personal opinion, click on <nHS dentistry - the new 2006 contract>

Regards
Simon

kevinbev

08-10-2005, 3:32 PM

Quite a bit in todays papers on NHS dentists (or the lack of). People queing most of the night in order to get registered as a NHS patient. Annoys me the fact that we pay extortionate taxes to fund the NHS and we get very little in return. Have been looking at various ways to pay for my families dental needs and not sure what the best way is to go about it yet. I`ve been told about Denplan but there website does not appear to give any costs, then there is healthcare plans like Sovereign Health Care where you claim back some of the costs. Nice to know on that on the Sovereign web site that the payments include "insurance premium tax". You would think that for health care plans the government would scrap this tax rather than squeeze every penny out of everyone.

Toothsmith

08-10-2005, 6:38 PM

Denplan website won't give any prices, because dentists set their own prices, and there are 5 different fee categories depending on your likely need.

It's only of relevance as well if your dentist does Denplan. There are several other practice based schemes. If your dentist has told you about Denplan he should have told you the cost to you as well.

P.S.

Just remember all the lovely, technically advanced bombs that your taxes pay for, and all those overbudget computer systems that never work.

You get plenty for your taxes! These little minor things like decent health care would just be an extravagant waste of resources.

teethrule

17-10-2005, 11:58 PM

i am a future dentist, and happened to find this post, and reading all these comments is worrying and upseting. Personally, i think it is awful how there is a lack of NHS dentists and have always felt that i wanted to do this... after reading this you can understand why dentists don't want to. and all the comments about dentists and how much bloody money they earn. you can't just do the job for the money, those who do will suffer and it might be a reason why dentists are mean't to have the highest suicide rate (don't quote me on that) as for the outgoings of a practice (around £1500 a month i think i read) ... scary....

People who moan about how much dentists earn... would you want to do it? would you like to train for 5 years...it is not an easy course. if you think it's money easily earnt.... why don't you go and do it?! It's not an easy job, not many people want to do it, i will have studyied basically 11 years of my life to get where i am eventually, but i really want to do it and on top of that i don't want to be worrying financially... when i've got patients to worry about and HUGE loans to pay off.

I do want to work for the NHS and i want to be respected, if the NHS service wasn't so abused i think dentists would want to work for the NHS (there are obviously the odd few of us, who really are in it for the money and do carry out poor treatment and so on... If i was on the interview panel at universities i could tell who they are and not let them in... well i reckon i could), you must get so much hassle if it causes you to want to go private. Can't understand why dentists can't do NHS and private...and those patients who do abuse the system and cost time and money... could be told not to or they will get "struck off" NHS care and have to pay private (acts as a deterant). Patients who make the effort with there teeth, do ring and cancel if there is a problem (rather than just not turn up) and so on can the have NHS treatment. All dentists should be made to see children.... if a child can't get to the dentist god help us. Dentists could then work privately aswell in doing cosmetic procedures, in order to keep higher earnings.

loopy lou

21-10-2005, 12:26 AM

Hi, ive been reading hrough this thread and have found it really helpful. I have been waiting for NHS dentist for 5 months, am on local pct list. Fingers crossed. Anyway i wondered if there are any expert dentists out there who could give me some advice about cosmetic dentistry? I have been wanting to get my upper front teeth sorted out for years. They are crooked, and i am very self conscious about them. I went for a consultation at a dentist in manchester and they quoted me £10,000 for 8 veneers at the front top, i obviously nearly had a heart attack on the spot. I then did some research on the net and found that going down to london would be a lot cheaper although a lot more hassle.About £5,000 from very reputable dentists, who do 'celebrities'. Anyway to cut a long story short, I have been waiting that long for a dentist i decided to book a one off scale and polish private apointment at a local dentist. While i was there i noticed they do cosmetic dentistry, i made an enquiry, and one of the receptionists there haed actually had some treatment done and showed me , i was really impressed! but they werent veneers they were 'composite resin' something. not sure of terminology. but as opposed to veneers they are less invasive, but dont last as long? what is the difference between the two? advantages and disadvantages? and how do i know a good cosmetic dentist from a not so good one.I just dont know what my course of action should be, and dont want to end up with false looking teeth on the cheap, I would rather fork out the cash and get a good result, but obviously if this dentist could do it for be at a good price i will be well chuffed. I have been wanting to have this done for so long now but am really scared of ending up wishing i hadnt bothered. thanks in advance for any advice anyone can give me x

Toothsmith

21-10-2005, 12:29 PM

I would avoid places who say they do 'celebrities'. If they really did top 'A' listers they wouldn't need to advertise! Perhaps Chris Biggins once had a clean & polish there!!

Unless you are a 'top' movie star whose smile will be shot in close up and each tooth will be 5ft long when seen on a movie screen, I would think spnding a fortune on each veneer is a bit OTT.

For an average person, just wanting an improvement, Composite resin veneers done by a decent 'high street' dentist who has time to spend on them (I.e. not a waiting room full of patients he has to get through in order to make a living on the NHS) will be an ideal solution. It is also very gentle to your own teeth, and although it will need redoing every so often, it will not damage the teeth in the process, then if you ever win the lottery you can still have the £10000 movie star veneers!

If you are happy with the other aspects of the practice you went to visit when you saw the composite veneers, I would go there. I would also scrub your name off the NHS waiting list and use that place for all your treatment. It may be a bit dearer, but you only have one set of teeth, and you should find somewhere to look after them. Not somewhere cheap.

loopy lou

21-10-2005, 12:55 PM

OOOOOH im so excited that i got a reply! I have been agonising about this for ages. thankyou so much, so how often will i have to get them redone? Actually this also factors in in reference to getting veneers. As i understand it, once you have veneers, because they actually take a bit off your tooth you always have to have them done again when they start to fail. With the composite resin veneers you can have them removed and they hvnt damaged your teeth. So when im 70 and am no longer so worried about my appearance(I plan on being a fat happy granny) ino longer have to keep up with the maintenance. But I also understand that the composite resin veneers dont last as long as the porcelain ones. And while im on the subject of dentistry what are peoples opinions about mercury fillings? should i just dismiss all the horror stories as scaremongering or are they dangerous? I ask more for my 11 year old daughter, who unfortunately has had to have one filling about 2 years ago(we had a well meaning indulgent childminder who unbeknowst to us was feeding her sweets and fizzy pop before she went to school!I was heartbroken as ive been fanatical about her teeth)once again, thanks toothsmith you really have put my mind at rest and now i feel soo excited about getting my teeth done at last!

Toothsmith

21-10-2005, 3:14 PM

I can't say how often they will need to be redone. That depends on so many factors. But I would say that if you smoke, don't bother getting it done! They won't last very long at all. It's also not much good if you bite your nails. They will chip off vey quickly if you do that.

Your dentist should go through all this with you though. Also, it's not suitable for everybody, so don't get your hopes up until you've seen the dentist.

Amalgam fillings are no more dangerous than any other fillings. Even the white stuff has nasty chemicals in it - that includes the stuff used for your resin veneers!!!. It's just that they don't make the news so much! We don't have a filling material that contains only chemicals proved to be harmless in any concentration in all situations. But then I doubt there are many products in your kitchen cupboard that you could say were safe in that respect too!

As for kids, I tend not to use amalgam whenever possible, as I feel the white materials mean I can fix the tooth with a smaller hole. This is not strictly allowed on the NHS though, and it's only because the rest of the practice is private that I can afford to do that for the kids. Come the new dental contract in April 06 and this will be banned, this is why I am privatising kids as well at the moment. I'm not prepred to do old fashioned dentistry just to make it fit a socialist ideal!

silvercar

21-10-2005, 5:47 PM

Amalgam contains mercury - a known poison. Also with amalgam fillings, decay can occur between the filling and the tooth: this is something much less likely to occur with white fillings.

Ask dentists whether amalgam is safe and they will not be generally not be drawn, but talk about the benefits of looking after your teeth and gums. Ask neurologists about mercury and you are advised to stay well clear!

I told my dentist that I didn't want any amalgam fillings. He thought I was being over sensitive on the subject but is quite happy to provide white fillings in situations where he feels an amalgam will do the job but I want to avoid mercury. We agree to disagree, but it doesn't affect the treatment I get (I hope!).

Toothsmith

21-10-2005, 8:47 PM

Amalgam contains mercury - a known poison.

They all come out of the woodwork now!!

YES Amalgam contains mercury, it is a plot by the whole of the dental profession to POISON THE WORLD HAHAHAHAHA!

Trouble is, over the past 140 years that amalgam has been around, it has been put into the mouths of a fair percentage of the worlds population and death rates around the world continue to fall! We are not very good at wiping out humanity I'm afraid!

Composite filling contains phenol polymers and organic resins that you really wouldn't want to eat. This does not make such a good headline though, as BIS GMA is not as well known as mercury. Both are perfectly OK for the job of a filling material though

Also with amalgam fillings, decay can occur between the filling and the tooth: this is something much less likely to occur with white fillings.

This is sheer claptrap, and the opposite is true. White filling shrinks slightly on setting, which puts stress at it's edges which makes it far more likely to leak and for decay to start. This is not so much of a problem if the cavity has been designed for white filling in the first place as you can adapt the cavity to suit the material. It is much more of a problem when putting white filling into holes designed for amalgam though.

Ask dentists whether amalgam is safe and they will not be generally not be drawn.

Ask a patient what they mean by 'safe' and they generally haven't got a clue! Is amalgam 'safer' than coming to the dentist in a car? - yes. Is it safer than living under high voltage electricity cables? Most probably. Is it safer than any other filling material we have? - About the same. Is it safer than squirting underarm deodourant into your pits every day?- Yes. Is it safer than Smoking? - Definitly. Is it safer than living in a padded cell in an underground bunker with a purified air supply and a controlled, nutritionally balanced organic diet, prepard by someone else so you never face the dangers of a kitchen, no background radiation, and no electromagnetic sources (eg televisions) for 20 miles. - NO

Tell me what you mean by safe, Silvercar, and what level of risk you are prepared to take in your life, and I will tell you whether amalgam fits in with your lifestyle or not. However, as you have diced with death and had white fillings done, I would suggest that you are a bit of a risk taker really!

Ask neurologists about mercury and you are advised to stay well clear!

I'd agree with that.

Ask a chemist about sodium and they'd not recommend you to keep some in the cupboard. Ask about Chlorine and they would not want it in your house either. Combine them however, and you've got something quite safe to put on your chips!! (Safe apart from the kidney problems - but hey what is 'safe'?!) It's the same with amalgam. Mercury is combined with other metals into something far mor stable, and far less toxic than elemental mercury.

What about hydrogen and oxygen? The most explosive of gasses when in elemental form. Combine them, and we've got a life necessity. (Water for the non chemists)

I told my dentist that I didn't want any amalgam fillings. He thought I was being over sensitive on the subject but is quite happy to provide white fillings in situations where he feels an amalgam will do the job but I want to avoid mercury. We agree to disagree, but it doesn't affect the treatment I get (I hope!).

I'm sure he was. It can be a nice little earner. It is my bet that the whole MERCURY-POISON bit was invented by a dentist. When you think about it, who else has anything to gain by it apart from dentists? And the white filling manufacturers.

We have a good tooth filling material that, done well, can last for years and years. But it contains mercury. The general public have heard of this stuff, and know it's poisonous.

Prof X has invented a white filling material. It can look great, but doesn't last as long, so nobody apart from filmstars and popstars want it. It has a few nasty chemicals in it, but nobody's ever heard of them, and it's not caused anybody any harm when it was tested, so it's probably OK.

Here's an idea! Lets claim that amalgam is BAD for people! Set up a few internet sites, call them MERCURY fillings rather than silver fillings, Bob's your uncle! There are plenty of gullible people out there, and here's the best bit - dentists who say amalgam is just as safe as anything else will look to be in on some conspiracy, whereas those that say amalgam is really really bad and poisonous will be the good guys and make a shedload of money!

This however is supposed to be a moneysaving website. :rolleyes:

silvercar

22-10-2005, 2:15 PM

Composite filling contains phenol polymers and organic resins that you really wouldn't want to eat.

Nobody (deliberately) eats fillings, white or amalgam. Its the mercury vapours that you have no choice but to absorb, if you have amalgam fillings.

It can look great, but doesn't last as long, so nobody apart from filmstars and popstars want it.

Lots of people have white fillings. I don't see the queues of people asking for their fillings to be changed from white to amalgam. Why does the NHS refuse to fund white crowns for back teeth? Because they know people will pay for white crowns.

This however is supposed to be a moneysaving website. :rolleyes:

Saving money is good, but not at the expense of our health and the cheapest option is not always the best.

If you think there is a conspiracy between dentists and white filling manufacturers, the suggestion is that there are a hell of a lot of dentists engaged in dubious practices.

Toothsmith

22-10-2005, 4:27 PM

Just tell me what you think 'safe' is Silvercar?

Do you think white fillings are 'safe'?

What do you think amalgam fillings are more dangerous than?

silvercar

22-10-2005, 4:53 PM

Is anything safe? who knows.

If I have a cavity it needs filling (or leaving eventually needing the tooth removed). So I broadly have 2 options, amalgam or white filling.

I personally think white fillings are safer than amalgam. I may be wrong but I have to make a choice. Amalgam looks ugly and gives off mercury fumes or white stuff is full of goodness knows what but hopefully its inert. What would you do?

Toothsmith

22-10-2005, 5:20 PM

Depends on the size & position, but I'd have the most suitable material for the job, be it amalgam or composite. The last filling I needed was 4 years ago, and it was amalgam.

If I needed that same filling doing tomorrow, I would have ...........Amalgam!

If that same hole was in one of my childrens teeth I'd (smack myself round the head for feeding them too much sugar) and put in an amalgam.

As I see my children's teeth more often than I get my own looked at (occupational hazard - we forget to get our own teeth seen to!) I'd hope to catch that hole much earlier, and then I would put in a composite, and hope the artificial oestrogens in the material didn't turn him female :p

loopy lou

23-10-2005, 8:28 PM

thanks once again toothsmith you have put things in perspective for me at least. didnt mean to cause such controversy!

djohn2002uk

23-10-2005, 11:34 PM

thanks once again toothsmith you have put things in perspective for me at least. didnt mean to cause such controversy!

Don't think you caused the controversy. Seems to me one persons opinions caused that. The rest of the thread was very enlightening.

Sofa_Sogood

24-10-2005, 9:53 PM

http://www.thisishull.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=136525&command=displayContent&sourceNode=136235&contentPK=13368991

(Can a BG shorten this link if necessary please? T.I.A.)

Toothsmith

28-11-2005, 6:51 PM

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4471528.stm) Website today

shays_mum

28-11-2005, 6:57 PM

Anyway, i would try going through my local yellow pages/newspaper to see if any dentists are taking on any NHS patients, worked for me. Also, i would repost in 'my local moneysavers' as there might be somebody in your local area who could point you in the right direction. Hope this helps, goodluck :)

Voyager2002

29-11-2005, 6:01 PM

Hi can someone clarify something for me.

Is a dentist not obliged to take on children on the NHS.

Ours has gone private so we don't go anywhere at the minute as we can't afford and as a result my son is not registered and nowhere wants to take him on.

Alas, no.

Here in Exeter I cannot find a dentist willing to treat my son (unless I also enrol as a private patient). The nearest dentist that would accept him is more than 20 miles away.

What I do not understand is why these private dentists can get away with it. Such behaviour should be rewarded by expulsion from the golf club, dog-pooh through the letter-box, slashed tyres and acid burns on their fancy cars ... Instead the community just accepts it and treats them as valued customers.

Toothsmith

29-11-2005, 7:17 PM

And it's attitudes like that that from people too pig ignorant to understand the real issues that has allowed the government to get away with dismantling parts of the NHS.

frostyspice

30-11-2005, 2:16 PM

Toothsmith - well done on continuing to attempt to explain the situation.

The trouble with people in this country is that they think their disposable income is to spend on stuff like Sunny Delight, Coke, ready meals, TVs in their kids' bedrooms, DVDs, video games and other crap. They think the boring stuff like dental healthcare and prescription charges should be paid for by the State. But do they want to pay the taxes necessary to fund the NHS? Do they hell. When will the British accept that our basic rate of tax is LOW!!! Go to Scandinavia, look at the fantastic standard of living, and then find out how much tax they pay!

Seems to me it's these people who are the greedy ones, not the dentists.

Sithicus

23-01-2006, 1:23 AM

<How much is a cheap flight to Poland anyone?>

I'd wait if I were you - all their dentists are supposedly coming here!! :)

Not all - mostly young and ambitious ones :D

pennies2pounds

23-01-2006, 9:34 AM

Lol just checked in my area and guess what ! NOT accepting any NEW NHS patients for treatment came up on every one !! . Good job I already have one ;)

Tajak1000

28-01-2006, 12:33 PM

Hi

For the second time in as many years my current NHS dentist is going private.
Anyone know how to search for a NHS dentist on the net or even any advice on a NHS dentist in Chester, Cheshire?

Allan

You now have about as much chance of finding a new NHS dentist who will take you on as you do of finding an effective chocolate fire guard.

The New Contract, to be introduced in April, will not only force a large proportion of NHS dentists to go private, there will be no incentive for a practice to take on someone new. Practices will be paid a fixed amount of money to look after a fixed number of patients, specifically those that have been attending that practice on a regular basis. After April, so long as a dentist meets his targets, there will be no call for him to see new patients. My Primary Care Trust actually stated that I should not be seeing new people...... although whether I will stay in the NHS is now in doubt because the targets they are wanting to impose on me are unnacceptable.

And don't think building a new dental hospital will help. I wanted to bring a new dentist into my practice and take a load of new people on. The PRimary Care Trust said that if I did that it would have to come out of the money I was already being paid as they had no money for growth.

They have capped the dental budget at the present based on the number of dentists doing NHS dentistry now. THe government have also said they will only increase the fixed dental budget in line with inflation. So how are all these new dentists going to get paid............. the answer is they will simply be replacing the ever increasing numbers of dentists who are leaving on mass. Thousands of experienced, veteran NHS dentists will be replaced by cheaper, inexperienced new graduates and foreign dentists. Where the hell is the sense in that?

Tajak1000

28-01-2006, 1:22 PM

My rough costings include the cost of salaries of receptionists and dental nurses. I reiterate - does anyone know a poor dentist? The ones I know live in very expensive houses, take min of 3 holidays per year and have luxury cars. They do not pretend they have a poor standard of living.

I fully understand that graduates are not obliged to enter state service. It costs (per House of Commons response to MP question) an average of £140,000 over 5 years to train a dentist. I agree with a previous poster that they should be committed to providing NHS dentistry for x number of years. From info available on the web the quoted cost of training a solicitor is £10,000 as part of the cost is funded by private practice which a graduate needs to enter to complete their qualifications.

Here follows a RANT

According to a recent poll, 20% of NHS practice owners are in financial difficulty, 5% are close to bancruptcy. THe official Inland Revenue figures state that the average Private dentist does not earn any more than the average NHS dentist. The Inland revenue claim that the average dentist (NHS or private) earns around £60-70K wheras most GP's are on close to £100K (as a result of their nes contract), so i am curious where you got your figures from.

And yes some dentists have a very high standard of living, why the hell shouldn't they. Perhaps you know someone else who has the knowledge and skill to cure your agonising toothache. Perhaps you know of a non dentist skilled in the arts of cosmetic dentistry that can totally change a persons smile and thus life for the better. Maybe your next door neighbour can use his dremel to fix that broken filling. Dentistry is a highly skilled job that only a select few are able to do. Because of this, it carries a higher wage packet. It can also be a very stressful job, especially when you take into account that you are performing surgery on people.

You say that dentists who qualify should be commited to working in the NHS. Despite the average dentist qualifying with £30K of debt, what about all the other graduates. Should Journalists be forced to work for the bbc. What about architects, social studies, plumbers, joiners, geography students, political science, etc etc. Should these people, part funded by the tax payer all be forced to work for HMG. Will you accept a rise in taxes to accomodate this? I actually agree that it is a good thing for newly qualified dentists to work in the NHS (as it presently stands) because they can gather a lot of experience quickly. I assume though that governemnt would be willing to pay off the student loans, and pay for the continuing professional development with tax payers money - which presently costs me about £8K a year. So £140K plus £30K plus £40K gives us a grand total of £210K taxpayers money over 10 years. How about accomodation grants etc. What about maternity pay, sick pay, holiday pay etc. Seeing as how they will be employees and not self employed contractors, this will all add to the bill. Ends up costing the tax payer much more (see below).

The money spent on training dentists is very quickly repaid to the state in the TAXES they pay. If you tie them in for 5 years, they will earn a lot less than new graduates presently, and therefor the taxes taken off them will be considerably lower. But this is irrelevant, because up until now most graduates DID work in the NHS for upto 5 years. I have been in for over 10, and only now am i considering leaving. Why? Because the new copntract is an absolute abomination, which will do nothing to improve the health of my patients or the nation. I run a preventive practice, and to accept the new contract, I will actually have to stop doing my prevention work and do more treatments if i were to meet the targets that are to be imposed on me. Target driven healthcare is unethical. The provision of healthcare should be based on need, not based on some penpushers calculations. I am sure my patients will really appreciate that, especially as the new charges imposed by HMG are higher than many of my private fees. The average person will pay MORE for their NHS dentistry under the new scheme.

Unfortunately, under the new contract, the Primary Care Trusts do not have any money to give jobs to all these new graduates. They only have enough money to fund services already available. Only by a dentist leaving the NHS can PCT's fund a new dentist into the area. All these new graduates may well be forced to enter private practice, because there won't be anywhere for them to work, like thousands of doctors who are currently seeking employment in thie country.

And I know you won't believe this, because I am after all just a greedy dentist. But it is not actually about the money, because the contract value being offered to me is very lucrative. it is about quality of life, quality of care and doing the best for my staff and patients. Going private would actually mean a pay cut for me, but I am willing to accept that should things proceede on their present course.

You say dentists should "live in the real world". Why? Why should we accept adverse working conditions? Do you think the Unions of this country would accept a 30% increase in the level of work their members have to achieve to get the same pay. Do you think Union members would sit idly by whilst they are forced to work to a system of rules that is detrmimental to their health? We are, and always have been SELF EMPLOYED CONTRACTORS who contracted out time out to the NHS. Many of us chose to do this despite the adverse affects on our health and out finances. Our staff, family and ultimately our patients suffered because of the gradual governemnt erosion of the NHS system. This new contract is the last straw. Even the Tories are against it. Labour have out Thatchered the conservatives yet again. Not even Norman Tebbit would have come up with this scheme.

Doesn't matter of course, because in 3 years, NHS dentistry will be reduced to access centres staffed by recently graduated, inexperienced and unhappy dentists who will gladly take your tooth out for you....... but do little else. You can blame the dentists if you like, but at the end of the day it is government who devised this system AGAINST the advice of the dental profession, even against the advice of their own advisers.

NHS dentistry RIP courtesy of HMG

PS: Nobody has a right to recieve dental care. You were not issued with a warranty card when you left the womb. If you think you were, may I recomend you try popping down to Tescos and demanding free food - see how far you can go.

Toothsmith

29-01-2006, 8:32 AM

From today's SUNDAY TELEGRAPH (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/29/ndent29.xml)

jinxsi

01-02-2006, 11:03 PM

Hi, just in case anyone is interested in DoH spin

Rosy Winterton on offering dentists £80.000 per year with £80.000 expenses.

Lies again. Dentists are not being offered this at all, they are being offered a sum based upon the gross turnover of their place of work between October 2004 and September 2005.

Rosy Winterton saying she knows dentists like the new way of working because so many signed up for the pilot schemes.

Lies again. The "unit of dental activity" (UDA) target scheme has not been piloted so no one knows whether they will like it or not. Most are seriously skeptical. They signed up to something totally different.

Rosy Winterton on the new contract being successful because so many dentists are signing up to it.

Lies again. Dentists have the option of signing up to the new contract or going totally private. "Success" only refers to the governments' bullying of the profession, dentists are signing up to the new contract because they have little option.

Discrepancies in government UDA figures

The government line is that dentists are being given the same money as they earned previously (spookily in this particular spin line not £80.000 plus £80.000 expenses) for 5% less workload. Reliable calculations from dentists have shown the new workload target is as much as 40% higher.

The new contract will encourage prevention and allow dentists more time with their patients

Absolute garbage. When the new NHS dentistry targets bite NHS dentists will have to tailor treatments to fit targets and there will be little time to carry out prevention. Please ask your MP how prevention is remunerated in the new contract. Zero UDA's and hence zero pounds is the answer.

cheers
jinxsi

Tajak1000

24-02-2006, 1:42 AM

They are therefore quite happy for 2000 patients each (multiply by 4 for the 4 dentists in the practice) to go without a dentist. Nice committed health professionals (not). Obviously they are just looking forward to the £168,000 per year they will each collect. If you consider 4 dentist in one practice that equals £672,000 per year. If they employ 2 receptionists and 4 nursers that will cost approx. £90,000. Premises rent and overheads say £15,000. That leaves £567,000 between 4 = £140k each per year. Not a bad living for a 2/3rd cut in workload.

If they are truely private it should be like seeing a private doctor. You make an appointment when you need to see one and pay the one off cost. As most check ups take less than 15 minutes the cost should be no more than £17 (based on £140k per year for 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year = £67 per hour).

Dentist discussion thread (http://forum.moneysavingexpert.com/forum/showthread.html?p=241519#post241519)

£15K for rent and overheads. Blimey, where can I buy this dental practice. I ruin a 2 surgery NHS practice, and these were my direct costs for the running of the business in the last tax year:

Wages: £40K
Materials: £12K
Lab bills £14K
Staff PAYE £7K
Accountant fees £4K
Bank loan (for practice which I own and maintain) £20K
Insurance £3K
Repair and renew £8K
Misc £20K

You cannot compare us to GP's. Their premesis are paid for them, as are their costs. Dentists are self employed contractors who own their own premesis and pay all their own costs. So as well as treating patients, they are also trying to run a business. Dental practices are very expensive places to run. Quality dentistry will now cost money, you just need to decide whether you are willing to pay for it.

And if you want to pay as you go, there are plenty of private dentists around who will do that for you. Denplan is not as widespread as people think.

SeriouslyStressed

01-03-2006, 5:10 AM

Lucky you ( anyone who HAS a dentist ( of any sort ) or is able to find one taking people.

Up here in Cumbria. there are NO DENTISTS ( private or NHS ) taking ANY PATIENTS!!! ( in a 70 mile radius )

My teeth are falling apart ( by that I mean most fillings I have, and I have many, have fallen out, broken etc.. which has resulted in cracked teeth, rot setting in.... ( where a filling once lived but is now exposed ) and a nasty looking diagonally ( for it's length on an amalgam post ) broken front crown, and a blackening front tooth ( had a filling in rear of it, but it came out.)
I could go on, but you get the idea, ( pictures freely available to all curious dentists, just ask and provide a contact point )

My mouth looks BL**dy awful, I have retreated completely socially, it's so embarrassing, and upsetting ( not to mention painful at times )..... and I can have NOTHING done about it. I can only get emergency ( i.e. extraction ) treatment if I'm in severe pain.

I have no job ( on incap long term ) and this is just the nail in the coffin lid of me never getting a decent job. I cant face anyone, mother does all my shopping and errands....it's truely pathetic and I know it.

I'm seriously stressed ( 13k debt, soon to be bankrupt ) and seriously depressed. I dont have a doctor anymore a she retired. It's difficult for me to speak, and eat.

I think I should set up a website. sponsor my mouth.co.uk......... and ask for £1 donations! ( still have the problem of no dentists to take the money though hmmm )

Mother says get em all pulled out and get dentures! ha! HOW? and with what?

no dentists! and anyways it'd still cost well over £300 for the extractions.

Dentistry in the UK is a shambles.
I fully understand WHY they are going private, they want to make a decent living, and provide decent quality services and the current Gov scheme, and soon to be new one, wont get them there y any stretch of the imagination.

I've resorted to self destistry in the recent past.... trying to glue back fillings that have fallen out, with superglue, (cyanoacrylate?) oops gives off cyanide gas. Expoxy resin does'nt work either, nor did my feeble attempt at gluing together my broken front crown with ceramics adhesive.... or many others......
Seems only genuine 3m ( o rother ) luting cement will stick back things in the mouth, but oh no, i'd have to using etching fluid, and have access to a decent UV lightsource! I had the mad idea that cold cast resin might do the trick but I've not bought any yet, and the setting times/saliva etc interaction would be a major problem. I'm not a dentist, so I cant buy the genuine supplies required anywhere ( not even over the net from america.. I tried )

This might seem off topic ( but it's related to the original post, and IS related to my debt free wannabe status. and it's a BIG HURDLE to me ever geting work to become a decent upstanding member of society ever again! )

Nobody would employ someone too embarrassed to open their mouths to speak, and I'm too withdrawn to speak anyways.

I'm up the creek without a paddle and my wee boat has a gaping hole in it ( as do my teeth ), and i've no tin to bail out.

My mouth is a ticking timebomb of PAIN.....( i know the feeling well )
and people in PAIN do extraordinarily stupid things to make the pain go away ( which scares me )

Oh i cant wait.... last time i nearly died, a litre of vodka ( hoping it'd numb the pain ) and 24 anadin extra ( over an 8 hour period )
It did'nt work by the way ( so dont try booze ).
All i ended up doing was getting a visit from an ambulance as I'd managed to phone them before passing out.